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[Valor]

So console players are screwed until groups have already been going through Alexander for weeks.

Console players have been just as "screwed" since The Binding Coil of Bahamut opened. What has changed?

I legitimately have no idea why it wasn't rushed to be added to Gold Saucer.

Probably because on the list of "Important Things to Add to the Game", parsing yourself is at the bottom.

They can ask for their number but they'll still need to know what that means in the grand scheme of things.

The only people asking for parses know what the numbers mean in the grand scheme of things. Let's not make up imaginary situations where Sprout A wants himself parsed but doesn't know what he is expected to parse.

Edit: Oh man, dat Page 200 post, and it's all complaints, as per usual from me.

 

[iammeiam]

Console players have been just as "screwed" since The Binding Coil of Bahamut opened. What has changed?

Alongside that, I'm having a hard time imagining there's any sizable group of console players out there in endgame content who aren't being parsed by others in the group whether they want it or not. I can understand wanting self-parse to get an idea of dummy performance, but in actual content you are already always being parsed by somebody.

Edit: Oh man, dat Page 200 post, and it's all complaints, as per usual from me.

I am completely unsurprised to learn you're not on the superior 100 posts per page train.

 

[Jayhawk]

I am completely unsurprised to learn you're not on the superior 100 posts per page train.

Who's got time to scroll down that much per page?

 

[Rizzi]

Now go strangle it with fruit

What? Why would I strangle my chocobo? D:

 

[WolvenOne]

Honestly, as far as a training hall goes, I want two things.

Multi-Target parse training. On my Dragoon I'm not so good as keeping my DPS on fights with a lot of targets, like Leviathan. I end up tripping up on my own feet, so to speak.

One my toes training. Not entirely certain what this would entail, but anything that helped me learn to more quickly adjust to the unexpected would be appreciated.

 

[Trojita]

Alongside that, I'm having a hard time imagining there's any sizable group of console players out there in endgame content who aren't being parsed by others in the group whether they want it or not. I can understand wanting self-parse to get an idea of dummy performance, but in actual content you are already always being parsed by somebody.

Which is why Yoshi-P's decisions are just dumb. I understand it from the point of view of not wanting players getting mad at others for not performing, but users are already being parsed whether they want it to or not because the content itself demands high numbers in limited time checks.

Imagine if ACT was detected by Square-Enix and your account banned if you use it or if somehow ACT or an equivalent parser never worked at all. You'd be in the dark and never able to figure out why you couldn't clear something.

 

[scy]

They can ask for their number but they'll still need to know what that means in the grand scheme of things. Like will it have some rank at the end or something?

200 dps - You might want to use a skill besides auto-attack

300 dps - you need to get better

Though that won't tell them how they are doing in an actual fight.

Pretty much. A number means nothing without a frame of reference. Hell, we were doing some parsing to see the DPS gain from not having to DK and me just doing the Flank combo with no oGCDs, buffs, DoTs, etc. was holding like 360. Not exactly sure if adding buffs and oGCDs to that and breaking 400 should be treated as "doing good" as a Monk.

Probably because on the list of "Important Things to Add to the Game", parsing yourself is at the bottom.

It depends on how long they've been working on it, I guess. To me, Gold Saucer feels like a good place for this as some kind of mini-game. If they have an entire expanded mechanics training thing for this Training Hall, however, this changes things a lot. So ... we'll see.

Really though, it's just I wanted a DPS mini-game in Gold Saucer.

The only people asking for parses know what the numbers mean in the grand scheme of things.

I dunno, there's a large amount of questions on Reddit, BG, etc. that are basically "What's good DPS?" for certain encounters / gear levels. There needs to be some frame of reference.

My bigger concern is to how to give feedback to the player via this so they know how to improve.

 

[docbon]

They can ask for their number but they'll still need to know what that means in the grand scheme of things. Like will it have some rank at the end or something?

200 dps - You might want to use a skill besides auto-attack

300 dps - you need to get better

Though that won't tell them how they are doing in an actual fight.

an alternative for maximum dps healers such as myself:

200 dps - You might want to consider actually healing your party.

300 dps - Both tanks are probably already dead. rip.

 

[iammeiam]

Which is why Yoshi-P's decisions are just dumb. I understand it from the point of view of not wanting players getting mad at others for not performing, but users are already being parsed whether they want it to or not because the content itself demands high numbers in limited time checks.

Imagine if ACT was detected by Square-Enix and your account banned if you use it or if somehow ACT or an equivalent parser never worked at all. You'd be in the dark and never able to figure out why you couldn't clear something.

People parse and are dicks about parses in content where it doesn't matter, though--I have seen people publicly call out others on content we're easily clearing just because their numbers sucked (not try to help, just insulting their DPS and telling them to get good) and I imagine it'd be much, much more prevelant if having the information wasn't technically a rule violation. The awkward compromise now means the information is out there and as long as you're not assaulting people with it it's not a big deal.

 

[PhillipCostigan]

an alternative for maximum dps healers such as myself:

200 dps - You might want to consider actually healing your party.

300 dps - Both tanks are probably already dead. rip.

or for Japanese healers:

200 dps - you can do better

300 dps - you can probably still do better

 

[Frumix]

Well the issue really not so much in that there needs to be a parser but in that there's a palpable discrepancy between game design and sort of advertisment (in general sense). You're offered to kill the dragon and save the country, you aren't offered to work on spreadsheets and theorycraft and learn piano. But then without any solid warning they demand solid competency of players. Now, I understand, top content that requires it isn't supposed to be for everyb--- wait, why?

I'm playing inFamous right now and it teaches you its moves in very smart ways. There's videos that show you how all these new moves you get work and challenges in main menu hint to how you can be more stylish or more effective without resorting to "Hey dumbass, try pushing the enemies with the wave attack, that will stun them and render them vulnerable to open fire!"

Like, this game just tells you "Well there's combos. Have fun." In a way it's one of multiple ways it subtly falls into trappings of catering to power gamers (because MMOs have to cater to power gamers you see) which feels a bit contradictory to the goals set by development, goals of... well, not casualizing, but making the game accessible.

an alternative for maximum dps healers such as myself:

200 dps - You might want to consider actually healing your party.

300 dps - Both tanks are probably already dead. rip.

Nah

 

[studyguy]

What? Why would I strangle my chocobo? D:

You will.

 

[Trojita]

Honestly, as far as a training hall goes, I want two things.

Multi-Target parse training. On my Dragoon I'm not so good as keeping my DPS on fights with a lot of targets, like Leviathan. I end up tripping up on my own feet, so to speak.

One my toes training. Not entirely certain what this would entail, but anything that helped me learn to more quickly adjust to the unexpected would be appreciated.

You need to keep Spineshatter and Dragonfire Dive on cooldown in order to shortened distance time. The mobs can be dpsed right near the head and tail, shouldn't cause much downtime at all.

 

[scy]

People parse and are dicks about parses in content where it doesn't matter, though.

Just because it doesn't matter doesn't really make it okay to basically be doing nothing, though. And often times, these people aren't low because it's just content that doesn't matter but because they don't know otherwise. Generally speaking, I won't even bring it up to a person without having something to say to help it. If I even remark on it in Mumble (because I'm a jerk, I guess), I'll be going through the ACT log to see exactly what they're doing to see if I can figure out advice. Or to see if they're just AFK / getting tired / why is it hour 17 of Shiva EX.

 

[Frumix]

Just because it doesn't matter doesn't really make it okay to basically be doing nothing, though. And often times, these people aren't low because it's just content that doesn't matter but because they don't know otherwise. Generally speaking, I won't even bring it up to a person without having something to say to help it. If I even remark on it in Mumble (because I'm a jerk, I guess), I'll be going through the ACT log to see exactly what they're doing to see if I can figure out advice. Or to see if they're just AFK / getting tired / why is it hour 17 of Shiva EX.

I WHMed in this one Titan EX in which the only person who ever did over 200 DPS was a passerby The Final Witness scholar with a parser. Boy did the butthurt ever flow.

 

[Isaccard]

Yoshida's design philosophy's just don't match the rest of the teams/battle designers

I bet he hasn't cleared T9 himself yet

 

[Wilsongt]

I've only been parsed once without specifically being asking and that was shortly after second coil was released. I parsed low because I was super nervous so my rotation wasn't optimal...

 

[Jayhawk]

My commendations in light farming groups are based on what my parse says and whether or not you're killing my plumes.

 

[docbon]

i need my dreadwyrm book stat

 

[iammeiam]

Just because it doesn't matter doesn't really make it okay to basically be doing nothing, though. And often times, these people aren't low because it's just content that doesn't matter but because they don't know otherwise. Generally speaking, I won't even bring it up to a person without having something to say to help it. If I even remark on it in Mumble (because I'm a jerk, I guess), I'll be going through the ACT log to see exactly what they're doing to see if I can figure out advice. Or to see if they're just AFK / getting tired / why is it hour 17 of Shiva EX.

There's a difference between trying to offer help or venting privately (or in Mumble, where jerks congregate to be elitist as I have long maintained) and busting out with "You're only doing 200 DPS, you need to step it up." in party chat. I tend to think advice is probably best offered in private, and there's nithing wrong with it, but the latter is just stupid particularly if DPS isn't causing massive issues because unless the person is actively choosing to be bad it's going to change nothing. Bonus points if the complainer isn't God's gift to DPS themselves.

 

[Wilsongt]

My commendations in light farming groups are based on what my parse says and whether or not you're killing my plumes.

RIP WHMs. There isn't a ruru HM that goes by that I don't eat a couple od wicked wheels.

 

[studyguy]

I commend based on whoever Goads me.

 

[Wilsongt]

I commend people who make me laugh. Suck it, serious folks.

 

[Trojita]

There's a difference between trying to offer help or venting privately (or in Mumble, where jerks congregate to be elitist as I have long maintained) and busting out with "You're only doing 200 DPS, you need to step it up." in party chat. I tend to think advice is probably best offered in private, and there's nithing wrong with it, but the latter is just stupid particularly if DPS isn't causing massive issues because unless the person is actively choosing to be bad it's going to change nothing. Bonus points if the complainer isn't God's gift to DPS themselves.

The latter person you are referencing is the 200 dps part? How is 200 dps in a group not going to cause massive problems?

 

[iammeiam]

The latter person you are referencing is the 200 dps part? How is 200 dps in a group not going to cause massive problems?

Most of this game is not that hard?

Outside of Final Coil, there's nothing in the game where the DPS checks are really a thing anymore. Look at the amount of content that can be four-manned currently; running with one massively underperforming DPS isn't really a deal breaker unless everyone is substantially underperforming.

Nothing wrong with contacting the guy privately and bringing it up, but announcing so-and-so is a bad to everyone and telling them to git gud and leaving it at that really doesn't add anything useful. They're not going to reverse engineer that into a rotation change mid-fight.

 

[RellyRell28]

Haven't played since November but getting the itch again to resub. After all the reason I built a pc was to play this at max settings. Playing catch up though is gonna keep me occupied when I do get back as I haven't played since the 2.4 patch came out.

 

[aceface]

The latter person you are referencing is the 200 dps part? How is 200 dps in a group not going to cause massive problems?

Because you're still easily clearing it? Like doing your ex roulette halfway asleep. As long as your breezing through it, who cares.

 

[Pai Pai Master]

Haven't played since November but getting the itch again to resub. After all the reason I built a pc was to play this at max settings. Playing catch up though is gonna keep me occupied when I do get back as I haven't played since the 2.4 patch came out.

I think you'll be fine, I hadn't played until 2.1 when I came back in November.

You should do it, especially with 2.5 comin' out.

Also if you see me suckin' it up, please rip me a new one. I can take constructive criticism lol

 

[irfaanator]

Most of this game is not that hard?

Outside of Final Coil, there's nothing in the game where the DPS checks are really a thing anymore. Look at the amount of content that can be four-manned currently; running with one massively underperforming DPS isn't really a deal breaker unless everyone is substantially underperforming.

Nothing wrong with contacting the guy privately and bringing it up, but announcing so-and-so is a bad to everyone and telling them to git gud and leaving it at that really doesn't add anything useful. They're not going to reverse engineer that into a rotation change mid-fight.

yea the game might not be hard for people doing coil, but there are instances where it does matter. people would wipe on demon wall due to dps and even the atomos fight in original ct due to dps. You can also say the same for df/pf groups that end up wiping to the enrage in certain primal extreme fights.

 

[Jayhawk]

There are still groups that wipe to sisters phase in Garuda HM because everybody else is doing 200 DPS.

 

[RellyRell28]

I think you'll be fine, I hadn't played until 2.1 when I came back in November.

You should do it, especially with 2.5 comin' out.

Yeah I'll come back and join you guys on here. I was here before but the fall rush of games plus my sub ending in November lead me to take a break. I do gotta learn to balance my games. I'm more than likely kicked out of the FC I was in as they kick people out who was inactive for sometime so I'll just seek another FC on Diabolos.

 

[iammeiam]

yea the game might not be hard for people doing coil, but there are instances where it does matter. people would wipe on demon wall due to dps and even the atomos fight in original ct due to dps. You can also say the same for df/pf groups that end up wiping to the enrage in certain primal extreme fights.

To clarify: I was specifically responding to how one person doing 200 DPS is not an issue for the group as a whole. Assuming most of the rest of the group is somewhere in the neighborhood of performing OK, you can easily carry one guy at 200 DPS fairly effortlessly because nothing right now outside of FCoB demands anything approaching group-wide competence. Yelling at 200 DPS guy accomplishes nothing unless you're adding context.

 

[scy]

My commendations in light farming groups are based on what my parse says and whether or not you're killing my plumes.

Yup. I just commended whichever DPS is clearly going all-in.

To clarify: I was specifically responding to how one person doing 200 DPS is not an issue for the group as a whole. Assuming most of the rest of the group is somewhere in the neighborhood of performing OK, you can easily carry one guy at 200 DPS fairly effortlessly because nothing right now outside of FCoB demands anything approaching group-wide competence. Yelling at 200 DPS guy accomplishes nothing unless you're adding context.

Yeah, I remember the context of this so I'll say that I agree. It didn't really matter and the only reason I even noticed at the time was more trying to figure out the why of it.

That said, I think some of this whole "it doesn't matter!" doesn't help with more and more people getting access to content where it does actually matter. A lot of people have gotten T9 clears recently that COULD potentially put together a new group for Final Coil but not sure how many of them are able to do the content. Though this is a completely different issue entirely and not really related to what's going on right now.

 

[irfaanator]

To clarify: I was specifically responding to how one person doing 200 DPS is not an issue for the group as a whole. Assuming most of the rest of the group is somewhere in the neighborhood of performing OK, you can easily carry one guy at 200 DPS fairly effortlessly because nothing right now outside of FCoB demands anything approaching group-wide competence. Yelling at 200 DPS guy accomplishes nothing unless you're adding context.

yes, yelling at the guy isn't gonna change anything, I agree. The issue I always have with low dps is what happens to people that end up in groups where the majority of players are the 200 dps people. Echo may help, but there is only so much echo can do. The game does need a way for people to evaluate themselves to other people playing their class and understand how to improve. Also details such as server updates every 3 seconds or positionals/auto attacks need to be clarified to the players as well so they know, but this is something that SE needs to address, and who knows if it will ever happen

 

[Vamphuntr]

Do you eventually get to fight the empire in the story? By that I mean the funny looking characters in armor.

Last time I saw one was when the sailor moon reject like lady killed the lettuce people and kidnapped our half dressed leader. I've been doing fetch quests for the people in the snowy area forever without hope of finding the legendary ship in the next 20 following fetch quests.

I'm enjoying the game but dear God the story pacing is so poor.

 

[irfaanator]

Do you eventually get to fight the empire in the story? By that I mean the funny looking characters in armor.

Last time I saw one was when the sailor moon reject like lady killed the lettuce people and kidnapped our half dressed leader. I've been doing fetch quests for the people in the snowy area forever without hope of finding the legendary ship in the next 20 following fetch quests.

I'm enjoying the game but dear God the story pacing is so poor.

yes at the end. three trials open up where you fight them.

 

[Pai Pai Master]

lol the lettuce people. I love that.

and yeah, any time something urgent happens, expect to spend an hour or two on lame fetch quests before you see it resolved. :\

the main story is pretty good but padded out hardcore.

 

[Valor]

I am completely unsurprised to learn you're not on the superior 100 posts per page train.

Are you hitting on me? ;3

Really though, it's just I wanted a DPS mini-game in Gold Saucer.

I should have also added I would have wanted something like that in Gold Saucer as well. Super disappointment incoming.

 

[Wilsongt]

lol the lettuce people. I love that.

and yeah, any time something urgent happens, expect to spend an hour or two on lame fetch quests before you see it resolved. :

the main story is pretty good but padded out hardcore.

NOTHING can be as bad as the Titan quest line. That one was absolute shit. "oh no! titan is being summoned! Here, go appease the pimplafell and go see all of these other unimportant people first."

at least garuda's part had a point.

 

[scy]

Cheese though.

 

[Isaccard]

There's a difference between trying to offer help or venting privately (or in Mumble, where jerks congregate to be elitist as I have long maintained) and busting out with "You're only doing 200 DPS, you need to step it up." in party chat. I tend to think advice is probably best offered in private, and there's nithing wrong with it, but the latter is just stupid particularly if DPS isn't causing massive issues because unless the person is actively choosing to be bad it's going to change nothing. Bonus points if the complainer isn't God's gift to DPS themselves.

This post right here man. Yes.

Alot of this ties back into my previous post about some people just expecting too much from the general population of players.

As for mumble, idk what happend there, but people will critisize random pugs in FC chat too

 

[Frumix]

200 okay but what about 170? With 110 weapon and echo? When is it okay to start yelling at people?

Twintania used to be this kinda "Introduction to Raiding: Git Gud you Noobs" before Second Coil but by now people can more or less get carried through her and not realize what is going on then they hit T8 or T9 and... yeah.
And if you don't start caring about this stuff long before you set foot in Final Coil, you'll probably be ill prepared for what happens in there.
I mean, people still fail to pass Ramuh DPS check. That's not even close to Final Coil difficulty.

 

[irfaanator]

This post right here man. Yes.

Alot of this ties back into my previous post about some people just expecting too much from the general population of players.

As for mumble, idk what happend there

when you gotta play with the general population, you shouldnt be expecting disappointment

 

[Wilsongt]

200 okay but what about 170? With 110 weapon and echo? When is it okay to start yelling at people?

Instead of yelling why not be helpful and offer advice? If there's one things this game doesn't need more if is critical dicks who would rather insult and bail from an instance instead of offering constructive criticism.

 

[scy]

I feel like the yelling is more a generic catch-all term rather than literally yelling at them. Basically, how bad does the DPS get to be before it's okay to find it a problem.

It's also worth noting that I think some people don't get how little you have to do at i110 (with or without echo) to do 200 or below DPS. Like, spamming just Blizzard on BLM with no other input will be >300. Just hitting the flank Monk combo will be >300.

 

[Frumix]

Instead of yelling why not be helpful and offer advice? If there's one things this game doesn't need more if is critical dicks who would rather insult and bail from an instance instead of offering constructive criticism.

Well my attitude is normally "I'll probably never meet these players again so I'll just stick around silently until we have enough of this". But others may not be so patient. And really, what can you do in this situation. We're likely talking about DF/PF groups here right? What can you do, when in the middle of a complex fight you discover people just don't press buttons?

 

[Trojita]

NOTHING can be as bad as the Titan quest line. That one was absolute shit. "oh no! titan is being summoned! Here, go appease the pimplafell and go see all of these other unimportant people first."

at least garuda's part had a point.

You mean the Tidus Quest Line.

 

[Vamphuntr]

yes at the end. three trials open up where you fight them.

Nice. A trial so we'll be fighting with a party!

lol the lettuce people. I love that.

and yeah, any time something urgent happens, expect to spend an hour or two on lame fetch quests before you see it resolved. :\

the main story is pretty good but padded out hardcore.

The story was starting to get good and then your like okay we can't go save them we have to get to garuda first but here comes the boring quests to find the airship.

NOTHING can be as bad as the Titan quest line. That one was absolute shit. "oh no! titan is being summoned! Here, go appease the pimplafell and go see all of these other unimportant people first."

at least garuda's part had a point.

Oh yes it was so bad.

 

[Isaccard]

Instead of yelling why not be helpful and offer advice? If there's one things this game doesn't need more if is critical dicks who would rather insult and bail from an instance instead of offering constructive criticism.

Problem is, the person who would feel inclined to yell can't help but appear to be condescending with their advice, and that's if the person in question is even open to accepting any.

 

[Gamer @ Heart]

Is there a rough formula for estimating how much higher a persons dps will increase just equating for that main attack value bump? Like the 2 points from 110 to 115 or 125 to 130?

Like 1 point of attack is eqaul to rough 10 intelligence/strength/etc (which if the rotation is optimal) is around 20 dps per second. Something like that?