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[iammeiam]

Here's something I want to know, why is it a Bard and not a class with math I care about

I guess it has the more complex math with the Bloodletter modeling and all but still.

I like to think it's because bards can simultaneously obsess over math and not have to worry about it for serious because lolBRDDPS.

The best part of Bard Math is that you get a giant essay on single-clip vs double-clip openers, complete with an attempt to account for Bloodletter proccing a fraction of a second before it'd be off CD anyway--so seemingly worthless except that it lets you fire it off before another dot tick that could reproc that you would have missed waiting for natural CD, and then end the whole thing with "just do whatever feels right" because we're secretly just all in it for the hats.

Alternate answer: Because nobody actually cares about summoners.

 

[Curler]

*pokes in quickly* Darn, still no Amazon etc pre-order info for the CE?

 

[Jayhawk]

Speaking of FFXIV math...

https://dervyxiv.wordpress.com/2015/03/20/differences-in-jp-and-naeu-damage-formulas/

 

[scy]

Speaking of FFXIV math...

https://dervyxiv.wordpress.com/2015/03/20/differences-in-jp-and-naeu-damage-formulas/

This ... doesn't surprise me. Back when I was doing a lot of work on EO/Disgaea math, my methodology went more result oriented and curve-fitting. This led to trying to find more rounded formulas and really having issues with figuring out Random functions or "other" factors that a single-formula can't catch.

Anyway, so based off JP math we have job-related coefficients as well as a non-independent formula for Determination value? Wonder what this is going to do for existing stat weight stuff since, as far as I know, stat weight "updates" were merely based off A) Improved rotation math / modeling and B) Updating WD/Main Stat values to current gear levels.

 

[Sorian]

Speaking of FFXIV math...

https://dervyxiv.wordpress.com/2015/03/20/differences-in-jp-and-naeu-damage-formulas/

ZZZzzzzz, can someone translate and tell me how to BLM better?

 

[kirby2096]

Do you know what the Heavensward CE needs? A Security Token with the Heavensward motif. They could make the dragon statue hold it in some way too.

 

[iammeiam]

ZZZzzzzz, can someone translate and tell me how to BLM better?

As long as you stay in NA you are fine, but if you transfer to a JP server you will only do 80% of your current damage because of math.

 

[Valor]

Here's something I want to know, why is it a Bard and not a class with math I care about

I guess it has the more complex math with the Bloodletter modeling and all but still.

It's the only complexity we can add to the job, so... crunching numbers awayyyy

 

[irfaanator]

As long as you stay in NA you are fine, but if you transfer to a JP server you will only do 80% of your current damage because of math.

sounds about correct

 

[WolvenOne]

Since it's quiet.

I really hope one of the new Beastmen Dailies in the expansion, is akin the the Ixali crafting quests. The Ixali quests have been really helpful in getting classes leveled up, but I can't imagine anyone using them to get to 60. Course, it's also possible that they'll add another tier to all the existing Beastmen quests. Maybe not likely, but possible.

 

[Dervy]

This ... doesn't surprise me. Back when I was doing a lot of work on EO/Disgaea math, my methodology went more result oriented and curve-fitting. This led to trying to find more rounded formulas and really having issues with figuring out Random functions or "other" factors that a single-formula can't catch.

Anyway, so based off JP math we have job-related coefficients as well as a non-independent formula for Determination value? Wonder what this is going to do for existing stat weight stuff since, as far as I know, stat weight "updates" were merely based off A) Improved rotation math / modeling and B) Updating WD/Main Stat values to current gear levels.

Oh boy, never expected my post to make its way to 'gaf.

They change completely in Japan. They value Determination a lot more than we do and rate Crit lower, but that's because their Critical Hit Formula is garbage.

But yeah, the Job Coefficients, or well, variations in Jobs damage performance is true and I have a lot of data to prove it (which is also on another post on that blog).

Here's something I want to know, why is it a Bard and not a class with math I care about

I guess it has the more complex math with the Bloodletter modeling and all but still.

Where A = 1-(1-CRT*0.5)^2 (Or %chance of bloodletter)

TpBL = 1 / ((3)(A) + (6)(A(1-A)) + (9)(A(1-A)^2 ) + (12)(A(1-A)^3 ) + (15)((1-A)^4 ))

Then TpBL*150 = Bloodletter PPS.

It's the most complicated job to model

tl;dr, some math.

 

[Sorian]

As long as you stay in NA you are fine, but if you transfer to a JP server you will only do 80% of your current damage because of math.

And yet the wipe the floor with us in progression.

 

[Sorian]

Oh boy, never expected my post to make its way to 'gaf.

They change completely in Japan. They value Determination a lot more than we do and rate Crit lower, but that's because their Critical Hit Formula is garbage.

But yeah, the Job Coefficients, or well, variations in Jobs damage performance is true and I have a lot of data to prove it (which is also on another post on that blog).



Where A = 1-(1-CRT*0.5)^2 (Or %chance of bloodletter)

TpBL = ((3)(A) + (6)(A(1-A)) + (9)(A(1-A)^2 ) + (12)(A(1-A)^3 ) + (15)((1-A)^4 ))/1

Then TpBL*150 = Bloodletter PPS.

It's the most complicated job to model

tl;dr, some math.

You and Scy need to hang out more. Jayhawk can sit in too.

 

[dramatis]

Salami can go make some sandwiches for the mathematicians.

 

[Jayhawk]

I do enough math at work. Somebody else do it for me when I'm at home please.

 

[Sorian]

Salami can go make some sandwiches for the mathematicians.

Is this because Asami is female. I expected better from you Drama, that's sexist.

 

[iammeiam]

Oh man I'm suddenly too dumb for this thread.

I mean, it's an interesting read, but I'm not smart enough to link it to practical applications.

I need popcorn.

 

[dramatis]

Is this because Asami is female. I expected better from you Drama, that's sexist.

It's because we use salami in sandwiches.

 

[Jayhawk]

Oh man I'm suddenly too dumb for this thread.

I mean, it's an interesting read, but I'm not smart enough to link it to practical applications.

I need popcorn.

scy summed up the two key points to take away from this. The Japanese formulas have different coefficients for each job to account for the unexpected values people would get when applying the same formula to different jobs.

Also, determination is not mutually independent of weapon damage and your main damage stat. This complicates the comparisons between an i110 crafted piece with more determination versus an i130 piece without any determination because of statistical dependencies between DET and main stat.

I wouldn't worry about it too much at this point with Heavensward coming. The changes to skill/spell speed will drastically change how damage works in the game. Skill speed will be king!

 

[iammeiam]

I

scy summed up the two key points to take away from this. The Japanese formulas have different coefficients for each job to account for the unexpected values people would get when applying the same formula to different jobs.

Also, determination is not mutually independent of weapon damage and your main damage stat. This complicates the comparisons between an i110 crafted piece with more determination versus an i130 piece without any determination because of statistical dependencies between DET and main stat.

Oh god you actually think I can't read.

I know how stat weights work, and the job coefficient or cal difference is pretty straightforward in concept, but aside from "JP does Det different" I didn't see any conclusion that JP is doing Det right vs NA.

It's more I have no idea how you figure out whose Det values are actually better.

Also wow @ that Bloodletter calculation.

 

[scy]

Oh boy, never expected my post to make its way to 'gaf.

They change completely in Japan. They value Determination a lot more than we do and rate Crit lower, but that's because their Critical Hit Formula is garbage.

But yeah, the Job Coefficients, or well, variations in Jobs damage performance is true and I have a lot of data to prove it (which is also on another post on that blog).

lol. Hard to imagine that, actually, considering how much we value Determination in general too.

Yeah, I'd need to run through the formulas more to see how that all pans out. The jobs themselves mattering makes sense but, man, kind of funny it was pretty much ignored this whole time.

It's the most complicated job to model

tl;dr, some math.

Or just the most fun one to model~!

Kind of looking forward to adjustments to SSPD in the expansion for Summoners and our SSPD proc.

Oh god you actually think I can't read.

Does that have numbers?

 

[Jayhawk]

Oh god you actually think I can't read.

My Angary expectation formula is like a sine wave. UP ONE MOMENT, DOWN THE NEXT. BLOODBORNE CARRY TIME?

 

[Valor]

Oh boy, never expected my post to make its way to 'gaf.

They change completely in Japan. They value Determination a lot more than we do and rate Crit lower, but that's because their Critical Hit Formula is garbage.

But yeah, the Job Coefficients, or well, variations in Jobs damage performance is true and I have a lot of data to prove it (which is also on another post on that blog).

TIL JPS really is a thing. Interesting.

 

[Jayhawk]

TIL JPS really is a thing. Interesting.

Galens per second (GPS) still the best.

 

[XenoRaven]

Skill speed will be king!

This is probably not a great question to be asking after playing Dragoon for a year and a half, but does Skill Speed affect the recovery of your GCDs? Like will Invigorate come back faster if I have higher SS, or will high SS cause you to drain TP faster?

 

[WolvenOne]

This is probably not a great question to be asking after playing Dragoon for a year and a half, but does Skill Speed affect the recovery of your GCDs? Like will Invigorate come back faster if I have higher SS, or will high SS cause you to drain TP faster?

As far as I know, no, Skill Speed does not seem to shorten your CD durations.

 

[Gamer @ Heart]

This is probably not a great question to be asking after playing Dragoon for a year and a half, but does Skill Speed affect the recovery of your GCDs? Like will Invigorate come back faster if I have higher SS, or will high SS cause you to drain TP faster?

Right now its only the latter.

 

[Jayhawk]

This is probably not a great question to be asking after playing Dragoon for a year and a half, but does Skill Speed affect the recovery of your GCDs? Like will Invigorate come back faster if I have higher SS, or will high SS cause you to drain TP faster?

Bullets to cover different aspects regarding skill speed.

• Skill speed reduces the GCD.
• Invigorate is an off-GCD ability.
• Skill speed does not affect off-GCD abilities.
• Skill speed does not affect the duration of any buffs.
• Skill speed does affect the amount of GCDs you can get in while a buff is up. Hence some people want to meet certain thresholds to get as many hits in during buffs like Berserk or Perfect Balance.
• Skill speed does not affect auto-attack speed.
• Increasing skill speed will increase your GCD actions over time ratio, therefore consuming more TP.

 

[Dervy]

lol. Hard to imagine that, actually, considering how much we value Determination in general too.w

Yeah, I'd need to run through the formulas more to see how that all pans out. The jobs themselves mattering makes sense but, man, kind of funny it was pretty much ignored this whole time.

We value DET closer to 0.32 on most jobs (except DoW jobs), they value it at nearly 0.4 lmao. That's a huge difference and the reasoning behind this is exactly what Jayhawk described.

I don't know what to believe either anymore

 

[WolvenOne]

Right now its only the latter.

In 3.0 it'll also affect Dot Tick-speed. So, if TP regen scales, or they make CD duration shorter, (assuming every class has access to something like invigorate,) Skill/Spell Speed should be about fixed.

If it's only the dot thing though, well it'll be OP for Dot classes, maybe.

 

[XenoRaven]

Bullets to cover different aspects regarding skill speed.

• Skill speed reduces the GCD.
• Invigorate is an off-GCD ability.
• Skill speed does not affect off-GCD abilities.
• Skill speed does not affect the duration of any buffs.
• Skill speed does affect the amount of GCDs you can get in while a buff is up. Hence some people want to meet certain thresholds to get as many hits in during buffs like Berserk or Perfect Balance.
• Skill speed does not affect auto-attack speed.
• Increasing skill speed will increase your GCD actions over time ratio, therefore consuming more TP.

Yeah, I meant off-GCD. Whoops.

Thanks for the info guys.

 

[Valor]

In 3.0 it'll also affect Dot Tick-speed. So, if TP regen scales, or they make CD duration shorter, (assuming every class has access to something like invigorate,) Skill/Spell Speed should be about fixed.

If it's only the dot thing though, well it'll be OP for Dot classes, maybe.

It should be said that this was an example given as to what they could do to make Skill/Spell Speed more valuable, but isn't confirmed as to being what they're actually going to do.

 

[scy]

We value DET closer to 0.32 on most jobs (except DoW jobs), they value it at nearly 0.4 lmao. That's a huge difference and the reasoning behind this is exactly what Jayhawk described.

I don't know what to believe either anymore

Oh yeah, it's a huge difference I just more meant the community perspective on it. The general advice is always about Determ above all (barring fringe cases) so it's weird to imagine JP side being ... well, the same except ~30% more.

And, yeah, hard to imagine some of these job things. Really brings some light to the lower BLM stat weights at least I suppose.

It should be said that this was an example given as to what they could do to make Skill/Spell Speed more valuable, but isn't confirmed as to being what they're actually going to do.

Could always be lazy about things and make SSPD just ... extend DoT duration instead. I'd laugh at that, anyway.

 

[EriksBlue]

Don't do iiiiiiiiiiiiit! D:

D: But will I do for 3 months?! TELL MEE HUSBANDO!!

 

[Jayhawk]

I don't know what to believe either anymore

We have so much gear available to us now to control our main damage stat, weapon damage, and determination that there is the possibility of testing, testing, testing, and more testing to see how accurate the formulas are.

What irks me with the Bloodletter ability and its formula is that it depends on the randomness of the server's DoT tick timer. The tick that happens in the 12s to 15s timeframe could happen so close to the cooldown being finished. Or you have to deal with a GCD animation delay in that time frame before you can pop Bloodletter off-GCD. In either case, the proc from River of Blood is irrelevent.

Does your Bloodletter formula account for the 20% chance a crit Windbite tick resets the cooldown? It seems like the formula only accounts for the River of Blood trait.

 

[iammeiam]

I thought the proposed SSPEED fix was DoT tick strength, not DoT tick speed anyway.

Changing DoT tick speed would be a massive undertaking given that HoTs/DoTs tick on a pulse of the impacted target and not the caster. They'd have to, like, flip everything around.

 

[Ken]

1+1=3

 

[Dervy]

Does your Bloodletter formula account for the 20% chance a crit Windbite tick resets the cooldown? It seems like the formula only accounts for the River of Blood trait.

Yup, and that's why I'm testing everything... again.

(Nerd History). There was a guy called Kenji1334 I believe it was, who had another potency formula he made for the Black Mage. His value of Determination was also influence by Attack Power, by a very minuscule amount. So much in fact, you could remove the AP*DRT part of the formula and it would of made no difference. The same applies to the Damage formula we all currently use, which was made by a guy called EasyModeX. His formula also had AP*DRT part, but it was something like AP*DRT*0.000001. lol.

Also, since when was there a 20% chance Windbite resets Bloodletter cooldown? It's always just been River of Blood, no?

 

[DarknessTear]

1+1=3

I was right to believe in you!

 

[Jayhawk]

Also, since when was there a 20% chance Windbite resets Bloodletter cooldown? It's always just been River of Blood, no?

There is a message on the tooltip for Windbite as soon as you get it. Since I am not at home playing the game, I cannot verify. Some sites have conflicting information! >_<

I guess it was changed in a patch? I DON'T REMEMBER NOW.

 

[iammeiam]

There is a message on the tooltip for Windbite as soon as you get it. Since I am not at home playing the game, I cannot verify. Some sites have conflicting information! >_<

I guess it was changed in a patch? I DON'T REMEMBER NOW.

River of Blood only procs on DoT crits so I have no idea why windbite would get its own thing. Stop confusing me I can barely bard as it is.

 

[Trojita]

Running another fever . This time it feels less hot, I took a reading this time and my temperature is 102 degrees ( possibly more since these electronic ones are always lower than real temp).

 

[Jayhawk]

River of Blood only procs on DoT crits so I have no idea why windbite would get its own thing. Stop confusing me I can barely bard as it is.

RIP These sites having outdated information.

http://www.ffxivguild.com/ffxiv-a-realm-reborn-archer/
http://www.ffxivinfo.com/class/archer.php
http://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Archer

And these sites have conflicting information if critical hit rate is involved in River of Blood!

http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/River_of_Blood
http://xivdb.com/?skill/90055/River-of-Blood
http://www.ffxivinfo.com/class/archer.php?ability=river-of-blood

BARD IS TOO CONFUSING

 

[Redx508]

Running another fever . This time it feels less hot, I took a reading this time and my temperature is 102 degrees ( possibly more since these electronic ones are always lower than real temp).

get well soon

 

[Jayhawk]

Somebody should contact those incorrect sites to get them to fix their descriptions of Windbite and River of Blood... or get Google to stop ranking those wrong sites so high with their rankings.

EDIT: Reading up different games' DoT systems just to get an idea of different ways the skill speed/spell speed changes could affect this game. I didn't know WoW changed their DoT+haste system in WoD. I like the new WoW system.

 

[Xux]

Somebody should contact those incorrect sites to get them to fix their descriptions of Windbite and River of Blood... or get Google to stop ranking those wrong sites so high with their rankings.

EDIT: Reading up different games' DoT systems just to get an idea of different ways the skill speed/spell speed changes could affect this game. I didn't know WoW changed their DoT+haste system in WoD. I like the new WoW system.

You could just edit GamerEscape since it is a wiki.

 

[Jayhawk]

You could just edit GamerEscape since it is a wiki.

I can't verify what is correct without the game in front of me, so I will just complain!

 

[studyguy]

Bard is way too confusing. That's why only Repelling shot is on my bar

 

[Frumix]

Bard is way too confusing. That's why only Repelling shot is on my bar

But when you master it you too can do 1000 dps (but not per second).

 

[Sorian]

Somebody should contact those incorrect sites to get them to fix their descriptions of Windbite and River of Blood... or get Google to stop ranking those wrong sites so high with their rankings.

EDIT: Reading up different games' DoT systems just to get an idea of different ways the skill speed/spell speed changes could affect this game. I didn't know WoW changed their DoT+haste system in WoD. I like the new WoW system.

Were they doing speed makes dots tick and finish faster and also cause your resource to regen faster? That's what SWTOR does and I think I remember people saying that was a copy of recent WoW.