This would only be acceptable if the rewards were far far better. People treat dungeons like a chore for tomes because that is literally what they are. You add any challenge to them as is and people will just abandon until they get the easiest dungeon - see Pharos situation pre nerfs.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Final Fantasy XIV |OT6| Casino Royale
- Thread starter tiggerkiddo
- Start date
- Status
People keep saying hey dislike crafting mat drops yet no one is asking Yoshida to fix that shit during live letters instead asking the dumb shit questions over and over
i think he did acknowledge it at one point or another and said he'd look into and nothing's come of it obviously; I don't understand why it's still a thing especially when you can get these same items from GC vendors
i think he did acknowledge it at one point or another and said he'd look into and nothing's come of it obviously; I don't understand why it's still a thing especially when you can get these same items from GC vendors
To be clear, crafting mat drops are fine, "When they're worth something." Since these are older mats that can be purchased elsewhere, their value is never going to be terribly high.
No, it's not fine; crafting garbage should not be my reward for banging my head against Kraken with a healer who didint DPS and auto attack only DPS.
Crafting doesn't belong in dungeons period. They found a perfect solution in coil one where you get your gold mine materials and gear. Why is this not the same with the dungeons if we have to have crafting mats?
Their value isn't high exactly because they are dungeon drops. If you removed them prices would shoot up high. Hell that happens just if you remove them from EXDR dungeons. See the price of 2star mats go up after dungeons moved to 3star (which have all dropped a decent amount)
Unless you are actively farming fates or the like, gc seals come so slow. And no one is crazy enough to waste ixali marks on these items.
Is a crappy i90 item really that much better? Even if you gearing alts there are so many better methods.
That i90 item can be traded in for Seals, and it adds up pretty quickly if you're doing dungeons on a regular basis.
And yes, the value of those mats would shoot up some if they stopped dropping in dungeons, but only so much, and only for certain materials. Some of the materials that drop were never worth very much.
Edit: Math, yay!
So most dungeons have three bosses, that drop two items each. Ilvl90 armor is worth roughly 1000 Seals each. (Over actually, but I forget the exact number.) That means that 6000 Seals would be awarded out per dungeun. Assuming that over time it roughly evens out to about the same number of seals per person, that's 1500 Seals per person per run. Assuming you're running only five days per week to cap Poetics, that comes out to 7500 Seals per week.
It'll probably be closer to 10K Seals per week in 2.5, given that these are ilvl100 items. So this isn't a bad rate to accumulate Seals at all.
Popotoes and Star Anises for everyone!
Worthless garbage. However, it looks like the new dungeons will at least have glamor gear.
Ok so you trade in those armor for seals and get what? Crafting mats at a worse seal/gil ratio than just getting the drop straight up? 5 ventures when you could use hunting marks for way better return?
All the worthwhile materials would shoot up. It's like 9k seals per 1 3star item, right? That's almost 9 i90 armor turn ins. For a single item.
All the worthwhile materials would shoot up. It's like 9k seals per 1 3star item, right? That's almost 9 i90 armor turn ins. For a single item.
Pyros_Eien
Member
They're nice if you can desynth them at least. Can get rose gold ingots from the jewelry, vanya or dark iron ingots(or hard hippo leather lol) from the armor. Beats popotos.
The crafting stuff should just be a bonus, dungeons should give armor.
In general, dungeons should keep up in ilvl instead of being behind. I think their logic is that your progression is supposed to be dungeons > raids but I think it'd be nice if dungeons were just a parallel progression path instead, at least in relation to the 24man welfare raid stuff. Raids would still drop higher ilvl, but only slightly, a bit like how 24man raids drop higher stuff. So for example when they added ST at i100, dungeons at that point should have been i90(which was myth gear level). Then coil is added, dungeons are bumped to i100, similar to ST. Then WoD added, dungeons bumped to 110 and WoD is 120.
I think they might rethink of that once they get the itemsync right.
And expert should definitely be more than 2dungeons. With that format I think having dungeons be the last 2 tiers would be fine. If for 2.5 you had 3 i110dungeons and 3 i100dungeons, they'd be very relevant for gearing alts or for new players to jump right in raiding. Instead we're getting 3 i100dungeons only, which means it'll be boring and the gear is barely relevant anymore.
Having dungeons be treated as a chore by the player base seems like a waste in resources they spend on creating these dungeons. I don't know if there is a simple solution to remove this stigma without alterations to the tome system.
Pyros' suggestion is one way I could see it working. They'd have to basically revamp how their gear progression currently works. Maybe in expansion?
Hard/Easy modes like Coil will have in the expansion could be a nice way to make them relevant too. Have the hard modes give entry level raid gear, and be you know, actually hard. I think they've said before that they are against the idea of challenging 4man content though?
irfaanator
Banned
maybe the next set with the new gear will work, but then they gotta figure out a good way of obtaining old crafting mats without it costing so much.
For each new dungeon, there should be dungeon gear sets. No exceptions. Ilvl should be 5 behind the equipment you buy with tomes. For example, this last set should have been ilvl 105 to help fill gaps between either your raid gear or your tome gear. Plus, throw in crafting items.
Pyros_Eien
Member
I think wow did that recently, or well not so recently since it was during kung fu panda expansion, with challenge dungeons or whatever? I think there's like a time limit and the dungeons are hard or whatever I'm not 100% sure since I don't follow wow too much anymore, but point is, I feel that's definitely something interesting, making 4man challenging (optional) content. A bit like savage coil, though more in line with normal coil in terms of difficulty.
At the same time you fragment your population in those various activities and stuff which makes it less and less valuable to keep updating everything to please smaller numbers of people, so I can kinda see why most devs don't bother with those type of things.
Anyway it's one of the many things to look forward for the expansion, what they're doing with dungeons, gear acquisition, non raid stuff basically. Hope they start talking about it more in details soonish.
Yeah I can't wait until they start going into the details of gameplay changes rather than just the PR-compatible stuff.
...hopefully we don't have to wait till the day before launch to get them.
The most honest dude at SE: http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/2sz17d/yoshida_sends_a_fuck_you_to_you_pleasant_folks_on/
irfaanator
Banned
my new go to picture for anything
tiggerkiddo
Member
Because obviously Japanese players are saints descended from heaven!
Hey, whatever gets the dumbasses over there to fix problems. Top reddit post in there nailed it. People have been complaining about trade canceling teleport for awhile now, wouldn't be surprised if they sneak that fix into 2.5 now that it got used on yoshida directly.
Good on Yoshi. Middle fingers for all those asshats.
At this rate I'll never be good enough for Drama... Teach me, Ken-senpai.
I was going to add this exact sentence into my post, but I figured it was already long and boring enough without going into detail, especially since I don't have any decent solutions to the problem.
The way I look at it, from a design perspective, is that you need to incentive people to run content. Tomes are a good incentive - people run dungeons now even though they're a slog. However, that doesn't make it any more or less enjoyable for players.
Maybe the answer is actually to shorten dungeons, rather than lengthen them. If you shorten the dungeons that you head into, people will be spending less time in them, which would feel like less of a grind. Trash is gonna be trash, but with less pulls you can design more interesting pulls almost like ST has (except ST's pulls are stupid because 24 people) or more akin to Trash pulls from T10/T11. Nothing difficult, mind you, but something to spice up the situation.
Putting in a new set of gear drops in every single patch is a crazy misuse of resources, in my opinion. Designing throwaway gear is almost as disappointing as the fact that we haven't seen a set of dungeon gear since 2.3. Odds are the gear set dropping tomorrow are gonna be trash like i100 or something totally pointless and fully for glamour purposes.
Like I started this post about nothing with, there is no easy fix to dungeons because it's hard to pin down what dungeons should even be used for in the endgame aside from getting an obligatory amount of tomes every week to buy gear that actually matters. The only way to make them relevant, I think, is to basically get rid of tome gear and turn them into drops from the dungeons instead. I can imagine how well that idea would go over, though.
If Galen can solo all 3 of the new dungeons then Drama-senpai will notice him.
Oh man, speaking of derailing
The only thing that I could do to make her notice me is maybe if I was like Cheshire Kat rich. Even then, it's iffy.
Ehhhh...
I think it might be a good idea to adjust rewards, incentives, and difficulties in endgame dungeons for Heavensward, but I don't think they can make end game dungeons ever truly difficult.
But again, they can probably tick the difficulty up slightly. Also, more Metal Gear Solid instances pls.
I think it might be a good idea to adjust rewards, incentives, and difficulties in endgame dungeons for Heavensward, but I don't think they can make end game dungeons ever truly difficult.
But again, they can probably tick the difficulty up slightly. Also, more Metal Gear Solid instances pls.
lazybones18
Banned
Need something cleared up regarding Ramuh Ex? Since I'm a DPS, what's the point of getting one of the remaining orbs?
Altered Juice
Member
i would have extended the maintenance for that server
LOL HOLY SHIT i didn't even see that!
It's better for newer players going through the story line, multiple times I've come across players in AF and pink gear in Expert Roulette dungeons. That, and vanity. I still have yet to finish 2.3 dungeon gear, and that's all it is for me really, vanity.
I mean, are you okay with your reward being a piece of animal skin or cooking formula x and the end of a dungeon? What if this is what you got at the end of coil/raids?
Orbs increase Ramuh's damage (or just Thunderstorm, I'm not sure), so the least orbs up, the less outgoing dmg to your group. Also if you get tethered one of the two players need to pick up orbs to remove the tether.
Based on? That's not how it worked last time.
Dungeons need, like, difficulty sliders or something to add variety. Have it start at faceroll and let you scale it up to moderately challenging. Scale tome rewards, too. And by 'challening' I don't mean 'give the trash a crapload of HP' because boring.
Also, 3/5 people Mandervilling at the WoD unlock spot are bards. WoD drops better be good.
Also if anyone's going to be on when the patch goes live, first wave WoD let's go. It won't be the flashy FULL GAF adventure that will probably happen tomorrow night, but we will ideally be able to cash in our Jayhawk weapon preorders first.
Edit: also can confirm that healer DPS leads to tank death. Holy is worth it.
Also, 3/5 people Mandervilling at the WoD unlock spot are bards. WoD drops better be good.
Also if anyone's going to be on when the patch goes live, first wave WoD let's go. It won't be the flashy FULL GAF adventure that will probably happen tomorrow night, but we will ideally be able to cash in our Jayhawk weapon preorders first.
Edit: also can confirm that healer DPS leads to tank death. Holy is worth it.
lazybones18
Banned
ok, that makes much more sense
When I first hit 50 back in 2.0, and I mainly had to rely on dungeon drops for gearing up. That was one of the most enjoyable periods of the game for me.
AK and WP were both pretty difficult dungeons with fresh 50 gear, and I was mostly spending Philosophy on accessories, so each armor drop felt like a huge deal, and a decent accomplishment in its own right.
It was fairly clear that players weren't going to get that experience outside of raids anymore, once 2.1 hit, and none of the four man's had higher Ilvl armor.
Again, this isn't a huge issue, but hopefully they tweak things somewhat in Heavensward. It'd be nice if the drops were at least nominally relevant outside of Vanity gear.
AK and WP were both pretty difficult dungeons with fresh 50 gear, and I was mostly spending Philosophy on accessories, so each armor drop felt like a huge deal, and a decent accomplishment in its own right.
It was fairly clear that players weren't going to get that experience outside of raids anymore, once 2.1 hit, and none of the four man's had higher Ilvl armor.
Again, this isn't a huge issue, but hopefully they tweak things somewhat in Heavensward. It'd be nice if the drops were at least nominally relevant outside of Vanity gear.
If you beat T13, she also might notice you.
Mostly speculation on my part. They might release them a few minutes before stream, but they definitely won't release them hours earlier.
That, and I seem to recall them taking their sweet time during previous patches.
Pyros_Eien
Member
Eh, I don't think it was particularily well done. Objectively, WP was maybe where it was supposed to be and AK was too hard. Mostly the issue was the lack of options. WP was garbage in terms of drops other than relic stuff to save you money but was fairly easy right away as a fresh 50, while AK was the only thing worth running but was relatively hard in comparison, and also took a fair amount of time to run(which led to all the speed run tricks, sacing pulls and all that stuff until they reworked the entire thing and nerfed it down to WP difficulty).
I guess here the issue is, there only was 2 dungeons in 2.0, which wasn't good design. They probably should have like cut AV from the normal rotation and added that as a 50 dungeon. Hopefully for Heavensward, they have a better selection of dungeons. I'm thinking, 3 leveling dungeons(every 3levels), then at 60, 3new dungeons and the 3 HM version of the leveling dungeons, split into 2 groups. But we'll see maybe they'll go with just 3, which will be pretty boring but kinda on par.
AK was nice though cause as you said, it dropped relevant gear. Many people started doing Coil before they had full Darklight(for obvious reasons) and the i60 stuff from AK was actually adequate(unless you cared about your looks, god were those sets ugly), for the most part. But for a farming dungeon and entry level, it was probably too long to clear and too hard for a lot of people to clear(dat wall).
Difficulty sliders, somehow, would be good. Problem is balancing them properly is still a lot more work. You can't just turn everything up 30% and expect it'll be balanced, some stuff will still be easy and some will be way too hard.
Unknown Soldier
Member
I'm honestly a bit disappointed, a player found a way to kill Lord British when he appeared in an game event during the Ultima Online beta.
irfaanator
Banned
the only thing that the tonberry ppl left out was saying gaf'd in shout chat
Unknown Soldier
Member
Well that's easy, have you considered replying to tell from a nice man who told you that existence is reasonable and you can make things better?
My reward are the tomes for completing the dungeon, so yeah, whatever is in the chest is a secondary. The coil comparison fails for that reason, I am there for what's in the chest, not some other reward.
I guess it depends on what you mean by difficulty, but there is plenty of ways to make 4man content challenging. You don't need tank swaps and two healers to make difficult boss mechanics. Making it so new 4man content isn't instantly irrelevant could also help.
- Status