That's because things aren't so peachy-keen with Luminous.
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Final Fantasy XIV |OT7| 1000 years DRAGONSONG War
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That's because things aren't so peachy-keen with Luminous.
Couldn't sleep at all during the night, no matter how much I tried, so I decided to have some fun with the DF! Spent most of my night in T12 with all sorts of random groups. Tanks who didn't pick up bennus, failed passing of brands, missed redfires, people standing in blackfires, and the mystical 5 bennus of legend all appeared.
After much failure, though, me and Dani finally found a successful T12 group! We practically 7 manned most of the fight, too, because the ninja dced at the beginning of the bird phase and couldn't seem to stay connected for more than 5 seconds. This led to the 2 SCH team of me and the other healer having to pretend like we can AoE heal through 15 stacks of bird buff. But hey, all the matters is that we succeeded and I got a carbontwine for all my suffering!
Thanks a lot to both Miyu and Dani for putting up with me and the DF throughout the night! Definitely helped me pass the time.
Edit: Also, magical things happen at night, it would seem.
After much failure, though, me and Dani finally found a successful T12 group! We practically 7 manned most of the fight, too, because the ninja dced at the beginning of the bird phase and couldn't seem to stay connected for more than 5 seconds. This led to the 2 SCH team of me and the other healer having to pretend like we can AoE heal through 15 stacks of bird buff. But hey, all the matters is that we succeeded and I got a carbontwine for all my suffering!
Thanks a lot to both Miyu and Dani for putting up with me and the DF throughout the night! Definitely helped me pass the time.
Edit: Also, magical things happen at night, it would seem.
PhillipCostigan
Member
rip Ari
lol
lol
DarknessTear
Banned
Wow, rekt.
See, I don't think you would, really. When you get "translation" you get shit like "This guy are sick" and "All your base are belong to us" and "Welcome to die".
Localization is a lot more in depth at bringing something that is presented to another culture to a culture that is yours. It makes things more coherent, or at least that is the main aim.
I know this will be unpopular, but I'll say it again. Maybe, just maybe, the Japanese script isn't super exciting or engaging and the english localization actually gives it more character and substance. You can dig around and look up the Midgardsormr section for this. I did. I vastly prefer the english localization to the Japanese one. In my opinion there's a far more developed feel of character, depth, austerity, and so on for how the team approached the dragonspeak. They actually gave it a ton of thought and I think they put forth something superior to the original script they were given. More obtuse, sure, but I think it fits with the scene and characters. To each their own, I suppose. I just don't hold Japanese script as perfection.
irfaanator
Banned
bodied Ari. that 10-0 matchup
PhillipCostigan
Member
Not true. This is what you get when poor translation is done. You can take the literal meaning of the sentence and make sure it makes sense in English. That still falls under the umbrella of translation. The examples posted above are examples of poor translation, not of direct translation itself.
Localisation refers more to the cultural adaptation of a text. You can have perfectly translated text that uses perfect English but might be a bit stale and contain references that are meaningless in the language it's translated to.
For context, a hobby of mine is proofreading/copy-editing Japanese -> English manga translations. I don't understand Japanese at all, but I just finished a degree in journalism and was always strong at English. Part of the process is taking the very well translated Japanese -> English text and making it read better in English according to how we as human beings actually speak the language, rather than rigid, but still grammatically correct sentences.
Localization goes beyond that. I remember one chapter I was translating where the author made a joke that took up multiple pages that was based on Japanese grammar. It is literally meaningless in English, impossible to localise. Or something that would take an absurd amount of effort to do so. Therefore you have to give a pretty direct translation and explain it to the reader.
Basically, saying that the above examples you posted are a result of direct translation is a disingenuous statement. It's poor translation. A direct translation of the text will never be one-to-one so one has to adjust anyway. Localisation goes a step beyond that, but direct translation is not necessarily a bad thing. You could go and read some of the chapters I proofread and copy-edited, most of which are direct translations to preserve the original meanings but still use perfect English.
As an aside, I'm not saying I agree with Frumix or even want to step into the localisation argument in regards to FFXIV, I just wanted to point out that the quoted statement is not true, or rather bends the truth to suit his own argument.
For the most part, I agree that the localization team is doing a great job. That doesn't mean they can't do better. They have fucked up at times. If you even have to go back to see what the original script of a scene was, you messed up. They messed with Midgardsormr's scenes. They messed up when Hunts were introduced and the hints given by the Hunter-Scholars were complete mumbo jumbo. They messed up with Lord Haurchefant's character to the point I thought it was a completely different person I was talking to in 2.3.
I don't like the "dragon speak" stuff and plenty of others didn't either. Now, I can see people throughout Heavensward going back to see what may have "really been said" any time a dragon is on screen. =/
They've done a good job but they can get better.
I also think this would be avoided if the "subtitles" were actually subtitles and not "dubtitles" which is so often the case in video games.
We're arguing semantics but that's not what the difference between a translation and localization is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_localisation
For example, writing color instead of colour is localization.
Writing "this guy are sick" is just bad TL.
From what Scher told me, you ended up getting a full group at least. Some pfs aren't that lucky!
Obviously. I would hope people wouldn't assume that when I give the more notorious examples of bad translations that I mean all translations are like that. I know that there's more to translating that literally word for word. You also reiterated my exact points I was making with the rest of your post, so thanks?
People only do this to gripe about things you mentioned after this statement. Or maybe they want to see multiple sides of something. People can be unhappy with it, sure, but for people who are saying or implying (directly or indirectly) that the localization is bad, misleading, or straight up lying are pretty ridiculous.
But yeah, I mean, I don't really want to take away from anyone who doesn't enjoy or finds fault with what is presented. Everyone is allowed to like and dislike whatever. This is just me defending what I think is good, just like other people can criticize what they think is bad.
And Frumix, you're totally right about language localization. Except that's not exactly what we're dealing with. We're talking about game localization, are we not? That's another thing entirely that goes beyond the scope of the written or spoken language.
Therefore, game localization, as in this game in particular, goes way beyond tossing in "colour" and getting rid of keikaku. Therefore it's their duty not only to translate from Japanese to English, but to make sure the product is still coherent all the way through and consistent within itself. It's very important, I think, for an MMO to be as immersive as they can within reason. Yes, this means taking liberties with certain aspects of the presentation, but that's part of their job. It's fine to criticize the job they do, but people also have to realize that sometimes their criticisms just aren't very substantiated.
GAF has a monopoly on ivory towers.
Tell that to Ace Attorney.
There's no one surefire way to do everything. For text about history or cultural events that require the Japanese to be explained, doing a direct translation and explaining would be necessary. For fantasy or fiction, the material can be stretched. Adhering strictly to the original language and intent is not the way to do localization. I think you have to respect both languages equally. If what the Japanese fans find entertaining and deep is the basic sentence, sure. If what the English crowd can resonate is more word rich fanciful language, sure. Japanese puns work for the Japanese audience, English puns work for the English audience. A joke in Japanese that is meaningless in English can be reworked into an English joke for the English audience. That is the mastery of localization.
PhillipCostigan
Member
Not really? Your post was almost entirely about how direct localisation is undesirable and my point was that it's not always the case, and that your examples were examples of poor translation AND your post conveyed nothing of what you say you know about translation in this post.
Again, my point is that your post contained inaccurate statements and was disingenuous, which it totally was.
For what it's worth, I agree with you on a lot of this and I know I said I wouldn't get involved with the FFXIV stuff but it's why I disagree with Frumix' constant ranting about this stuff. Liberties will be taken in localisation. There is always a balance between taking the literal meaning of what you're translating and changing it for the good of the text. Sometimes that balance might be hit or miss, but it's an important aspect of localisation.
I'd encourage people who are interested in this stuff to go listen to the 8-4 play episode with Metal Gear Solid translator Jeremy Blaustein. It was a fantastic insight into this stuff.
Actually, I've even included a link to it for you right... here!
AND AND AND... a bonus round with Alexander O. Smith, former Final Fantasy localisation specialist.
They're both awesome episodes.
I'm not going to go too deep into it, but the joke in question was to do with Raccoons (tanuki) and the Japanese word nuki (to take or leave out). There is no English equivalent because it involves words with no relationship to each other, a visual element that can't be replaced and Japanese grammar. Maybe if I was a paid full time localisation expert I could have figured something out but... yeah.
Mix chapter 23 by Adachi Mitsuru if people are interested.
How long after joining the FC will it take to get one?
PhillipCostigan
Member
depends on how often you run with scy.
he might give you a discount rate on a room in his.
I'm staying out of this whole argument because I spend time dealing with this in another fandom but just want to say thanks for these links. I'll listen to them when I get some time. Always interested in hearing insight about all this stuff.
Well...
The way I see it is that what I quoted from my previous post is the crux of my counter argument. Stance, if you prefer, since I'm not actually arguing anything. You more or less agreed with what I was saying, and it wasn't my intention to imply that direct translation is always 100% bad, because obviously it isn't.
I mentally extrapolated my example of translation as way of that those are the oddities, the engrish, that came with olden days of localization that appeared to be more 1:1. Low budget, maybe? Crunched time? Limitations? I'm not sure. Regardless, we have a higher standard now, and a direct 1:1 translation of a game from Japanese to English wouldn't really fly too well with a mass audience. That's my opinion, of course. I guess to sum that up, I used the examples of bad translation as an example that we should expect more from translations in 2015. That statement could also get me in hot water, so I'll acknowledge that different people want different things out of localized efforts, obviously. Some want something truer to the origin and some want something told from a viewpoint they can more identify with. There is no right or wrong there, but localization is more likely to give someone the latter, in my view.
I really just hate having to clarify every statement I make to insure that it's PC and doesn't step on anyone toes because of the word choices I use. It's exhausting. I rewrote the above paragraph like five times to make sure that people stop misinterpreting what I'm saying. I'm sure I'll still get shit for it, but whatever.
I should also take the time to acknowledge that I am engaging in this discussion with people who know far more about the translation/localization process than I do, so I don't mean to claim that I 100% know everything about everything and everyone else is wrong. These are simply my personal viewpoints, which I'm okay with changing if people point out things that contradict what i previously thought. So there shouldn't be a massive need to get up in arms over what an armchair gaijin has to say about these matters.
Depends on how high your DPS is in WoD. That's the truest test.
irfaanator
Banned
lets get back to the arcsys makes better asses than se talk
Pyros_Eien
Member
Think it's random, but the events are every 30mins at :15 and :45 real time and you can't have the same event twice in a row. Might also be some sort of system where events spawn every X hours, or there's a rotation but haven't seen something about that.
Fungah will only happen at :45- it'll either be that or the dance one.
Was Yoshida involved in early FFXIV around the time Ifrit first appeared as a battle? Because that little red dot was in the sky before then.
I'm always okay talking about butts.
edgefusion
Member
Catboy butts.
Coeurl briefs.
Bohemian boots.
Coeurl briefs.
Bohemian boots.
Wikipedia says Naoki Yoshida took over in December 2010 which was only 3 months after the game launched.
But the red moon has always been there, it's just it didn't become Dalamud until they decided to crash the moon with no survivors.
KrM DeLorean
Member
We get it. We're missing out on so much by not reading/playing the game in Japanese. Just set your client to JP and enjoy.
Why keep making posts about how inferior the localization is? Go rant on the Official Forums, or go after Koji or whomever's job and do better. Otherwise I don't see the point.
If you want to do us commoners a service, Translate all the cutscenes into a "good" localization and post it up on tumblr somewhere.
brb, blaming myself or God that I can't read JP
Why keep making posts about how inferior the localization is? Go rant on the Official Forums, or go after Koji or whomever's job and do better. Otherwise I don't see the point.
If you want to do us commoners a service, Translate all the cutscenes into a "good" localization and post it up on tumblr somewhere.
brb, blaming myself or God that I can't read JP
SE doesn't make asses as all.
Well, Scy?
I hit 250 once
My tower is getting like ... all of the crowded.
I'm not saying it's a bad choice for you to live in a district that matches your personality. Just that newcomers can aim for towers with views! I know there's a GAF ward in Lavender Beds somewhere.
Although the waterfall does seem unwise. Can somebody push him in for science to see what happens to a robot in a waterfall?
I'd go but... Goblet.
An important semantic point that nobody should have to apologize for when making. (If there's one discussion where this kind of nitpickery about word choice is a healthy thing, it's here.)
This 'localize' word seems to have gotten more popular in fields like computer software where making versions in other countries often means 'localizing' phone number formats, postal code formats, paper sizes, and the like. Localizing these things often also means translating into the major languages of those countries, but not always. So it feels like it's creeping into places where 'translation' has always been the correct word.
I'm a professional translator, and insist on that word, because I'm not a localizer: my work can be read and enjoyed by anyone who can read English no matter what their locale may be. Translation is conversion from one language to another; usually the target readers are in different locales, but not always; localization is conversion from one location to another; usually this involves translating into another language, but not always.
Even as a translator, I wouldn't be so bothered by this word so much if it didn't serve as cover for things like regional restrictions and territorial lockouts: I once e-mailed a company somewhere about buying an English-language version of something, and their response was that since I lived in Japan, I had to buy the version that had been 'localized for Japan'. I don't want things that have been localized for my region; I want things that have been translated into a language that I speak!
Now, all of that being said, this game does contain a lot of US/British-specific pop culture references, and that part is closer to localization, but English, French, and German are all spoken in multiple countries and all over the world. The versions of the game in these languages are translations, first and foremost.
And I really do appreciate hearing about the defects in the otherwise-great English version. The Midgardsormr conversation certainly seems weaker in English. It could have been better, sure, but such examples are outnumbered by the huge amount of game text that is unquestionably better in English. I can't overstate just how amazing the English flavor is and how little people are missing if they play only it and not the Japanese "original". Even if Japanese is your first language and English your second, choose English if you only have time to experience the game in one language. Koji Fox's efforts are that good.
I think a big point that continues to be missed in this thread is that the Dragonspeak language is a unique language that Koji Fox developed for the game's lore.
It is not, and should not, be translated from Japanese into English, but from Dragonspeak into Japanese, and Dragonspeak into English. The Japanese script, when it comes to this particular language, is not some holy text from which no alteration should be made.
Going by the criterion that Koji Fox laid out for Dragonspeak -- that it's very simple, carefully chosen words that may rely more on how they're said rather than what exact words are being used -- it leads me to believe that the English localization does far better justice to it than the perhaps unnecessarily literal Japanese "localization".
It is not, and should not, be translated from Japanese into English, but from Dragonspeak into Japanese, and Dragonspeak into English. The Japanese script, when it comes to this particular language, is not some holy text from which no alteration should be made.
Going by the criterion that Koji Fox laid out for Dragonspeak -- that it's very simple, carefully chosen words that may rely more on how they're said rather than what exact words are being used -- it leads me to believe that the English localization does far better justice to it than the perhaps unnecessarily literal Japanese "localization".
the_sun_king
Member
I understand the development of the Dragonspeak language, but still...that one scene in particular involving ol' Midggy had me confused at first because of how it was presented in English. I didn't fully understand what had transpired until I read the translations of the scene from the other languages FFXIV is localized in. And it's a key scene in the story. And I know I was not alone, if the posts on the sub-reddit and the official forums are anything to go by. It's a major misstep in an otherwise pretty good English localization as far as I'm concerned.
I do hope more care is taken regarding Dragonspeak going forwards into Heavensward, and there aren't more situations where many players will have to rely on the other translations to understand just what is going on specifically. This is a story heavy game, and it's a disservice to that story if players can't understand key plot points because of how the English localization chooses to convey key information.
I do hope more care is taken regarding Dragonspeak going forwards into Heavensward, and there aren't more situations where many players will have to rely on the other translations to understand just what is going on specifically. This is a story heavy game, and it's a disservice to that story if players can't understand key plot points because of how the English localization chooses to convey key information.
PhillipCostigan
Member
this is only even remotely relevant if the original lines for Midgardsormer were written in Dragonspeak first, which they were not. People don't speak "Dragonspeak". They were written in a REAL language originally and then made into "Dragonspeak" or whatever. That original language was Japanese/English, therefore the original meaning came from the Japanese/English lines.
Do you even believe half the shit you write? You guys are making it so hard to disagree with Frumix with these ridiculous justifications. I don't even care what Frumix' issues are with the localisation but posts like this annoy me to no end.
Indeed, I cannot wait to hear this. As a language geek I might start playing this on day one not for the dungeons or for the progression but to be one of the first to hear and analyze this.
Aside: Is "Koji Fox" his preferred shortening of his name? I can't imagine that he insists on people saying all four of his names and would love to have a shorter one to refer to him with.
Clearly it was a mistake to bring this up in the thread again. :\
PhillipCostigan
Member
yes it was. I hate this argument but I have this terrible compulsion as a human being to respond to stupid.
Please stop this argument so I can keep my sanity, I'm slowly losing it in an argument I have no actual stake in.
Please stop this argument so I can keep my sanity, I'm slowly losing it in an argument I have no actual stake in.
EndcatOmega
Unconfirmed Member
What are your thoughts on Klingon.
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