Support NeoGAF

[Tabris]

Yoshida said they don't figure them in. In which case I'd say some fights are designed around some kind of gear check, probably.

Either that, or Yoshida doesn't know what he's talking about.

If that's the case, then the gear check for A4S must be i210+ which doesn't make sense.

Because they were rolling in i203-205+ (if ignoring melded gear) and had some of the best DPS players out there, and would struggle with all of the DPS checks with healers DPS'ing.

 

[DarknessTear]

If that's the case, then the gear check for A4S must be i210+ which doesn't make sense.

Because they were rolling in i203-205+ and had some of the best DPS players out there, and would struggle with all of the DPS checks with healers DPS'ing.

One thing I noticed in both clear pictures is that the tanks used were DRK/WAR and were in DPS stance in the clear screenshots.

 

[docbon]

return of the monku imminent.

calling all oyamas.

 

[Tabris]

One thing I noticed in both clear pictures is that the tanks used were DRK/WAR and were were in DPS stance in the clear screenshots.

Yup, which is what I am complaining about with the lack of PLD buff. You either need to buff PLD via increasing their DPS or increasing their overall damage mitigation so the WHM can DPS more.

 

[Ken]

One thing I noticed in both clear pictures is that the tanks used were DRK/WAR and were were in DPS stance in the clear screenshots.

That doesn't really say much. Could be that the boss was casting enrage and there was no damage left to tank.

 

[Frumix]

One thing I noticed in both clear pictures is that the tanks used were DRK/WAR and were were in DPS stance in the clear screenshots.

Doesn't mean a lot. When it's an enrage cast/close to enrage cast and no further large damage is gonna come out until either a loss or a win, tanks and healers may go into DPS mode to eke out a few extra thousands.

 

[DarknessTear]

That doesn't really say much. Could be that the boss was casting enrage and there was no damage left to tank.

Could be. I'm just wondering what kind of numbers everyone needs to pull in that fight...

 

[SliceSabre]

Yup, which is what I am complaining about with the lack of PLD buff. You either need to buff PLD via increasing their DPS or increasing their overall damage mitigation so the WHM can DPS more.

Which is why I mentioned the devs not thinking about healer dps.

They aren't going: "By increasing the tank's damage mitigation the healers can help dps more."

 

[Tabris]

Could be. Either way, probably a huge DPS check. D:

I don't understand what stance you are taking in this debate because you just said that Yoshida designs fights so that healer DPS isn't factored in and it's a gear check then just said it's a huge DPS check when I respond that these groups needed healers to DPS to push past those.

Which is why I mentioned the devs not thinking about healer dps.

They aren't going: "By increasing the tank's damage mitigation the healers can help dps more."

But they are designing fights where healer DPS is required. And yes, I agree they aren't doing that. I am suggesting they do, to differentiate PLD from the other two, or you just increase PLD DPS to match those two. Because right now the damage mitigation doesn't matter and it's all about DPS.

 

[DarknessTear]

I don't understand what stance you are taking in this debate because you just said that Yoshida designs fights so that healer DPS isn't factored in then just said it's a huge DPS check when I respond that these groups needed healers to DPS to push past those.

I'm not really in the debate. Just saying that Yoshida claimed they don't figure in healer DPS!. :3

Also sleepy edits. zzzzz

Here's the quote btw.

Yoshida: Yes. Since all DPS jobs will be increasing up through level 60, it makes sense to have the white mage's DPS extend by a proportional amount as well. For development, such as with Bahamut's Coils, the development team assumes what the item level should be for general equipment on players when they clear a raid. They sum up the basic DPS for four DPS and tanks at that assumed item level and cut that by about 10-15% for the minimum clear DPS. Healer DPS is not taken into account when this is set. Certainly for people who are at world's first level, their goal is to clear it at as low an item level as possible, lower than the one assumed during development. So if you look at the fight and figure out that if it's not numerically possible to clear with four DPS and tanks, you'll need to make up the gap with DPS from healers. Then when those publish clear videos and other people see the healers DPSing, they might think that healers need to be DPSing even though its a situation that only arose because their clear would have otherwise been impossible. While we could take this into account, and assume a different item level in the next update which would then make it impossible to clear even with the healer DPS, we'd eliminate this type of play for highly skilled players who use communication, items, and a high level of understanding to come up with those last second clears. That would be a tough decision to make, so I still think it should be up to each party's own plans. This is also one of the reasons we decided to implement both a normal and savage version of Alexander. Once again, healer DPS was not included in the development team's calculation as it was for other jobs, so you should just think of healer DPS as a last way to get your overall party's DPS up to where it needs to be.

Maybe

Spoiler

probably

things are different, now.

 

[Ken]

I'm not really in the debate. Just saying that Yoshida claimed they don't figure in healer DPS!. :3

I believe that. Should remember that early kills of upper floors/turns, where high healer DPS is stressed, are the anomaly.

 

[SliceSabre]

They should just design more fights with things like Judgement Nisi and Swearing Wind.

As a healer I absolutely love things like that.

 

[Tabris]

I'm either calling bullshit on Yoshi or they designed A4S for an impossible iLevel or were testing with upcoming relics or something.

Because if the calculation is iLevel * (4 DPS expected damage + 2 Tank expected damage) * .85 or .90 to determine their DPS checks, there's no way that a group at i205 (it's impossible to get past i208 without having cleared A4S and most importantly weapon is at i200) would be able to clear A4S.

 

[SliceSabre]

Or dps and tanks need to git gud and world first groups' dps isn't as hot shit as everyone thinks and yoshi's team expects better dps out of the dps and tanks without the healers having to be a crutch for them.

 

[Tabris]

Or dps and tanks need to git gud and world first groups' dps isn't as hot shit as everyone thinks and yoshi's team expects better dps out of the dps and tanks without the healers having to be a crutch for them.

You didn't answer my question - Are you doing Alex Savage?

How should these players "git gud". Watching POV videos from these groups, they have near perfect rotations.

 

[Omni]

This actually made me lose interest in healing in this game. I'd much rather be faced with straight up harsh healer checks than be made to DPS. My logic is that if I wanted to DPS I'd roll a DPS class. =\

Kinda agree with this. It's also why I was getting annoyed at some of those duties in the MSQ that required you to take out mobs of enemies. Such a chore as a healer >.>

Of course I'll still do it, but healers should be focused on... yanno. Healing.

 

[Ken]

I think it's safe to assume the top progression group DPS do a bit more than expected of their gear levels. And then healer/tank/"extra" DPS makes up whatever expected ilevel gap there is.

 

[SliceSabre]

You didn't answer my question - Are you doing Alex Savage?

How should these players "git gud". Watching POV videos from these groups, they have near perfect rotations.

Yes I am doing Alex Savage but I'm not dedicated towards it because of my work schedule doesn't allow me to do it when my FC is doing it so I'm more focused on leveling my other classes right now.

 

[Tabris]

Yes I am doing Alex Savage but I'm not dedicated towards it because of my work schedule doesn't allow me to do it when my FC is doing it so I'm more focused on leveling my other classes right now.

Didn't answer my 2nd question.

But when you start getting into Alex Savage, you'll notice that you just won't be able to make DPS checks no matter how perfect your DPS' rotations are. You need healer DPS.

Unless you wait long enough for welfare upgrade items so everyone's overgeared the content.

 

[Frumix]

Kinda agree with this. It's also why I was getting annoyed at some of those duties in the MSQ that required you to take out mobs of enemies. Such a chore as a healer >.>

Of course I'll still do it, but healers should be focused on... yanno. Healing.

Most of the time it means "standing around waiting for tank's health to drop below 90%". Idk if that's your thing.

 

[SliceSabre]

Didn't answer my 2nd question.

But when you start getting into Alex Savage, you'll notice that you just won't be able to make DPS checks no matter how perfect your DPS' rotations are. You need healer DPS.

Unless you wait long enough for welfare upgrade items so everyone's overgeared the content.

I admit me saying git gud was partly just me being snarky and partly me thinking the maybe Yoshi and his team just have higher expectations of the dps groups should be putting up. I dunno.

Most of the time it means "standing around waiting for tank's health to drop below 90%". Idk if that's your thing.

When I'm AST I've no problem tossing out a couple of my DoT.

But tbh my dpsing as healer during dungeons entirely depends on what healer I am. SCH? Yup, I've no problem doing it. AST? I'll toss out my DoTs otherwise no I need to play with my cards. WHM? Regen on tank. /mdance

 

[Omni]

Most of the time it means "standing around waiting for tank's health to drop below 90%". Idk if that's your thing.

No more mindless than entering Cleric stance, using a couple of Aeros and spamming Stone III for a million years. I wouldn't complain if it was actually fun. No variety there at all

 

[SliceSabre]

There is an argument to be made that when it comes to healers actually dpsing, well it is VERY boring.

Excluding SCH because they started lives out as a DPS class, AST and WHM are extremely boring when it comes to attacking.

 

[Moaradin]

I'll take those Monk buffs. I still don't know why they won't give us 5 stacks right away with Meditation out of combat. It literally changes nothing in actual fights. Only makes it less annoying to click before pulls. But no, somehow that would be "too strong".

 

[ViciousDS]

huh.....monks even got a little boost, interesting.

But not going to lie, when I heard you had to DPS as a healer to get through things....it kind of set me off and made me not interested in the class. I love standing around and playing a healer.......don't need to DPS.....unless your bored.

 

[PhillipCostigan]

Tasty, tasty MNK buffs

the time of MNK is upon us again

rejoice, for the fotm DPS will soon be usurped by the POWER OF GREASED LIGHTNING

 

[Frumix]

Okay so the way new Collective Unconscious works is that if you enter it while it's channeled, even for a little, you get a Regen (up to 15 sec every time you enter).
Defence buff wears off when the channel is broken / you leave the area, but regen doesn't, and it refreshes.

There is an argument to be made that when it comes to healers actually dpsing, well it is VERY boring.

Excluding SCH because they started lives out as a DPS class, AST and WHM are extremely boring when it comes to attacking.

It's the same on every class. Apply DoTs, fill in with spammable. SCH doesn't come close to the complexity of SMN DPS, especially at 60.

 

[InfiniDragon]

Tasty, tasty MNK buffs

the time of MNK is upon us again

rejoice, for the fotm DPS will soon be usurped by the POWER OF GREASED LIGHTNING

Battle Litany.

Until that gets a nerf DRG/NIN will still be the melee team of choice.

 

[Mr Nash]

Most of the time it means "standing around waiting for tank's health to drop below 90%". Idk if that's your thing.

That's more the fault of battle design than anything else. On the whole, I found my time as a healer and actually spending the majority of my time healing (because it was necessary) in WoW infinitely more interesting that this whole being forced to dps to pass the time as a healer in FFXIV.

 

[PhillipCostigan]

Battle Litany.

Until that gets a nerf DRG/NIN will still be the melee team of choice.

 

[ebil]

Amazing AST buffs, can't wait to test them in Savage this week. It's almost everything I had wished for, and then some. I'm also happy that MNK, which is my secondary job, got a bit of love. Our MNK will be pleased (for once).

 

[tiggerkiddo]

Had a AST largely heal Alex 3 normal solo with no issues.

 

[SliceSabre]

Okay so the way new Collective Unconscious works is that if you enter it while it's channeled, even for a little, you get a Regen (up to 15 sec every time you enter).
Defence buff wears off when the channel is broken / you leave the area, but regen doesn't, and it refreshes.



It's the same on every class. Apply DoTs, fill in with spammable. SCH doesn't come close to the complexity of SMN DPS, especially at 60.

That's...kinda my point?

You're not putting any thought behind spamming Malefic II or Stone III and I can understand why some healers don't like dpsing because for healers, dpsing is not fun because it requires zero thought. That is why I dislike dpsing as a healer, not simply because I vastly prefer healing, damage mitigation or buffs but because dpsing as a healer is AWFUL.

It'd be akin to telling a Paladin start spamming Clemency.

 

[Munba]

Some data mining (it's allowed here?) from halloween event:
Stuffed Succubus (Housing Item), Pumpkin Desk (Housing Item), Pumpkin Chair (Housing Item), Witch's Broom (Mount), Witch's Hat, Witch's Coatee, Witch's Gloves, Witch's Thighboots, Wild Rose Barding, Wind-up Firion (Minion), Pumpkin Butler (Minion), Eerie Wallpaper (Housing item), Pumpkin Candlestand (Housing Item), Pumpkin Basket.

 

[dramatis]

Does anyone think i would be able to run this game at max settings on a single 970 at 4k with an average framerate of at least 40 fps? (I5 4690k cpu)
This reddit post gives me hope
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/2mfmd7/im_actually_able_to_play_ffxiv_at_4k_with_little/

Just YOLO it.

Check to make sure no roaches are in your PC though

 

[EndcatOmega]

Some data mining (it's allowed here?) from halloween event:
Stuffed Succubus (Housing Item), Pumpkin Desk (Housing Item), Pumpkin Chair (Housing Item), Witch's Broom (Mount), Witch's Hat, Witch's Coatee, Witch's Gloves, Witch's Thighboots, Wild Rose Barding, Wind-up Firion (Minion), Pumpkin Butler (Minion), Eerie Wallpaper (Housing item), Pumpkin Candlestand (Housing Item), Pumpkin Basket.

I don't see why it wouldn't be allowed?

 

[Munba]

Well some 'places' have closed down because data mining, so i asked

 

[iammeiam]

Witch's Coatee sounds like a fanservice pandering thing to me. Hurray.

There is an argument to be made that when it comes to healers actually dpsing, well it is VERY boring.

Excluding SCH because they started lives out as a DPS class, AST and WHM are extremely boring when it comes to attacking.

This makes no sense. Yes, the WHM DPS rotation is and of itself is pretty bland, but the challenge and interesting bit is balancing that with healing. Stance dancing, knowing when you can and cannot get away with it, etc.

And the thing is, that will always be more interesting and complex than not DPSing because if you have GCDs left over after keeping up with healing, using them to DPS will be less boring than using them to do nothing. The choice isn't between healer DPS and something more interesting for a healer capable of keeping up with healing, it's between healer DPS and standing around, and standing around is significantly more boring. It's how you end up with healers trying to make shapes with Neverreap totems.

 

[SliceSabre]

I'm not sure why I'm complaining to be honest. I'm maining AST and I'm actually being less effective at my job if I'm dpsing instead of managing my cards and team buffs. I'll apply those dots and move on.

I still haven't decided if I'll take my WHM from 50 to 60 because I'm finding it to be more boring compared to SCH and AST now.

 

[Frumix]

Well some 'places' have closed down because data mining, so i asked

Garland Tools only closed down temporarily and XIVDB removed quest dialogue from their data files but everything else still works.

 

[Sorian]

I don't see why it wouldn't be allowed?

Cause Yoship whines like a little girl over data mining.

Witch's Coatee sounds like a fanservice pandering thing to me. Hurray.

Excellent

 

[Kagari]

Bard never gets buffs, only nerfs

 

[Sorian]

Bard never gets buffs, only nerfs

In 4.0, we will be removing bard and machinist auto-attack. We feel that they do too much dps.

 

[Grisby]

I freaking hate that dungeon as WHM. No one knows how to dodge >.<

I admit, I got hit a lot my first time there, but yeah, some folks don't even try to move.

I'm not unlimited mana fountain y'all.

 

[SliceSabre]

Bard never gets buffs, only nerfs

Fun fact in dungeon parties when I'm an AST I almost never give my buffs to the Bard.

I've even had Bards call me out on this. A paradox occurs if I'm in a party with two Bards.

 

[Kagari]

In 4.0, we will be removing bard and machinist auto-attack. We feel that they do too much dps.

They already removed that...

 

[Kagari]

Fun fact in dungeon parties when I'm an AST I almost never give my buffs to the Bard.

I've even had Bards call me out on this. A paradox occurs if I'm in a party with two Bards.

You are a bad person.

 

[Sorian]

They already removed that...

I care so little about your class that I couldn't even be assed to make a good joke.

 

[iammeiam]

I for one am glad they finally addressed the primary MCH concern of not enough buttons to push at all times. My only regret is they didn't just add a second QR skill, as that feels more in keeping with base class design.

Excellent

i can only assume you're also stoked by the apparent lack of pants item.

Fun fact in dungeon parties when I'm an AST I almost never give my buffs to the Bard.

I've even had Bards call me out on this. A paradox occurs if I'm in a party with two Bards.

I like to Balance physical ranged prepull and watch the good ones rip off unprepared tanks. Sustained is shit, but the burst is real.

 

[Valor]

Of course I'll still do it, but healers should be focused on... yanno. Healing.

Except that the time that you need to heal is usually either very predictable or very spaced out especially in dungeons. So you're basically standing there waiting for tanks or shit dps to take damage so you can pop a cure and then alt tab for another 45 seconds.

I admit me saying git gud was partly just me being snarky and partly me thinking the maybe Yoshi and his team just have higher expectations of the dps groups should be putting up. I dunno.

I dunno why people seem to enjoy on getting off saying that the best players at this game are somehow shit. I have no clue what is trying to be proven by these asinine statements.

No more mindless than entering Cleric stance, using a couple of Aeros and spamming Stone III for a million years. I wouldn't complain if it was actually fun. No variety there at all

There is an argument to be made that when it comes to healers actually dpsing, well it is VERY boring.

Excluding SCH because they started lives out as a DPS class, AST and WHM are extremely boring when it comes to attacking.

You two simply don't seem to know how to dps as healers. That's why you think it's boring. It's not about mindlessly spamming stones in Cleric Stance, but about knowing how far you can push the dps and still keep people alive. Still don't understand how WHM who have the ability to Holy nuke find DPSing boring. I just don't get it. I guess it's just easier to afk cure spam than to actually try.