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[iammeiam]

There is no way to play this game and not at least acknowledge it's heavily slanted towards sexualizing female characters. See also: Female DRG AF. But if you play at max zoom everyone's just flesh-toned blobs anyway so who cares can we at least fight over something unique to this game?

Haurchefant sucks.

Bara looks better than everyone, he's a Roe, I'm not seeing the problem???

Bookey is now also a Roe though.

 

[Sorian]

Haurchefant sucks.

Wow, I thought our rivalry was just a jokey thing. I didn't know it was like this.

 

[irfaanator]

Haurchefant sucks.

you have no bounds do you

 

[Jayhawk]

All this glamour talk could be put towards entries for the giveaway!

 

[Tabris]

Yes, except the issue was two people spewing venom in a public place with people new to the game visiting our community. I'm trying to avoid the shit posting that you are trying to drag right back in by starting with agreement on Drama, she's just as guilty in this non-sense.

Also, I'm not on trial, sure I'm sexist or something, I enjoy my half naked dragon girl when I'm sitting there bored waiting for a queue. Oh well, defense out.

I don't see how talking about sexism in this game is shit posting?

Also why for the bolded? I'm legitimately curious what you enjoy about it?

There is no way to play this game and not at least acknowledge it's heavily slanted towards sexualizing female characters. See also: Female DRG AF. But if you play at max zoom everyone's just flesh-toned blobs anyway so who cares can we at least fight over something unique to this game?

But the dress up element and people's choices are unique to this game.

 

[Sorian]

I don't see how talking about sexism in this game is shit posting?

Also why for the bolded? I'm legitimately curious what you enjoy about it?



But the dress up element and people's choices are unique to every MMO in existence.

Your topic choice isn't the shit posting, it's the timing of when you feel like doing this.

I tend to fall on the lower half of the Kinsey scale so I find myself sexually attracted to the female gender. That's really about it. Sometimes I dress my character up like a spiffy mage, sometimes I make them half naked /shrug

Fixed the bolded for you.

 

[iammeiam]

Wow, I thought our rivalry was just a jokey thing. I didn't know it was like this.

you have no bounds do you

I'm a rebel.

But the dress up element and people's choices are unique to this game.

Scantily clad female avatars, cutesy moe characters, and scantily clad moe characters are part and parcel of a pretty decent chunk of the MMO space. It's not unique to this game and really taking a look at the situation would need to expand outside FFXIV anyway--There's basically nothing in FFXIV on the level of what TERA does to female armor, for example. It's not that I don't think there's things that could be discussed on the subject, so much as dredging them up in this thread tends to be more about taking individual posters to task than analyzing something specific to FFXIV's player culture itself.

 

[Sifl]

Dw guys, my cat girl is dressed very nice and unprovacitvely. The game is saved.

 

[Sorian]

Dw guys, my cat girl is dressed very nice and unprovacitvely. The game is saved.

Real talk, I actually want to collect the plague bringer set but I only have the coat and fuck running dungeons.

Spoiler

Was leeching first player bonus off of someone the other day and accidently passed on the sweet mask RIP

 

[Tabris]

Yeah but this is one of the most prominent MMO thread on GAF and only MMO I've played outside of FFXI which was limited on technology for dress up time this game has. This topic isn't big enough for it's own thread, so where else would I ask this?

The fact this shit doesn't get talked about and confronted is what allows it to propagate.

Japan Otaku culture and sexism inherent in that society is it's own problem, so it makes sense economically why a lot of those game decisions are made in Japanese and Korean MMOs. That part of the culture has a lot of maturing to do.

I am talking about the western gamers who chose to partake.

I tend to fall on the lower half of the Kinsey scale so I find myself sexually attracted to the female gender. That's really about it. Sometimes I dress my character up like a spiffy mage, sometimes I make them half naked /shrug

I'm also attracted to the female gender. Not sure what that has to do with sexism though? Why do you need to be attracted to your digital character in an MMO?

 

[Sorian]

Yeah but this is one of the most prominent MMO thread on GAF and only MMO I've played outside of FFXI which was limited on technology for dress up time this game has. This topic isn't big enough for it's own thread, so where else would I ask this?

The fact this shit doesn't get talked about and confronted is what allows it to propagate.

Japan Otaku culture and sexism inherent in that society is it's own problem, so it makes sense economically why a lot of those game decisions are made in Japanese and Korean MMOs. That part of the culture has a lot of growing up to do.

I am talking about the western gamers who chose to partake.



I'm also attracted to the female gender. Not sure what that has to do with sexism though? Why do you need to be attracted to your digital character in an MMO?

It 100% is big enough for it's own topic, you could cite any MMO with a "glamour" system and see similar happening. Not sure how much bigger it needs to be to be deserving of a topic? Hell, it even ripples out to single player experiences that offer the same type of costume control.

I'm not sure what your last question is supposed to be looking for other than an opinion answer though. I don't see the character I created as an avatar for myself or a way to inject myself into the game. It's a third party individual that I had creative control over and then tell to run around and hit things for levels and loot. I chose to make it a female character that I find appealing. That's really all there is to it, there is no need to it, I can so I did.

 

[Pyramidbread]

People dress their characters however they like, I don't see the big issue here. IMO, none of the costumes in FFXIV come across overly skimpy, sure people can glamour their character to be nearly naked, but so what? It's their character, I've seen more semi naked male roes than semi naked female characters tbqh. FFXIV's female armour for the most part its pretty much the same as male armour, with only a few exceptions.

 

[kuroneko0509]

I normally don't agree with drama but she's right on.

I would like to have a conversation on people glamour choices and wanna see then defend them as anything but sexist or creepy.

How is a cat girl in a bikini outfit not sexist? This isn't a game about a day at the pool.

How is a lalafell dressed up in provocative outfit not creepy loli fetish?

It's s valid debate for this game.

No it's really not. And this discussion was had elsewhere and the topic was locked. Just take a look at the posts in there, it was conclusion that it was not sexism but more so sexuality and it's the choice of the player, not developers forcing such things:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1155752

Please stop the derailing and feeding of Drama and Unknown.

To quote Finale whos blatant on the defense on such matters:

After spending some time away from this thread and thinking about some of my posts, especially in the beginning, I feel like a huge ass hole and am embarrassed by how I treated the Ryan.

I misjudged the intention of this thread and treated him unfairly. I attributed his topic to misogyny and was really aggressive as a result. I misunderstood him and didn't even attempt to meet him half way before berating his supposed politics.

And that sucks, because that's all on me, and I should be much more thoughtful than that. Maybe OP could have presented his topic better, but I was still strongly reactionary. I stand by everything I said later in the thread, but we wouldn't have been having that caliber of conversation if people like me hadn't reacted so harshly in the first place.

All OP was really asking was how you dressed your custom characters. But I read it as a sexist manifesto. My anger was really misplaced and I apologize for how I contributed to this thread's polarization.

Let this be a lesson to me to pick my battles better. Not every conversation about sex is inherently a sexist issue doesn't always call for extensive social rhetoric. This one, in hindsight, definitely didn't.

 

[Tabris]

It 100% is big enough for it's own topic, you could cite any MMO with a "glamour" system and see similar happening. Not sure how much bigger it needs to be to be deserving of a topic? Hell, it even ripples out to single player experiences that offer the same type of costume control.

I'm not sure what your last question is supposed to be looking for other than an opinion answer though. I don't see the character I created as an avatar for myself or a way to inject myself into the game. It's a third party individual that I had creative control over and then tell to run around and hit things for levels and loot. I chose to make it a female character that I find appealing. That's really all there is to it, there is no need to it, I can so I did.

I would be concerned hitting a mod who's into Moe / Loli culture.

But didn't answer the root question - why do you need to be attracted to a digital character in an MMO? Do you not see an issue with the sexism?

People dress their characters however they like, I don't see the big issue here. IMO, none of the costumes in FFXIV come across overly skimpy, sure people can glamour their character to be nearly naked, but so what? It's their character, I've seen more semi naked male roes than semi naked female characters tbqh. FFXIV's female armour for the most part its pretty much the same as male armour, with only a few exceptions.

You don't see the issue with this?

And yes, half naked male roes are sexist too.

 

[Sorian]

I would be concerned hitting a mod who's into Moe / Loli culture.

But didn't answer the root question - why do you need to be attracted to a digital character in an MMO? Do you not see an issue with the sexism?



You don't see the issue with this?



And yes, half naked male roes are sexist too.

I answered your question in the very thing you quoted. And no, I don't see sexism in making your digital character half naked.

Also (I only see three of the pictures you linked, I think there might be 4? and the 4th is being hit by my work filter), I see nothing wrong with any of those pictures except for the weird little girl from BnS.

Edit: Oh sorry, the 3 pictures I'm able to see are the BnS picture, the sailor outfit, and the two miqote next to each other in the bikini tops. Probably pertinent to know what I'm referring to.

Also bonus laugh since the bikini picture is bad to you when they are actually at the beach/resort location in the game but anything to further that agenda.

 

[Pyramidbread]

The two top ones are a little weird, but Lalafells in the game are full grown adults, who scheme, murder, lie, cheat, they arent children. The pic from the other game I have no idea about. I'd never ask anyone to explain why they dressed their character the way they did.

and so what if the Miqo'te are in skimpy clothing? Even in game lore they are a race that are quite sexualised, with Ul'dahnian's hiring them as dancers.

The bottom picture is actually an unplayable npc who is actually a Miqo'te child, one of the only two seen in the game.

 

[Sorian]

The bottom picture is actually an unplayable npc who is actually a Miqo'te child, one of the only two seen in the game.

Oh, he linked that one again? So, literally cherry picking what he finds convenient without any background knowledge, got it.

 

[Frumix]

Miniskirts are a tool of regressive Asian society, you heard it here first.
Gosh, the game really is dead.

 

[Sandfox]

The vast majority of those images are a stretch.

 

[Tabris]

I answered your question in the very thing you quoted. And no, I don't see sexism in making your digital character half naked.

You didn't quite answer it. You said it's visually appealing but before you talked about Kinsey Scale. So it's not just about being visually appealing but attractive if you're quoting Kinsey Scale.

It's a game where you are battling monsters in a fantasy setting. Your character isn't an exotic dancer or a beach resort attendant where it may fit to wear that kind of outfit. So it doesn't make sense in the context of the game.

So you're playing up dress up on a character to make them look overtly sexualized in no way related to the game and setting but to what you are attracted to. Why don't you just watch porn in that case then play the game? That makes sense in the context of the media at least.

But even with all that said, that's nothing even close to the real problem. The real issue is playing dress up on characters that look pre-pubescent. It's creepy.

 

[iammeiam]

Legit surprised none of those screenshots feature the Coliseum sets.

The most awkward I ever feel in the game is leveling through DD and running around with the Coliseum stuff on a lalafell. I throw them out every time I replace them, and the appropriate garb always drops within like the first two runs on a new job.

 

[Sorian]

You didn't quite answer it. You said it's visually appealing but before you talked about Kinsey Scale. So it's not just about being visually appealing but attractive if you're quoting Kinsey Scale.

It's a game where you are battling monsters in a fantasy setting. Your character isn't an exotic dancer or a beach resort attendant where it may fit to wear that kind of outfit. So it doesn't make sense in the context of the game.

So you're playing up dress up on a character to make them look overtly sexualized in no way related to the game and setting but to what you are attracted to. Why don't you just watch porn in that case? That makes sense in the context of the media at least.

But even with all that said, that's nothing even close to the real problem. The real issue is playing dress up on characters that look pre-pubescent. It's creepy.

Oh sorry, visually attractive* My mistake, used improper wording. Doesn't change anything else I've said and nothing you've really said means much? I was unaware that the purpose of the glamour system was for me to always keep on theme appropriate wear.

Also, while the bolded is an issue, let's cut the shit, if that were your only gripe you wouldn't be posting screenshots of characters that obviously look to be adults.

 

[Frumix]

So you're playing up dress up on a character to make them look overtly sexualized in no way related to the game and setting but to what you are attracted to. Why don't you just watch porn in that case? That makes sense in the context of the media at least.

Attraction, eroticism and human sexuality are a bit more complex than "I want to rub one out so I look at titties". The bolded sentence outs a complete dumbass every time it's uttered.

 

[Sandfox]

You didn't quite answer it. You said it's visually appealing but before you talked about Kinsey Scale. So it's not just about being visually appealing but attractive if you're quoting Kinsey Scale.

It's a game where you are battling monsters in a fantasy setting. Your character isn't an exotic dancer or a beach resort attendant where it may fit to wear that kind of outfit. So it doesn't make sense in the context of the game.

So you're playing up dress up on a character to make them look overtly sexualized in no way related to the game and setting but to what you are attracted to.

But even with all that said, that's nothing even close to the real problem. The real issue is playing dress up on characters that look pre-pubescent. It's creepy.

The only characters you can argue look pre-pubescent are Lalafells and even then they clearly arent' since they can grow beards and stuff. They also, afren'ty even a top 3 race in usage and the number of people who sexualize them through glamour are probably an even smaller group so it doesn't' exactly fit your argument from yesterday.

 

[Pyramidbread]

The only characters you can argue look pre-pubescent are Lalafells and even then they clearly arent' since they can grow beards and stuff. They also, afren'ty even a top 3 race in usage and the number of people who sexualize them through glamour are probably an even smaller group so it doesn't' exactly fit your argument from yesterday.

Pretty much this, the overwhelming majority of female Lalafell are dressed a lot more conservatively than that one picture, which isnt even from A Realm Reborn anyway, lol.

 

[Sorian]

Riou, do you prefer a moving the goal posts gif or a backpedaling gif?

 

[Tabris]

Riou, do you prefer a moving the goal posts gif or a backpedaling gif?

Definitely neither.

I think dressing up a digital character that is a cat girl with highly sexual emotes in a bikini outfit reeks of sexism and sexual objectification.

I was just defining that the moe / loli aspect of lalafell dress up is even worse.

I don't backpedal. You should know that. I would rather dig into the trench and lose everyone then retreat

 

[Sorian]

Definitely neither.

I think dressing up a digital character that is a cat girl with highly sexual emotes in a bikini outfit reeks of sexism and sexual objectification.

I was just defining that the moe / loli aspect of lalafell dress up is even worse.

I don't backpedal. You should know that. I would rather dig into the trench and lose everyone then retreat

Sexual objectification is a really hard argument to make when you are talking about a literal object. The behavior you are talking about can be indicative of sexism but the behavior itself is not sexist.

 

[Jayhawk]

Riou, do you prefer a moving the goal posts gif or a backpedaling gif?

What about a moving set of goal posts pedalling backwards on a unicycle? Can you do it?

 

[Kagari]

The outfits exist because cosplay. I'm not saying I agree with them though.

 

[Sorian]

What about a moving set of goal posts pedalling backwards on a unicycle? Can you do it?

I don't actually make things, I just steal them from the internet. You'd think that existed but with a quick glance, I see nothing.

 

[VanillaCakeIsBurning]

Haurchefant sucks.

Enjoy your ban.

 

[Sorian]

Enjoy your ban.

Seriously, Kagari is slacking.

Spoiler

inb4 my ban

 

[Moaradin]

what is even this thread lol

 

[dramatis]

Sexual objectification is a really hard argument to make when you are talking about a literal object. The behavior you are talking about can be indicative of sexism but the behavior itself is not sexist.

Riiiiiiiight

A burnt cross on a black family's doorstep is obviously just a behavior "indicative of racism", but the behavior itself is not racist

It's a pretty hard argument to make because a cross is just a literal object

Back up and rethink, you're probably not communicating right

 

[kuroneko0509]

Riiiiiiiight

A burnt cross on a black family's doorstep is obviously just a behavior "indicative of racism", but the behavior itself is not racist

It's a pretty hard argument to make because a cross is just a literal object

Back up and rethink, you're probably not communicating right

And . . .

After spending some time away from this thread and thinking about some of my posts, especially in the beginning, I feel like a huge ass hole and am embarrassed by how I treated the Ryan.

I misjudged the intention of this thread and treated him unfairly. I attributed his topic to misogyny and was really aggressive as a result. I misunderstood him and didn't even attempt to meet him half way before berating his supposed politics.

And that sucks, because that's all on me, and I should be much more thoughtful than that. Maybe OP could have presented his topic better, but I was still strongly reactionary. I stand by everything I said later in the thread, but we wouldn't have been having that caliber of conversation if people like me hadn't reacted so harshly in the first place.

All OP was really asking was how you dressed your custom characters. But I read it as a sexist manifesto. My anger was really misplaced and I apologize for how I contributed to this thread's polarization.

Let this be a lesson to me to pick my battles better. Not every conversation about sex is inherently a sexist issue doesn't always call for extensive social rhetoric. This one, in hindsight, definitely didn't.

 

[Kagari]

This thread is really off topic now... please.

 

[Sorian]

meh, not going to bother what with kagari's post right above me.

 

[Tabris]

Drama is right on.

Kagari, is it off topic though? It's an issue in the video game which this thread is about? If you still think it is, obviously nothing I can do about it and it kills the debate right there so I'll drop it.

EDIT - It's like having a conversation about elitism in MMOs in this thread because it relates heavily to this game and we're talking from this game's perspective.

 

[VanillaCakeIsBurning]

Make a topic in General Gaming about it. The discussion is broad and covers everything, while the elitism stuff that gets talked about in here is specific to what people do in this game and its community.

 

[kuroneko0509]

Make a topic in General Gaming about it. The discussion is broad and covers everything, while the elitism stuff that gets talked about in here is specific to what people do in this game and its community.

There was already a similar topic and it was locked. Which means there's no merit to the discussion.

 

[Tabris]

Make a topic in General Gaming about it. The discussion is broad and covers everything, while the elitism stuff that gets talked about in here is specific to what people do in this game and its community.

But the discussion is exactly specific to this game and it's community. I am talking about lalafell being moe / loli and that the dress up thing is creepy. I am talking about sexual objectification with the cat girls with bikinis and emotes. I am talking about specific people in this community that I know like this and asking why they do to debate it.

There was already a similar topic and it was locked. Which means there's no merit to the conversation.

That topic was poorly framed and was from the opposite perspective "I like dressing up my characters". Our debate stater is "Why do you like dressing up your character and do you not see an issue with it?"

 

[Pyramidbread]

I was thinking earlier on, how will they go about doing the hard mode dungeons in 4.0? As they mentioned access to Ishgard wont be essential for entering 4.0

 

[kuroneko0509]

But the discussion is exactly specific to this game and it's community. I am talking about lalafell being moe / loli and that the dress up thing is creepy. I am talking about sexual objectification with the cat girls with bikinis and emotes. I am talking about specific people in this community that I know like this and asking why they do to debate it.



That topic was poorly framed and was from the opposite perspective "I like dressing up my characters". Our debate stater is "Why do you like dressing up your character and do you not see an issue with it?"

I wish you best of luck but I imagine the discussion will go the same way with the same posters, and will get locked. But have a blast wasting your time!

 

[VanillaCakeIsBurning]

There was already a similar topic and it was locked. Which means there's no merit to the discussion.

Unless they made a rule saying no discussion on this topic ever then another thread is ok as long as it doesn't get derailed, at which point the mods will step in to lock like any other thread.

I don't think there's any doubt that if there's an in-game metric for player performance others can see, people will find ways to be dicks about it. If the dummies are implemented in a way that's unfair to specific jobs or favors others, it has the potential to make things awkward as people probably won't bother to understand that since nuance is hard.

I'm honestly mostly curious about the dummies to see where SE thinks players should be; I don't see anything from them about them being job specific which would automatically make them considerably less useful. If they max out at "sustain 1k dps for 3 minutes" they're not really going to tell us much.

I think they said you will have a time limit to defeat the dummy depending on which one you are fighting. In that case I suppose it will be required to hit a certain amount of DPS within a time limit whatever that happens to be. DPS classes as far as I know ramp up a bit differently depending on how their skills work.

But the test is to jsut kill the thing period with no metrics given to you so I guess counting actual DPS per second over the course of it won't matter as long as you kill the dummy in the end.

 

[Sorian]

But the discussion is exactly specific to this game and it's community. I am talking about lalafell being moe / loli and that the dress up thing is creepy. I am talking about sexual objectification with the cat girls with bikinis and emotes. I am talking about specific people in this community that I know like this and asking why they do to debate it.

"And I will prove my point with a picture from blade and soul!"

 

[Isaccard]

Haurchefant sucks.

Kagari pls

 

[irfaanator]

I was thinking earlier on, how will they go about doing the hard mode dungeons in 4.0? As they mentioned access to Ishgard wont be essential for entering 4.0

you mean expert roulette? It'll just be new dungeons. Hard dungeons arent really harder versions of existing dungeons in reality. Just different takes on the dungeon at current levels

 

[docbon]

p. sure the correct translation is horsefart

 

[iammeiam]

I'm pretty sure they only said you won't need the HW MSQ to get the 4.0 MSQ. They can still put optional stuff in 4.0 that requires things in Ishgard, since it seems super likely you'll need all the expansions anyway, the goal is to just avoid "I just hit 60 and now have 20 hours of irrelevant story to do before I can get to the shiny new expansion, life sucks."

I think they said you will have a time limit to defeat the dummy depending on which one you are fighting. In that case I suppose it will be required to hit a certain amount of DPS within a time limit whatever that happens to be. DPS classes as far as I know ramp up a bit differently depending on how their skills work.

But the test is to jsut kill the thing period with no metrics given to you so I guess counting actual DPS per second over the course of it won't matter as long as you kill the dummy in the end.

If they go for a more stringent DPS requirement, the timeframe involved kind of becomes relevant because different classes will get damage spikes at different points of time. I run a burst class which means my DPS fluctuates quite a bit depending on where in the fight you cut me off. Running an encounter long enough to really even out the burst and sustained runs the risk of resource starvation in a lot of jobs. There's also that some jobs have a much higher overall DPS potential than others, so if the dummies aren't job-specific the skill involved at a job to beat the dummy will vary pretty wildly.

So the question is how stringent these tests are even going to end up being--if the Advanced DPS Dummy just tests to see if you can average out to 1K DPS over the course of a three minute fight, it'll be fairly useless. The ideal would be job-specific things designed around their idea of ideal play of each job, but we'll probably end up with more of a bare minimum competence test that lopsidedly favors some jobs over others.