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Final Fantasy XIV: Heavensward |OT| The Midas Touch

B

BadRNG

Member
Ken said:
No but your current avatar is bad.
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206636171_0021c26a2e.jpg
 
K

Ken

Member


Krile da best and worth taking up half the last live letter.

Actual content preview {Don't worry about it}
 
W

WolvenOne

Member
Okay GAF, maybe you can explain this to me. Why the flipping heck are some players so annoyed that tank classes can contribute to DPS in this game?

I mean, it's not like anyone is being forced to dps in most content. Even the raids you could get by without, it just takes longer is all.
 
F

Frumix

Suffering From Success
WolvenOne said:
Okay GAF, maybe you can explain this to me. Why the flipping heck are some players so annoyed that tank classes can contribute to DPS in this game?

I mean, it's not like anyone is being forced to dps in most content. Even the raids you could get by without, it just takes longer is all.
Click to expand...

lol
 
A

Apoptomon

Member
WolvenOne said:
Okay GAF, maybe you can explain this to me. Why the flipping heck are some players so annoyed that tank classes can contribute to DPS in this game?

I mean, it's not like anyone is being forced to dps in most content. Even the raids you could get by without, it just takes longer is all.
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Wait what... you mean like stance-dance, right? Why would that be annoying? Unless the enmity tug-of-war is stupidly tight, it would only be doing good rather than harm. (I ask 'cause the way you worded it kind of made me picture OT's just standing around doing nothing (like a healer might between cure spells) and people can't be that silly, can they(?))
 
W

WolvenOne

Member
Frumix said:
lol
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I didn't say it was a good idea, just that it was doable. Honestly I'm not sure why anyone would play that way, that's why I'm asking.

Apoptomon said:
Wait what... you mean like stance-dance, right? Why would that be annoying? Unless the enmity tug-of-war is stupidly tight, it would only be doing good rather than harm. (I ask 'cause the way you worded it kind of made me picture OT's just standing around doing nothing (like a healer might between cure spells) and people can't be that silly, can they(?))
Click to expand...

I'm talking things like, going full fending, not trying to time offensive cooldown well, that sort of thing.

I've seen tanks that play ultra passively until there's some sort of mechanic or tank buster to deal with. I kinda assume that these are the players most likely to be complaining about other tanks DPSing.
 
M

Meciu

Member
Does anyone here plays on absolute MAX settings at 144Hz and 1440p? If yes, than how many FPS do you get? Mines a bit low and I dunno if it's because of the max settings which is just too much for my new PC or it's just absolutely normal to get numers like that and it's not a problem with it (PC).
 
T

Talaysen

Member
WolvenOne said:
I didn't say it was a good idea, just that it was doable. Honestly I'm not sure why anyone would play that way, that's why I'm asking.
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Have you found a group clearing A3S/A4S without tanks using DPS stances and healers not using Cleric Stance? I am doubting that it is doable with the current available gear. (Maybe A3S is...)
 
W

WolvenOne

Member
Talaysen said:
Have you found a group clearing A3S/A4S without tanks using DPS stances and healers not using Cleric Stance? I am doubting that it is doable with the current available gear. (Maybe A3S is...)
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Nope, haven't, which isn't exactly surprising mind you. That said, it should be doable, but group's would need to be extremely well geared, and every DPS would have to REALLY maximize thier class.
 
K

Ken

Member
People complaining about DPS tanks are usually tanks who believe their only job is to be a literal meat shield.

Probably no different from DPS complaining about the existence of parsers.
 
T

Talaysen

Member
WolvenOne said:
I'm talking things like, going full fending, not trying to time offensive cooldown well, that sort of thing.

I've seen tanks that play ultra passively until there's some sort of mechanic or tank buster to deal with. I kinda assume that these are the players most likely to be complaining about other tanks DPSing.
Click to expand...

I was queueing some A4 normal with a healer friend tonight. Usually I MT that fight but two times the other tank pulled right away so I took the OT position. Both times, the tank was too busy DPSing and lost hate to the healer early and often, even when she was using Shroud of Saints. This is the kind of crap that this whole tank DPS meta is encouraging and one of the reasons why I hate that it exists. Tanks are constantly judged not by how well they can tank, but how much DPS they put out, which causes tanks (probably mostly newer tanks, but not only those) to worry only about that instead of doing their primary role.

That and the fact that I'm forced to do two roles in raids: tank and DPS. If I wanted to DPS I would've played a DPS class.

I also have to constantly ask my healers things like "hey... is it okay if I let Storm's Path fall off here and make your life harder? I need that extra damage...". I thought my job as a tank was to make things easier on my healers, not harder. But when we're staring at A4S enrage, I have to start cutting some corners, and it's not even any harder for me since the healers are the ones that have to deal with it.

WolvenOne said:
Nope, haven't, which isn't exactly surprising mind you. That said, it should be doable, but group's would need to be extremely well geared, and every DPS would have to REALLY maximize thier class.
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If by "extremely well geared" you are counting things such as the weapon from clearing the raid and Diadem gear, then that is not really fair. The former for pretty obvious reasons and the latter because it didn't even exist until patch 3.1, long after the raid should have been clearable.

Also, forcing DPS to completely optimize their rotations around the fight is much more demanding than pushing out a little more tank DPS.

Ken said:
People complaining about DPS tanks are usually tanks who believe their only job is to be a literal meat shield.
Click to expand...

PhillipCostigan said:
people are fucking lazy.

Tanks and healers being adverse to DPSing is pure laziness.

Sign of a bad player.
Click to expand...

For some people, that may be it. For me, I just think it's not the right way to make tanking engaging. I do it because the game forces me to, not because I enjoy it.
 
W

WolvenOne

Member
Talaysen said:
I was queueing some A4 normal with a healer friend tonight. Usually I MT that fight but two times the other tank pulled right away so I took the OT position. Both times, the tank was too busy DPSing and lost hate to the healer early and often, even when she was using Shroud of Saints. This is the kind of crap that this whole tank DPS meta is encouraging and one of the reasons why I hate that it exists. Tanks are constantly judged not by how well they can tank, but how much DPS they put out, which causes tanks (probably mostly newer tanks, but not only those) to worry only about that instead of doing their primary role.

That and the fact that I'm forced to do two roles in raids: tank and DPS. If I wanted to DPS I would've played a DPS class.

I also have to constantly ask my healers things like "hey... is it okay if I let Storm's Path fall off here and make your life harder? I need that extra damage...". I thought my job as a tank was to make things easier on my healers, not harder. But when we're staring at A4S enrage, I have to start cutting some corners, and it's not even any harder for me since the healers are the ones that have to deal with it.



If by "extremely well geared" you are counting things such as the weapon from clearing the raid and Diadem gear, then that is not really fair. The former for pretty obvious reasons and the latter because it didn't even exist until patch 3.1, long after the raid should have been clearable.

Also, forcing DPS to completely optimize their rotations around the fight is much more demanding than pushing out a little more tank DPS.
Click to expand...

Well, if you're main tank you should be using the tank stance at least long enough to have solid hate before switching between stances. As main tank that's kinda optional though, at least for most content. Heck, in raid content MTing in dps stance can be pretty risky.
 
K

Ken

Member
WolvenOne said:
Well, if you're main tank you should be using the tank stance at least long enough to have solid hate before switching between stances. As main tank that's kinda optional though, at least for most content. Heck, in raid content MTing in dps stance can be pretty risky.
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thisisbait.jpg
 
P

PhillipCostigan

Member
Talaysen said:
I was queueing some A4 normal with a healer friend tonight. Usually I MT that fight but two times the other tank pulled right away so I took the OT position. Both times, the tank was too busy DPSing and lost hate to the healer early and often, even when she was using Shroud of Saints. This is the kind of crap that this whole tank DPS meta is encouraging and one of the reasons why I hate that it exists. Tanks are constantly judged not by how well they can tank, but how much DPS they put out, which causes tanks (probably mostly newer tanks, but not only those) to worry only about that instead of doing their primary role.

That and the fact that I'm forced to do two roles in raids: tank and DPS. If I wanted to DPS I would've played a DPS class.

I also have to constantly ask my healers things like "hey... is it okay if I let Storm's Path fall off here and make your life harder? I need that extra damage...". I thought my job as a tank was to make things easier on my healers, not harder. But when we're staring at A4S enrage, I have to start cutting some corners, and it's not even any harder for me since the healers are the ones that have to deal with it.
Click to expand...

but... that is also just a bad tank! Good tanks can pump out really good DPS while also keeping hate. A bad tank probably doing bad DPS and not being able to keep enmity is a bad player.

what do you find engaging about pressing 1-2-3 while facing the boss and being healed? If anything the engagement of playing tank classes in this game comes from balancing offence and defence, finding ways to push the damage you can put out while still tanking.

it's the same as healers saying "if I wanted to DPS I would play DPS" as they afk waiting for the tank's HP to drop instead of casting a DoT or whatever. It's people being lazy and doing the bare minimum to get by while the good players actually try. I don't want to play with people like that.
 
O

Omni

Member
umm no

we're healers. not healanddpsers. Even says so in the game. Personally, I don't even have Stone/Holy/Aero mapped on any of my hotbars
 
K

Ken

Member
Ayumi said:
This looks extremely annoying: http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/A_Relic_Reborn_(Curtana)

Is it worth it? Should I bother?

めちゃくちゃめんどくさい
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No, unless you want it for glamour.

If you're looking for a level 50 weapon just spend some poetics at Mor Dhona for Ironworks sword and Carbontwine to take it to i130. That'll last you until 60 if you can't pick up an upgrade from the level 57 dungeon.
 
F

Frumix

Suffering From Success
A4S is not doable without sufficient tank/healer DPS.
End of story.
Let's just sacrifice 1500+ raid DPS why not

Tanks don't even really have an argument here because the only way they're making it harder for healers is if they use DPS stance and if you're not in DPS stance while no damage is coming your way, why?
 
S

SliceSabre

Banned
At the end of the day if the tank is keeping hate and tanking well, the dps are doing good damage and dodging attacks and the healers are healing well or healing and buffing in AST case.

Then I have no complaints.

Despite what many in this thread bemoan are bad healers and tanks, the vast majority of the FFXIV community are casual and don't actually give a shit that a healer is not helping dps or that the tank always stays in tank stance.

Now as someone who mains healer I do help dps sometimes in PUGs. But if I suspect the tank is an idiot I won't.
 
K

Ken

Member
SliceSabre said:
At the end of the day if the tank is keeping hate and tanking well, the dps are doing good damage and dodging attacks and the healers are healing well or healing and buffing in AST case.

Then I have no complaints.

Despite what many in this thread bemoan are bad healers and tanks, the vast majority of the FFXIV community are casual and don't actually give a shit that a healer is not helping dps or that the tank always stays in tank stance.

Now as someone who mains healer I do help dps sometimes in PUGs. But if I suspect the tank is an idiot I won't.
Click to expand...

I don't really care either in casual/DF content. I'll very rarely, if ever, ask someone to do something outside of their comfort zone or role in those settings.
 
A

Ayumi

Member
Ken said:
No, unless you want it for glamour.

If you're looking for a level 50 weapon just spend some poetics at Mor Dhona for Ironworks sword and Carbontwine to take it to i130. That'll last you until 60 if you can't pick up an upgrade from the level 57 dungeon.
Click to expand...

Understood, thank you!

Edit: OKAY I GET IT. I gotta do 100 more quests first. Oh god.
"To access Ishgard, new area in Heavensward, you need to complete all of the 7th Astral Era Quests up to Before the Daw"

S....Sob.

Edit2: I don't even know anymore. FFXIV has so much content, my head is spinning of confusion.
 
F

Frumix

Suffering From Success
I care in casual content because there's no goddamn reason this next Stone Vigil run should take 50 minutes.

If you're new, it's okay. If you're not comfortable, it's okay. When you actively refuse advice and self-improvement, you should just get the hell out of the game.
 
K

Ken

Member
Frumix said:
I care in casual content because there's no goddamn reason this next Stone Vigil run should take 50 minutes.
Click to expand...

I don't think anything you say can fix that, short of dropping or vote dismiss. That's partly why I don't bother.

Ayumi said:
Understood, thank you!

Edit: OKAY I GET IT. I gotta do 100 more quests first. Oh god.
"To access Ishgard, new area in Heavensward, you need to complete all of the 7th Astral Era Quests up to Before the Daw"

S....Sob.
Click to expand...

If you just hit 50 then yeah, you've got all the MSQ to the end of 2.x to do.

/pet
 
F

Frumix

Suffering From Success
Ken said:
I don't think anything you say can fix that, short of dropping or vote dismiss. That's partly why I don't bother.
Click to expand...

I generally don't bother to say anything either, but I just don't understand this mentality of "I don't care that I'm wasting people's time". It's more toxic than actually telling people to get good because it fosters low level of skill in the community and forces developers to say shit like "Thordan was quite hard, we're gonna make things easier now", as well as remove any sign of interesting mechanics from dungeons. This is unhealthy for the game.
 
A

Arkeband

Banned
Apoptomon said:
Wait what... you mean like stance-dance, right? Why would that be annoying? Unless the enmity tug-of-war is stupidly tight, it would only be doing good rather than harm. (I ask 'cause the way you worded it kind of made me picture OT's just standing around doing nothing (like a healer might between cure spells) and people can't be that silly, can they(?))
Click to expand...

I'll give some more context to his question - he's coming here from Reddit to vent.

The topic was about tank stats and how damage output will most likely be affected in 3.2.

I had wrote that high tank DPS is usually something MMO's avoid, because it devalues pure DPS classes, since that's all they bring to a role.

He argued that tanks having such high DPS makes them 'fun'.

The discussion in no way, shape, or form advocated for tanks performing suboptimally, it was about the game design conforming to a model where warriors aren't pseudo-DPS.
 
K

Ken

Member
Arkeband said:
I'll give some more context to his question - he's coming here from Reddit to vent.

The topic was about tank stats and how damage output will most likely be affected in 3.2.

I had wrote that high tank DPS is usually something MMO's avoid, because it devalues pure DPS classes, since that's all they bring to a role.

He argued that tanks having such high DPS makes them 'fun'.

The discussion in no way, shape, or form advocated for tanks performing suboptimally, it was about the game design conforming to a model where warriors aren't pseudo-DPS.
Click to expand...

This?

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/3z8svo/patch_32_what_do_we_know/

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/3z8svo/patch_32_what_do_we_know/cyku1l4

SliceSabre said:
Wow way to trigger me Ken, these people in any game drive me to drink.
Click to expand...

Your avatar is reminding me to go check for new Kaga hent-I mean doujinshi.
 
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