-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Final Fantasy XIV: Heavensward |OT| Raiders of the Void Ark
- Thread starter Trojita
- Start date
I enjoyed this post, and I think you're spot on.
So are we calling Heavensward a very disappointing expac now? What makes it so bad compared to other MMO expacs? I thought it was pretty great.
Good post, but where are you getting these numbers from? I didn't know there was any publicly released data on Coil.
engame content is super sparse and no updates to it since it launched. Unless you're a super hardcore raider there's nothing for you in the heavensward expac once you hit 60 aside from two ex primal fights and alexander normal, which was finished within four - six weeks depending on how intent you were on gearing your main.
It was and is a good expac, but the problem is that Heavensward was released in June and now it's October. We aren't getting 3.1 until November, and 3.1 isn't promising a whole lot of extra content to do. By then it'll be 4+ months since an update and the endgame landscape will still likely be:
Bismarck EX / Ravana EX / Alexander Normal / Alexander Savage / Void Ark / KotR EX
Unless I missed something else, this isn't a whole lot of battle content. Crafting content is getting stale with no new recipes to chase after (some would argue it's been stale since launch) and the amount of Stuff To Do isn't very extensive as well. Aside from Airship Exploration/Verminion/Relic Quest in 3.1 there isn't a whole lot there as well it seems. We're still a good let's just say 3-4 months out for the next batch of content that should be added and a chance to see how they're gonna change Alex Savage based on feedback to see which direction the game will continue to evolve.
Didn't the devs take vacation after the launch of heavensward? It's not surprising that between that and the Euro servers being built that they are a little behind in terms of updates. If you blast your way through content though you'll likely never be satisfied with the amount of they add.
The FC airship stuff with Diablo style random loot drops sounds awesome to me though so I'm looking forward to seeing how those things work out.
The FC airship stuff with Diablo style random loot drops sounds awesome to me though so I'm looking forward to seeing how those things work out.
Hyperbole. Heavensward is fantastic. The patches are coming in November. Geez. I'll let the poor team have SOME rest before we demand another two straight years of non-stop content additions.
Rose of Eternity
Banned
Unknown Soldier's post is spot on. It's why I quit back in early August. HW is one of the worst expansions I've played in my mmo career. Of course the feeling of something shiny and new for those first few weeks is great, but the giant dive it took after that I haven't experienced since Galaxies' first expansion JTL. I remember reading Tabris' posts about the glory days of FF11 and thinking he was being nostalgic a bit, but he was actually right when I think about my FF11 career. The content variety just isn't here yet for this game and the raiding scene is dismal in general. People scoff at pvp, but a robust pvp system is usually what allows the community to focus their attention elsewhere when pve isn't working out. This keeps the game alive while new raiders rise up and old raiders stick around. Square just doesn't know how to do pvp because, as mentioned, it's not something that's popular with Japanese players.
Pretty spot on and I think another issue with the bolded is that this community in general doesn't have the mentality to ensure this happens. While you'll get people who are generally rotten in any mmo I can easily say that this community is by far the least inviting and helpful when it comes to end game in general making learning and getting those new people into raiding a massive wall.
I know quite a few people who don't even bother with Alex savage simply because their experience with coil and the community was just such a miserable one. I went through WOW recently and it was a huge difference and I found that people were more accepting and you could actually make a mistake without losing your head.
I think build diversity plays into this. With the boss encounters here, you're just playing 8-10 minute jumprope, and groups are less willing to take on a newbie who is fresh to the fight when they're having trouble with minute 9, and they've taken weeks to get there. Very rarely are you ever bringing something to the raid that changes how the fights progress.
The fact that A4S has two strategies and one is considered "cheese" pretty much exemplifies the problem with PVE encounters beyond it being tuned a little high. I think Coil did some things right, most notably Turn 1 having an asymmetric boss fight with vertical topography instead of a circular/square arena. Turn 2 had a boss you could "cheese" by forcing it to enrage and then healing through it. If WoW had this same boss fight that would be a viable strategy but there would be different sets of rewards and maybe achievements for approaching it in both ways.
When FFXIV's playerbase is more concerned about the perceived sleep of the developers than the game they're paying for, I think priorities are a little out of whack. Yoshi-P is not your close personal friend and if his team is being overworked then that's up to him to solve. You're the end-user, never feel guilty about demanding the best game they can possibly deliver, that's their entire business model.
There is a lot of truth in what you say, but I also don't think it's fair to outright dismiss just how far the game has come, not just with A Realm Reborn, but since then as well. A great deal of the complaints with the base 2.0 were acknowledged and rectified with timely updates.
While I feel there is COUNTLESS room for improvement, I would argue that one thing FFXIV has in excess is almost too many things to do outside of good raids. When I think of the reasons I enjoy the game, the raiding is almost the bottom of the list. It's the story and characters, the class quests and class systems, unlocking new minions and mounts, Gold Saucer, Hildibrand nonsense, chocobo breeding and racing, the housing system, crafting, tribe quests, frontlines and wolf's den...
... And, to me, THAT is part of the same problem you mention. I simply don't enjoy the raiding. It's always the last thing I do in the day whenever I exhaust everything else. As someone who was late to the party, either I get groups that have no time or patience for a newcomer, or groups that have no idea how to advance and think they can blunt-force their way to victory despite mechanics.
I am neither a "hardcore" player equipped to take on Alexander Savage, nor am I a novice who wants to spend his time grinding leveling dungeons or duty trials forever. I'm stuck in the middle, with neither the time or skill for complete mastery, but enough dedication to clear as much of the game's content as I can while doing my homework to benefit a party.
The huge problem is there is no middle ground. The end-game content demands more skill, cooperation, coordination, and commitment than the majority of players are ever willing to put into it, which leaves those who are willing waiting for ages to find a good party capable of clearing this content. It's why one person can wipe everybody in a dungeon or trial, despite 7 other people doing exactly what they need to do.
It's nearly impossible to find all the people you need to get through this content, and I've encountered everything from people who refuse to do any dungeon raiding if you don't have a chat set up on your PC, those who refuse to play with those who use controllers, those who have decided they don't even need a keyboard on console, those who think that doing it unsynced means it's an "easy win", those who refuse to wait on new players watching cutscenes, and far too many who rage-quit and disband a party at the very first minor instance of setback or trouble. The criteria for much of this content is already insanely narrow and strict, and the community does not help by making it even narrower.
Ultimately, the game demands more from the COMMUNITY with raids and content than the community is capable of delivering. So rather than letting the community rise to the challenge, Square Enix's biggest obstacle is to stop focusing on distractions like chocobo breeding and Triple Triad (still love them), and to instead create content that better bridges casual, moderate, and hardcore players.
As much as I adored Heavensward's story (a LOT), locking the entire expansion behind a story wall is just an example of this. They demanded that players play the content the way they wanted if they wished to access the rest of the game, no matter if your focus was on crafting classes or house building. You WILL play through 40 odd-hours of patch dungeons and bosses and mini-quests... and that's the "easy" stuff, and lot of players never qualified to get past it. Good luck on the "hardcore" stuff.
Now, they ARE working on it. They are. I've seen them actively addressing these complaints, but they're doing it slower than I think many would like. I'm not sure what it would ultimately take, but just tossing out harder dungeons and trials isn't the solution. It's a hard request to actually satisfy, but they need to find a way to not make the dungeons harder but instead find ways to make the players BETTER.
Players shouldn't have to resort to exhaustive, complex, and convoluted walkthroughs and fan videos just to figure out what they're supposed to be doing. It should either be made clearer or be far more intuitive. It needs to be rebalanced for players to ease into this, and rebalanced so that players can actually do what the game demands of them.
I say that as a Ninja who will forever curse Mundra lag during key moments that may or may not have wiped a whole party...
This could be fixed in 3.1, depending on whether they actually changed anything or not.
I say this as a DRG who has had "improved" jumps every patch since 2.0, with them now claiming animation locks don't exist (they do). And they took away double-jumps via Elusive Jump! Unforgivable!
cultureculture
Member
I think it's pretty great too, though I recognise that it currently has some significant problems with the end-game, which are really being brought to the fore by Square losing their moment quite badly at a time when they were experimenting with new approaches for FFXIV (like story/savage raids). That sucks, but I'm not particularly salty about it. For the time being, I still have things to keep me occupied and I'm quite patient about wiping in A3S. I've been trying out new things as well, like working on my tanxiety since I really like DRK. Joined a Bismarck EX wipefest as DRK yesterday and had a lot of fun trying that out while chatting with one of the healers on Mumble; didn't even care that we didn't win because of the social aspect there. (Kind of wish that I was actually awake for GAF help nights if that's still a thing so that I could sneak in an opportunity to try stuff out as a tank.)
At any rate, it'll be interesting to see what the live letter will be like.
tl;dr: Players' experiences may vary
Pretty much.
Personally, I'm patient. We know a heap of changes are coming, and coming soon. We acknowledge there are problems, and I'm sure Yoshi-P and co. know this as well.
End game is suffering right now. I'm busying myself by leveling other classes (tank anxiety here too... but DRK is so cool!) and going through some of the content I bypassed the first time (still got some Coils to do and the Crystal Tower...), so I have plenty to keep me busy until the patches hit.
But nobody likes to wait and pay a subscription while they wait. I understand this. But I will give the developers enough credit. They're doing their hardest and absolutely are paying attention. I have faith in them, even if the changes I want may not come right when I want them to. I'm convinced they WILL come, though.
PANTS
HylianScribe
Member
Started playing through the HW story this past week (since I skipped almost every cutscene on first play through). Wow yea, I missed a lot.
Looks like the fall game season begins. A new Zelda game comes out on Oct 23 (Tri-force Heroes). Will probably not be playing except to cap Eso from then until Patch 3.1 hits. If anyone else gets it, come on mumble and play along with me. It has online multiplayer.
Looks like the fall game season begins. A new Zelda game comes out on Oct 23 (Tri-force Heroes). Will probably not be playing except to cap Eso from then until Patch 3.1 hits. If anyone else gets it, come on mumble and play along with me. It has online multiplayer.
Nah, there was no story in HW, about the same as your typical WoW expac.
Maybe we should plan a Fall/Winter EB to spice things up ;3
O: Now I'm kind of interested in picking that up.
SliceSabre
Banned
call me when 3.2 drops.
Unfortunately that probably won't be till april.
Unfortunately that probably won't be till april.
Demoskinos
Member
I'm part of Ultros Giant Bomb and I've been gone for 4+ months now. I took a 2+ month break before that. The game is just getting really stale. I wish I was as into it as I once was. =/
The story even makes you teleport back to 2.X zones to click on an NPC for more cutscenes! #motherofgod #neverbeendoneb4 #isthisthefuture
My original point was that the story isn't so overwhelmingly large that it can be used as some crutch to explain every other facet of the expansion pack. Don't get me wrong, I liked the story, but it's turned into this hyperbolic catch-all for any perceived negativity.
Being overly dismissive of other MMO stories is a little silly as well. Few of them make the choice FFXIV makes in making everyone the chosen one who seemingly ignores all of the other chosen ones running around next to them, they tell the story as if you're one of thousands of adventurers (which you are).
But FFXIV does tell you there are thousands of other adventurers running around.
... They just aren't as successful as you are...
cultureculture
Member
Not to mention the other adventurers and mercenaries that you beat the stuffing out of.
Fell cleaved a few Lalafells during a quest the other day. That was a good day.
Gadzooks you're still on this!?
Look, story does take resources, and the story for the expansion is a bit heftier than the average expansions storyline. There's also all the new zones, new dungeons, new classes, etc. While there wasn't quite enough at end-game it'd be absurd to call the amount of content in HW, "small," and it's quite clear why it might take more time to throw it together than the average patch. It's also quite clear why this might cause a bit of a delay.
Thus, to get back to the original comment that started this all, why YoshiP is talking about making the initial patch of the 4.0 expansion, a bit smaller. They clearly don't want to create such long periods between content again. That's a wholly reasonable decision.
PS: I love how you're now just using this as a reason to gripe about little pet peeves of yours. Also how these gripes appear to be, "FFXIV handles things differently!" Yes, XIV handles story differently than WoW, Rift, etc, deal with it! There wouldn't be much point to gaming if every game handled every little thing just like every other game.
I don't understand why some people here can't take using other games as a reference point to what someone wants in FFXIV.
There's obviously a lot of great things about FFXIV otherwise people wouldn't be playing it. Some people think there's things done in other games that are better that they would prefer in this game to combine with the things they like.
I have a feeling these defensive people are trying to fool themselves to justify to continue playing instead of looking at it analytically.
There's obviously a lot of great things about FFXIV otherwise people wouldn't be playing it. Some people think there's things done in other games that are better that they would prefer in this game to combine with the things they like.
I have a feeling these defensive people are trying to fool themselves to justify to continue playing instead of looking at it analytically.
Things like new zones and dungeons are the bare minimum of what an MMO expansion is expected to add, so padding your arguments with them feels a little redundant. There's objectively a bit less to classes in this game than others, so feel free to modulate your biases there too.
gadzooks, indeed.
I think 90% of the complaining wouldn't be here if the patch were out already. 
I don't disagree with the complaints though. At least with several of them
They need to find more middle content (been saying this forever) and stick to that as a primary focus, at least as much as raiding. Current completion rates are telling. You can't make a theme part MMO for the leveling process and then close all the casual content rides at 60 (or i should say not update the old ones). Yes, TT, Beastman Dailies mount and pet hunting, ext are fun, but they've been here a while.
Same with crafting, now that i have finally got into it as a side activity I actually found it really easy to cap scripts, but it's such a grind to even get to 60 with the amount of gathering mats (or money to buy them) you need, and for what? Vanity gear and housing furniture, which only goes so far since we only have so much room in our houses and most of the player base can't even buy one.
What exists now for casual content doesn't have a very impressive upper ceiling to get people to keep running it (outside RNG). TT, Chocobo racing, (and he Gold Saucer altogether), Hunts, Scripts, Esos, almost all of this has the exact same rewards it did at launch as well as being continuations of 2.X stuff.
I am actually ok with Normal and Final Coil as they are, but there should have been more in between (and more added to the casual content), especially since May. The fact that most people aren't going to be interested in doing a lot of the content (more people have ignored crafting for example) means that they should probably be updated on a more regular basis.
I don't disagree with the complaints though. At least with several of them
They need to find more middle content (been saying this forever) and stick to that as a primary focus, at least as much as raiding. Current completion rates are telling. You can't make a theme part MMO for the leveling process and then close all the casual content rides at 60 (or i should say not update the old ones). Yes, TT, Beastman Dailies mount and pet hunting, ext are fun, but they've been here a while.
Same with crafting, now that i have finally got into it as a side activity I actually found it really easy to cap scripts, but it's such a grind to even get to 60 with the amount of gathering mats (or money to buy them) you need, and for what? Vanity gear and housing furniture, which only goes so far since we only have so much room in our houses and most of the player base can't even buy one.
What exists now for casual content doesn't have a very impressive upper ceiling to get people to keep running it (outside RNG). TT, Chocobo racing, (and he Gold Saucer altogether), Hunts, Scripts, Esos, almost all of this has the exact same rewards it did at launch as well as being continuations of 2.X stuff.
I am actually ok with Normal and Final Coil as they are, but there should have been more in between (and more added to the casual content), especially since May. The fact that most people aren't going to be interested in doing a lot of the content (more people have ignored crafting for example) means that they should probably be updated on a more regular basis.
I think 90% of the complaining wouldn't be here if the patch were out already.
I'm complaining about the future though. If there was proof of them ending the current content cycle formula - then I would be fine.
But the main issue is reward simplification. There's not enough variety in possible rewards to be able to create a tangible reason to run more content then the current content cycle.
You have your low-tier gear, your currency gear, your mid-tier gear, your upgrade items for currency gear, and your high-tier gear. Then glamours, mounts (which are usually relegated to revenue generation in collector editions, recruitment, cash shop, etc - or high grinding content), and minions which are useless in game since most of the game is played in duties.
That's just enough reward variety and they refuse to add meaningful sub-stats (things like haste, situational stats, action / job ability stats, etc) to gear to create that reward variety. Which allows both more gear options, as well as older gear to still be relevant situationally.
Padding my argument? What argument? That the development team has a hard time delivering full sized expansions AND frequent patches simultaneously? I'd say that's more of a fact at this point.
I think 90% of the complaining wouldn't be here if the patch were out already.
I don't disagree with the complaints though. At least with several of them
They need to find more middle content (been saying this forever) and stick to that as a primary focus, at least as much as raiding. Current completion rates are telling. You can't make a theme part MMO for the leveling process and then close all the casual content rides at 60 (or i should say not update the old ones). Yes, TT, Beastman Dailies mount and pet hunting, ext are fun, but they've been here a while.
Same with crafting, now that i have finally got into it as a side activity I actually found it really easy to cap scripts, but it's such a grind to even get to 60 with the amount of gathering mats (or money to buy them) you need, and for what? Vanity gear and housing furniture, which only goes so far since we only have so much room in our houses and most of the player base can't even buy one.
What exists now for casual content doesn't have a very impressive upper ceiling to get people to keep running it (outside RNG). TT, Chocobo racing, (and he Gold Saucer altogether), Hunts, Scripts, Esos, almost all of this has the exact same rewards it did at launch as well as being continuations of 2.X stuff.
I am actually ok with Normal and Final Coil as they are, but there should have been more in between (and more added to the casual content), especially since May. The fact that most people aren't going to be interested in doing a lot of the content (more people have ignored crafting for example) means that they should probably be updated on a more regular basis.
Gonna agree with most of this here. In general the game doesn't have too much of a problem with casual content, but the middle tier was really thin in 3.0 (it's generally a bit thin historically, but especially in 3.0)
I'll also agree that the grind to even get into crafting is waaaaaaay too hefty. The Ixali dailies actually kinda helped this to an extent, since they allowed people to grind crafting for free so long as they didn't mind it taking a bit longer. However it's not really reasonable to get every crafter to 50 that way, and that's still essentially a necessity for being a good crafter at 60. Specialist Skills were supposed to fix that, but it feels like it really didn't.
tiggerkiddo
Member
Middle tier content? Was there ever any?
Well, I consider most Extreme Primals to be middle tier, with some of the harder ones hitting the highest end of said middle tier. Additionally, if Alexander Savage is the new high tier, that'd make FCoB retroactively middle tier, but I'm not really sure it should work that way. <_<;;
I would also call 24 mans middle tier, at least for the first few weeks. Granted, by that logic Alexander NM for middle tier for a few weeks. <_<;;
I would also call content that isn't complex, but still requires people to be on the ball (output max DPS, use your cooldowns, manage those mobs, sleep that etc etc,) to be middle teir. I hope that's the sort of thing Sky Island Exploration brings to the table.
Bismarck EX, Ravana EX, Alexander NM, and Void Ark (presumably) would be your current and near future mid tier content.
You were the one that AFK's world of darkness like 50 times, you should be agreeing with me on that.
Not going to agree with anyone who puts gold saucer into a useless tier. Also, I didn't afk WoD
Final Fantasy XIV is Losing My interest
I think this is a good read.
First off, it's not an alarmist "the game is doomed!" rant, but rather a pretty good argument in favor of the game better explaining its techniques, shortening the gap between the skilled and unskilled gamers, and the introduction of far more mid-tier content.
And I agree. The game's difficulty curve tends to range from very simple and easy to maddeningly challenging and difficult, with very little middle ground, and MOST players, by level 50, can get away with enough bad technique and bad habits that it's extremely hard to break them (I speak from personal experience myself on this. I had to watch several videos to fully know what my job roles actually were, and I'm STILL a fairly awful level 53 Tank even with that knowledge).
I think this is a good read.
First off, it's not an alarmist "the game is doomed!" rant, but rather a pretty good argument in favor of the game better explaining its techniques, shortening the gap between the skilled and unskilled gamers, and the introduction of far more mid-tier content.
And I agree. The game's difficulty curve tends to range from very simple and easy to maddeningly challenging and difficult, with very little middle ground, and MOST players, by level 50, can get away with enough bad technique and bad habits that it's extremely hard to break them (I speak from personal experience myself on this. I had to watch several videos to fully know what my job roles actually were, and I'm STILL a fairly awful level 53 Tank even with that knowledge).
This post is so bad lol no, not everyone thinks exactly like you. Not everyone plays to raid.
What does Golden Saucer impact in the rest of the game? How does doing something in Golden Saucer change what you do in dungeons or primal fights?
I do it to inspire my adopted fat chocobo chick. Why do YOU do it?
Why does Gold Saucer need to impact dungeons or primal fights exactly?
Not everyone plays this game for the end game PvE. I'm aware that this is a point that is completely lost on you.
Gold Saucer doesn't need to impact the rest of the game outside glamour. it's a casino. You might as well ask that about RL casinos too (at least this one doesn't leave you in debt).
I also don't think it's a good idea to try to categorize content that isn't actually out yet (Airship ventures). Feel free to complain about it after you know enough about it to actually judge it with some objection.
Good post about the difficulty curve though. It's pretty bad and makes people not want to leave their statics to do content with others (speaking of which, I'd love some incentive for doing content with others that DID NOT cheapen my static experiences).
Of course I'm talking about me though - I want a game designed for what I want. Don't you?
I just think a lot of players don't want what you want, necessarily.
I mean, I want Final Fantasy XIV to be nothing but a collection of Hildibrand quests and Godbert supplexes. We can't all get what we want.
That's fine and I said I wasn't going to agree with someone who put GS into a useless tier. We disagreed and then you told me that "most people" would agree with you. Considering you pulled that logic out of thin air, I reminded you that not everyone thinks like you do. You then brought it back to be about you again. Idk, I disagree with you and you obviously have a skewed perspective of what people want from the game. I don't know what to tell you.