• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Final Fantasy XIV: Heavensward |OT| Raiders of the Void Ark

iammeiam

Member
When are you going to give up the MCH life and return to your true bardly calling? Stop tinkering with your machines and come home.

When I can job change to Bard and not have it feel like I'm playing Machinist after suffering a severe head injury.

Bard has some strengths song-wise, but they tend to be big macro things (BV's longer doubling on a forever cooldown, Foe Req in general); the strength and weakness of MCH is its obsession with little weird fiddly bits that do things you don't expect.

It's mostly that I worry people really do think of MCH Promotion as a 1:1 swap for Bard songs, and are missing out on some of the weird things you can do (the moment I realized I could stop my turret from accidentally killing a thing early by just forcing it into regen mode I felt so dumb. Nuance!)

Yeah, he complains about Wanderer's Minuet so he uses Gauss Barrel instead.

Fiddly bits. I refused to give anyone a full opinion on MCH until I had GB unlocked specifically because I was expecting another Minuet and was pretty shocked by it working out as well as it did. GB is a designed job system. Minuet is what happens when you copy paste caster stance and forget to copy paste the toolkit that goes with it.
 

Valor

Member
When I can job change to... fiddly bits... !)

Fiddly bits.
I just like teasing you, but I'm sure you know that. I mean, I feel the GB versus WM debate has been beaten to death so instead of adding the same opinions in a different manner of phrasing just to increase my post count (and therefore my inherent worth on the internet) I'll just say that I definitely agree that GB is way less clunky than WM is.
 

scy

Member
What are these mysterious Bard pro's to songs? I've spent the better part of this hour trying to figure it out. Being serious here. It's a strictly worse scenario of how it treats player-side buffs. The only thing I can think of is giving up Bishop AoE is potentially a bigger DPS hit?
 
I've started leveling Rogue because I think ninjas are cool.

What the hell is wrong with me!? Leveling dps takes forever but the Ninja class has always been cool in my opinion.
 

EndcatOmega

Unconfirmed Member
What are these mysterious Bard pro's to songs? I've spent the better part of this hour trying to figure it out. Being serious here. It's a strictly worse scenario of how it treats player-side buffs. The only thing I can think of is giving up Bishop AoE is potentially a bigger DPS hit?

You are not distracted by a pulsing light.
 

Xion_Stellar

People should stop referencing data that makes me feel uncomfortable because games get ported to platforms I don't like
The only people happy with end game Bards are the developers.
The unfortunate truth.

My Bard is still my Main Job and I intend to still use him BUT I'm NOT a happy camper about using Wanderer's Minuet.
 

iammeiam

Member
What are these mysterious Bard pro's to songs? I've spent the better part of this hour trying to figure it out. Being serious here. It's a strictly worse scenario of how it treats player-side buffs. The only thing I can think of is giving up Bishop AoE is potentially a bigger DPS hit?

BV is better disaster recovery than Hypercharge if the bard has MP to sustain through the full 30 seconds, both because it flat lasts longer and you can swap songs without losing BV time (Hypercharge sticks to the turret, so going MP to TP regen means you lose he doubling effect.)

Foe Req not having a full-effect MCH equivalent really sort of counts? Right now in A2S it wins because Rook Hypercharge vuln is just straight bugged, but if they fix it I think BRD vs MCH there goes back to debatable.

Losing Bishop AOE could potentially be a bigger hit but is pretty situational and outside of A2S you're probably not having Bishop actually AOE in anything tough enough to need mana song.

I still think MCH is stronger overall for flexibility, but Bard does have a couple of things maybe.
 

scy

Member
Yeah, you covered the BV one earlier and Foe's is a separate thing entirely. I probably should have listed them anyway though, oops. Battle Voice letting you swap around songs is a thing I didn't think of though. I was just thinking primarily of this line:

also if you really want to discuss songs/turrets there are positives and negatives to both classes in terms of what is impacted when they begin utility mode.

Buff interaction at this point is strictly worse? At best you can burn all buffs/cooldowns and snapshot DoTs going into the regen but it's still at best 5 ticks of -15% (+the GCD loss outright at the start) and things are starting to come back. I'm a little hard pressed at finding a thing here for that beginning utility mode bit.

The only thing I can think of is outright potency loss from Machinist seems higher (but then it's also MP not on Foe's so the math gets really really weird)? But, in exchange, you do get to do quick toggles more often so any few seconds can be turned into a few ticks with no damage loss since every fight has brief gap. Two ticks isn't much but over the course of a few jumps it really does add up. This really just goes back and reinforces the whole flexibility angle, though.
 
To cap weekly Esoterics just do your daily Expert Roulette 5 times/days

To farm Law just farm the Neverreap and The Fractal Continuum dungeons.

If you go with this it takes 10 weeks to fully gear up left side.

O29JcVX.png
Appreciate it amigos.
 

iammeiam

Member
Just imagine turrets being one shot by jagd dolls.

Been there, done that, stopped sticking my turret in the cleave and it stopped happening.

There is a tank positioning learning curve, I guess, but it's irrelevant for the regen stuff and as long as your tanks aren't spinning cleaves around takes like... One to two losses. Still occasionally happens if I'm being lazy but me being lazy isn't my turret buddy's fault.
 

Xion_Stellar

People should stop referencing data that makes me feel uncomfortable because games get ported to platforms I don't like
As a healer I prefer the MCH's MP skill because the turret is in one spot whereas I have to be aware of the movements of the Bard.
It's backwards for me as a Bard I move towards the Healer before I use Mage's Ballad and I will proactively use it without being asked (Usually if I see a Healers MP drop below 50%).

Of course once they implement the viewable TP bars for the other Party Members I will start using Army's Paeon without being asked too.
 

Kagari

Crystal Bearer
Been there, done that, stopped sticking my turret in the cleave and it stopped happening.

There is a tank positioning learning curve, I guess, but it's irrelevant for the regen stuff and as long as your tanks aren't spinning cleaves around takes like... One to two losses. Still occasionally happens if I'm being lazy but me being lazy isn't my turret buddy's fault.

It was more of a poke at people standing near Garuda/Eos last night and getting them blow'd up lol.
 
Sounds like fun will be had at gamescom

Challenge Roulette sounds like a blast:
Can you clear every fight in Heavensward in your sleep? Then our Challenge Roulette would be perfect for you! Spin the wheel of fortune and play with a random handicap in a random fight! We’re not going to tell you which, but you better be ready for some crazy stuff! If you and your group survive this unique challenge you will receive a Battle Master t-shirt!
 

iammeiam

Member
Backtracking because I can.
Buff interaction at this point is strictly worse? At best you can burn all buffs/cooldowns and snapshot DoTs going into the regen but it's still at best 5 ticks of -15% (+the GCD loss outright at the start) and things are starting to come back. I'm a little hard pressed at finding a thing here for that beginning utility mode bit.

I can think of a few weird edge cases, I guess. Bard utility mode will always be based on the Bard's damage, so if you're mini'd in A1S or in the past and doing Bluefire in T12, or maybe some mechanic in A3S or A4S with damage down, singing there hits you for less than a Machinist sacrificing their turret (since I don't think either debuff passes to the turret itself, so the turret would still be 15%ish of original potency.)

There's also some weird interaction I think between MCH peak damage and Hypercharge. In damage mode, Hypercharge doubles turret potency and applies the 5% vuln debuff matching the damage type of the turret. Using Hypercharge on regen stuff costs you turret burst, which is kind of unfortunate, but isn't part of base regen. A bard never has to choose between BV for their own damage or BV for utility, I guess?

The only thing I can think of is outright potency loss from Machinist seems higher (but then it's also MP not on Foe's so the math gets really really weird)? But, in exchange, you do get to do quick toggles more often so any few seconds can be turned into a few ticks with no damage loss since every fight has brief gap. Two ticks isn't much but over the course of a few jumps it really does add up. This really just goes back and reinforces the whole flexibility angle, though.

The quick toggle is potentially misleading. In most fights where Ballad is a thing, I'm using Rook. Rook can't MP regen, so swapping is two-step: GCD, place bishop, GCD, promotion. Swapping back is just placing Rook, though, since Promotion falls off on its own. Then again, "most fights where Ballad is a thing" right now is Savage, and in A1S I just place and promote during jumps and A2S is Bishop's time to shine.

Although, thinking about it? It's 20 potency difference between Rook and Bishop on single-target. Arguably I could just eat the 20 potency for a stretch and toggle MP on/off. Hmmm.
 

Valor

Member
When I said that I was really weighing the true benefits of turrets versus songs. What Angary said is very true, that with Hypercharge and turret placement you can get MP back super quick. The downside to that is that you're blowing one of your best offensive cooldowns on a defensive side of thing.

The equivalent is Battle Voice, which is always a benefit whenever it is popped. Be it for extra Foe's damage off the bat or increase mana/tp recovery for the party. The downside is that BV doesn't affect the bard who sings it. That's not always a downside. In the niche scenario where I just get rezzed, have no mp, and healer is out of mp as well, yeah, battle voice isn't gonna help since you'll end up losing about half of the duration of the buff or something because you only have like MAYBE ten ticks of MP regen before you're OoM. In basically every other scenario that exists Bard has it better than Machinist when it comes to spot MP regen.

Even when Angary mentioned that you can drop a turret and Promote/hypercharge during a burn phase to get MP back, it's still, in my opinion, way worse than Bard throwing up a single GCD.5 to get ballad ticking for as long as you need it to. You're impacting your dps, sure, but you also aren't burning an cooldown in a defensive manner where you may not need the full duration of it. If you turn promotion off during single target burn phase you still now need to swap your turret and lose your Hypercharge. Bard just shuts off the song and you're back at full damage potential.

Basically, the switching is incredibly faster and much more auto pilot than turret mana/tp recovery. Foe Requiem also lasts far longer than Hypercharge Bishop turret does and you have it up far more often than every two minutes.

Turrets are also usually counter intuitive for the situation at hand in regards to their Promotion abilities. Typically you will have Rook up to deal with a single target situation, but if you need MP you need to swap to Bishop and promote it. Regardless of how easy and seamless this can be, it's still two button presses between gcds to activate. When MP regen is done you now need to recall Bishop and toss Rook back out. Only one action, sure, but it still requires you to place it somewhere which is a lot more than Bard has to worry about when literally clicking their song off.

Rook's promotion is only really useful in AoE intensive segments when you burn it quickly. However, in an AoE pull you want Bishop activated instead, so if you need TP you need to take time to set up bishop and slap on Promotion. You can attack inbetween these movements, sure, but it still requires more steps than a Bard clicking a song and it's up in 3 seconds. The time "wasted" is equivalent even if MCH gets off one more GCD, you're weaving in support between that GCD where you could, in theory, be weaving in offensive cooldowns or anything else. It's still a gain on the MCH side at the cost of being slightly more bothersome.

TL;DR

Bard
+ Songs switch easily, less micromanagement
+ Foe Requiem lasts longer
+ Battle Voice is always useful for any song you're singing, even if you switch songs

- Lose a GCD.5 for singing a song
- No physical Foes

MCH
+ Potentially less DPS loss for support
+ Physical Foes + Magic Foes
+ More flexibility for support more often

- Micromanagement of turrets
- Reliant on Hypercharge for flexibility

If all you have against Bard utility is losing that GCD.5, you're really focusing on the wrong points. As a BRD/MCH you're there to be a battery when needed, which means your DPS takes a back seat during not-a-burn-phase. That goes for both classes. MCH does feel a bit better in blowing Hypercharge during a burn phase on tp/mp regen, but in a practical sense I think people can agree that using Hypercharge offensively is quite superior than the boosted recovery options. That being said, Hypercharge being used defensively is a good option as well. You need to assess the situation and react accordingly. That is what MCH is predicated on for me, and it's really fun to do so.

Again, I play both MCH and BRD and I feel I understand the two classes relatively well. I don't really prefer one over the other and I see both with positives and negatives. I also wouldn't rail against people for their preference one way or the other at all, and all joking I do towards people who shunned BRD for MCH is in jest, because really everyone should play what they enjoy.
 

Zhao_Yun

Member
Still need 5 feathers for the Twintania mount. Sucks that one of my recruited friends stopped playing after 120 sub days.... had he played one month longer I would have the mount now. :(
 

Xux

Member
When I can job change to Bard and not have it feel like I'm playing Machinist after suffering a severe head injury.

Bard has some strengths song-wise, but they tend to be big macro things (BV's longer doubling on a forever cooldown, Foe Req in general); the strength and weakness of MCH is its obsession with little weird fiddly bits that do things you don't expect.

It's mostly that I worry people really do think of MCH Promotion as a 1:1 swap for Bard songs, and are missing out on some of the weird things you can do (the moment I realized I could stop my turret from accidentally killing a thing early by just forcing it into regen mode I felt so dumb. Nuance!)



Fiddly bits. I refused to give anyone a full opinion on MCH until I had GB unlocked specifically because I was expecting another Minuet and was pretty shocked by it working out as well as it did. GB is a designed job system. Minuet is what happens when you copy paste caster stance and forget to copy paste the toolkit that goes with it.
Yeah, it'd be neat if WM did something besides gating those two abilities. TBH, I wasn't much interested in either class 'til I heard about their casting stances and I'm glad MCH seems better put together since I like guns in fantasy games. Still eight more levels 'til I can get GB, tho.
 

scy

Member
The quick toggle is potentially misleading. In most fights where Ballad is a thing, I'm using Rook. Rook can't MP regen, so swapping is two-step: GCD, place bishop, GCD, promotion. Swapping back is just placing Rook, though, since Promotion falls off on its own. Then again, "most fights where Ballad is a thing" right now is Savage, and in A1S I just place and promote during jumps and A2S is Bishop's time to shine.

Maybe this a PC thing and/or Summoner practice but replacing the turret is a non-issue? Cast and toggle is at worst a barely clipped GCD and an entire GCD tick ahead of Bard song. Maybe it's significantly worse for controller? I'm also primarily thinking of freebie moments like during a jump where you get a full extra tick out of it due to getting to frontload the effect.

The downside is that BV doesn't affect the bard who sings it. That's not always a downside. ... In basically every other scenario that exists Bard has it better than Machinist when it comes to spot MP regen.

Okay, first off, how is that not a downside? Like, there's no upside to not gaining the effect of your own BV. It's literally 100% downside.

As for the better at spot regen bit ...how? The only way their regen is better if you're BVing it for 6+ ticks. Otherwise they're the same MP gained except Machinist regen was there a tick earlier. Again, the one angle already stated as in Bard's domain for this is 18s+ of boosted regen since their duration is strictly better. At the very base level of their regens, they're equivalent however. The primary difference is one is more button presses to enable (switch, toggle) but it's still going to be faster by an entire tick.

Besides that, I'd argue that "spot regen" and "using BV / Hypercharge on it" aren't the same thing but this is possibly a semantics point?

Even when Angary mentioned that you can drop a turret and Promote/hypercharge during a burn phase to get MP back, it's still, in my opinion, way worse than Bard throwing up a single GCD.5 to get ballad ticking for as long as you need it to. You're impacting your dps, sure, but you also aren't burning an cooldown in a defensive manner where you may not need the full duration of it. If you turn promotion off during single target burn phase you still now need to swap your turret and lose your Hypercharge. Bard just shuts off the song and you're back at full damage potential.

So how is it a DPS loss to burn Hypercharge Promote here but not a DPS loss to burn BV here? Even if you swap songs, you're most likely missing full buff period of damage so it was a loss anyway. I'm not entirely sure I'm following this logic train here of somehow one used on regen is defensive and the other isn't. Both cases sound like massive losses of maximum potential damage?

It also sounds like you're saying Hypercharge Promote vs non-BV Ballad and it's entirely confusing to me? Also worth note, if you do Hypercharge + Promote, you can let it attack once to get the vulnerability as well as the MP regen. Can even refresh it and have 100% uptime of both effects. Additionally, Hypercharge Bishop even single-target is better than base Rook so you'd just eat the 40 potency loss instead of switching early anyway.

If all you have against Bard utility is losing that GCD.5, you're really focusing on the wrong points. As a BRD/MCH you're there to be a battery when needed, which means your DPS takes a back seat during not-a-burn-phase.

Then this means you're missing the point. It's about getting it out there an entire server tick ahead of schedule. In any event of toggling turret vs casting song, the Machinist will be one entire refresh tick ahead. The lost GCD I was bringing up has literally nothing to do with your DPS. The talk about the speed of the activation is about finding the free time to generate a tick of either regen that on Bard would be awkward due to the cast time. I have no idea how anyone can say that a BV not spent on Foe's isn't losing out on a lot of damage while saying that Hypercharge'd Promote is.

I have nothing against Bard utility because end of the day, Foe's is better for me than literally every single possible use of Turret stuff simply because I'm a caster.

Edit: Basically, my take on the situation in general is that Bard is better at the long term big regen with BV but it's an awful use of BV. When it comes to short-term spot regen, Machinist is better due to them being able to activate it quicker for free pulses in fight lulls. If they're both just running until empty on non-buffed versions of regen, they're effectively the same thing.
 

iammeiam

Member
Galen your post is too long to quote and edit on mobile because holy shit am I lazy, but I need to point out you should never be turret swapping while Hypercharge is up unless the situation is well and truly fucked. Even if you have Bishop up in a single-target situation, as long as you placed him properly you can just shut Promotion off and get Magic Hypercharge vulnerability plus doubled Bishop damage for the remainder of Hypercharge... And 60*2 *1.05 > 80, so Hypercharged Bishop is still a DPS gain for the machinist over Rook. If you have rook up and want to swap to Bishop for AOE, you potentially lose more per GCD, but I'm guessing emergency Promoted MP is the more common scenario.

Foe Req also directly hampers basic battery ability while Hypercharge doesn't, it's possible to waste BV by running OoM while OoMing during Hypercharge just means you'll get the damage version, I'm not sure having a tool that promotes flexibility is a net negative just because the flexibility the tool promotes relies on said tool, Hypercharge's doubled regen potential is actually more seconds per BV CD than BV... So many things. I think an actual +/- list would take me forever.

Edit: swapping turrets isn't hard, but I wouldn't want to ride the Promotion CD doing it because you can't target during a cast and it just messes up my flow. It's more I think of toggling as "Oh shit Bishop's gonna kill the Gobwalker *promotepromotepromote* OK time to kill it *promotion off*" and not a multi-step process. I do do some random turret swapping in places where I can get away with it, or toggle to buy myself a few TP ticks sometimes.
 

Teknoman

Member
Anyone else who upgraded to Windows 10 have problems saving screenshots? I know I've got the same folder path, but keeps telling me screenshot failed. Cant figure it out.
 
Wow!! Warrior in PVP is such a blast. A nice change of pace from PLD. First match I did we won and I came out with 10 kills, lol. Really a lot of fun.
 

Teknoman

Member
see if you have write permissions for that folder

Yeah that seemed to be the problem. Had to give account full control again, but you'd think it would default to that what with only being one user account on the PC. Hopefully I wont have any steam issues or anything crazy down the line.
 

iammeiam

Member
The thread turned into BRD/MCH non-sense again so everyone sane left.

I was going to say something about how terrifying it is that "sane" for this thread is screenshot of Qhon's bikini tank shoving her non-butt into the camera... But then I realized that was probably exactly what a substantial portion of this thread lives for and now I am just sad.
 

Sorian

Banned
I was going to say something about how terrifying it is that "sane" for this thread is screenshot of Qhon's bikini tank shoving her non-butt into the camera... But then I realized that was probably exactly what a substantial portion of this thread lives for and now I am just sad.

Those lizard girls know who to work the camera. Not our fault.
 

Redx508

Member
Yeah that seemed to be the problem. Had to give account full control again, but you'd think it would default to that what with only being one user account on the PC. Hopefully I wont have any steam issues or anything crazy down the line.

yea win8/10 like to lock down folders go over all your most use folders and give them full control
 

rubius01

Member
Yeah that seemed to be the problem. Had to give account full control again, but you'd think it would default to that what with only being one user account on the PC. Hopefully I wont have any steam issues or anything crazy down the line.


Red is right, but make sure the filepath isnt to the library location, but to the actual location.
 

WolvenOne

Member
BTW, aside from Favors and such, I'm assuming that the first thing I should be buying with Red Scrip Tokens is the Mining Weapon right? I mean, if I want to be able to farm up new materials when they come out in 3.1 or whatnot.

Obviously a few favors come first though, need to figure out how those work today, and which one to buy.
 

Jayhawk

Member
BTW, aside from Favors and such, I'm assuming that the first thing I should be buying with Red Scrip Tokens is the Mining Weapon right? I mean, if I want to be able to farm up new materials when they come out in 3.1 or whatnot.

Obviously a few favors come first though, need to figure out how those work today, and which one to buy.

i140 offhand to i170 crafted offhand is bigger upgrade than i150 mainhand to i170 mainhand

...

These A2S clear unmerged parse numbers are intriguing. SMN hitting 1916, MNK 1607, DRG hitting 1286. Somebody getting that TP supply.
 
Top Bottom