Support NeoGAF

[Nelo Ice]

Straight from the horse mouth: Starting strength 3rd edition.

On breathing:
"To implement [the valsava manouver] for pull from the foor, inhale while the bar is on the floor...not while you're supporting a heavy weight at the top.

A set of deadlifts should start at the floor, meaning that each re begnis and ends at the bottom, with the back getting set and a new breath taken between reps while the bar is on the floor. Many people like to pull the first rep off of the floor, breathe at the top of the lockout, and finish the set by bouncing the bar off the floor for the remaining reps... You need to develop your ability to set your back and control your position each time you pull the bar"

So if you are bouncinglifting and deadlifting, you are most likely not setting your back and breathing at the bottom. Stop that. I don't trust any random PT over Rippetoe on these things, and you shouldn't either. Still there is more in SS 3rd edition (the page is 135)

AVOIDING A BOUNCE

"One of the key features of the dealift is that it requires the production of force from a dead stop...[explanation of bounce]...one of the reasons a heavy deadlift is so brutally hard is that it starts out of the bottom without the benefit of the bounce that helps [the squat at the bottom]. If a bounce is incorporated into all the reps of a set of deadlifts except the first one, much of the value of doing them is lost.

The energy expended in [resetting and holding] is a major part of the energy expended during a deadlift... A set of [bounced] deadlifts is just one deadlift and a set of RDL's [Romanian Deadlifts]. Training this way, you will never develop the strength needed to hold the lumbar position for heavy weights, because for 80% of your set you are relying on plate rebound and the elastic energy [stored].

Another problem is [sloppy technique]. It's harded to correct a rounded back when bouncing"

So yeah, don't bounce it really. The Rippetoe goes on those science rants of him that really show that he is just not a meathead:

So yeah don't do it!

Also sphinx, I am glad you got your wrist straps, but I don't recommend using them until your grip is really liting your lifts. Remember that a wrist strap only really works for pulling movements such as the deadlift, farmer walks, RDL's, shrugs, etc. and at your current deadlift weights, they are not needed. In fact, using them might interfere with the development of grip. Everybody is different of course, but I use wrist straps only if I am lifting over 380 pounds, where my grip starts to falter. Grip develops slower than the deadlift adds pounds, so in a way they are there to let you develop your muscles faster than your grip.

Just a heads up

I really need to finish reading SS. I've only read like the whole chapters for squats and OHP which probably explains why I'm most comfortable with those lifts form wise.

 

[andycapps]

Yeah I look at bouncing on deadlifts like kipping on pullups or not going ass to grass on a squat. You're only hurting your own long term development by cheating the movement.

 

[FallingEdge]

To be fair, one does not need to go ass to grass on squats. Parallel is more than fine. It depends on the persons mobility, goals, what they are working on, etc. I myself decided to reset my squats and am starting at 225 lbs doing 4x6 @ 60-75 seconds rest between sets. Really want to focus on my glute activation and am going as deep was I can.

 

[Exis]

You won't be 25% for long if you stick to your current routine! Consistency rules all. Use this place to pull you through those low motivation periods. Good luck!

Thanks! Everyday is a little step closer to success that breaks down to smaller goals, every lift, every time I cardio hell every time I eat becomes a positive because I'm working towards a goal.


I have been thinner and have lifted before, but this go around is most likely the strongest I have ever been.. to think that next year at this time I could be 100 pounds more on my squat if i keep at it is amazing.

oh.. and thanks FitGaf for the Quest bars, I never would have found em without lurking in these threads.

 

[BronzeWolf]

What about with squats? Possibly a silly question but at the bottom of my reps i tend to 'bounce' back up. Is it supposed to be a controlled motion or is that ok? I do go very deep on my squats but i'll admit that if i try and do it slower it's far more difficult.

Yes, during the squat you should aim to "bounce" out of the bottom. Rippetoe goes on excrutiating detail about this in SS but the gist off it is that there is huge difference between how negative-positive (squat, bench press, dips) and positive-negative (deadlift, power clean, Chinups/pullups) movement works. In the first ones, specially the squat, bounce is expected and sometimes encouraged. In the latter, Bounce is discouraged. A straight up Chinups is better than a kipping Chinup for example for developing strength.

The overhead press is a special case where both techniques work the same and it depends on the lifter.

 

[Cudder]

I started doing ATG squats recently (I would always go parallel before) and I admit I do find them easier. Maybe it's the "bounce". In Rippetoe's videos he even encourages the bounce, you can hear him say it.

Posted this at the end of the last thread but got no replies. Thoughts?

 

[Noema]

To be fair, one does not need to go ass to grass on squats. Parallel is more than fine. It depends on the persons mobility, goals, what they are working on, etc. I myself decided to reset my squats and am starting at 225 lbs doing 4x6 @ 60-75 seconds rest between sets. Really want to focus on my glute activation and am going as deep was I can.

It also depends on the type of squat. On low bar squats just a hair below parallel is fine, since going ass to grass will not only kill hip drive, but will potentially end up in a curved lower back since the knees have traveled forward enough to pull the hips in, resulting in lumbar flexion. ATG should be reserved for Front and High Bar Squats.

But yeah, if you are not a the very least hitting parallel (ie, the femurs are parallel to the ground), it doesn't count.

Yes, during the squat you should aim to "bounce" out of the bottom. Rippetoe goes on excrutiating detail about this in SS but the gist off it is that there is huge difference between how negative-positive (squat, bench press, dips) and positive-negative (deadlift, power clean, Chinups/pullups) movement works. In the first ones, specially the squat, bounce is expected and sometimes encouraged. In the latter, Bounce is discouraged. A straight up Chinups is better than a kipping Chinup for example for developing strength.

The overhead press is a special case where both techniques work the same and it depends on the lifter.

Well, we'd need to be clear about what Rippetoe is talking about when he's talking about the bounce. The "good bounce" is the stretch reflex, which is the product of releasing the kinetic energy stored in the viscoelastic tissue of muscle fibers and tendons during the eccentric phase of the movement. It works basically like spring, or a rubber band, and the longer the trip (during the eccentric) the tenser the tissue will be and the more energy will be stored to be released on the concentric. This is why Rippetoe advocates the low bar squat, because the angle of the hip ensures that, below parallel, the hamstrings will be at their most tense and that's where the bounce comes into play: you literally bounce off your hamstrings. If you go to low on this type of squat, the hamstrings will slacken and there'll be no way of using the stretch reflex to bounce out.

So in that that sense, any type of bounce that happens as a result of the release of this stored energy during the eccentric will be acceptable, even in stuff like chinups, because there will be stored energy in the triceps, the delts and even the pecs at the bottom. From SS:

"For a high-rep (Chin-up) set, you can use a stretch reflex at the bottom as long as the bottom is actually The Bottom."

Rippetoe, Mark (2012-01-13 00:00:00+11:00). Starting Strength (Kindle Locations 6718-6719). The Aasgaard Company. Kindle Edition.

What is NOT acceptable is kipping, but kipping is very different from using the stretch reflex out of the bottom. Kipping is basically using forward momentum, like a pendulum, to swing up and down. That's cheating, and it leads only to shoulder injuries, not to the development of strength. Crossfitters kip their pull-ups so they can brag they can do a ton of them for time, but since we take strength training seriously, we don't kip. We do bounce out of the bottom though.

The deadlift, due to its particular nature (it starts with the concentric and ends with the eccentric) has no stretch reflex whatsoever. That's the key difference between conventional deadlifts and Romanian Deadlifts. Since Romanian deadlifts do start from the top, there's a stretch reflex from the hamstrings (if done correctly) at the bottom to bounce up again. In fact that is the reason we do RDLs. But in conventional deadlift, there's no stretch reflex because there's no eccentric; the lift is basically over at the top.

Bouncing the plates off the ground is a completely different type of bounce that doesn't involve the stretch reflex whatsoever. Like kipping, is mostly a form of cheating. That's the "bad bounce".

In the bench press, we WANT to use the stretch reflex to bounce of the lats and the biceps which accumulate viscoelastic energy during the eccentric. We don't want to bounce the bar off the ribcage, which would be another example of the "bad" bounce.

 

[BronzeWolf]

I heard that the guy is attacking strawmen... I don't remember the details but Rippetoe does not encourage the backwards leaning the dude does in the video. Also, its a matter of personal development once you get past the 350lb squat, and eben Rippetoe says so in other videos. Textbook squats will work for 99% of beginners and they should not stray from them, but as the bar gets heavier and the lifter more experienced, slight nuances on the movement can be introduced to take into account the lifters anthropomorphy. In the video I saw, he was coaching this guy on the squat by making him LOOK DOWN instead of at the front. H explained why but I don't remember.

 

[FallingEdge]

It also depends on the type of squat. On low bar squats just a hair below parallel is fine, since going ass to grass will not only kill hip drive, but will potentially end up in a curved lower back since the knees have traveled forward enough to pull the hips in, resulting in lumbar flexion. ATG should be reserved for Front and High Bar Squats.

But yeah, if you are not a the very least hitting parallel (ie, the femurs are parallel to the ground), it doesn't count.

Aren't powerlifters doing low bar cause they can lift more? They go basically ATG.

25lb of muscle is probably impossible, but 25lb of lean body mass is probably doable though. Lean Body mass includes bone and connective tissue, and that also adapts to training.

I've never heard of this. I was always under the impression that LBM = muscle. So you are saying that hypothetically, gaining 25 lbs of LBM is not 25 lbs of muscle but rather a combination of muscle, fibers, tissues, etc?

I really had no idea. Have any reading about this? I am really interested in learning more.

 

[AdventureRacing]

Yes, during the squat you should aim to "bounce" out of the bottom. Rippetoe goes on excrutiating detail about this in SS but the gist off it is that there is huge difference between how negative-positive (squat, bench press, dips) and positive-negative (deadlift, power clean, Chinups/pullups) movement works. In the first ones, specially the squat, bounce is expected and sometimes encouraged. In the latter, Bounce is discouraged. A straight up Chinups is better than a kipping Chinup for example for developing strength.

The overhead press is a special case where both techniques work the same and it depends on the lifter.

Thanks for the reply, that's good to hear. Actually with the OHP i tend to gravitate towards more controlled movements, it's only really my squat where i get the bounce happening.

I started doing ATG squats recently (I would always go parallel before) and I admit I do find them easier. Maybe it's the "bounce". In Rippetoe's videos he even encourages the bounce, you can hear him say it.

Yep this is me, i seem to remember having this discussion in the last thread as well .

 

[andycapps]

To be fair, one does not need to go ass to grass on squats. Parallel is more than fine. It depends on the persons mobility, goals, what they are working on, etc. I myself decided to reset my squats and am starting at 225 lbs doing 4x6 @ 60-75 seconds rest between sets. Really want to focus on my glute activation and am going as deep was I can.

Ass to grass was the wrong term to use, I meant doing squats to parallel vs someone doing 500 lb 1/8 squats just to say they hit 500 lbs.

 

[BronzeWolf]

I've never heard of this. I was always under the impression that LBM muscle. So you are saying that hypothetically, gaining 25 lbs of LBM is not 25 lbs of muscle but rather a combination of muscle, fibers, tissues, etc.

You are correct in your hypothesis. Lifting heavy promotes adaptation of not only muscle, but sinue, skin, bone, etc.

Gone density actually increases to properly handle the stress and as such older people should really lift weights to help prevent osteoporosis (and taking plenty of calcium+vitamin D). Skin expands, tendons become longer and so on and so forth, I wouldn't be worried about this difference since all in all, this is necessary to hold the muscles in place.

A muscle in free-space without something to push to or from is pretty useless.

 

[Noema]

Aren't powerlifters doing low bar cause they can lift more? They go basically ATG.

Power lifters will usually do anything and everything to shorten the ROM as much as possible. It's in their best interest. Going ATG in Powerlifting is very very rare since its not required. In order for a Squat to be green lighted the femurs should be parallel to the floor at the bottom. That's the depth they are shooting for.

ATG= Calves touching hamstrings. Basically non-existent in power lifting.

I've never heard of this. I was always under the impression that LBM = muscle. So you are saying that hypothetically, gaining 25 lbs of LBM is not 25 lbs of muscle but rather a combination of muscle, fibers, tissues, etc?

I really had no idea. Have any reading about this? I am really interested in learning more.

LBM=Your body mass minus fat. That includes most of your organs, connective tissue, sinue, bone, cartilage.

Tendons, ligamens and bone all adapt quite dramatically to strength training.

There's a difference in saying "I gained 25lb of muscle" and "I gained 25lb of lean body mass." For a novice with no training history, gaining a ton of LBM when doing SS for the first time is pretty normal since not only is he gaining some muscle, his bones are getting denser (someone with no sports / training history will have more porous bones), and his tendons and ligaments are growing thicker.

 

[FallingEdge]

You are correct in your hypothesis. Lifting heavy promotes adaptation of not only muscle, but sinue, skin, bone, etc.

Gone density actually increases to properly handle the stress and as such older people should really lift weights to help prevent osteoporosis (and taking plenty of calcium+vitamin D). Skin expands, tendons become longer and so on and so forth, I wouldn't be worried about this difference since all in all, this is necessary to hold the muscles in place.

A muscle in free-space without something to push to or from is pretty useless.

LBM=Your body mass minus fat. That includes most of your organs, connective tissue, sinue, bone, cartilage.

Tendons, ligamens and bone all adapt quite dramatically to strength training.

I never thought about it this way. So it is possible to gain 25 lbs of lean body mass say in 6 months. I always thought this meant 25 lbs of muscle. Makes so much sense now.

Power lifters will usually do anything and everything to shorten the ROM as much as possible. It's in their best interest. Going ATG in Powerlifting is very very rare since its not required. In order for a Squat to be green lighted the femurs should be parallel to the floor at the bottom. That's the depth they are shooting for.

ATG= Calves touching hamstrings. Basically non-existent in power lifting.

Ah okay then. So if I want to focus more on ATG and glute activation, should I switch to high bar?

 

[Noema]

I never thought about it this way. So it is possible to gain 25 lbs of lean body mass say in 6 months. I always thought this meant 25 lbs of muscle. Makes so much sense now.

In 6 months? I don't know.

It'd be possible in theory for a complete novice who had been untrained and had a ton of room to grow and did everything right during his first year of training. Probably, maybe.

For everyone else? Only if they were juiced to the gills.

Ah okay then. So if I want to focus more on ATG and glute activation, should I switch to high bar?

Both the front squat and high bar squats have much more quad and glute activation than low bar since the role of the hamstrings is diminished so the glutes have to pick up the slack to extend the hips.

 

[FallingEdge]

In 6 months? I don't know.

It'd be possible in theory for a complete novice who had been untrained and had a ton of room to grow and did everything right during his first year of training. Probably, maybe.

For everyone else? Only if they were juiced to the gills.




Both the front squat and high bar squats have much more quad and glute activation than low bar since the role of the hamstrings is diminished so the glutes have to pick up the slack to extend the hips.

Sorry, I should have said "hypothetically". My point being that 25 lbs of lbm is not the same as 25 lbs of muscle.

And awesome. Thanks for that. I think I will still stick to low bar for focus on posterior chain so I can increase my deadlift. Maybe do some hip thrusts or a glute focused exercise. Need that booty.

edit: rereading about the differences, I might just try high bar for the rest of the year.

 

[Captain Knutsman]

Dat title - Am I the only one reading "Fitness |OT6|" with a very manly voice, and then "Defying gravity" in the style of the song?

 

[Eidan]

I popped my Quest cherry last night (PB chocolate). I nuked it and everything. It was pretty okay! I think they'll be helpful for killing late-night cravings.

Where can I find one in the wild?

 

[Petrie]

I popped my Quest cherry last night (PB chocolate). I nuked it and everything. It was pretty okay! I think they'll be helpful for killing late-night cravings.

Now try a less shitty flavor.

PB Chocolate is basically the worst one.

 

[Cooter]

Thanks! Everyday is a little step closer to success that breaks down to smaller goals, every lift, every time I cardio hell every time I eat becomes a positive because I'm working towards a goal.


I have been thinner and have lifted before, but this go around is most likely the strongest I have ever been.. to think that next year at this time I could be 100 pounds more on my squat if i keep at it is amazing.

oh.. and thanks FitGaf for the Quest bars, I never would have found em without lurking in these threads.

I can tell you've got what it takes to make it. All your lifts will go up but I think your DL in particular will see huge gains. Same with your bench, that will skyrocket! Hope to see you around here regularly.

 

[y2dvd]

Should doing the overhead press put a little strain on my back at all?

 

[despire]

Should doing the overhead press put a little strain on my back at all?

Which part of your back? There are upper back muscles involved in the lift.

Edit:
And of course lower back acts as a support with the abs but it shouldn't really strain it. If you lean back too much you can feel it in your lower back.

 

[kharma45]

I started taking it for my knees, but I mainly think of it as a universal joint lubricant (which is good since I have an inflamed/damaged SI joint). I like to think it helps, but I keep taking it because I get it for free.

Thanks.

 

[BronzeWolf]

Thanks for the clarification Noema!

Speaking of kipping pullups:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0MuVsFKmrE

 

[Doodis]

Nothing to see here. Just subscribing. Carry on.

 

[Stellactic]

I wish the quest Apple Pie had just a little more taste of apple. It's there and great but just not enough.

 

[SpaceBridge]

Omg, guys, I just finished my first squats. Started with just the bar, ended my last set at 40 lbs. so good. What have I been missing?

 

[BronzeWolf]

Omg, guys, I just finished my first squats. Started with just the bar, ended my last set at 40 lbs. so good. What have I been missing?

40lbs as in the bar plus two 10lb plates at each side?

That would be 85lb, do count the bar also. That's a good starting point in SS! Great job!

 

[SpaceBridge]

40lbs as in the bar plus two 10lb plates at each side?

That would be 85lb, do count the bar also. That's a good starting point in SS! Great job!

No as in the bar and four 10 lbs plates, 2 on each side.

 

[BronzeWolf]

No as in the bar and four 10 lbs plates, 2 on each side.

LOL that's what I said, 2x10 at each side would be four plates (two sides). Anyways, great workout!

 

[SpaceBridge]

LOL that's what I said, 2x10 at each side would be four plates (two sides). Anyways, great workout!

So wait? I actually did 85lbs? Omg I'm bursting.

I users the assisted rack, the bar is sorta on a track. I'll wait a month or do before using the free rack. Is that ok?

 

[velociraptor]

oh nice new thrad

 

[SeanR1221]

So wait? I actually did 85lbs? Omg I'm bursting.

I users the assisted rack, the bar is sorta on a track. I'll wait a month or do before using the free rack. Is that ok?

Uh oh.

Stop that immediately. You used the smith. Use the barbell man. You can't squat in a smith.

 

[SpaceBridge]

Uh oh.

Stop that immediately. You used the smith. Use the barbell man. You can't squat in a smith.

Wait what? Ugh.

 

[BronzeWolf]

So wait? I actually did 85lbs? Omg I'm bursting.

I users the assisted rack, the bar is sorta on a track. I'll wait a month or do before using the free rack. Is that ok?

That's a smith machine and it's useless for squatting!

Sorry but those don't count, use the free barbell on the rack. Don't worry about the weight, do it with the barbell alone

 

[SeanR1221]

Don't sweat it dude. It's an honest mistake.

Smith machine greatly restricts your range of motion so you want to stick to the barbell.

 

[velociraptor]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRKLLqZXfVs

Is overtraining a myth?

I used to do pushups, pullups, dips throughout the day and on off days.

It seems like I am seeing better gains now I've stopped doing random BW exercises throughout the day.

 

[thomaser]

"That's right, pullup bar! How many should daddy do?"

"TWO!" (It's the only number he knows hehe)

So I go and bang out two pullups. Then I have to do TWO again. Then another TWO. This repeats quite a few times until he realizes the jumping up is funny, so now I have to do about 20 vertical leaps before he finally notices the swings and I get a break.

I love this, sounds like great fun! You basically have a merciless trainer who laughs seeing you struggle.

 

[BronzeWolf]

Squiddy, there are some great quotes that I am finding that could help people get inspired in the OT if you agree. This one is specially great:

"No citizen has a right to be an amateur in the matter of physical training... what a disfrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable" Socrates

 

[andycapps]

So wait? I actually did 85lbs? Omg I'm bursting.

I users the assisted rack, the bar is sorta on a track. I'll wait a month or do before using the free rack. Is that ok?

Don't sweat it dude. It's an honest mistake.

Smith machine greatly restricts your range of motion so you want to stick to the barbell.

What he said, the Smith machine just makes it easier on you so your body isn't having to maintain your center of gravity in keeping the bar in a straight vertical path while not falling on your ass or on your face. That work you're doing to keep the bar in a straight vertical path and not fall is what makes the squat so valuable.

So yeah, ditch the Smith machine next time. But still, good to hear you got acquainted with the movement. Keep it up and focus on form in the beginning. May want to just stick with bar for the first workout.

 

[Petrie]

Wait what? Ugh.

Do the exact lifts listed the way they are described. Follow the videos. Read Starting Strength. Buy yourself a copy. Great investment.

 

[andycapps]

I know this has come up before, so maybe it would be a good idea to have a sample routine added to the OP.. But I'm going on vacation next week and want to do some hotel room type workouts so that I can at least be doing something. It's at a condo, and I doubt there will even be a fitness room there.

Looking for some things I can do while I'm away from home so I can stay on my weekly exercise grind. Doing 5/3/1 on M-T-TH-F now.

 

[despire]

Do the exact lifts listed the way they are described. Follow the videos. Read Starting Strength. Buy yourself a copy. Great investment.

And the ebook is only 10$ (this should be in the OP).

 

[Chittagong]

Could we put the three most common rookie mistakes to the OP?

Bench - Bar has to touch chest each rep or you are doing it wrong
Deadlift - Weight has to rest on ground between each rep or you are doing it wrong
Squat - Thigh has to go to parallel or below or you are doing it wrong

These are covered in the readings and videos but might be worth to just call them out.

 

[deadbeef]

I know this has come up before, so maybe it would be a good idea to have a sample routine added to the OP.. But I'm going on vacation next week and want to do some hotel room type workouts so that I can at least be doing something. It's at a condo, and I doubt there will even be a fitness room there.

Looking for some things I can do while I'm away from home so I can stay on my weekly exercise grind. Doing 5/3/1 on M-T-TH-F now.

I typically just try and get a pump by doing some body weight stuff for volume. Do you have any bands? You can do a lot with those and they are easy to pack.

 

[Cooter]

Could we put the three most common rookie mistakes to the OP?

Bench - Bar has to touch chest each rep or you are doing it wrong
Deadlift - Weight has to rest on ground between each rep or you are doing it wrong
Squat - Thigh has to go to parallel or below or you are doing it wrongg

These are covered in the readings and videos but might be worth to just call them out.

Prepare for the onslaught of people telling you it's not necessary for the bar to touch your chest when benching.

 

[Chittagong]

Prepare for the onslaught of people telling you it's not necessary for the bar to touch your chest when benching.

!

One day I will get through the entire 300 page brick...

 

[NinjaJesus311]

So, in general I have good shoulder mobility, I do military presses easily, do rear delt work, and even shoulder dislocations, yet when I try dumbbell pullovers it kills my shoulder. Tried using lighter weight but then it feels like I'm not doing anything. Any tips?

 

[Van Owen]

Prepare for the onslaught of people telling you it's not necessary for the bar to touch your chest when benching.

It's not.

 

[abuC]

Prepare for the onslaught of people telling you it's not necessary for the bar to touch your chest when benching.

I have to stop a few inches from my chest, my right shoulder pops if I don't.