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Frumix · Jan 21, 2015

Anyway. Since I habitually play with the Japanese voiceover, I couldn't help but notice what could lightly be called discrepancy between the original dialogue and the translation.

Apparently bosses in WP Hard are called after made-up adjectives in Carroll's Jabberwocky which isn't the case in the original. But whatever, this isn't so big right?

Let's compare further.
From the quest The Rising Chorus:

#66 Minfilia Let us keep this matter to ourselves. I do not wish to burden our friends needlessly.
#67 Midgardsormr Art thou a pawn, or master of thy fate?
#68 Midgardsormr What hast thou wrought by thine own hands, mortal?
#69 Minfilia Would that we could discern the nature of the covenant between Hydaelyn and Midgardsormr...

#66 Minfilia この件は、わたしの胸に留めておきます。 みんなを不安にさせては、いけないもの。
I will keep this matter to myself. We should avoid causing others unease.
#67 Midgardsormr 不安に思うことはない。 我が楔は、光の加護を封じただけ汝の身体を蝕みはせぬ。 汝の力そのものは、変わらずその身に宿っている。
Though there's no reason for that. My fang has merely removed the protection of Light. No harm came to your body. You own power is still well within you.
#68 Midgardsormr ひとりのヒトとして、いかなる道を切り開くか。 傍らで見物させてもらおう。
Will you carve your own path as a mere human? I'll keep watch over you.
#69 Minfilia 幻龍とハイデリンどんな関係があるのかしら。 想像は尽きないわね。
It's hard to imagine what kind of connection there is between Midgardsormr and Hydaelyn.

This is basically entirely different thing!

The entire Keeper of the Lake cutscene is just mangled beyond belief.
It definitely uses less lelmemes, is much less confusing and

portrays Midgardsormr as a much less malevolent being.
Midgardsormr is watching over you so that you don't go against his wishes and also to test you and warns you of a trial ahead, not because some ancient magic binds his avatar to you.

English dialogue is just... largely madeup.
I'll continue my research and try to compare the scripts.
There's localization and then there's just pulling this shit.
People who say "Oh, the localization is well, it works within the context" simply are unaware of what the context even was before Koji came here.

VanillaCakeIsBurning · Jan 21, 2015

studyguy said:
With a high enough ilvl, dead DPS and a single healer left standing.
Anything is possible my friend. This is DF, cast reason aside.

You're right. I just need to kick reason to the curb and do the impossible.

Shahed said:
PLD or WAR? What iLevel is your Gear on the left side? Either way Titan Ex can be solo tanked relatively easy enough, but tank swapping works until then. Are you taking the hits or mitigating the damage with inner beast or other cooldowns?

Yeah i tried that and it worked. It was at the FFXIV homepage where it failed to recognise it

ilvl 74. I almost have 6K HP. The other Paladin had around 8K. I always use my defensive cooldowns when tanking. Usually start with the weaker ones then the stronger stuff like Sentinel when I start taking a lot of damage. I save Hallowed Ground for when I have almost 0 HP and am about to die from something. I'm going to put Titan EX on the backburner for now. I need to get my ilvl to 80 so I can proceed with the story quests.

EDIT: Can I do these Bahamut Coils for gear? Are they easier than Titan EX?

Shahed · Jan 21, 2015

VanillaCakeIsBurning said:
You're right. I just need to kick reason to the curb and do the impossible.

ilvl 74. I almost have 6K HP. The other Paladin had around 8K. I always use my defensive cooldowns when tanking. Usually start with the weaker ones then the stronger stuff like Sentinel when I start taking a lot of damage. I save Hallowed Ground for when I have almost 0 HP and am about to die from something. I'm going to put Titan EX on the backburner for now. I need to get my ilvl to 80 so I can proceed with the story quests.

EDIT: Can I do these Bahamut Coils for gear? Are they easier than Titan EX?

Yeah you can, but the quickest way would be to get your Soldiery and Poetic Gear. 1st Coil is i90 which will be obsolete very quickly.

You should have a Guildhest and Low level Roulette. How much Soldiery and Poetic do they offer? Work on doing any post game dungeons you haven't done to eventually unlock High and Extreme Roulette. While doing this you can just straight buy i100 and i120 gear with your Tomes of Soldiery (uncapped) and Poetic (450 a week). Then go clear Crystal Tower if you haven't (if you've unlocked it already but not completed, you might be easily carried by higher level players right now) and then Syrcus Tower to get loads of i100 gear and then it's easy as you like.

Just do a bit of research to see what are good option to spend your Poetic on. As a Tank Body and Leg are safe bets

Unknown Soldier · Jan 21, 2015

ZangBa said:
You guys weren't kidding when you said Gladiator/Paladin was boring because I'm level 29 now and I've only had to use 2 skills outside of dungeons where I used like 4. Also, none of the DPS ever attack the target I mark :<.

I hope you learn a valuable lesson now about never wasting your time marking things. Just spam Flash until you have no MP and then Riot Blade to get some MP back so you can Flash more. You can pretty much do this until 50 on trash pulls and nothing interesting will happen, the leveling dungeons aren't exactly hard outside of Aurum Vale.

BadRNG · Jan 21, 2015

Are you sure you are matching up the right lines? For example the 67 line you got there, the English one is what he says to you back at the Rising Stones, the JPN line is something he actually says in English as well but after the KoL fight. If it is the right lines, it seems like they may have switched around parts but same idea was gotten across.

I didn't get any sense of malevolence from his English dialogue either, if anything it seems very clear to me they are setting him up for being an unlikely ally as the whole Ishgard/Dravanian conflict is not what it appears to be.

Wilsongt · Jan 21, 2015

Frumix said:
Anyway. Since I habitually play with the Japanese voiceover, I couldn't help but notice what could lightly be called discrepancy between the original dialogue and the translation.

Apparently bosses in WP Hard are called after made-up adjectives in Carroll's Jabberwocky which isn't the case in the original. But whatever, this isn't so big right?

Let's compare further.
From the quest The Rising Chorus:

This is basically entirely different thing!

The entire Keeper of the Lake cutscene is just mangled beyond belief.
It definitely uses less lelmemes, is much less confusing and portrays Midgardsormr as a much less malevolent being.
Midgardsormr is watching over you so that you don't go against his wishes and also to test you and warns you of a trial ahead, not because some ancient magic binds his avatar to you.
English dialogue is just... largely madeup.
I'll continue my research and try to compare the scripts.
There's localization and then there's just pulling this shit.
People who say "Oh, the localization is well, it works within the context" simply are unaware of what the context even was before Koji came here.

I don't see the problem. Everything in the Japanese dialogue is stated in English as well. Almost in the same way. This seems like needless nitpicking more than a radical change in meaning.

Black-Wind · Jan 21, 2015

So ...

Does the Mounts and Pets count as gear-pre-week lock outs for WoD?

Can I get a chest armor and come back to run it for the minion the same week of what?

studyguy · Jan 21, 2015

Black-Wind said:
So ...

Does the Mounts and Pets count as gear-pre-week lock outs for WoD?

Can I get a chest armor and come back to run it for the minion the same week of what?

Minion never counts iirc.
The luck required to get it is punishment enough.

Frumix · Jan 21, 2015

Wilsongt said:
I don't see the problem. Everything in the Japanese dialogue is stated in English as well. Almost in the same way. This seems like needless nitpicking more than a radical change in meaning.

The focus is different. The reason Midgardsormr wants the character to struggle on his own isn't some philosophical challenge of legitimacy of being bossed around by Minfilia, but whether they can find the power in themselves to stand against the dragon kin, and all of this, strangely, to the consent, and even will of Hydaelyn! Which isn't clear from the English narrative at all. I shall not even talk how readjusted for line count and obviously not tested out, the dialogue doesn't even match up with the cutscene flow very well.
This theory that the player character is actually tempered by Hydaelyn and she's not at all benevolent to all of her children doesn't need anymore fuel anyway.

Jayhawk · Jan 22, 2015

I see Frumix doesn't know what a spoiler tag is.

Frumix · Jan 22, 2015

Jayhawk said:
I see Frumix doesn't know what a spoiler tag is.

Day two! I admit nothing!

Imagine Wagons · Jan 22, 2015

studyguy said:
Man that dude made a yo momma joke at my FC mate and refused to roll on the item that dropped before he left the instance. Dude is childish and nothing but.

I found this on Reddit a while back: http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/2rfcfb/a_moment_of_your_time_please_about_someone_i_feel/. The post text got deleted but the comments are still there and he replies to some of them. From what I remember the guy had a pretty rough life and used this game to get through it. Not that I'm condoning what he does. You can have a good time in this game and still not be a dick.

VanillaCakeIsBurning · Jan 22, 2015

Shahed said:
Yeah you can, but the quickest way would be to get your Soldiery and Poetic Gear. 1st Coil is i90 which will be obsolete very quickly.

You should have a Guildhest and Low level Roulette. How much Soldiery and Poetic do they offer? Work on doing any post game dungeons you haven't done to eventually unlock High and Extreme Roulette. While doing this you can just straight buy i100 and i120 gear with your Tomes of Soldiery (uncapped) and Poetic (450 a week). Then go clear Crystal Tower if you haven't (if you've unlocked it already but not completed, you might be easily carried by higher level players right now) and then Syrcus Tower to get loads of i100 gear and then it's easy as you like.

Just do a bit of research to see what are good option to spend your Poetic on. As a Tank Body and Leg are safe bets

I've been slowly building up on Soldiery actually. Then the new tier of stuff came out so I'm working on replacing the lowest ilvl gear before I work on the higher stuff. Right now I'm about to replace my lvl 50 helm with a ilvl 100 one so we'll see if that gets me to 80. I just did a Sycrus Tower run today actually and got Phlegethon's armor which is the same ilvl as the Soldiery armor I already had unfortunately. So it looks like getting Soldiery stuff is my best bet for now.

EDIT: It looks like Sycrus Tower and Labrynth gives 100 Soldiery every time so I guess I'll do that. Getting the ilvl 100 helm brought me to 78 so I just need one more piece to break 80.

BadRNG · Jan 22, 2015

Frumix said:
The focus is different. The reason Midgardsormr wants the character to struggle on his own isn't some philosophical challenge of legitimacy of being bossed around by Minfilia, but whether they can find the power in themselves to stand against the dragon kin, and all of this, strangely, to the consent, and even will of Hydaelyn! Which isn't clear from the English narrative at all. I shall not even talk how readjusted for line count and obviously not tested out, the dialogue doesn't even match up with the cutscene flow very well.
This theory that the player character is actually tempered by Hydaelyn and she's not at all benevolent to all of her children doesn't need anymore fuel anyway.

Doesn't that really depend on how you want to translate the ひとりのヒトとしてline? You interpret it as a challenge of humanity (or a "mere human") to stand against the dragons, but that is not the only way to do so. The English line implies struggling alone as an individual rather than Mid talking down to you, which is a perfectly acceptable way to interpret it too. Nothing in the lines you posted, in Japanese or English, imply what Midgardormr is doing is Hydaelyn's will either, that is just as "made up" as the official translation.

In translation intent is everything, you don't do 1:1 translations, the goal is to express the underlying idea of the text. I don't always like the flavor text they throw in there for that medieval feel, but Koji has access to the actual writers, don't you think they know better about the intent of the story? Or do you not think he consults the writers at all and just pulls it out his ass?

Frumix · Jan 22, 2015

BadRNG said:
Doesn't that really depend on how you want to translate the ひとりのヒトとしてline? You interpret it as a challenge of humanity (or a "mere human") to stand against the dragons, but that is not the only way to do so. The English line implies struggling alone as an individual rather than Mid talking down to you, which is a perfectly acceptable way to interpret it too. Nothing in the lines you posted, in Japanese or English, imply what Midgardormr is doing is Hydaelyn's will either, that is just as "made up" as the official translation.

In translation intent is everything, you don't do 1:1 translations, the goal is to express the underlying idea of the text. I don't always like the flavor text they throw in there for that medieval feel, but Koji has access to the actual writers, don't you think they know better about the intent of the story? Or do you not think he consults the writers at all and just pulls it out his ass?

The idea that Midgardsormr agrees to Hydaelyn's wish comes from Keeper of the Lake cutscene. I have not transcribed it fully, but:

[PC shakes head in disagreement]
Seven children did I sire. One now singeth of retribution.
I rise to join in the chorus..
Thou art powerless to silence us, mortal. Yet thou shalt not live to labor in vain. Thy reprieve is at an end.
[Light proects PC from Midgardsormr's influence]
Hmph. Trickery is they shield. This frail, ignoble creature is not gifted, but chosen...
Hearken to me, Hydaelyn! I remember... and I consent.
[The light vanishes]
Fear not, mortal... I shall not harm thee...
[The claw pierces the PC and dispels the protection of Light]
Heh heh heh. Mayhap thou thinkest me an oathbreaker?
Thou art mistaken. If thou comest to harm, it shall be by another's hand, not mine.
I did but strip thee of thy mistress's feeble blessing.
Thou didst profit much by Her grace, but no more.

Versus

[PC shakes head in disagreement]
進軍を止めろと講うか。 超える力を宿せど、所詮はヒトよ。 それは、叶わぬ願いでろう。
我は、先の咆哮に応え、微睡から目覚めたに過ぎぬ。 咆哮を上げたるは我にあらず、我が七の子のいずれかよ。
イシュガルドの民は、己が罪を悔い改めぬというのに、何故、我が子とその[missing]
[Light proects PC from Midgardsormr's influence]
その光・・・光の加護か！ハイデリンめ、超える力を持つ者に さらなる力をあたえようとは。
まさか、特異の者なのか？星よ・・・この者に力を貸せと、我に願うのか！
[The light vanishes]
よかろう。ならば、このミドガルズオルムが、汝を試そうではないか！
[The claw pierces the PC and dispels the protection of Light]
汝を貫いたのは「竜の爪」。我が力によりて、ハイデリンのあたう、光の加護を封じる楔。
もっとも、星の光は陰りを見せておった。我が爪なくとも、いずれ消え失せていたやもしれぬがな。
我は、かつてハイデリンと契りの交わした。　故に、その加護を受けてる汝を、くびり殺すのは控えよう。
だが、汝はヒト。イシュガルドの民のように、愚かな罪を犯すやもしれぬ。我が汝を見限れば、拾った命はないと思え

Perhaps the general idea of the scene remains similar, but the sheer amount of details and focus switching changed the impression drastically.
The lines bolded confused me the most. The line italicized is the one the change of which I just completely don't comprehend.
And please, do not lecture me on translation, as I happen to be educated on the matter.
Not doing 1:1 translation doesn't suddenly mean anything goes.
And we do not know how Square Enix truly works, all I see is that one text doesn't fit another.
Why can't I somehow question that?

Here's some impression from OF people have gotten from Middy's dialogue:

given his lines and the fact that people are already calling him and the dragons "anonymous," I'd say he's just an enormous (literally) troll.

He sits on your shoulder whenever he feels like it, doesn't take orders and doesn't want you to take orders.

yeah that method of storytelling really annoys me. Big mysterious powerful thing does some magical mumbo jumbo to you that screws with you and doesn't explain why.

When in reality

He doesn't make any Internet references, doesn't care if you take orders from somebody and even explains why he does what he does.

Teknoman · Jan 22, 2015

Mortal Ray and turning away has been a mainstay in FF for awhile now or at least since FFXI and XII( I think).

Ken · Jan 22, 2015

Skip cutscene?

>Yes<

Kagari · Jan 22, 2015

In the end

Midgardsormr

is a dick. I don't think anyone can argue against that.

BadRNG · Jan 22, 2015

You probably should of opened with those lines, as that dialogue actually is massively different. The scene at the stones was still fairly accurate. Do you have the rest of the English portion for the scene? If it is like the other post, it's possible they reordered the information considerably in order to make it flow better in English. I don't remember offhand what he says after that part.

For the bolded, the wording/tone is massively different (which seems to be common in this game, another thing I am not a big fan of), but it's still same idea. The JPN text is just really explicit where the English relies on some information being understood implicitly by what is going on in the rest of the scene - we know he dispelled the light and is not going to hurt you due to some sort of pact with Hydalaen. There's not a huge need to go into detail and name the technique he used to do it or restate where your power comes from.

Also I think either I misunderstood you or you misunderstood me, when I said it's not necessarily her will, I was referring to him coming with you/removing your blessing. In both the Eng and JPN his agreement to her will seems more to the fact that you were chosen by her, so he cannot be the one to bring harm to you, as you are essentially under her protection.

I didn't mean to lecture you, but based on the text you provided it really seemed like you were complaining over nothing. As I said the KoL scene was way bigger comparison. Questioning how they translated is a lot different from saying it's all made up too.

RellyRell28 · Jan 22, 2015

Kagari said:
In the end

Midgardsormr

is a dick. I don't think anyone can argue against that.

Agreed that was an asshole thing to do.

Wilsongt · Jan 22, 2015

Kagari said:
In the end

Midgardsormr

is a dick. I don't think anyone can argue against that.

Indeed.

But, omg, best reward ever.

ponpo · Jan 22, 2015

Kagari said:
In the end

Midgardsormr

is a dick. I don't think anyone can argue against that.

I can. He sits on your shoulder like a true friend.

iammeiam · Jan 22, 2015

Ken said:
Skip cutscene?

>Yes<

My man.

Listening to a bunch of people watching cutscenes after secret trial, as far as I can tell all skipping cutscenes deprived me of was watching

Pokemon.

EndcatOmega · Jan 22, 2015

Kagari said:
In the end

Midgardsormr

is a dick. I don't think anyone can argue against that.

He/she is my favourite character. Finally, someone we can all emphasize with.

aceface · Jan 22, 2015

iammeiam said:
My man.

True love~ When's the wedding? (No really when is it, I'd like to go)

I'm not going to be able to complete the main scenario for like a week, these black bars are taunting me.

Frumix · Jan 22, 2015

BadRNG said:
I didn't mean to lecture you, but based on the text you provided it really seemed like you were complaining over nothing. As I said the KoL scene was way bigger comparison. Questioning how they translated is a lot different from saying it's all made up too.

You see this isn't the first time they make dubious changes that in my opinion take the wind out of the effect intended by original writers which is something the translation should absolutely not do.

For example, in Gilgamesh trial (2.2):

#6 こいつを食らえっ！ うおおおっ！　メガフレアっ！！
#6 Have at thee!
#6 Prenez donc ça! Mégaaaafissiooooon!
#6 Haha! Nehmt das!

The joke is that Pradamante is a copy of Nael's signature Bradamante weapon and Gilgamesh tried to use it to cast Megaflare. It's somehow kept in the French dialogue though! Solve that mystery.

And of course, the Shiva callout fuckup that rustles me endlessly:

#3 Embrace the serenity... Renounce the hatreds that consume you...
#4 And scatter them like dust in the wind...

#3 風よ、光よ、そのすべてを凍てつかせ、 世界に静寂をもたらせ！
#4 砕け散れ！　ダイアモンドダスト！

#3 Wind werde Eis, Licht friere ein zu glasklarem Strahl!
#4 Ahhh ... Zerbersten sollt ihr! Alle!

#3 Que le vent et la lumière gèlent tout ... et ramènent la paix dans ce monde!
#4 Que la Poussière de diamant vous réduise en éclats!

Edit: Well, French are on top of their game again.
But why remove the callout? It's an iconic attack that she possesses. Did they think it would be too cheesy? It's cheesy in Japanese. Did they just... not know how important it is?

And now this. It just makes me question how much of the translation misses small details like this.

aceface · Jan 22, 2015

Shiva one is way better and more classy. She refers to her attack in a badass way rather than yelling it out like an anime villain.

Alrus · Jan 22, 2015

Actually the french Shiva uses the name of the attack right there. The phrasing is super cheesy in a shonen way. I like the classier english version better, the reference is still there, just not in a super obvious calling out your attack way.

Kagari said:
In the end

Midgardsormr

is a dick. I don't think anyone can argue against that.

I love it, he pretty much calls out the main character about how he's been everybody else's bitch for the whole story

iammeiam said:
My man.

Listening to a bunch of people watching cutscenes after secret trial, as far as I can tell all skipping cutscenes deprived me of was watching

Pokemon.

Pokemon don't usually get their soul torn to pieces when they're in a pokeball though...

EndcatOmega · Jan 22, 2015

Alrus said:
Pokemon don't usually get their soul torn to pieces when they're in a pokeball though...

Says you.

Jayhawk · Jan 22, 2015

Who even has time for cut scenes when there are hunts to kill?

Kagari · Jan 22, 2015

Jayhawk said:
Who even has time for cut scenes when there are hunts to kill?

People who don't want to deal with all the griefing?

Jayhawk · Jan 22, 2015

Kagari said:
People who don't want to deal with all the griefing?

Your husbando isn't one of those people!

Kagari · Jan 22, 2015

Jayhawk said:
Your husbando isn't one of those people!

I am not accountable for his actions. <_<;

orion434 · Jan 22, 2015

There should be a confirmation when you press the cancel button on a craft, lost an Artisan Apron cause I dropped my controller and it hit just the right combination! lol

irfaanator · Jan 22, 2015

Kagari said:
I am not accountable for his actions. <_<;

trouble in paradise?

orion434 said:
There should be a confirmation when you press the cancel button on a craft, lost an Artisan Apron cause I dropped my controller and it hit just the right combination! lol

isnt that a drop in the bucket for you

orion434 · Jan 22, 2015

irfaanator said:
isnt that a drop in the bucket for you

I was crafting it for someone else, must have looked weird on his end. I gave him one I had on the MB, it was full anyway, I had the 1st one listed early yesterday and only one sold so far, think there were 16 last I checked... talk about saturated!

Acquired 5 Lucis tools so far, there is a bug with the dye, once you start crafting it reverts to default color

PhillipCostigan · Jan 22, 2015

Fuck you T9, you suck

irfaanator · Jan 22, 2015

orion434 said:
I was crafting it for someone else, must have looked weird on his end. I gave him one I had on the MB, it was full anyway, I had the 1st one listed early yesterday and only one sold so far, think there were 16 last I checked... talk about saturated!

Acquired 5 Lucis tools so far, there is a bug with the dye, once you start crafting it reverts to default color

ah I thought the body was also a turn in

studyguy · Jan 22, 2015

Literally sat there confused for like 10 minutes frustrated as to why I couldn't find the Dark Divinity after having done Primal Fear, etc quest for Odin

It's the Godquiver Bow's room that doesn't show up at the archers guild. ffs I was getting pissed as to why I didn't have a quest.
Completely forgot about that place

Kagari · Jan 22, 2015

irfaanator said:
trouble in paradise?

isnt that a drop in the bucket for you

No, I just don't police what he does.

tiggerkiddo · Jan 22, 2015

I miss when you actually had to wait for people to show an interest in showing for a marks.

Ken · Jan 22, 2015

PhillipCostigan said:
Fuck you T9, you suck

Scything is so anime.

Xux · Jan 22, 2015

Localization issues solved.

Wilsongt · Jan 22, 2015

Xux said:
Localization issues solved.

And yet there will be people who still bitch, bitch, bitch.

Shamdeo · Jan 22, 2015

Xux said:
Localization issues solved.

another HQ fern post

i love it

Moaradin · Jan 22, 2015

Xux said:
Localization issues solved.

Sounds good to me.

Kagari · Jan 22, 2015

Ken said:
Scything is so anime.

He looks like that dude from Last Remnant.

EndcatOmega · Jan 22, 2015

This is slander!

tiggerkiddo · Jan 22, 2015

I had no issues with the way he spoke with your character. People are just whiny!

irfaanator · Jan 22, 2015

EndcatOmega said:
This is slander!

if scything didnt have a girls face, I would almost say he was a guy

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