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Final Fantasy XIV: Heavensward |OT| Raiders of the Void Ark
- Thread starter Trojita
- Start date
I think that was also a consequence they considered. They killed two birds with one stone and I'm sure I would be up in arms about this too if I was a member of either demographic affected but I'm not.
I always hated crafted gear being a requirement to push content fast, crafters do need a place in the market but top level PvE play needs to come from PvE only. Same for top level play in any other category.
I just poked my head into the beta thread to look around. Shit's getting crazy in there, I feel bad for you all.
I dunno, there's a difference between not knowing the intricacies of a class's rotation and not knowing the job isn't 20-30% behind the other low DPS class. Reddit has actually rebounded pretty hard on MCH, so I have no idea where the remaining stigma comes from. It's not just that people don't understand how three GCDs into my opener I can screw up to the tune of a thousand lost damage fifteen seconds later, it's people assuming I'm rolling into raid on a job that would basically guarantee enrage on everything until massive overgear.
As a Summoner, I laugh at your idea of pushing buttons.
Carry on.
I feel like that's pretty much what the choice comes down to for most people right now, really. I still stand by the idea that Machinist is overall the far better put together class and their own personal DPS ceiling is higher. Wildfire's recurring damge vs Bard's reset will at least be interesting to think about as gear stats inflate again at least. They both still need SOME quality of life though? MCH to make it feel less jammed together and Bard to feel functional.
This is honestly what I'd say applies to all of three of the new jobs. All of their utility could use some tweaking. Just for Machinist though, Dismantle / Rend Mind separation still needs to be explained to me so I can figure out why the hell that even happened. I'm still just stuck on the idea that I have 2m E4E and Super Virus for defensive utility.
Edit:
Switching biases is pretty hard. Realistically, I imagine it's mostly people just ... never knew much in the first place? They just kind of kept that first negative read impression and it never really changed.
Also, people would solo tank Faust if that meant a better chance of beating enrage despite it not really being that high of a check. People blaming individual jobs on this sort of thing make me question though processes but eh, I guess everyone likes having a scapegoat.
Carry on.
I feel like that's pretty much what the choice comes down to for most people right now, really. I still stand by the idea that Machinist is overall the far better put together class and their own personal DPS ceiling is higher. Wildfire's recurring damge vs Bard's reset will at least be interesting to think about as gear stats inflate again at least. They both still need SOME quality of life though? MCH to make it feel less jammed together and Bard to feel functional.
This is honestly what I'd say applies to all of three of the new jobs. All of their utility could use some tweaking. Just for Machinist though, Dismantle / Rend Mind separation still needs to be explained to me so I can figure out why the hell that even happened. I'm still just stuck on the idea that I have 2m E4E and Super Virus for defensive utility.
Edit:
Switching biases is pretty hard. Realistically, I imagine it's mostly people just ... never knew much in the first place? They just kind of kept that first negative read impression and it never really changed.
Also, people would solo tank Faust if that meant a better chance of beating enrage despite it not really being that high of a check. People blaming individual jobs on this sort of thing make me question though processes but eh, I guess everyone likes having a scapegoat.
I feel bad, I see that Angary posts a lot of stuff about MCH and it looks like it's well written but much like Galen was saying about DRG stuff from someone else, this is very easy to tune out. So Angary posts are just filler until the next person posts.
Speaking of technical garbage, I asked this in FC last night but idk if I caught everyone who would be able to answer. This is my opener:
Blizz 3 > Thunder 1 > Sharp > Fire III > Enochian > Fire I > Raging and Ley > Fire IV x 3 > Firestarter proc > Swift and Convert > Fire IV x 3 > Blizz 3 > etc. etc.
Where do I use an int pot in there for maximum effect without feeling like my rotation is going to be late? I tried putting it in with raging and ley but I think I'm losing my astral fire stack just as the last fire IV is going off which is nerfing damage on my firestarter proc (which probably isn't the end of the world but I need perfection).
Speaking of technical garbage, I asked this in FC last night but idk if I caught everyone who would be able to answer. This is my opener:
Blizz 3 > Thunder 1 > Sharp > Fire III > Enochian > Fire I > Raging and Ley > Fire IV x 3 > Firestarter proc > Swift and Convert > Fire IV x 3 > Blizz 3 > etc. etc.
Where do I use an int pot in there for maximum effect without feeling like my rotation is going to be late? I tried putting it in with raging and ley but I think I'm losing my astral fire stack just as the last fire IV is going off which is nerfing damage on my firestarter proc (which probably isn't the end of the world but I need perfection).
My understanding of the opener is um ... Sharp+Ley on pull -> F3 + Eno -> F1 + PotRS. Since you're doing the B3 opener, I'd guess it's B3+Ley -> T1+Sharp -> F3+Eno -> F1+PotRS? You should be able to get at most around 6 hits in that potion (4x F4, Swift F4, FS'd F3) and an extra F4 on RS should be the most damage you can squeeze out of the buffs.
Not actually a BLM though so where's Makotoooooo
This is way harsh, man.
I don't really know the answer to this question but I'm glad we arrived at the same conclusion about opening with a Blizzard 3 'cause it felt really weird the first few times I did that.
This explains a lot. Too much laughing at the Deathflare button, not enough pushing the Deathflare button.
Definitely on the former, maybe on the latter. Skill cap, etc, I'm content with parity meaning I can keep playing it and not be actively holding things back.
Summoner is in a really weird spot right now--too much utility for the damage you get. On the bright side, if this is how they handle pariah jobs, MCH (and probably AST the way things are going) will rule 4.x.
You're scrolling past this without reading it, but: TL;DR: MCH is BRD Savage but with turrets and turrets are awesome.
It's practically essential to start fire rotation at full mp these days imo. Especially on opener or it can get awkward when you are 100-200 mp short for that last fire IV.
This is true, I could probably ley from the start to free up a click in my ogcd time later.
I mean, they have guns so that's pretty awesome. And that moogle gun is class.
Indeed. This was my thinking as well. Even that little chip for a Thunder can complicate matters.
Xux
Member
I'm a little off from 50 on MCH but that Mog Gun is legit. Might have to splurge if one pops up on the MB.
Also, one of the lower level PVP guns is just a straight up gun blade that shoots and I might actually have to try PVP for the first time. (The parrot coat is neat, too.)
Basically, Machinists feel like where SMN was pre-3.0? Where I had this extra utility but it was only neat since everyone has SCH and my damage was okay but it wasn't BLM/Melee ceiling. Now I'm possibly the only source of traited E4E/Virus in a group and capable of being top DPS not even as a cheese sort of thing. A1S I get to extra excel in utility since it's literally two identical bosses to use my stuff on so it's nice even with a SCH. SMN design guy should really go to everyone else's meetings and interject things.
I'd really just like the consolidation of Dismantle / Rend Mind to free up an option for a Defensive Cooldown (HEALING BULLET). I just want MCH to be able to shoot party members, think of the animations!
HylianScribe
Member
So in a nutshell, YoshiP and Co. were tired of seeing something meant to keep most the "hardcore" players occupied for a few months being slain in less than a week ... twice with SCoB and FCoB. The more recent Final Coil overcome by an oversight on T12 and the developers underestimating the potential gained from crafted gear melded with materia to achieve desired stats that bypassed the balances in place on loot gear that the raid content was designed around.
So as a result, they actually put the savage into Alex Savage for once, after EZ mode Alex made everyone go "lol savage" until they met Agent Fraust. Meanwhile the gods of raiding proceeded to bang out A1/A2 as expected, but then "lol gear check is real" A3 appeared and they complained about it. But lord savior crafting in part 2 of patch would be the answer, except it isn't the quick fix answer they thought, and thus it looks like, barring some exploit or ridiculous strategy, Alexander Savage will not be blown up in the span of a week as before, instead being more like First Coil where you had to actually gear up to beat turns and it took some time.
Unless I missed something and A3S was cleared by somebody finally made it longer than 3 mins into the fight?
This makes me very happy. And it will make me even happier if Relic 3.0 is the highest ivl in the game but is an ungodly grind the likes that hasn't been seen in this game before, something akin to the fabled shit I keep hearing about in FF XI. For once I'd like relic to be seen as something that takes more time and dedicating than even raiding, even if it doesn't mean clearing as difficult of content, because I'd like relic to mean more and be more special. Felt like everyone and their mom had a relic in 2.0, and it would be nice to make them a bit harder to obtain if they're going to be on par or better than the best weapon drop in raid content.
Is this true of later turns maybe? While I am hearing "WHM/SCH duo best for A1S" from those who cleared it, if the RNG goes your way can the card drawing potential of AST compensate for their lower DPS output by upping the rest of the raid dps? If anything, WHM are back to being the healing workhorses so far, while the other healer contributes DPS and support where necessary. I don't know, I kept hearing varying opinions on which healer combo would be optimal for savage, and maybe anything said so far or now will only hold true for a limited time (until X weeks when everyone's gear is better). Just like MCH is getting a lot of weird flack from "I LIKE TO COMPLAIN ABOUT CLASSES I DON'T PLAY" types, I feel like both tank combos and healing combos are getting a bit of that? The only serious thing I've seen is several groups who have yet to clear are now ditching DRK for a PLD/WAR combo on A1S, but again, in probably a few weeks with some better gear, that maybe won't hold true?
So as a result, they actually put the savage into Alex Savage for once, after EZ mode Alex made everyone go "lol savage" until they met Agent Fraust. Meanwhile the gods of raiding proceeded to bang out A1/A2 as expected, but then "lol gear check is real" A3 appeared and they complained about it. But lord savior crafting in part 2 of patch would be the answer, except it isn't the quick fix answer they thought, and thus it looks like, barring some exploit or ridiculous strategy, Alexander Savage will not be blown up in the span of a week as before, instead being more like First Coil where you had to actually gear up to beat turns and it took some time.
Unless I missed something and A3S was cleared by somebody finally made it longer than 3 mins into the fight?
This makes me very happy. And it will make me even happier if Relic 3.0 is the highest ivl in the game but is an ungodly grind the likes that hasn't been seen in this game before, something akin to the fabled shit I keep hearing about in FF XI. For once I'd like relic to be seen as something that takes more time and dedicating than even raiding, even if it doesn't mean clearing as difficult of content, because I'd like relic to mean more and be more special. Felt like everyone and their mom had a relic in 2.0, and it would be nice to make them a bit harder to obtain if they're going to be on par or better than the best weapon drop in raid content.
Is this true of later turns maybe? While I am hearing "WHM/SCH duo best for A1S" from those who cleared it, if the RNG goes your way can the card drawing potential of AST compensate for their lower DPS output by upping the rest of the raid dps? If anything, WHM are back to being the healing workhorses so far, while the other healer contributes DPS and support where necessary. I don't know, I kept hearing varying opinions on which healer combo would be optimal for savage, and maybe anything said so far or now will only hold true for a limited time (until X weeks when everyone's gear is better). Just like MCH is getting a lot of weird flack from "I LIKE TO COMPLAIN ABOUT CLASSES I DON'T PLAY" types, I feel like both tank combos and healing combos are getting a bit of that? The only serious thing I've seen is several groups who have yet to clear are now ditching DRK for a PLD/WAR combo on A1S, but again, in probably a few weeks with some better gear, that maybe won't hold true?
My rebuttal is basically
This.
If someone isn't gonna touch MCH for a while and people come out saying that it's shit, garbage, whatever and that "opinion" is commonplace, that's going to be an uninformed opinion of the class. Even when people double back on it and say it's amazing, that initial impression is still in a lot of people's heads. It takes time for the thought to sway one way or the other.
In the end just let your numbers and ability to clear dps checks without issue speak for itself. Also, even though someone may have objected, you still rolled it, parsed exactly where you needed to be (or over, or whatever i don't know. good enough?) and are making progress. It's disappointing that your preferred class is being railed against, but it shouldn't make too much of a difference. There's a reason there are a ton of classes in the game to play.
Please glamour the eso gun because it's ugly as shit.
edit:
Re: Korra-chan,
Relic was already a pain the ass and a decent grind. Don't underestimate people who are going to do the grind regardless of how steep it is. Even with the Zodiac grind not even being that bad, I still received replies that other people "had a life" as their excuse for not doing relic. I can't imagine what would happen if the grind/dedication was real.
What's wrong with you?
Honestly? I envy the combat rez more than anything. Damage reduction stuff is nice, but being able to get someone back on their feet without interrupting the actual healing going on is huge. Heavensward-era Summoner is in a good spot, but it makes most of the justifications for Bard and MCH being locked in the DPS basement come across as incredibly hollow since they knowingly gave Summoner a giant DPS potential increase without touching their support stuff.
I'd like them to be the same button so I stop hitting the wrong one, TBH. Not like anyone notices.
And you should really rethink giving me the ability to shoot party members. Would be too busy getting revenge to attack enemies.
We are on the same path as every MMO ever btw. This is the patch where they went all in on the raid and are now seeing some push back from the community. The next Alex or the one after will be the one where they adjust things back because of some of the suggestions and complaints and they end up screwing it up and making a set of raid bosses way too easy leading to people complaining about that. They will then find the happy medium at 4.0.
Please note, I think what is happening with 3.0 is perfect and I want it to stay like this, MMOs have to adjust though
As for relic, I wouldn't hold your breath for a FFXI type grind. It won't be as easy as original 2.0 relics, probably, but I wouldn't expect anything harder than original light grind.
That would be terrible. Really, really terrible. The great thing about the Relic weapon is that everyone can get a great equipment, not only the people that do the hardest content in the game, that are the raids. There's absolutely no reason to create equipment that's harder to get than the things you get on the end game raid, as less than 5% of the players get those weapons. You would piss off the hardcore raiders and the not-insane grinders.
And here's the flipside: Why does everyone need great equipment? If they aren't doing savage alex (in this case) then what is the equipment for?
Take it, it's 2.7k MP and I never notice that I can't actually afford it when I say I'm rezzing someone and then I blow my Swiftcast on a Ruin 2 /o\
This premium on resource regeneration is absolutely baffling to me. I understand when it's in use, sure okay, but penalizing the idea of having it is weird when every other form of utility is a bonus.
Probably worth it.
The worst part is that people would be pissed off and still do it anyway.
But let's be real, all of this is worthless trash gameplay simulacra. Look at crafters. They gave them a self-regurgitating mess of a gameplay where they trade in items people would actually use by hundreds to get chances at getting rare items. Everything is turned into timegated busywork with results that have a market so small and so timed you might wonder if there's even a point to it at all. Are they gonna use "crafted gear is for catchup!" excuse again, may I ask?
Same with the relic. We've seen the Zodiac. Most of us have even done it. But we perfectly realize the limit of usefulness on this thing. That memory is still fresh with many. If they make the new relic a tremendous, highly timegated high stakes grind like red scrips, I think there'll be at least some blow. What happened to "Game must be fun or it shouldn't be implemented"? Is powergaming bullshit literally the best you can do? Maybe if you feel you lack the manpower to create enough meaningful content, you deserve to take the subscription hit. Take that to your superiors Yoshida, don't go to Tanaka for ideas.
There's been too many effort-for-the-sake-of-effort baits in 2.x, and none of them were fun or fulfilling, you don't need to double down on those. Come up with things that are new.
Additionally, support-is-a-reason-for-gimping is a fallacy. Practically every class has some support abilities built in. What about DRG's too good to be true Battle Litany? What about Mantra? Storm's Path+Eye? Goad? These are all support abilities offered by respective classes at no extra cost. "You can help out others so we'll reduce your DPS/healing capabilities!" might've sounded reasonable if it wasn't selective.
But let's be real, all of this is worthless trash gameplay simulacra. Look at crafters. They gave them a self-regurgitating mess of a gameplay where they trade in items people would actually use by hundreds to get chances at getting rare items. Everything is turned into timegated busywork with results that have a market so small and so timed you might wonder if there's even a point to it at all. Are they gonna use "crafted gear is for catchup!" excuse again, may I ask?
Same with the relic. We've seen the Zodiac. Most of us have even done it. But we perfectly realize the limit of usefulness on this thing. That memory is still fresh with many. If they make the new relic a tremendous, highly timegated high stakes grind like red scrips, I think there'll be at least some blow. What happened to "Game must be fun or it shouldn't be implemented"? Is powergaming bullshit literally the best you can do? Maybe if you feel you lack the manpower to create enough meaningful content, you deserve to take the subscription hit. Take that to your superiors Yoshida, don't go to Tanaka for ideas.
There's been too many effort-for-the-sake-of-effort baits in 2.x, and none of them were fun or fulfilling, you don't need to double down on those. Come up with things that are new.
Additionally, support-is-a-reason-for-gimping is a fallacy. Practically every class has some support abilities built in. What about DRG's too good to be true Battle Litany? What about Mantra? Storm's Path+Eye? Goad? These are all support abilities offered by respective classes at no extra cost. "You can help out others so we'll reduce your DPS/healing capabilities!" might've sounded reasonable if it wasn't selective.
HylianScribe
Member
You can always have babby mode relic...the underpowered version that's 10 ilvls lower. Make it a bit easier to get, but powering it up during each phase would require the insane stuff I was talking about. Like then you got your base relic at ivl 80, but you could immediately during that same patch upgrade it to Zenith (i90) with 3 tome mats grinded out from dungeons. Except make those mats really hard to get or something. So imagine if in each relic phase since then, doing what we did only powered it up half-way, so instead of i100 animus, it was i95 with potential to be i100 with the "hard grind" part. Novus would be i105/i110, and so on until Zeta, where you could have i130 version or i135. Except I would make the ilvl gap 10 levels instead of 5 to make it more significant.
What if you could only dye the powered up version...oh man...the salt...
If I knew what Zeta was going to look like from the very start, and you told me "this is going to take longer to get than everything else to get by quite a bit", I probably would have taking the bait. Nirvana Zeta is a god amongst children when it comes to WHM staffs. Everything else I've seen in 3.0 so far is trash compared to it. Especially the stupid Bayonetta Esoteric one and the dumbass Halo/Stargate Godrian one.
I'm not really searching for validation in my class selection here; I had some initial anxiety about how it would work out in actual content and the answer was... Perfectly fine. I was initially reflecting on how well it actually worked and how bizarrely widespread baseless bias is on a more general level; then it turned into a discussion of how people don't understand the minutiae of other classes which while true is beside the point.
my initial thing was more "I tried this thing people are kind of skeptical about and it went fine, all the fear is overrated, it works." Just with more words because I like words. Compared to, say, AST where a number of people are hitting throughput walls because of how the class was designed and being forced to fall back to the 2.x healing classes.
Damage hypercharge not draining MP means I sit at full MP a ton. I would be perfectly happy with a turret res where my turret spent ~5 seconds channeling a res in exchange for all of my MP. I'm not using it!
irfaanator
Banned
not gonna lie I also skip over all these mcn/brd posts so I can just have angary teach me the rotation later. Sorry angary
Alkalurops for life. Alkalurops 2 is a considerable alternative.
Time > skill, apparently.
I just blame Reddit and the people who read Reddit.
I'm pretty sure I saw that on Reddit earlier.
I still stand by my pre-expansion thoughts that SCH+AST is a working combination that WHM+AST doesn't touch despite everything about the classes currently implemented seems to say otherwise (aka, MND buff tied to WHM, Noct being a poor replacement for SCH shields and can't even supplement SCH shields).
Alternatively, SCH is really good right now and nothing else compares. I can also just buy that.
Because they still do the less harder content, like Crystal Tower and Extreme Primals. These high level weapons really help people to clear this content. And, for a lot of people, the reason they upgrade their equipment is to look cool. And Relic Weapon looks cool.
But then... what's the point? Hardcore raiders want their hardcore raiding weapons, that are the best one when they're released. Hardcore grinders get their Relic Weapon (come on, the grind is already pretty big for the current Relics). They're in no way "babby" mode. The grind to get the relic on XI was insane, it should never be done again. I think a lot of us don't want this game to become as grindy as older Korean MMOs.
I remember playing Ragnarok Online a LONG time ago. There was the Mjolnir hammer that needed you to get 12 extremely rare drops from different castles in the game that needed to be captured in the server wide PVP event that ocurred from time to time. I definitely don't want this kind of stuff in FFXIV.
It's more that SCH is really strong right now and their shielding is pretty much a must for the double prey mechanic + tank buster sequence.
Trust me, you don't want that lol
Also, I think they dropped the ball with the new crafting/gathering stuff, but w/e
No, Korra is crazy, he does want that. But yeah, the rest of us don't.
He probably want that because he doesn't even know what was getting a relic in XI lol (talking pre major FFXI nerfs).
Eh. I don't heal the fight but I don't see where this is relevant? The tank buster doesn't need shields at this HP level (+ two targets aren't both getting shielded anyway) unless the tank cooldown rotation is off (DRK/WAR can basically take over half of the damage out of the equation every time). Prey is pretty much Earthshaker timing so it's about when to stop healing the targets rather than anything else.
I think most of it is just that Noct is pretty awful if treated as a SCH replacement.
Oh man, I didn't see this part.
If this is a real thing, I hope it was mostly done with people telling them it's a great idea while pointing and laughing at them.
HylianScribe
Member
I don't think their shielding is a must for double prey? I don't know, it does seem a bit hectic finally doing it myself, but honestly double prey to me feels somewhat similar to healing the Earth Shaker sequence in final phase of T13. You have roughly the same time for damage hitting two targets that needs to be cured through, and then both tanks (instead of just MT) need to be healed/get mitigation immediately after, just before the big tank buster. So assigned healers should get the job done, right?
Also if you have AST or WHM, popping Lightspeed or PoM during 1st/3rd double prey would be very helpful I think (PoM won't be back up in time for 2nd double prey, not sure about Lightspeed). Actually, it's what I started doing in our final few attempts last night. I kind of want to go in with an AST to see the difference than running with a SCH. Also can't wait to go in when our SCH isn't playing on a bad machine with latency problems.
Basically this is what I was getting at above.
Yea, it is a real thing I've seen said a few times now. However, I've seen groups clear on stream with DRK, so going to assume maybe it's just preference/different philosophy at this point versus one actually being clearly superior than the other? Kind of what I was referencing above that the tank combo debate is clearly going on but I'm not putting too much stake into any of it this early and after seeing groups clear with DRK, PLD, and WAR in their makeup.
All of the AST design money went into their (spectacular amazing gorgeous fantastic) animations. They couldn't afford to pay anyone to test out healer combinations.
AST is fun and fine in pretty much all pre-Savage stuff, but it seems telling that a lot of (actual) healers flip back to the old classes when it's srsbsns healing time. It doesn't seem to be harder for the same result; it's more complicated for a result that's often inferior because of the tools they were given. It's better now, but the changes didn't fully address everything.
AST is fun and fine in pretty much all pre-Savage stuff, but it seems telling that a lot of (actual) healers flip back to the old classes when it's srsbsns healing time. It doesn't seem to be harder for the same result; it's more complicated for a result that's often inferior because of the tools they were given. It's better now, but the changes didn't fully address everything.
Even without it not reducing GCD, it does get you ahead by a GCD due to the lack of a cast time. Whether or not being "ahead" translates to anything is another thing, really, since you tend to not spam non-stop.
That can easily change with some deals.
I can quick synthesis the materials you need for turn ins. If you can't HQ the turn in items with NQ materials, we can work something out for crafting gear upgrades.
I knew you'd bite if I casted the line (I should level fisher). I'm a level 60 miner with weekly caps that are all yours if you do me right. I'll message you when I'm on tonight.
HylianScribe
Member
I only speculated if people aren't using it then to maybe try it out to see if it helps? I haven't heard of anyone mention it yet so was just throwing it out there, so don't jump on me if it's a bad idea. I still don't know AST very well.
However, I can say that popping PoM during double prey easily makes healing through the it (ie healing both prey targets, not just one) and tank buster much easier on me. However, it will not be back up in time for 2nd double prey, so you need to have something else worked out then.
Rose of Eternity
Banned
So...... what are the required healing cross class levels/abilities... I think I might be so bored of tanking at this point that it's take a break from the game or go healing. I'm contemplating just doing AST because of how much of a big deal the 30 level head start is.
SliceSabre
Banned
Swiftcast, Protect, Stoneskin, Cleric Stance, Aero/Surecast(debatable)
It is once in a blue moon I or any other healer I see use Surecast.