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[Garrett Hawke]

What kind of iconic thread!?

I frequently think some of your points mentioned in this but I am terrible at expressing my views. This is really well done, great job.

 

[Thatonemoor]

Triforce:
Link: He
Zelda: She
Ganon: It

You know Ganondorf is a male Gerudo right?

 

[purdobol]

Don't mind people discussing it. Trying to have more diversity in games is a good cause in general. The more the better.

As long as devs still can produce games with boobies and typical macho man (white,asian,black i don't care as long as he's buffed and shirtless) without being frowned upon.

This industry is big enough to have room for everything.
Good work OP it was great read. Used couple of those arguments myself heheh.

 

[Lord of Ostia]

Great thread OP, you've done a fantastic job of pointing out the common logical fallacies and poor arguments people use to undermine social critique of games. Everyone should remember that criticism is not censorship, and critiquing something is simply expressing one'side point of view on a work. That is the bedrock of all discussion on media, art, culture, and has to be restated given how often it is undermined.

 

[pashmilla]

Oh actually, OP, there is one... calling it an argument is probably giving it too much credit, but "response" to these issues that you missed. I talked about it briefly, and it's to do specifically with issues of the sexual objectification of female characters: the "hurr hurr who cares I like boobs" response. There's so much of it in the Kojima thread.

I love Kojima he's so silly.

I wish people would stop making so much fuss. Sometimes sexy just needs to be sexy.

What do people have against sexy characters in videogames? It's super wierd.

My man Kojima likes boobs and so do I. Don't like? Don't buy ¯\_(&#12484_/¯

Stay classy, I guess. This one is probably the worst because there's no real rational argument to make. Like, you don't have to stop liking boobs, just recognise that you like something problematic at least.

 

[Llyrwenne]

Tbh the whole controversy about that Aonuma quote has always been really, really reaching. The FFXV one is completely different.

Triforce:
Link: He
Zelda: She
Ganon: It

Aonuma's statements were criticized because he used an arbitrary element of the in-game lore ( something he probably has full creative control over and something that inherently changes and grows with every new released Zelda game ) to argue that something is not possible. This felt disingenuous to many ( since it is really not that hard to think up any number of fitting lore / story reasons to enable a female protagonist ), hence the discussion around it. It wasn't so much about wanting a female Link, it was pointing out that Aonuma's reasoning for not doing it did not make much sense. See also Jim Sterling's What Would Link Do?. If he had just straight up said 'We designed Link as a male character and we do not intend to change this in the near future.' instead of trying to justify it with lore, there would've probably been much less 'controversy'.

I agree with most of this. I feel like a lot of it has to do with how criticism is interpreted by some as a "forced" call to action (even though nobody is being forced) via an interpretation that certain criticism styles are designed to be a public shaming of sorts. In America in particular, a lot of issues revolving around race, gender identity, and diversity are highly contested political issues, so even when bringing it up in gaming topics, the arguments because partisan-ized whether the observations being made are objective or not.

This is a point I hadn't really considered yet. It does seem like that could be part of it indeed.

 

[daxgame]

Legend of Zelda is whatever the fuck they want to make.
When you thnk myth and legend do you think train?
Too bad
.
If they decide that they want to make Link female to spice things up a bit,
it won't be as egregious as fucking rail tracks all over Hyrule.

... really? Are we comparing a fucking train to the core of the game?
If you say so man, I'll stop here.

My point still stands. I feel this is one of those cases where it's forced for no reason.
Do we need a Metroid game with a male protagonist for a change? I don't get it. There's plenty of other Nintendo games with female leads but since it's not into that one...

If Nintendo wants in a Zelda game I'm absolutely fine, don't get me wrong. I'll play it in a heartbeat just like any other. But I'm having a hard time "complaining" because they just want to use the same baseline - because that's what Aonuma is saying.

I think the main issue honestly is the negative way several female characters are often portrayed in games or the hurdles some publishers went through to have their games with female leads accepted.

 

[Mael]

It's so weird to think that Link can't be female when the character is a "Link" between the player and the game world to begin with, it's even in his fucking name!
Surely we have women playing Zelda games too, right?

 

[Crossing Eden]

Don't mind people discussing it. Trying to have more diversity in games is a good cause in general. The more the better.

As long as devs still can produce games with boobies and typical macho man (white,asian,black i don't care as long as he's buffed and shirtless) without being frowned upon.

This industry is big enough to have room for everything.
Good work OP it was great read. Used couple of those arguments myself heheh.

The industry has 100s examples of the bolded but quite few of actual good representations of women and minorities, it's time for devs to be more creative when creating characters. And while we're seeing improvements, that improvement is completely offset by a character like Quiet or Cindy getting huge focuses and attention in big budget games compared to say how little Elena was in the marketing of UC4.

It's so weird to think that Link can't be female when the character is a "Link" between the player and the game world to begin with, it's even in his fucking name!
Surely we have women playing Zelda games too, right?

Zelda has a pretty sizable female fanbase, here's the thing, often times whatever Link is doing literally has nothing to do with his gender, and this, giving him a female alternate model, (he's a silent protagonist after all), wouldn't be a huge effort at all especially with SO many RPGs with blank slate characters already doing so.

 

[John Kowalski]

You know Ganondorf is a male Gerudo right?

Isn't it like Ganon is the spirit and Ganondorf is the human?

 

[El Topo]

There's plenty of other Nintendo games with female leads but since it's not into that one...

How many Nintendo games with exclusively female leads are there, actually? How is the situation in general when it comes to gender and Nintendo games? What if you exclude 3rd party games like Bayonetta? Would we even be having this discussion if e.g. Metroid wasn't comatose?

(It's not an actual question, more like something to keep in mind regarding this discussion.)

 

[Sakujou]

we are pretty much creating problems.

we search for problems which never were existing. the golden age of gaming is long over, when games were just created to be games and nothing else.

not everything is political, racist, or patriarchal, which makes my head boggle.
How come that games which were released in the 90s were done in a better way?


i remember the discussion about ff13 when people even on GAF tried to convince that black people should stay out of a FF game.(ff7 had a black character too and was released 1997)

cant we take that political stick out of the games ass?
dont make games into something they never were.

i like the female who are sometimes too sexy, and sometimes who look like a nun, i like the dude-bro-characters as well as the weeaboo-characters.

for a change, let there be LGBT characters or black/yellow/whatever characters without fearing that "sales" will drop or whatever.

i play the game, when it is good. if it has something, which has never been before, its even better.

 

[Mael]

... really? Are we comparing a fucking train to the core of the game?
If you say so man, I'll stop here.

Have you played Spirit tracks?
It's THE CORE of the game, it's everywhere in every layer of the game.

My point still stands. I feel this is one of those cases where it's forced for no reason.
Do we need a Metroid game with a male protagonist for a change? I don't get it. There's plenty of other Nintendo games with female leads but since it's not into that one...

If Nintendo wants in a Zelda game I'm absolutely fine, don't get me wrong. I'll play it in a heartbeat just like any other. But I'm having a hard time "complaining" because they just want to use the same baseline - because that's what Aonuma is saying.

I think the main issue honestly is the negative way several female characters are often portrayed in games or the hurdles some publishers went through to have their games with female leads accepted.

I'm gonna play the games anyway but let's not cloud ourselves into accepting BS when there's really no reason to.

 

[MikeBreezy92]

This is a really good topic, but I don't think these arguments are ever going to stop coming up even if people link to topics or posts like this in response to them. The only thing I can think to stop them is to ban people for it (which IMO is too harsh in a lot of cases, there's a difference between unknowingly making a flawed argument and making them deliberately in order to divert attention away from a serious issue). The problem is that they seem to be even more popular elsewhere on the internet except for spaces that are more specific to diversity and representation, so people will keep reading them elsewhere and then spouting them on here. So idk what we're going to do. This is a really good response to all of them though and I agree.

The idea is to force these mentalities and thoughts to a point of suffocation and never letting up. The more places that do this the less we have to deal with it.

 

[LotusHD]

In regards to female link, i know there were tons more people who wanted a competent Zelda as main character or a 'role reversal', than to outright just make Link a woman.

Either is appealing to me, but for some, they prefer having a female Link because they still want to be able to use stuff like the Master Sword and not, rather than having the gameplay likely change dramatically if they were to play as Zelda instead.

 

[Lord of Ostia]

Oh actually, OP, there is one... calling it an argument is probably giving it too much credit, but "response" to these issues that you missed. I talked about it briefly, and it's to do specifically with issues of the sexual objectification of female characters: the "hurr hurr who cares I like boobs" response. There's so much of it in the Kojima thread.







Stay classy, I guess. This one is probably the worst because there's no real rational argument to make. Like, you don't have to stop liking boobs, just recognise that you like something problematic at least.

I mean, that is their opinion. They aren't really contributing to the discussion, and they are ignoring the larger ramifications of having sexually objectified characters. However, they are probably the exact audience the character was designed for, as sexually objectified characters are made expressly to appeal to that group. Basically, the designer's intent is working on them. I think that's why it's better to blame or criticise the designer in that case.

 

[Canucked]

First of all, excellent work.

And to expand on the artistic freedom with something I encounter lots with games, comics and media, is the "pandering" argument. That diversity is somehow pandering.

The games industry has been "pandering" since inception and pandering is nothing more than knowing your audience. Adding diversity is no more pandering than adding a bald space marine in order to get the same old audience you've always had.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Oh actually, OP, there is one... calling it an argument is probably giving it too much credit, but "response" to these issues that you missed. I talked about it briefly, and it's to do specifically with issues of the sexual objectification of female characters: the "hurr hurr who cares I like boobs" response. There's so much of it in the Kojima thread.

Stay classy, I guess. This one is probably the worst because there's no real rational argument to make. Like, you don't have to stop liking boobs, just recognise that you like something problematic at least.

I agree. I like sexy designs in games just fine, as par the course for Japanese games and such(of course there is a limit...), but i do understand that it does detract from female representation and how females view their gaming media as something they also take part in and want to feel inclusive through.

For that reason i try to champion a full on balance between male oriented content versus diverse content in regards to fanservice, so everyone can have stuff they like.

The issue in the industry right now IMO is that we don't really have that, so most stuff is pretty over the top because males dominate the industry as content creators thus leaving only a minority of games to tackle female empowerment or games featuring different colored perspectives or LGBTQ rights in a good way.

 

[jetjevons]

Great post OP.

 

[QaaQer]

It would have helped if you actually quoted the arguments you are refuting instead of just giving your interpretation of them. Too many times on gaf people argue against things nobody said.

 

[Auctopus]

Amazing OP, OP.

 

[purdobol]

The industry has 100s examples of the bolded but quite few of actual good representations of women and minorities, it's time for devs to be more creative when creating characters.

Change takes time. Gaming was geared for teenage boy nerd crowd for a long time. It wasn't mainstream or cool.

If there's demand there will be supply.

 

[Anton Sugar]

Hot damn, this is an amazing thread.

 

[pashmilla]

I saw a tumblr post (yeah I know) that took down the pandering argument well. It was like... black/disabled/trans/gay people exist in real life. You probably see them every day. So why is their inclusion in the media you consume this apocalyptic disaster of political correctness? It's a reflection of reality. I can't remember the exact wording (it was a lot more sarcastic) but you get the point. It's such a dumb argument, honestly.

 

[gcncontroller]

Incredible post OP! It's a real shame that this stuff has to be explained over and over but hopefully we can make use of your excellent explainations to help educate those who are willing to listen and learn.

Here's hoping Horizon is a success and fantastic game by its own merit so we can really ascertain the difference in sales between male and female lead characters (which in a perfect world would be zero, as with POC mains).

 

[Lord of Ostia]

I agree. I like sexy designs in games just fine, as par the course for Japanese games and such(of course there is a limit...), but i do understand that it does detract from female representation and how females view their gaming media as something they also take part in and want to feel inclusive through.

For that reason i try to champion a full on balance between male oriented content versus diverse content in regards to fanservice, so everyone can have stuff they like.

The issue in the industry right now IMO is that we don't really have that, so most stuff is pretty over the top because males dominate the industry as content creators thus leaving only a minority of games to tackle female empowerment or games featuring different colored perspectives or LGBTQ rights in a good way.

The problem with this approach is that it doesn't actually fix the problem. Having objectifying fanservice for both genders just means you have the same issues applied twice. If you like sexy designs that's fine, but don't shut down people who don't like them (to be clear I'mean not suggesting you would).

It's also worse when the sexual objectification takes place in a game that otherwise attempts to be serious. It makes it seem like they are trying to normalize the rampant serialization of female characters. Something like Senran kagura is different, in that the whole point of the game is fan service, it's not meant to be taken seriously or as anything else other than fan service, and it's for a niche audience who wants that and is safely ignored by anyone who doesnt.

 

[Kwame120]

I mean yeah, I do get what the OP's trying to say about double standards.

On the other hand, would you say that a writer whose worldview is limited to 'gay people are flamboyant, feminine and wear pink and sashay around' and doesn't really have any experience with actual gay people should just avoid writing that character? I mean, obviously ideally you'd want to educate them and they'd be a better writer that understands more of the world around them, but this isn't always possible.

Research is always necessary in that case. In the literary world, you've got authors writing about fantasy worlds with impossible geography, featuring novel systems of magic and convincing forms of fantasy racism. That's all in the mind, before being able to actually research historical stuff, or exotic cultures - exotic defining great distance to your own, thus English culture may be exotic to someone Chinese, living in China. Video game writers should be able to do research for cultures and movements they're unfamiliar with. I'm sure anecdotally that many do.

Even if no research is done, a character can be written as usual, just with the difference in sexuality. (Or any kind of diversity, context and the importance of research pending.) The biggest difference between someone gay and someone straight, it that the first prefers the same gender, and the other prefers the opposite. Other factors, such as social stigma, may need to be researched by someone unfamiliar with them, but even without that you can write a decent non-straight character, just the same way that you don't need to research left-handedness discrimination to write a left handed character.

 

[TissueBox]

What a superbly thorough and decorated OP, well done.

My opinions on these topics can pose as controversial, though, as I don't agree with every argument for it and have complicated feelings towards others. I believe reasoning and rationale is just as important as the final virtue one is arguing for. If you are going to debate, then your opinion is easier to respect if you don't sound like an idiot. But that should be judged on beyond more than just your position, and your actual ability to defend that position. Imo this should apply to both/every side one elects to take on an argument.

For example, a thread like this, succinctly and comprehensively pointing out the other side's issues and discrepancies; a good example of an intelligently facilitated discussing point. ^^'

 

[ponpo]

Who has ever used the term "Diversitypocalypse"?

 

[Llyrwenne]

It would have helped if you actually quoted the arguments you are refuting instead of just giving your interpretation of them. Too many times on gaf people argue against things nobody said.

I did put in links to several threads in the OP where these types of arguments were being made. I just feel it is not productive to directly quote members in the OP, as it could lead to users piling onto that poster and that is not the point of this thread.

 

[Lord of Ostia]

It would have helped if you actually quoted the arguments you are refuting instead of just giving your interpretation of them. Too many times on gaf people argue against things nobody said.

I've personally seen those arguments the OP brought up numerous times on GAF. Go into any thread about social issues and games, you will find at least one of them on display

 

[pashmilla]

Who has ever used the term "Diversitypocalypse"?

g e n d e r l e s s d y s t o p i a

 

[Johndoey]

Thank you for the fantastic OP. You tackled most of the lazy arguments people make in a even handed way. Definitely going to be linking to this pretty often.

 

[Zakalwe]

I'd love to see a female Link and Male Zelda. They could write it in as a different timeline/reality as they do with other Zelda titles, and it would go a long way to helping push for diversity.

I know many will say "but why not make a new character and leave our Link alone!", but much like Resident Evil 7 being first person doesn't mean every new RE needs to be, if we made the Zelda switch it wouldn't mean all future games need to be the same and we've had plenty of male links, one less wouldn't hurt us.

This is just a hyperthetical want, I'm not suggesting it needs to happen absolutely. It's difficult to launch a new character whatever their sexuality or gender, a gesture like this from an established license would be incredible.

-

Anyway, great OP. Hits the reality nail square! Subbed for future refrernence.

 

[Playsage]

I saw a tumblr post (yeah I know) that took down the pandering argument well. It was like... black/disabled/trans/gay people exist in real life. You probably see them every day. So why is their inclusion in the media you consume this apocalyptic disaster of political correctness? It's a reflection of reality. I can't remember the exact wording (it was a lot more sarcastic) but you get the point. It's such a dumb argument, honestly.

About that... What would be wrong about pandering to a certain demographic as long as there is no offensive content in the product consumed?

 

[pashmilla]

About that... What would be wrong about pandering to a certain demographic as long as there is no offensive content in the product consumed?

Nothing, really. Every group has products targeted specifically at them, that's the reality of fiction, it's perfectly normal. But it's this idea that diversity in games ONLY exists to "pander" to the "feels" of sensitive SJWs or something, not because, you know, gay/trans/black/disabled/female people exist in real life and are as deserving of representation of the Straight White Man.

 

[luulubuu]

Amazing thread OP!

One of the best in here

I have a question for you dear gaf buddies about something about my integrity and my hobbies; I love some "problematic" stuff like the well known Senran Kagura, Dead or Alive, Vanillaware games and such things.

For one side, I don't want to be part of the problem as being part of the fanbase of something that sexualizes women, for other side I also think that If I have that open mindset and work for a better media... That counts as being not bad?

I had this struggle for years now and I want some perspective

 

[CronoShot]

It's so weird to think that Link can't be female when the character is a "Link" between the player and the game world to begin with, it's even in his fucking name!
Surely we have women playing Zelda games too, right?

Link was named back when the original LoZ was going to have different time periods, and Link was the "link" to each period. It had nothing to do with being a link to the player.

 

[Inuhanyou]

The problem with this approach is that it doesn't actually fix the problem. Having objectifying fanservice for both genders just means you have the same issues applied twice. If you like sexy designs that's fine, but don't shut down people who don't like them (to be clear I'mean not suggesting you would).

It's also worse when the sexual objectification takes place in a game that otherwise attempts to be serious. It makes it seem like they are trying to normalize the rampant serialization of female characters. Something like Senran kagura is different, in that the whole point of the game is fan service, it's not meant to be taken seriously or as anything else other than fan service, and it's for a niche audience who wants that and is safely ignored by anyone who doesnt.

I don't really mean female fanservice as opposed to male fanservice. i mean having a balance between male/female fanservice and played straight content with no fanservice.

As you say, can hurt the work in question when fanservice is applied to games intending to be serious as it takes away from the core content, but at the same time, i don't think scrubbing all games with questionable clothing content away makes much sense either.

"Leave the porn to the porn games" takes away from games like DOA, a franchise born of both fanservice and core fighting mechanics.

Instead of saying those games should be scrubbed, i feel like there should be more games without that element present so we can have a much more inclusive balance in content.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Amazing thread OP!

One of the best in here

I have a question for you dear gaf buddies about something about my integrity and my hobbies; I love some "problematic" stuff like the well known Senran Kagura, Dead or Alive, Vanillaware games and such things.

For one side, I don't want to be part of the problem as being part of the fanbase of something that sexualizes women, for other side I also think that If I have that open mindset and work for a better media... That counts as being not bad?

I had this struggle for years now and I want some perspective

It's fine to like stuff that (as long as the game itself is actually good) and it's entirely possible to do so and still respect women and push for better representation.

 

[Mael]

Link was named back when the original LoZ was going to have different time periods, and Link was the "link" to each period. It had nothing to do with being a link to the player.

Depending on who you ask on the dev team you'll get different answers.
Regardless there's no reason why this specific part of the game cannot be changed.
If we finally got rid of the fucking dungeon formula we can do away with this too.
It's not even the same character in most of the games anyway.
It's barely "Link" anyway, if you look at the marketing and everything you'll see how they usually avoid naming the hero (and also why that's the 1rst thing you in all the games with no preset options).

 

[Enduin]

That is a very vague statement. Could you be a bit more precise? Which assessment do you not agree with? Are you saying there is a cheaper or easier way?

I simply don't agree that Female Link is any easier than a Zelda game in terms of series perception. Development sure it's easier if you're just swapping character models and calling it a day.

But beyond that despite people always bringing up lore about how most Links are actually different characters, so a new Link can be a girl, the general public and most fans of the series don't bother with that stuff and see it that way and neither has Nintendo in handling Link's depiction outside of the games and in other series like MK and SSB. They've even dropped the whole ability to make Link now. They've continually moved with each entry into solidifying Link's image and character as its own, singular, thing.

Zelda is at least a known quantity to most people regardless of their interest in the series lore and particulars. She's always been her own character. It wouldn't introduce much or any confusion to consumers to see the titular character of the series being playable. Unlike Female Link which I think could throw a lot of people for a loop given the depiction of Link for the last 30+ years. If it's a selection that's a different situation and may very well be easier. I'll admit that. But I hate that option, at least initially, more than just a straight up Female Link only.

I'm sure you think differently, which is fine. Not really any way to prove it, which is why I hate these kinds of arguments.

See, this is simply not true. Let us assume someone proposes an option, here giving players the option to play as female Link. If someone argues against it by providing an alternative, said alternative has to be reasonable (and realistic), else it is not an alternative, but a distraction/excuse.



No one is saying that Zelda is not more deserving.

It's not a distraction or excuse. It's not my duty to alter my desires to conform to what is possibly easier for a developer for the sake of diversity overall. Half measures in this case do not interest me at all. Diversity in games is incredibly important, but I'm not at all interested in this type of solution.

And yes a Zelda led game is more likely as they specifically stated that early on in development they had considered a female player character but they instantly ruled out Female Link but did consider Princess Zelda, but eventually ruled that out as well because of the stupid "what would Link do," issue. As well I believe Aonuma also did say many of the team wanted to make a Sheik game. Nintendo seems far more against female Link than playable Zelda, even if either is rather unlikely.

 

[luulubuu]

It's fine to like stuff that (as long as the game itself is actually good) and it's entirely possible to do so and still respect women and push for better representation.

But the better solution to end most sexual tropes against women is to stop buying a problematic product

For example I don't see that stuff hot or anything remotely, is just plain fun and juvenile toilet humor, but it's still sexualized so...

It's awful to talk about this stuff because it's amazing and interesting but also complex, like if Bayonetta is a feminist symbol or an erotic fantasy

But thanks for your quick reply, if you want to discuss this stuff further please PM me

 

[CronoShot]

Depending on who you ask on the dev team you'll get different answers.
Regardless there's no reason why this specific part of the game cannot be changed.
If we finally got rid of the fucking dungeon formula we can do away with this too.
It's not even the same character in most of the games anyway.
It's barely "Link" anyway, if you look at the marketing and everything you'll see how they usually avoid naming the hero (and also why that's the 1rst thing you in all the games with no preset options).

That was from Miyamoto. The director of the game. I don't know who else you would ask to get a more definitive answer.

As for Link, he's slowly becoming more and more of a character and less of an avatar. He can't even be renamed in BotW for the first time in the series, and clearly has a personal history in the game with the whole 100 years ago thing.

 

[igordennis]

because the world's game has been created in a certain way from the beginning. It's about a myth, a legend. The Triforce is what it is. Myths aren't really supposed to change over time

"For once I'd like to play as a female", I mean, no? Otherwise it goes for every game.

Arguing for the status quo to remain because "its been that way for decades" is and will always be one of the worst possible arguments. The world's game was created in a certain way? It was created in an absolutely arbitrary way, and the only reason it doesnt change is not because it "cant" change, it is for, again, arbitrary reasons by the creators.

 

[Lord of Ostia]

I don't really mean female fanservice as opposed to male fanservice. i mean having a balance between male/female fanservice and played straight content with no fanservice.

As you say, can hurt the work in question when fanservice is applied to games intending to be serious as it takes away from the core content, but at the same time, i don't think scrubbing all games with questionable clothing content away makes much sense either.

"Leave the porn to the porn games" takes away from games like DOA, a franchise born of both fanservice and core fighting mechanics.

Instead of saying those games should be scrubbed, i feel like there should be more games without that element present so we can have a much more inclusive balance in content.

I mean, there is no rule that says porn games can't have good game play, there are plenty of porn games that have good game play, or a good narrative outside of the porn, etc. But those games are limited in reach because of the fanservice/porn aspects, and there is nothing wrong with that either. If you like dead or alive because it's a competent fighter and is all about the sexy ladies, that's fine. But don't be upset that people take issue with the extreme focus on the sexy ladies being dressed up in bathing suits and having a spinoff game about beach volleyball. Like what you like, sure, but recognize the flaws of the games you like, and be respectful of dissenting opinions.

 

[Mael]

That was from Miyamoto. The director of the game. I don't know who else you would ask to get a more definitive answer.

Aonuma and Miyamoto didn't even agree on what is Zelda till very recently according to recent interview.
Still doesn't change the fact that there's nothing stopping them from doing that, they've made more dramatical changes over the years anyway.

 

[daxgame]

Aonuma's statements were criticized because he used an arbitrary element of the in-game lore ( something he probably has full creative control over and something that inherently changes and grows with every new released Zelda game ) to argue that something is not possible. This felt disingenuous to many ( since it is really not that hard to think up any number of fitting lore / story reasons to enable a female protagonist ), hence the discussion around it. It wasn't so much about wanting a female Link, it was pointing out that Aonuma's reasoning for not doing it did not make much sense. See also Jim Sterling's What Would Link Do?. If he had just straight up said 'We designed Link as a male character and we do not intend to change this in the near future.' instead of trying to justify it with lore, there would've probably been much less 'controversy'.

Right, I think your post is very good in painting the situation.
At the same time, I felt that Aonuma said exactly what you wrote. Actually, I thought he went a step further because if it has to be a female protagonist, it'd make more sense to be Zelda probably instead of forcing a new female link.
So, even if he answered with your last sentence, then people would have said "it's fine that Link is male but this doesn't explain why you can't put a female protagonist".

It might not be "hard" to think about story reasons to enable a female protagonist but you would still get the "lore problem" about the Triforce, the hero and so on. And the Hero is Link. And if you're not playing as the Hero, then it's not really "The Legend of Zelda" anymore, is it? Hence the "what would Link do".

Dunno, this is just my 5 cents obviously. Maybe still poor wording on his part? Could be. Sparking a controversy? It still baffles me.

How many Nintendo games with exclusively female leads are there, actually? How is the situation in general when it comes to gender and Nintendo games? What if you exclude 3rd party games like Bayonetta? Would we even be having this discussion if e.g. Metroid wasn't comatose?

Well, Another Code is a good game with a female lead. I enjoyed it. You can pick female in, Fire Emblem, Pokémon, Smash Bros, Animal Crossing, Mario Kart, Splatoon, Arms, you also play a part as a female in Captain Toad. Just off the top of my head. And characters like Kirby or Starfy are easy to be identified in by both sexes.

But don't get me wrong, I'd be more than happy to see more exclusively female leads (not sure there's any particular reason as to why it has to be exclusive though, unless it's a story-driven game). Yet, keep in mind that Nintendo platforms\games have a (relatively) high number of female users and I'm fairly sure it wouldn't be the case if they wouldn't be at ease there.

Have you played Spirit tracks?
It's THE CORE of the game, it's everywhere in every layer of the game.


I'm gonna play the games anyway but let's not cloud ourselves into accepting BS when there's really no reason to.

I have played Spirit Tracks, but the Spirit Train is a gameplay tool. It's the gameplay core of that game, it's not the damn core of the Legend of Zelda saga\narrative.

As for Federation Force lmao please.
I was obviously referring to a mainline Metroid but if you want to go down that road sure, you can play Zelda in Hyrule Warriors. Problem solved.

 

[MoonFrog]

I agree. I like sexy designs in games just fine, as par the course for Japanese games and such(of course there is a limit...), but i do understand that it does detract from female representation and how females view their gaming media as something they also take part in and want to feel inclusive through.

For that reason i try to champion a full on balance between male oriented content versus diverse content in regards to fanservice, so everyone can have stuff they like.

The issue in the industry right now IMO is that we don't really have that, so most stuff is pretty over the top because males dominate the industry as content creators thus leaving only a minority of games to tackle female empowerment or games featuring different colored perspectives or LGBTQ rights in a good way.

Sex isn't evil but it is dangerous. Moreover, a lot of what people want to encourage is sexual content, as you are saying. This makes the threads incredibly tangled.

My problem is a) I don't want a game culture completely drenched in fanservice, b) fanservice does lend itself to objectification and fetishization, c) I do not think a completely dry medium is where we want/need to be either, d) it is hard to untangle what I like seeing from what I think is in good taste.

I think what you're saying risks violating a), and by way of that b). It risks the world where everything is just playing to fetish and lust, but in an equal opportunity sort of way. It could be moderated, but that runs into d).

The other way of trying to defuse b) is to risk c). But people who want b), usually also want greater expression of other sexualities, female and LGTBQ and c) is antithetical to that. Many arguments run very prudish and they run contrary to other social justice concerns. Again, some sort of moderation is in order, but that runs into d).

The problem I'm trying to draw out is that many arguments in these threads don't know where they are trying to go and/or the tools they use to get there are overpowered. But something about them still rings true! And that is the knot that needs to be untangled imo.

Edit: Moreover, it is the presence of this argumentative hurdle that a) is often blown over with no humility and b) when it is acknowledged weakens the power of arguments leading to it being that c) there is ample room to bury your head in the sand and resist arguments to the effect that there are issues.

 

[Ordinaryundone]

Amazing thread OP!

One of the best in here

I have a question for you dear gaf buddies about something about my integrity and my hobbies; I love some "problematic" stuff like the well known Senran Kagura, Dead or Alive, Vanillaware games and such things.

For one side, I don't want to be part of the problem as being part of the fanbase of something that sexualizes women, for other side I also think that If I have that open mindset and work for a better media... That counts as being not bad?

I had this struggle for years now and I want some perspective

So long as your not fighting to limit games to just your own particular view of what you like to see then there isn't really a problem. Games like Senran Kagura aren't going anywhere, if you like them that's fine. It's when you make arguements that all games should be like Senran Kagura or that Senran Kagura doesn't have it's own faults that you've gone overboard.