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Final Fantasy XIV |OT7| 1000 years DRAGONSONG War

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V

Valor

Member
I need a localized version of this argument because it seems to be something indecipherable to me.

I think it's a case of what is being said and how things are being said isn't jiving together.
 
R

rubius01

Member
Redx508 said:
don't forget about bk chicken fries
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Me and french fires are pregnant!

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creid

creid

Member
Frumix said:
When I complain about Nael deus Darnus reveal
as a lady-all-along being butchered, I complain not because words don't match, I complain because localization team robbed Western audiences of a Samus Aran moment that influences how we perceive that character.
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Wait... seriously? This wasn't clear at all from the English script, what was the Japanese script like?
 
A

Aselith

Member
Frumix said:
Gonna just move the reply here because it was getting way off topic in FFXV


These strawmen are so massive I can't see sunlight.
You are making it about me, I don't.
I never once claim expertise or high horse in any of these discussions and I don't make any more assumptions than you do, except your assumptions just must be correct because they support your point of view! I never once said English script is "totally wrong", you're making shit that right up.

Look, I'm tired of the whole "localization" bullshit excuse. What you're describing with the roadshow example isn't localization. It's translation. The word "roadshow" in your example isn't even English language. It's arguing semantics somewhat, but loanwords very quickly stop counting as words of another language, like English word babushka means a type of head wear, it's not a Russian word anymore. And so on.

People keep using "localization" to justify any sort of change, but that's not what a localization is. Localization is an entirely extra-linguistic process. Removing skeletons in Chinese version of the game is also localization, for example. It has nothing to do with any critiques I have towards the script.

The "people do it for a living" defense also doesn't stand because as a consumer we are allowed to be critical of products we are presented with. For what it's worth, translation is what I also do for a living. First you tell me I claim to be competent then you deny me that. How fancy. But coming back to it, my criticisms are all about the story and here is how.

When I complain about Nael deus Darnus reveal as a lady-all-along being butchered, I complain not because words don't match, I complain because localization team robbed Western audiences of a Samus Aran moment that influences how we perceive that character.
When Midgardsormr lines are changed, sometimes partially sometimes completely, when Ysayle is written more angrier in English than desperate, when some of the lines that shed light on what her character is about are replaced with haha-so-clever "Answers" references, it alters the way we perceive the character again.
Haurchefant is kind of an unoffensive example because he's a joke character, but even then changing his flamboyant nature in writing doesn't match up with the way he acts and that creates a disconnect (which other people called out for me, I didn't even know about it for the longest time).

Basically all of these changes aren't a problem on their own, I don't complain about FATE/quest names being changed to pop culture references even though personally I feel it's grating and breaks immersion because that content doesn't influence how half the people playing the game are taking the story. It's all about the story for me. I never complained about these things just because I wanted to complain or feel superior on the Internet or something. I complained because I found discrepancies that confused me, and might have misled me, and since I actually love this game and invest so much time into it, I feel that this is an important and an interesting topic that's being ignored because according to fanboys like you KOJI DOES NO WRONG.

And of course I don't talk about good translation decisions of which there is a metric ton. I like the way beast tribe speech was handled (and honestly it's better in English). I like that translators even THINK about such thing as a character voice. That's a high level of professionalism. However in product development mistakes and miscommunications happen, and I have all the right to be curious about that and call developers out on them.

I get it, I don't have the most pleasant online personality. It's fine if you don't like me. But you're doing your argument a disservice slashing away at these strawmen. You're not interested in discussing translation, you're interested in displaying how pissed off you are at a guy online that says something disagreeable.
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med_510655227df46c016f.jpg
 
I

iammeiam

Member
I wish I had more eyes to roll at people saying guys in dresses would break their immersion. Alas, I'll just have to roll the two I do have extra hard.
 
F

Frumix

Suffering From Success
creid said:
Wait... seriously? This wasn't clear at all from the English script, what was the Japanese script like?
Click to expand...

I honestly can't find any 1.0 quest data so I can't tell you how it was in 1.0 and for how long the ruse went, but in ARR, in Japanese dialogue Nael uses gender-neutral pronouns and at one point unambiguously states that she was in fact a lady:
a6zvMlD.jpg
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"The weak can do naught but weep under the pall of their own misery. As did the frail child I once was..."
In Japanese (pictured) it's "girl" and not "child", and there's no references anywhere else to the aetherial recreation of Nael being in any way changed, anywhere. All of them were added in. That's why the "So who does T9 deus Darnus look like" question makes no sense and why there's no answer to it from the lore devs. I think it was meant to be some kind of Samus Aran moment. That's what Japanese playerbase thinks at least.

I've been told Nael in 1.0 uses male Elezen animation model which leads me to believe this wasn't always the intent, that localization team at the time didn't even know about this ruse (I think the whole Dalamud plot was made up by Yoshida himself?) and the fact that in Japanese gender-neutral pronouns were used led to this mess. Instead of just biting the bullet they came up with a confusing and misleading explanation. GG.
 
D

dramatis

Member
Frumix said:
These strawmen are so massive I can't see sunlight.
You are making it about me, I don't.
I never once claim expertise or high horse in any of these discussions and I don't make any more assumptions than you do, except your assumptions just must be correct because they support your point of view! I never once said English script is "totally wrong", you're making shit that right up.

Look, I'm tired of the whole "localization" bullshit excuse. What you're describing with the roadshow example isn't localization. It's translation. The word "roadshow" in your example isn't even English language. It's arguing semantics somewhat, but loanwords very quickly stop counting as words of another language, like English word babushka means a type of head wear, it's not a Russian word anymore. And so on.
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Roadshow is an actual English word that fell out of use for its intent in the 1970s.

And here we are.

Frumix said:
Coming back to questionable localization decisions - because there just haven't been enough of those - it was brought to my attention that Summoner's relic, the name of which has been bugging me for the longest time, is actually a preservation of a somewhat infamous mistranslation of a grimoire of the same name from Final Fantasy Tactics - and should be Oeilvert.

Which makes infinitely more sense.
What doesn't is why the fuck they saw fit to reference an old ass mistranslation. It's like if a new Castlevania game unironically recreated the "Die, monster" dialogue for no reason other than the translator wanting to go "Us, nerds right?" at the audience. Or if coming across an ill guy we'd be greeted by a character telling us that this guy are indeed sick.

And don't tell me it's lore preservation or anything, because lore preservation reasons don't restrict them from plugging the game choke full of random pop culture references and in-jokes because it's more MMOey that way.

Je devrais apprendre le francais. At least French localization team doesn't disrespect their players so much.
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Frumix said:
Because the summoner lady that wielded the book had green eyes. In Japanese, that's her name, Oeilvert, and the book is called after her, all in a reference to the Oeilvert in Tactics. She also was Elezen so it makes sense that she had a French-y nickname.
I can get behind the tradition argument but then there's Cherry Blossom, I mean, Chaos Thrust.
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Frumix said:
Like I said I am revising Main Scenario in preparation for 2.55 and HW and once again I have stumbled upon a piece of translation inconsistency that possibly rivals that one concerning Midgardsormr but is not entirely unconnected.

In the story, Iceheart, or rather Priestess of the Frost, appears genuinely angry at the player character and outright calls them blind followers of the will of others that begets war. However, Japanese script characterizes Ysayle a bit differently. She's dumbfounded that her desires and hopes were not enough, and her informing us of the presence of an underlying reason behind the Dragonsong war looks like a plea rather than an angry accusation. Ignoring cheeky unfounded references to "Answers" (in Japanese, it's just a callback to Haydelyn's call of "Hear, Feel, Think" and that's it) it was Ysayle who first relayed to the adventurer that we're to be prepared to fight with our own strengths rather than falling back on the blessing of Hyadelyn, which connects her to Midgardsormr, and this is only passingly implied in English version. Furthermore I don't like how the fact that the player character is a dumb slave to somebody else's will is a persisting narrative in the English script. Regardless of how true that might feel to actual players, this just isn't what they're going for with the Japanese script.

I'm seriously astonished and it seems discrepancies might run far deeper than just "Oh, dragons speak like that, deal with it - Koji, 2015"
While these alterations I see never drastically alter the whole of the story, some of the characterization choices and finer details are definitely questionable.
And I swear if they use the expression "to rise to the chorus" one more time...
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Frumix said:
Middy just calls you the messenger of Hydaelyn. His comments contain nothing of weight in English or Japanese.

As for GC leaders, their hands might really be tied up. Shit's going down, primals everywhere, their people look up to them, but not unanimously, perhaps they're not making the right decisions but you can kinda see where they're coming from and how united Eorzea was always a mere pipe dream.
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Frumix said:
XIV... I can't judge its localization without wanting to slap a Koji. Localization team (English one at least) supposedly works closely with the Japanese writing and lore team, but the result of this is interesting. While the original script is very clear and simple, English writers feel the need to high-fantasy everything up as much as possible, complete with fauxperean, 'eres and theres and sometimes the text is so full of this it's genuinely hard to read. But what's more, there's edits and alterations, ranging from somewhat innocent ones like refusing to use Fire-Fira-Firaga convention and making it Fire 1 and Fire 2 (only the English client does this) and removing anime-style callouts of attacks from bosses' dialogue to the point where entire cutscenes and characterizations are rewritten so much that interpretation of certain scenes by the English players changes completely. It's so weird for a game that people speaking different languages can enjoy side-by-side. Of all the translations the closest one appears to be French.
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Frumix said:
Language of dragons excuse is bullshit because I found some narrative changes that were in line with that Midgardsormr scene and it wasn't a dragon speaking!
And they didn't say the dialogue was written in English first - they said it was adjusted when translated based on their idea of the character.
Furthermore, there is such a person as the main writer, and he's Japanese. If I see discrepancies in two different dialogues trying to convey the same one story, I'd like to know why they're there.
There absolutely are points left out of the English script and some brought in that aren't even implied in the Japanese. You need to squint really hard to convince yourself there aren't.
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Frumix said:
Well first of all, some original intent must exist. It doesn't matter if it's in English or Japanese. I know that English team helps with creating the lore, writing song lyrics and stuff like that, but we're talking about dialogue here. Somebody must've wrote it and somebody must've had an idea of what they were going for. The idea that was changed and now there's two versions of it. I don't really care how much freedom the English team has, there's still version differences, they still deserve to be called out. It's still a translation, you know? It's not like they completely rewrote everything.

This localization team can't fix descriptions of spells for months on end. I don't exactly trust them to be 100% competent 100% of the time. It might've stemmed from an honest miscommunication or a misplaced intent.
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Yeah, but you have to write dialogue in a way the viewer would understand. The discrepancy in characterization is there. In Japanese, there is no special stylistic alternation to Mid's speech except for pseudoarchaic speech used quite widely for characters of such type. But in English, an extra characterization idea is brought in. Again, I shall point you to how players get a strikingly different impression from the dialogue even though the overall meaning, as you and K-F claim, is unchanged.
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http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=148604081&postcount=12358
So how is this not making things up? This is something that English side did and is completely misrepresented in Japanese then. They can't seem to agree on characterization? So much for that direct connection with the writers?
Somehow, highly intelligent dragons are unable to express themselves in more than a few words because they're... old?
Okay.
I don't get it.
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http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=148550165&postcount=12301
Anyway. Since I habitually play with the Japanese voiceover, I couldn't help but notice what could lightly be called discrepancy between the original dialogue and the translation.

Apparently bosses in WP Hard are called after made-up adjectives in Carroll's Jabberwocky which isn't the case in the original. But whatever, this isn't so big right?

Let's compare further.
From the quest The Rising Chorus:

#66 Minfilia Let us keep this matter to ourselves. I do not wish to burden our friends needlessly.
#67 Midgardsormr Art thou a pawn, or master of thy fate?
#68 Midgardsormr What hast thou wrought by thine own hands, mortal?
#69 Minfilia Would that we could discern the nature of the covenant between Hydaelyn and Midgardsormr...

#66 Minfilia この件は、わたしの胸に留めておきます……。 みんなを不安にさせては、いけないもの。
I will keep this matter to myself. We should avoid causing others unease.
#67 Midgardsormr 不安に思うことはない……。 我が楔は、光の加護を封じただけ……汝の身体を蝕みはせぬ。 汝の力そのものは、変わらずその身に宿っている。
Though there's no reason for that. My fang has merely removed the protection of Light. No harm came to your body. You own power is still well within you.
#68 Midgardsormr ひとりのヒトとして、いかなる道を切り開くか……。 傍らで見物させてもらおう。
Will you carve your own path as a mere human? I'll keep watch over you.
#69 Minfilia 幻龍とハイデリン……どんな関係があるのかしら。 想像は尽きないわね。
It's hard to imagine what kind of connection there is between Midgardsormr and Hydaelyn.

This is basically entirely different thing!

The entire Keeper of the Lake cutscene is just mangled beyond belief.
It definitely uses less lelmemes, is much less confusing and portrays Midgardsormr as a much less malevolent being.
Midgardsormr is watching over you so that you don't go against his wishes and also to test you and warns you of a trial ahead, not because some ancient magic binds his avatar to you.
English dialogue is just... largely madeup.
I'll continue my research and try to compare the scripts.
There's localization and then there's just pulling this shit.
People who say "Oh, the localization is well, it works within the context" simply are unaware of what the context even was before Koji came here.
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http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=148293653&postcount=11947
Spoilerish: http://i.imgur.com/r2m32u1.jpg
Actual run of this box in Japanese is like 3 sentences.
Fuck off Koji. The translation for storyline dialogue is particularly "let's just make shit up" this time.
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http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=137363956&postcount=1103
In the Japanese version Shiva actually calls her Diamond Dust attack out in the dialogue, but not in the English. You keep doing that, localization team? First you butchered Gilgamesh, now this? The hell is wrong with you?

Koji, recompose.
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http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=130880918&postcount=13010
Jayhawk said:
At least I was able to indicate to my JP party that I play the game and I wanted to be the sukoraa and my friend the barudo as I acted out archery motions.
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Gakusha! It's gakusha!
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Now that I've revisited your posts, I can certainly sense some resentment towards Koji Fox. I am not a particular fan of the story or the dialogue, I think it's largely serviceable. So labeling me a fanboy is a jump to conclusions on your part. However, the wealth of your posts listed here indicate a clear fixation on picking on the English localization often for the smallest, pettiest things like the name of a goddamn book. Above is the proof of your perpetual "BUT THIS IS THE JAPANESE" behavior for the past months. Exclamations like, "You guys butchered Gilgamesh!" and "Fuck off Koji" and "The entire Keeper of the Lake cutscene is just mangled beyond belief" are exhibits of your resentment.

Am I building a strawman? Hardly. I spent my time noting your arguments and moving on largely because I consider them just idle nitpicks of someone who prides himself on being able to read the Japanese script. Perhaps you don't realize the great amount of effort you expended on the issue, which is why you take offense when I poke fun at you for it.

"At least French localization team doesn't disrespect their players so much"? Do you think the English players are stupid and complacent because they don't care that the localization doesn't match the Japanese? We don't need you telling us, thank you. We can judge and discuss for ourselves, and not on the merits of how the script doesn't match the Japanese, but on the merits of the story.

So here is the end of it: What the localization does is serviceable and executed decently in the English language, without relating it back to Japanese. The difference between what is done with FF14 and "Moms are tough" is that 14's labors do not send us flying into cringe on the basis of the English alone. The story is conveyed neatly in English, giving the dragons mystique and adding flourishes to the world. So what is the problem here other than your personal issue with how the English you play isn't word for word the Japanese? (This question is rhetorical. (This is additional dialogue so you fully understand me.))
 
F

Frumix

Suffering From Success
dramatis said:
I spent my time noting your arguments and moving on largely because I consider them just idle nitpicks of someone who prides himself on being able to read the Japanese script. Perhaps you don't realize the great amount of effort you expended on the issue, which is why you take offense when I poke fun at you for it.
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The irony is real.

irfaanator said:
If I've ever learned anything from this game, it's dont fuck with drama
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Because she's a person who can't keep their emotions out of Internet discussions and is quickly approaching my levels of immaturity? Yeah that'd be it.
I don't even know what her argument is anymore other than "What you care about is not what I care about, shut up".
 
P

Pyros_Eien

Member
mre said:
Anyone know how/when you get the preorder bonuses if you ordered off PSN?
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What bonus, the items and stuff? It gets mailed to you ingame once the game releases. If you mean early access, I think they give you a code like other retailers and you have to add it to your mogstation, but not 100% sure on that.
 
A

aceface

Member
Frumix said:
"The weak can do naught but weep under the pall of their own misery. As did the frail child I once was..."
In Japanese (pictured) it's "girl" and not "child", and there's no references anywhere else to the aetherial recreation of Nael being in any way changed, anywhere. All of them were added in. That's why the "So who does T9 deus Darnus look like" question makes no sense and why there's no answer to it from the lore devs. I think it was meant to be some kind of Samus Aran moment. That's what Japanese playerbase thinks at least.

I've been told Nael in 1.0 uses male Elezen animation model which leads me to believe this wasn't always the intent, that localization team at the time didn't even know about this ruse (I think the whole Dalamud plot was made up by Yoshida himself?) and the fact that in Japanese gender-neutral pronouns were used led to this mess. Instead of just biting the bullet they came up with a confusing and misleading explanation. GG.
Click to expand...

It seems as if in Japanese Nael had always been refered to by gender neutral pronouns, while in English the localization team not knowing any better had every character referring to Nael as "he" for two games. So the question here is come up with a convoluted explanation why Nael is now a girl or come up with a convoluted explanation as to why everyone even from the Empire referred to Nael as a he. Maybe the latter would have been better but explaining why everyone was pretending he was a man seems like it would have been tougher in that particular cutscene to convey believably. Just my two cents.
 
R

Redx508

Member
mre said:
Anyone know how/when you get the preorder bonuses if you ordered off PSN?
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PlayStation®3 / PlayStation®4 (PSN download version)
Promotion code registration is not necessary. Early access and the bonus items were automatically linked to your Sony Entertainment Network account at the time you pre-ordered the game.
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.
 
F

Frumix

Suffering From Success
aceface said:
It seems as if in Japanese Nael had always been refered to by gender neutral pronouns, while in English the localization team not knowing any better had every character referring to Nael as "he" for two games. So the question here is come up with a convoluted explanation why Nael is now a girl or come up with a convoluted explanation as to why everyone even from the Empire referred to Nael as a he. Maybe the latter would have been better but explaining why everyone was pretending he was a man seems like it would have been tougher in that particular cutscene to convey believably. Just my two cents.
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Yeah that was probably it. I'm just wondering if it might come back to haunt them if and when we get to revisit the Empire.
 
L

Lonestar

I joined for Erin Brockovich discussion
mre said:
Anyone know how/when you get the preorder bonuses if you ordered off PSN?
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Redx508 said:
.
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Hmm, sounds easier than the steps on PC. Think I got everything in order. Bought on Steam, searched through it's CD Key page, found the mogstation account page, logged in like 83 times, randomly searched until I found a page that let me add a service, pasted that CD key, and now it says Heavensward on my list. As well as 83 retainers and 14 new Minfilia companion dolls. Easy.
 
W

WolvenOne

Member
Frumix said:
Yeah that was probably it. I'm just wondering if it might come back to haunt them if and when we get to revisit the Empire.
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Probably not. Nael's story is done so I doubt that character will ever be mentioned much again except in terms of how the backstory might relate to current events.

Even then, I doubt we'll hear anything more about Nael. Much of ARR and the subsequent patches were designed to wrap up 1.0 plot elements. It'd be weird for them to spend much more time on those 1.0 plot elements after spending so much time wrapping them up.
 
creid

creid

Member
Frumix said:
I've been told Nael in 1.0 uses male Elezen animation model which leads me to believe this wasn't always the intent, that localization team at the time didn't even know about this ruse (I think the whole Dalamud plot was made up by Yoshida himself?) and the fact that in Japanese gender-neutral pronouns were used led to this mess. Instead of just biting the bullet they came up with a confusing and misleading explanation. GG.
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Ah, I see. This sucks, but I can sympathize with the loc team on this one. In English, 1.x Nael was clearly referred to as male, the English script would not have been able to get away with being gender-neutral forever, and there's no non-silly way to explain away why everyone mistook Nael's gender. I guess "aetherial recreation" is kind of silly too, though...
 
E

Eldren

Member
Jayhawk said:
Now did they mention if these new glamour sets are from a special event involving quests, an NPC vendor, desynthed from fish, or.......... CRAFTED?!
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Fishing, glamour, crafting - the real endgame, the true MMORPG Trinity.
I selfishly hope it's either of the first two because those will be the least expensive options
 
W

WolvenOne

Member
irfaanator said:
square needs to take some lessons from arcsys on making butts. Qhon knows what im talking about. So does Ash
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From what I remember, this attribute of the models was chosen to save some polygons here and there. So basically, PS3 Limitations.

Maybe something will change when PS3 support is dropped, but I somehow doubt it. I think they would need to rework/tweak some of the armor model sets if they changed things too dramatically. They'll probably decide those resources could best we used in some other way.
 
V

Valor

Member
Frumix said:
Because she's a person who can't keep their emotions out of Internet discussions and is quickly approaching my levels of immaturity? Yeah that'd be it.
I don't even know what her argument is anymore other than "What you care about is not what I care about, shut up".
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You're just embarrassing. You brought this shit pile here and now don't even have the decency to try and sweep it up.

As for Nael, there isn't exactly a gender-neutral equivalent in English. "He" is actually a relatively gender neutral pronoun in the language and has been used as one for some time. Man and men are also considered to be gender neutral. Just because someone uses the pronoun of he or him and uses man or men doesn't mean necessarily that the subject is always male in gender.

So basically no one here really knows what they're talking about when it comes to Nael's incarnation by the English localization team and, in fact, it is 100% correct to be used as such the exact way it is written.

There are countless explanations for why Nael appears the way she does in Turn 9 and for her confusion about her appearance. It isn't spelled out because there's a time and a place to discuss these things. Didn't Koji Fox also allegedly say in an interview that we never saw under Nael's mask so who knows what's there? There's this quote:

[Y]ou can think that Nael started going crazy after that whole incident with Bradamante. As for that being Bradamante, that isn’t. That isn’t. As for who it might be… speculate speculate speculate! As for Nael van Darnus being a female… up until recently, no one has seen under that mask, so when you never see what’s under a mask, people start to assume things. So, yeah! What really was under the mask of Nael van Darnus?
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-Delicious OF sauce

Maybe you should give the localization team a little bit of credit for untangling what could actually be a messy transition from Japanese to English. Even looking back at the Acheron example, that was the Japanese team making shit difficult for them, not the other way around.

TL;DR maybe experts on Japanese culture don't know as much as they think they do.
 
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