There was a party the other day, all DPS had i200 weapons, couldn't break Carapace in one go, something that we were able to do with i170.
I mean.
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Final Fantasy XIV: Heavensward |OT| Raiders of the Void Ark
- Thread starter Trojita
- Start date
There was a party the other day, all DPS had i200 weapons, couldn't break Carapace in one go, something that we were able to do with i170.
I mean.
But people will still defend Yoship for saying that parsers are evil. These people straight up do not know how to play the game. With an ilvl 200 weapon and probably other eso stuff bought, you only need two of the dps to be decent to good and that carapace is breaking in one go.
YoshiP never said that parsers themselves are evil. He just knows what people tend to do with them.
Parsers are great for finding out the "why' regarding low DPS (hey your acc isn't 100%, hey your up-time compared to this guy's *insert buff here* is lower, ect). What actually ends up happening is "oh this class does less DPS than this class, lolclass, *boot*". it happens in every game with them (and it still happens here I am sure, but less so since people can't admit to parsing). The hive mind in MMO communities is usually pretty strong and word gets around fast about stuff.
I feel like YoshiP not outright crushing people who aren't using it in that abusive fashion and are mostly using it to get data show that he isn't against correct use of it. They just hang the threat of banning for using it in that fashion over your head (and not keeping it low key). Or maybe he realizes that actually finding out every person parsing is too much work. But even then, doesn't seem like as big of a concern for the dev team as abuse using it.
Even if they did allow official parsers, I don't think that'd be an actual solution (see WoW, where parsers are much more common and people aren't allowed to switch classes quite so freely, yet are still just as bad at them).
The problem is there is nothing in the game that shows people how to play effectively. Parsers won't do that either.
I don't need a parser to jump on a bandwagon that says "lol Bards sux" on the side and help the community by kicking every Bard that I see. Most people do not know that they, themselves, pull shit numbers. Does knowing that fix anything? Maybe, depends on the type of player but as it stands now, there is ALWAYS another DPS that you can blame for your own shortcomings and no one is allowed to point at the numbers because that's a bullshit bannable offense. God forbid you tell someone their parse is low, it might be bullying or some non-sense.
No, but it would at least make players hesitate knowing that they are garbage. Some won't care, of course, but it would get through to some people.
Bingo,
in theory class quests should be helping with this, but they are pretty easy. By design, most likely, but after those are done there should be something to help people not interested in going on a message board or finding a parser they don't even understand.
I think relic weapons would be a good place to put this stuff, not an ideal solution, but let the player swinging around the legendary weapon show that they at least have a grasp on it.
That's the thing though: there's plenty of examples in games of people using parsers to justify excluding classes. You can hate *insert class here* all you want, but without data like a parse to back it up, most people aren't gonna catch on (and if you do, hey you're exactly what YoshiP doesn't want in the game). On the other hand, there are very few examples of parsers from other people in random groups fixing the DPS of scrubs who didn't care enough to do their own research on their class already (and hey, a lot of people do not care).
Ironically, allowing free reign of parsers in DF would almost certainly perpetuate more ignorance among the playerbase, and not solve much of anything.
Parsers may help, but will breed an elitist environment more then the better solution:
Remove the carry mechanics of this game - Roulette and Echo.
And then give a reason to have to do HM and EX fights for progression.
Like maybe you can't unlock Ravana EX and Bismarck EX until you've completed the 3 Primal EX. Can't unlock Alexander Savage until you've cleared Coil, etc.
Force players into learning mechanics with other people learning mechanics.
New players right now get carried through the easy and medium content, and when they get to the hard and savage content, they hadn't learned anything during the easy and medium content stage.
Remove the carry mechanics of this game - Roulette and Echo.
And then give a reason to have to do HM and EX fights for progression.
Like maybe you can't unlock Ravana EX and Bismarck EX until you've completed the 3 Primal EX. Can't unlock Alexander Savage until you've cleared Coil, etc.
Force players into learning mechanics with other people learning mechanics.
New players right now get carried through the easy and medium content, and when they get to the hard and savage content, they hadn't learned anything during the easy and medium content stage.
VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
What they should do is add a scoring system.
Like in Devil May Cry and Bayonetta you have a scoring system that pops up every fight.
In Bayonetta after each fight you get graded based on your performance. They could do the same here.
Like in Devil May Cry and Bayonetta you have a scoring system that pops up every fight.
In Bayonetta after each fight you get graded based on your performance. They could do the same here.
Not designing a game around an action system with 35 different commands could probably also help. I'm not advocating for 5 button rotations WoW seems to be going for as of late but coming into a Final Fantasy title, I don't think many people are looking to play piano etudes to succeed.
This will fuck over every single new player because nobody will run that content with them. It's already happening. If you haven't cleared Bismarck in early access, you're fucked.
Can't go into easy-to-mid tier content until you've cleared hard content? No, please think before posting some of these ideas.
I meant Alexander Savage. Alexander Normal would be CT maybe.
Right. A lot of people who play Final Fantasy aren't in it for the complicated button pushing.
Better, removing roulette is a terrible idea though. I agree with removing echo.
Okay, funny guy, have you actually tried being behind in this game? Because I did, on purpose, it can be pretty hellish, especially if you don't have months of experience so people would actually want you in their parties regardless of clear flags you have at the moment.
A common sight are party finders with "I just want to clear [Instance name here], tired of wipes, please help". You open the player's FC window and it's an FC with 400 people, of which at least 30 are online. I mean, enough said, right?
Except no. I want you to go start a PF for Bismarck EX right now. You're even a tank which gives a huge advantage. I promise, you will not fill that group in two hours.
I've been behind in FFXI multiple times during multiple breaks in that game, and that game had no concept of duty finder. You find people who are on the same page as you and start running things with them.
Except my PFer wouldn't be for Bismarck EX, it would be a group or FC to run things together as we work on progression. If people weren't used to being carried, there would be a much larger pool of players available for that too.
See above bolded to change that dynamic.
XI was a different game.
Apples and Oranges. FFXI always had people running different content because of the horizontal gear progression. That isn't what they are trying to do here so it doesn't work that way.
Nope, it didn't. There was no reason to do story missions again. I remember having to spend some time forming up a group of people at the same area of the CoP story expansion (story missions were actually hard in this game). The game forced you to socialize and form groups. It forced you to do that just to exp as you couldn't solo anything in that game really. This game only requires you to do that for progression / savage raiding.
Removing Roulette is an awful idea. It allows people to still enjoy the game even off-hours on a dead server.
Yes and no. FFXI had hard story missions required to even access new areas throughout its lifespan, yea. It even forced you to form up pts of people.
But there's so much context you are ignoring. So many of those classes were incredibly simple to play (I could probably write a computer program to play my 75 BRD, and I am no programmer) compared to the classes we have in FF14. Bosses too, outside a few choice BCNMs and story encounters peppered throughout the expansion were pretty simple "what is this mob's shtick and how many people do we have to throw at it to stabilize a kill?". Much like early WoW,'s larger raids, it was about finding bodies and herding them like lemmings.
Yes and no. FFXI had hard story missions required to even access new areas throughout its lifespan, yea. It even forced you to form up pts of people.
But there's so much context you are ignoring. So many of those classes were incredibly simple to play (I could probably write a computer program to play my 75 BRD, and I am no programmer) compared to the classes we have in FF14. Bosses too, outside a few choice BCNMs and story encounters peppered throughout the expansion were pretty simple "what is this mob's shtick and how many people do we have to throw at it to stabilize a kill?". Much like early WoW,'s larger raids, it was about finding bodies and herding them like lemmings.
SliceSabre
Banned
I remember in the Live Letter is was mentioned they were working on a training area for players so MAYBE that might help some.
Consolidate servers / worlds so they aren't as dead.
Hopefully. Sometimes I feel like Yoshida's "let them discover things by themselves" attitude is a bit extreme.
Ok sure, but isn't that exactly what none of us miss from everquest and FFXI? MMOs are built to respect players time these days not shit on them like they used too. It's the same logic someone would use to say that a duty finder type system is bad and people should just be forming parties with /shout in a city somewhere. Except that is time that you have to actively be looking instead of being able to get other things done. If this is the argument then meh, whatever, I'm happy the way it is, I never enjoyed spending an hour shouting the same message hoping a group would pick me up.
Except we're talking about why most players don't learn how to play the game well. I'm telling you is because as players are coming up right now they are skipping all the content either via carry from roulette or currency bonus or the million other ways SE has made it so you can be carried, or not having to do the content, that forces you to learn how to play the game.
They have designed a game that requires tight rotations and precise dodging but removed all the progression steps to learn where it currently just goes from easy to hard.
You have to pick one or the other. Either make the game more easy mode for things like DPS rotations, or you have to force players to learn through gradual progression.
They have designed a game that requires tight rotations and precise dodging but removed all the progression steps to learn where it currently just goes from easy to hard.
You have to pick one or the other. Either make the game more easy mode for things like DPS rotations, or you have to force players to learn through gradual progression.
irfaanator
Banned
/sh "drg w/ relic +1 looking for WP/AK runs for Myth Tomes"
It's not an either/or. Having a roulette system does not automatically lead to a carry situation. I agree that content should be gated appropriately and echo is not needed. Removing roulette would just be a death sentence to the game.
Yup, fuck that. I was a BLM though so I was everyone's first round draft pick.
SliceSabre
Banned
I don't look fondly back on days of being a healer and not being able to do SHIT by myself in other MMOs of yore.
Sitting outside a dungeon or outside town begging for someone to do a simple ass low reward quest with me.
BlitzEngineer
Member
So I hit 50, and was at first looking forward to continuing the story since release. I didn't realize all of these quests were fucking awful.
Why am I in DF for a level 30 dungeon? There are a HUNDRED of these quests before I can start Heavensward!? This has really quickly sapped my enthusiasm.
Why am I in DF for a level 30 dungeon? There are a HUNDRED of these quests before I can start Heavensward!? This has really quickly sapped my enthusiasm.
No. Pattern recognition is a skill that can't be taught by a game. It will maybe impart some basic responses to common situations, but attentiveness is something players have to develop as their own skill. I remember chewing out a guy for failing every single mechanic in an instance and he was like "Geez, chill man, I'm new." And it made me think back to when I was new to that instance and you know, I didn't make remotely as many mistakes as he did; because I started tracing common things in this game. Like how most DPS rotations are similar, or how if an attack name contains "gaze", you probably want to turn away, or how if a tank gets some kind of debuff with a number that goes up continuously, it's probably a tank swap in the making. Not a lot of people think like that. It's kind of like a problem old men have with computers or modern home tech. They can be taught how to operate one machine, but they aren't taught patterns that govern all the similar machines. Kinda like how "Learn how to operate Microsoft Word" is less useful than "Learn how to operate Windows-based software in general". You know?
I don't know how to deal with this problem from a game design standpoint, honestly, but just look at how progression in this game is. You spend 120 hours going from point A to point B to point A to point C listening to neverending drivel NPCs have to spout at you, occasionally defeating trivial monsters. Then you hit levelcap and a whole bunch of challenges open up for you that assume that by doing all that worthless shit you somehow learned that uptime is important for a DPS, how aggro management works, why DOTs are more powerful than single attacks as a rule or even something as simple as why you should be turning the boss away from the party as a tank. Except, oh wait, the game now expects you to know and excel at all those things because there's extreme primals, raids and all that stuff. Tabris is not wrong here.
So maybe the training area will help alleviate at least some of these problems but after playing this game for months I firmly believe that being a WoW clone will absolutely hurt this game in the long run.
But making you clear Garuda and Caduceus to do Bismarck and Manipulator is a bit disingenuous because... well, because of how this game incentivizes players. You're offering a large ladder in a system where even one step sometimes ends up insurmountable (the diabolical Bismarck?). If there was no duty finder, a situation in which you go into a town and shout for a party will still be met with indifference from other players who've got better shit to do than to run a challenging instance that offers no tangible reward to them. "So just find a party of people that are at the same level of progression" can be a very unrealistic proposition in today's online gaming.
Let me just underline this with one simple thing: this game doesn't teach its players to use Focus Target/watch castbars. Twisters anyone?
Incredibly unrealistic and a terrible idea in general. We shouldn't be marginalizing people who have different schedules than the status quo, or forcing them to play on certain servers just because.
Moreover, DF most definitely does not eclude people from getting carried. See: PF. Carries would just be limited to people on your particular server (for people that could afford them). Everyone else would be sol, and probably just quit and find something else to do. It's not like DF is a guaranteed carry anyway.
That actually seems like the kind of thing a training center *sould* help with. U.I. functionality, class specialties and limitations, ect.
How many times did the game require me as a SCH to position my fairy properly? Or even to take them off Sic? Or even something as simple to *Arcanist* as using Virus at the "right time" on a boss? I'm sure many people can think of other things for other jobs.
but even before that, there's the general things like you mentioned. So many things that rarely come up. And FF14 is actually better than WoW regarding visual queues too 9try to have someone on WoW run raids without something like Deadly Boss Mods and watch them fail boss ability timing over and over and over again).
SliceSabre
Banned
The incentive Roulette is a fucking must have.
A lot of that stuff is shit I'll never touch again unless roulette forces me to do so or someone in my FC is asking for help.
A lot of that stuff is shit I'll never touch again unless roulette forces me to do so or someone in my FC is asking for help.
A lot of that stuff is shit I'll never touch again and it's so bad that I refuse to even do roulettes. At least with the roulette system, they are conning some people into wasting their time.
Oh man, same. BRD/BLM were the only parties people wanted lol.
SliceSabre
Banned
Don't forget WHM for Holy Spam!
Conning some people into carrying new players who are turning into the players they are complaining about in later content.
On the topic of moving back to a pre-DF type MMO, I often wonder what would have happened if WoW could have handled its current cross-server paradigm 8 years ago. Currently in WoW, you can have friends from any server, use party finder across servers, run into players from any server in the overworld. If they had these features in 2007, maybe the roulette/dungeon finder/duty finder and the dead silent, anonymous run wouldn't be the backbone of the modern themepark MMO. If you could pull from the whole data center for your FFXIV friends list, it would be so much easier and faster to form statics or even opportunistic PUGs for content. Basically solve the same problem dungeon matchmaking does (insufficient population present at same time for old content) but in a way that still retains the core social requirement.
These carries you are talking about aren't actually happening.
Oh come on. Say you had to shout for Chrysalis party in Mor Dhona (which is now deserted so what would a 3.0 starting player do? Hell if I know). You get a bunch of kind adventurers, and you clear. All you learned is how to shout in Mor Dhona for a party. Otherwise it's not at all different from getting carried in a roulette. Getting 7 others who are at that step this many months after 2.5 came out is hella unlikely.
No way, he is saying you would find 7 other people who happen to be exactly at Chrysalis and are all the correct roles. Or you would just die of old age waiting for that perfect scenario.
Edit: Thenyou can all learn together! ^_^
SliceSabre
Banned
I dunno I've been in plenty of Trial Roulette parties where a couple of people had no idea of what the fuck to be doing and the rest of the group just brute forced through it without explaining a thing to them.
I can't count the number of times I did Titan HM with players who didn't know how to dodge and spent the entire match dead, and I believe you should have experienced the same if you were doing trial roulettes since 2.3.
Doing Titan HM is how a lot of players start to learn how to dodge. Ultima HM is where I started to learn due to how Titan HM was easy mode as tank.
With those players being carried past that, not having to do any of the primal EX fights, not having to do Coil, being streamrolled through the HM story fights (which aren't hard in the first place) again via trial roulette:
Where are they learning mechanics?
So is it any surprise people are running into players who don't know how to play the game doing things like Bismarck EX and Alexander NM?
If you make the servers populated enough via merging, I don't see an issue with this.
That's the thing though, People can do that right now and still choose DF due to the convenience and are picking for the harder content by checking things like WoW's player DB for achievements and clears. WoW is giving tons of people options (sometimes their only option depending on playstyle) and (were) designing future content for the game based around that.
A big part of the reason (imo) they are bleeding so many subs now is because they went out of their way to cater exclusively to the hardcore by putting so much emphasis on HM/Heroic raiding trying to recapture that feeling back in BC. So many shattered rose tinted frames.
That's not a roulette issue, that's a gearing issue. If you want to say they should ilvl sync everyone down to be more in line with any fight they are going into then I agree with you, but I seem to remember you whining when they did that with dungeons. Also, please, why the hell would I ever do trial roulette? It has never been an optimal thing to do. I've only been caught doing it once or twice if I needed hardly anything left towards capping or something.
Server mergers are a sign of a dead game and will lead to lack of investment from SE and other backers. Next idea.
Game's dead tho. A lot of people must be quitting before/shortly after they hit the cap because if copies are still sold then somebody's playing that leveling process, but endgame pool feels super anemic at times.
Like, sub 200k people cleared Alex HM. I mean... That seems pretty bad, right?
Like, sub 200k people cleared Alex HM. I mean... That seems pretty bad, right?