Arya is definitely evil. On a scale of 1-10 with 10 being Ramsay, Arya would be a 8 right now. She killed innocent people before. She butchered someone, made a pie out of it and fed it to an old feeble man.
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Game of Thrones *NO BOOK DISCUSSION* |OT| Season 7 - [Read the OP]
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Arya is definitely evil. On a scale of 1-10 with 10 being Ramsay, Arya would be a 8 right now. She killed innocent people before. She butchered someone, made a pie out of it and fed it to an old feeble man.
The Sparrows were NOT innocent, yes, innocents did die in the process but that doesn't really make someone "evil". How many innocents have died because of the actions of Ned, Rob or Jon? Are they not culpable because they didn't directly kill them? Well, neither did Cersei, she didn't lit the wildfire. Cersei is not a very moral person but to say she is evil because she killed, especially when those she killed were The Sparrows and others in The Game, doesn't make much sense.
Who has she killed that was innocent? If memory serves right, she refused to kill innocents when training in Braavos, and has only killed deserving people. This last episode we saw her change her mind to kill Lannister men when she saw that weren't deserving of being killed.
I think outright calling most people in this show evil is kinda reductive of the great writing the show has and how much depth these characters have.
The Artisan
Member
it's strange to me to consider a woman who ended slave owning cities evil. that shows she cares about others than herself.
Nameless
Member
I said 'fully altruistic'. Sure, part of her knew what it was like to live under the thumb of others and rallied against it, but go back to S3. It was also about getting the resources to realize her ultimate goal.
Not a Dany super-fan, no. And again my argument isn't that's she evil, only that this world isn't black and white, and you can make most characters look bad in a bubble. Robb sacrificed 2000, two... thousand, of his own men to win an ultimately meaningless battle in a war he still loss. On paper that's worse than anything Cersei did, but there's no real moral way to play the Game well(see Ned Stark). Not saying Cersei isn't an unlikeable asshole, but calling her "evil" is something else entirely.
ComputerBlue
Member
If ramsay is a 10, Arya is like a 6. She's killing innocent people but in her mind, it's justice, because it kind of is. Ramsay just did it because he enjoyed it, or he did it for power, killed his own father.
Edit: Other than the kid she killed in season 1, I don't think she's killed anyone that was innocent.
They were all guilty of something, all of the frey men slaughtered her family, she spared the women because they didn't. Ramsay would have wiped that family name from existence.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
It's possible, but I don't intimately know how the inheritance rules work given the obvious patriarchy.
DarkJediKnight
Member
Cersei is unique because she wasn't cruel by nature. Imagine being the most beautiful woman in the world and being married to a piece of shit who insults her in front of others.
Do this for 19 years.
Then to have your son and daughter murdered.
When Tommen left her to her demise with the Sept, she made a decision for herself know it would destroy Tommen. First time she. Hose herself over her children.
This woman has never known happiness. "Not turns to ash" remember? The only not she got was to scheme things. Make others feel bad to make herself feel good.
So Cersei is a product of her circumstances.
The Cersei that exists now is the worst Cersei but we have to remember how she came to be.
She is probably the most complex character.
The Artisan
Member
The Sparrows were not innocent but did they deserve to die? Did they ever even kill people themselves?
The room was filled with many more civilians though, not just the Sparrows.
It's strange that this is the argument. Ned never enjoyed killing, he always tried doing what he thought was right. Robb never enjoyed killing, in fact, he felt guilt for going to war ("I sent 2,000 men to die today.") When Cersei saw the sept of baelor light up with that look on her face, do you think she cared at all about all the innocent casualties? when she told pycelle to get rid of all the leftovers from the wedding, was that not a kick to the face of all the poor inhabitants of King's Landing?
it also shows me that she can't really be trusted.
The Artisan
Member
I was actually just mentioning Robb and his sacrifice and that's just the thing; he felt for the men who died for him. Cersei does not. As for Dany, even if her ultimate goal is to get to Westeros and rule, I don't think that undermines the inevitable accomplishments she made in Essos.
if you're evil and she knows it then yeah, you can't trust her. if you are well minded for what you wish for the realm, then you can feel safe. that's varys's logic anyways and he's one of the smartest characters in the show.
Nameless
Member
Sometimes, sure. Her actions against the Starks, Tyrells, and High Sparrow were all done for the sake of her survival. Seems like you feel the decent thing for her to do would've been to roll over and allow her enemies to win.
ComputerBlue
Member
How exactly does ending slavery show you she can't be trusted? I definitely think she has some evil to her, more than people like to believe but I'm not seeing the connect between ending slavery and trust.
Danny has also shown very feint signs of having a little "mad king" in her. When she reached the point where she was ruling a couple of cities some of her decisions were a bit... harsh, and she had to be talked down a bit by more level headed people. Danny isn't as kind hearted as she appears to be. Any time she faces something she doesn't like she goes off the deep end a bit.
Ending slavery isn't why she can't be trusted. Striking a negotiated deal and then immediately murdering the person she made a deal with and everyone associated with him is a sign that she can't be trusted.
Fenderputty
Banned
Nah ... that was the whole point of her running into the Lannister soldiers. You could see a note of compassion when they were telling their stories of home and family. Anything over a 5 on the evil meter and she wrecks that camp simply because of who they were.
The Sparrows entered the Game of Thrones, and when you play the game you win or you die, they deserve to die just as much as Ross Bolton did or the Freys. You're trying to apply real world morality to a world that doesn't play by those rules. Your argument is that you can cause the death of thousands, but if you don't enjoy it than you're good, but if you enjoy it, then you're bad? How many characters have we seen in the show that love fighting, which in turn means enjoying killing, are those people evil? It's not so binary.
Did you even watch the scene? He was going to rat her out, which would've gotten her kidnapped or killed. How is he innocent? It was self defense.
The Artisan
Member
her actions against king robert were evil. she had him killed because she wanted him out of the way, and wanted more power. the starks became a threat to her because she allowed her son to have all that power, instead of being honest and saying "yes this is my son that i made with my brother" - and ned offered her protection but she chose violence and power instead. she didn't do it for the sake of survival, she did it for power.
Precipitating mass murders and mass oppression in the service of yourself and your family is kind of a hallmark of being evil...
Robert was a terrible king who went to war because the woman he loved ran off with someone else. He always hated Cersei, and never truly loved her, even when Cersei tried her best to make it work. Cersei was just a girl when they got married and Robert, along with Tywin, are probably the biggest cause of the way she is.
ComputerBlue
Member
Because they wouldn't have stopped slavery otherwise. Nor would they have agreed to any of her terms, it was quite apparent.
I don't recall her fucking over anyone who didn't deserve it.
Slavers are probably the worst of the bunch so betraying them was the best course of action.
Robert a terrible king? A terrible king to his queen sure, but not really a terrible king to the people.
The Artisan
Member
but her counselors remind her of that. Tyrion and Ser Barriston have both been open to her about how some of her ideas are borderline what her father was. And she listened.
That man deserved to die though. She could tell whatever plans he had going forward *if* he could have a dragon, wouldn't be anything good for the world.
Real world morality is exactly how the show manipulates my emotions. "If your lord commands you to burn children, your lord is evil." I hope to god there's no one on GAF who would ration that killing princess Shereen was the right thing to do.
Also, his whole "play game of thrones win or die etc." I don't accept everything Cersei says as gospel. and this is a show about war, therefore there will be a lot of killing and that's why i say yes, if you cause the death of thousands and you have a conscience about it then you are good at heart, and if you enjoy it, then you are fucking evil.
Cersei didn't kill Robert because he was a terrible king. She didn't do it for the realm, she did it for herself.
An 11 or 12 yr old unarmed boy isnt innocent? I'd hate to live in ur world.
Nameless
Member
Somewhat, but he still did it. And their sacrifice didn't motivate him, in any way, to treat the lives of his men and their cause less recklessly.
Dany brought some good to Essos, but there's no way to know if it's more good then bad, especially since the well being of the continent wasn't important enough for her to stay there permanently and ensure it turns around . The 2nd Gulf War is a pretty spot on comparison here.
sonycowboy
Member
I think you have it a bit out of order. Ned offered her protection from Robert. She didn't want him "out of the way" or "more power". Ned was going to tell him that his children weren't his own. Which, knowing Robert, would have likely meant death for her, Jamie, and the children.
Orochinagis
Member
Welp, Arya was straight up defensive the whole scene always holding the sword, didnt tried to blend or kill them,She just got surprised they were "normal" human beings.
But this is GoT, the soldiers may turn hostile or she may turn hostile to them when both reach kingslanding. Arya is just a jerk who refused the faceless man teachings several times and is following her own vendetta that might probably backfire on her if Arya let her feelings took control on those soldiers
My knowledge of when this all went down is a bit fuzzy because I haven't watched any GOT since last year, but from what I remember they didn't agree to any of her terms because Danny had nothing of value besides the dragons and they looked down upon her because she was a woman. Then when Danny finally offered up something of value for the Unsullied, they started negotiating. Her response to being looked down upon was setting them all on fucking fire. This is why I think Danny has the potential to go Mad Queen on people and why I don't think she's exactly good. Any time she faces opposition or something she doesn't like, her response is usually way more extreme than it really requires.
The Artisan
Member
That doesn't make him an evil man though. I could think of negative traits to give Robb; I'd say he was arrogant, and naive due to his inexperience. He definitely made choices I didn't agree with as a viewer. But he was doing what what he was doing because he thought it was right.
I'll give you that, we don't know how those Essosi cities will fare with her leaving, but she needed to leave for the story to advance. Tyrion and Varys both recognize that Westeros is increasingly becoming a horrible place and needs better guidance and rule.
Sunster
Member
yes they deserved to die. they were preventing Cersei from taking what was hers and from controlling her son (glad he's dead too btw). fuck em'. as for the innocents? that's unfortunate but that's how the game of thrones needed to be played in Cercei's particular situation.
The Artisan
Member
I was talking about the scene where Ned goes to the throne room to see Joffrey already sitting on it. Ned hands Cersei the parchment but she doesn't care about it. Ned tries doing what he's right but Cersei already has what she wants; power, and her husband dead.
heh, this post. are you sure this isn't cersei herself talkin through you?
Pagusas
Elden Member
Yes Arya is evil.
How is entering the game not a good enough reason for you to die? You're trying to kill other people for power, so when those people kill you back, you totally deserved it. It comes with the territory. I mean, you say Cersei is evil because she killed Robert for herself, but then say people who enter the game aren't deserving of death when they are doing it for themselves?
He was literally trying to get her killed. So she's evil because she panicked and killed someone who was older than her and was trying to harm her? Not even in the real world would that make her evil, even less in Game of Thrones.
Nameless
Member
The Game of Thrones doesn't happen in a bubble. Ned doesn't tell Robert about Cersei & Jamie because he didn't want to be the responsible for the death of her children(who were already doomed btw) -- how many thousands of lives are saved if he allows one atrocity that likely prevents much bigger ones?
The whole Cersei / Sept / Margaery thing was the Game of Thrones equivalent of
They were all evil manipulative people who were trying to exploit Tommen for their own personal gains and actively wrecked the lives of everyone who crossed them. They all deserved to get blown away. That storyline was just a case of Cersei being the least evil (which I didn't realize was possible until the others came along). I didn't even realize I was rooting for Cersei until it became apparent what was going on at the end.
They were all evil manipulative people who were trying to exploit Tommen for their own personal gains and actively wrecked the lives of everyone who crossed them. They all deserved to get blown away. That storyline was just a case of Cersei being the least evil (which I didn't realize was possible until the others came along). I didn't even realize I was rooting for Cersei until it became apparent what was going on at the end.
Sunster
Member
I was talking about the scene where Ned goes to the throne room to see Joffrey already sitting on it. Ned hands Cersei the parchment but she doesn't care about it. Ned tries doing what he's right but Cersei already has what she wants; power, and her husband dead.heh, this post. are you sure this isn't cersei herself talkin through you?
I like to get inside the minds of characters when I watch character driven shows. A post about Arya would have read differently.
The Artisan
Member
which character are we comparing Cersei to? Ned "entered the game" not for self gain. He didn't want power, or the iron throne, or to be king's hand, or to even go to king's landing he was dragged into all of it. then when he learns the truth he tries to protect them but it backfires on him all the way.
for most of the show, Dany has not had any storylines intertwined with other major Westerosi characters so we can only base hers on her actions in Essos and most of which was done to make it a better place.
ComputerBlue
Member
You should rewatch it.
She offered them something for the unsullied. He refused and insulted her, she then offered him a dragon and he accepted but continued to insult her now knowing she spoke the tongue. So she had one of her dragons set him on fire after he passed the slave baton while telling the unsullied to kill the remaining slavers, which they did. At that point she gave them all a choice, stay here or come with me, you're all free.
I see nothing wrong with what she did given the fact that they were slavers who have done far far worse. She gave freedom and life to many who deserved it, while killing far less slavers, who deserve a fate worse than death for their crimes.
Yeah, she's lost her cool and acted stupid plenty of times but so has just about everyone else with any bit of power.
Don't get me wrong, I have zero problem with freeing slavers. I just think Danny went off the deep end a bit in doing so.
Pagusas
Elden Member
Evil people can do good deads, or commit evil acts in the name of good. Can you really be a good person if you nailed hundreds of people, some of who may have been innocent, to crosses and let them die?
Ned is maybe the only character, that comes to mind, that entered the game and didn't do it for himself. People like The Sparrows, Tyrells, Baratheons and whatnot, entered because they wanted power and if they got killed while trying to take that power away from others, then they deserved to die even if they were more moral than the people they tried to take the power from.
The Artisan
Member
Why were the Tyrells evil? Why were Mace, Loras, and Mace Tyrell evil? What did they do?The whole Cersei / Sept / Margaery thing was the Game of Thrones equivalent of
They were all evil manipulative people who were trying to exploit Tommen for their own personal gains and actively wrecked the lives of everyone who crossed them. They all deserved to get blown away. That storyline was just a case of Cersei being the least evil (which I didn't realize was possible until the others came along). I didn't even realize I was rooting for Cersei until it became apparent what was going on at the end.
Why were they worse influences on Tommen than his own mother? What did the bystanders in the sept to deserve getting lit up? Why is it okay that Cersei killed them?
ah well then is it safe to assume that was a joke post?
ComputerBlue
Member
I don't think so. She ended their lives and gave them a quick death. If it was an eye for an eye they'd live out their days being slaves themselves which to them would be worse than death.
The Tyrells were basically aiming to be Neo Lannisters. They were collectively using Margaery, who was in on it as well, as a path to the throne basically just like Cersei carved her own path to the throne
The Artisan
Member
oh you're talking about how Dany did that to the slave masters, yeah that was fucked up, I'll give you that. I didn't like that she did that. It's hard to argue for the slave masters though, they got a taste of their own medicine.
Sparrows gained power because of Cersei. She did that to herself and she was guilty herself...and I don't think the Sparrows ever murdered anyone. Not that I like them, though. I would've rather beat the shit out of them instead of kill them. Tyrells never killed innocent people to get power afaik. Olenna killed Joffrey, but he was a sick beast that deserved it. Renly Baratheon wanted to be king and honestly, I really feel like he wanted to genuinely be a good king. Stannis is another evil fucker though.
Sons before daughters, daughters before uncles.
The Artisan
Member
The Lannisters order the burning of villages and kill innocent people. I got no reason to believe the Tyrells would commit such terror.
Moments before her death, Margery even showed concern for the lives of all the people in the sept, realizing literally everybody there was in danger.
The Tyrells and Lannisters collectively were about to walk into the Sept and murder everyone in their path until Tommen stopped them. Listening to the way the Tyrells interacted with Cersei and the others made it pretty clear to me they wouldn't have a problem crossing that line if it came to it, they just never had the chance to.
The concern was driven from the fact that they were about to go up with them. This is the same Margery who was trying to get with Tommen before Joffrey's corpse was even cold
What about killing someone intentionally then Chopping em into bloody bits and pieces, taking the sweet time cooking the body into a beautiful pie? Then feed the said pie to its family member and only slitting the mans throat after hes had a taste.
Shes approaching Hannibal lector tier evil right now.
The Artisan
Member
You realize though that you calling the Tyrells the neo Lannisters is acknowledging that the Lannisters are by far the most evil family comparably in this story?
When Jaime & the Tyrell army got to the sept, they didn't go charging in, they started with a warning. Also, I asked individually for each, what has Margery ever done that was evil? What has ser Loras ever done that was evil? What has Mace ever done that was evil?
That same Margery that was fully aware that Joffrey was a vicious fuck whose corpse doesn't deserve a single thought or drop of love.
You mean the people who killed her brother and mother?
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That wasn't even your original point. At first you tried to say she was evil because she had killed innocents, which she never has, and not the way she killed people.
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