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Game of Thrones *NO BOOK DISCUSSION* |OT| Season 7 - [Read the OP]
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Atomic Playboy
Member
Oh, I'd forgotten the good ol' "Talk shit, get hit" scene. Best thing Cersei ever did.
BannedEpisode
Member
She did have a tidy collection of Severed dwarf heads.
Cercei's biggest flaws are that she is reactionary, paranoid, and extremely petty. She also has very little value for human life, especially the lives of people she personally deems valueless.
You can blend all those traits together and you probably get something you could easily describe as "evil".
Danny probably hasn't done enough specific acts with intended malice to get the same judgement. She has however shown on a bunch of occasions some "mad queen" tendencies inherited from her dad. She -really- looks like she enjoys watching people burn alive.
Cercei's biggest flaws are that she is reactionary, paranoid, and extremely petty. She also has very little value for human life, especially the lives of people she personally deems valueless.
You can blend all those traits together and you probably get something you could easily describe as "evil".
Danny probably hasn't done enough specific acts with intended malice to get the same judgement. She has however shown on a bunch of occasions some "mad queen" tendencies inherited from her dad. She -really- looks like she enjoys watching people burn alive.
The Artisan
Member
To the first question, I don't think I edited your post and added things to it, if that's what you mean? The text in that part of my post was disagreeing about how Ramsay made Cersei look tame.
And to your second question, because I am seeing similar comments made today to the ones I saw yesterday defending Cersei, so I have to repeat some of the things I believed
Danny has an evil streak in her but I think its more a case of she doesn't realize she isn't as good/beneficial as she thinks she is, or that her moments of good have consequences she isn't entirely aware of. How many innocent people died because of Danny's actions, and how many more innocent people do you think are going to die when the Dothraki start running wild over Westeros?
BannedEpisode
Member
Oh there will definitely be a moment after a battle or something where Danny and Tyirin will look at each other and go, "wait... are we the baddies?".
Lol
yellowjacket25
Member
I thought there was a scene in the throne room where Joffrey confronts Cersei about something he heard. Cersei thinks it is about her and Jaime but it turns out that Joffrey just heard that Robert had been with other women and had bastards in the city. Then it cuts to babies being murdered in brothels.
The Artisan
Member
to the bolded: whenever it was reported to her that innocent people were being killed out of fury of those put out of power (maybe it was the harpys?) she felt remorse, and anger. maybe she even felt guilt. however, cersei felt nothing, probably goodness when both her enemies and innocent bystanders were killed on her orders.
Dany learns about her dragon burning 1 little girl alive, and it shook her the fuck up. She was indirectly responsible for that but she probably ended up crying for it. Cersei, indirectly responsible for...here, let's just take one example which is the killing of late K. Robert's bastard children (since she's directly or indirectly responsible for the killing of many groups), and she felt nothing. Maybe she even felt satisfaction from the killing of children, whether it was her order or not.
As to your last post, if the Dothraki kill innocents on their way to whatever conquest Dany orders, she's not going to approve of it. Just like how she outlawed reaving, raping, raving etc. to the ironborn.
This whole baby thing is I think Cersei sometimes gets a bad rep for shit he didn't even do. That isn't to say she is a good person, but a good bit of her evilness is just byproduct of what she has to do to survive.
Early on we are told she is "bad" because she cheats on the King with her brother, and has lied to him about having his children, then we are told she is bad because she killed an innocent man to protect this secret. Well, Cersei genuinely was happy when she married Robert but would come to learn he could only love Lyanna, treated Cersei like shit, and was always too drunk to even attempt to have more children after her first born died. Was she to never be with someone who actually loved her?
Then we learn she didn't even kill Jon Arryn, that was all her wife and Littlefinger. People also disliked her for what happened with Bran, but she didn't have a say in that, that was all Jaimie. She was put in a situation where her lover tried to kill a Stark, what was she to do there? Let the Starks find out and have Jaime killed?
I mean, I guess she's evil because she helped kill Robert and kidnap Ned, but that's also not really true, is it? Ned would've told Robert and Robert would have killed her and all her children, which is why Ned warned her to leave King's Landing, but what life is one where Robert is chasing you down for the rest of your life? She did what she did to protect her children.
Then you got people thinking she murdered babies when it was actually Joffrey. A lot of the shit she gets blamed for is just her not giving up and letting others kill her. I mean, like I said, she's not a good person but she isn't pure evil, at least she wasn't. She kinda lost her fucking mind when all her kids started getting killed off.
Early on we are told she is "bad" because she cheats on the King with her brother, and has lied to him about having his children, then we are told she is bad because she killed an innocent man to protect this secret. Well, Cersei genuinely was happy when she married Robert but would come to learn he could only love Lyanna, treated Cersei like shit, and was always too drunk to even attempt to have more children after her first born died. Was she to never be with someone who actually loved her?
Then we learn she didn't even kill Jon Arryn, that was all her wife and Littlefinger. People also disliked her for what happened with Bran, but she didn't have a say in that, that was all Jaimie. She was put in a situation where her lover tried to kill a Stark, what was she to do there? Let the Starks find out and have Jaime killed?
I mean, I guess she's evil because she helped kill Robert and kidnap Ned, but that's also not really true, is it? Ned would've told Robert and Robert would have killed her and all her children, which is why Ned warned her to leave King's Landing, but what life is one where Robert is chasing you down for the rest of your life? She did what she did to protect her children.
Then you got people thinking she murdered babies when it was actually Joffrey. A lot of the shit she gets blamed for is just her not giving up and letting others kill her. I mean, like I said, she's not a good person but she isn't pure evil, at least she wasn't. She kinda lost her fucking mind when all her kids started getting killed off.
The Artisan
Member
She chose power and a false ruling of her incest born son over the truth, an honest truth with Ned offering protection. She put Joffrey in power knowing the monster he is, Joffrey subsequently ordered the killing of Robert's bastards and Cersei felt nothing about it; that happened because Joffrey was put on the Iron Throne and he was put there because of Cersei.
Orochinagis
Member
So one of the weak points of the wall is the very end of the wall and there is just one castle guarding which is deserted because the current war with the Boltons?
Reminds me of the current US wall with mexico where there is a crappy wall guarding the border on the coast
Reminds me of the current US wall with mexico where there is a crappy wall guarding the border on the coast
Oh no, she tricked the guy who literally started a war because the woman he loved ran off to be with the person she actually loved. She's a bad person because she didn't choose "an honest truth"? Come on.
Again, what was she to do? Let Robert murder them? It was him or her children, she obviously chose her children. Any mother would, especially one that loved them as much as Cersei did.
The great thing about Cersei is how non-one dimensional she is, but some of you guys want to make her seem like she's a poorly written character who does evil things because she is evil.
Has nothing to do with the Boltons. The Night's Watch has been under manned for years.
The Artisan
Member
Robert's rebellion wasn't Cersei's concern. When Robert was on his deathbed though (because of Cersei), after Ned learned about the incest, Cersei put Joffrey on the iron throne. Because she wanted to continue being in power. "come on" what? Yes, she was dishonest because of her evil fucking lust for power.
This was after Robert was on his deathbed. Robert was dying so there's nothing he could've done; Ned in his last few hours as Hand of the King was offering protection. But Cersei felt daring and wanted to stay in power, a wrongful right to power that Joffrey had.
? I never said she was poorly written or that she is one dimensional. But she is definitely fucking evil and I find it strange as all hell how people have tried to rationalize the evil things she has done, and comparable to Dany's arc on the show.
The sept was justified now?
None of them were in open conflict with Cersei or the Lannisters. She just backstabbed people who were running laps around her, politically. And she blew up dozens if not hundreds of bystanders while she was at it because why not.
I'd say the sparrows were the only ones she had a legit reason to go after after what happened. But the Tyrells were allies and she just couldn't accept them having more power than her.
I don't know what it is with all the attempted justification of Cersei's actions. She may not be Ramsay or Joffrey level of evil but she's pretty damn high up there.
None of them were in open conflict with Cersei or the Lannisters. She just backstabbed people who were running laps around her, politically. And she blew up dozens if not hundreds of bystanders while she was at it because why not.
I'd say the sparrows were the only ones she had a legit reason to go after after what happened. But the Tyrells were allies and she just couldn't accept them having more power than her.
I don't know what it is with all the attempted justification of Cersei's actions. She may not be Ramsay or Joffrey level of evil but she's pretty damn high up there.
darkstar0155
Member
What about her squeezing tyrions junk when he was a newfound baby. What was her "justification" for that other than being evil?
The Artisan
Member
It's borderline the strangest thing/argument I have ever seen on NeoGAF.
Or bringing the heads of innocent dwarves. She gave no fucks that they were the wrong dwarves and lost their lives for nothing.
I don't get this "wrongful" thing. Everyone has stolen the throne from people who tried to kill them, why is Cersei now evil because he would always be too drunk to actually have children of his own or that she killed the man that was going to kill herself?
She's evil because she did a fucked up thing as a child? I said she wasn't a good person but to claim that THAT'S why she was evil? Like I said, a lot of the things people associate with her that make her "evil" are her just not rolling over and letting others kill her.
Nameless
Member
On break I'll respond to a few specific things when I have time. But clearly part of the reason people perceive Cersei the way they do, aside from her being unlikeable and a woman(Tywin doesn't get judged as harshly despite playing the Game more ruthlessly) is because she was used as a red herring for several crimes she didn't actually commit:
-poisoning Jon Aryn
-sending the assassin after Bran
-killing Roberts bastards
-trying to have Tyrion killed
The show implied her involvement in each of these acts early on and judging from some posts people still falsely associate her with them.
-poisoning Jon Aryn
-sending the assassin after Bran
-killing Roberts bastards
-trying to have Tyrion killed
The show implied her involvement in each of these acts early on and judging from some posts people still falsely associate her with them.
bruh. She blew up a church full of people.
The Artisan
Member
Joffrey isn't the son of Robert.
She wanted him killed because she wanted to stay in power and have more power. She did this out of her own selfish desires, not for the betterment of the realm. And I'm not sure what you mean by the bolded.
This only establishes that there are other evil people on the show, not just her. And people thought she had involvement in those things because she is a prime example of evil on the show. Just because there are other evil characters doesn't mean she isn't one of them.
darkstar0155
Member
Does the show even ever show how far apart in age her and Tyrion are? For all we know she could have been 15 when she did that. Either way I was just pointing out one single thing she did on top of all the others.
More_Badass
Member
Wait, I feel like I missed stuff now. Cersei wasn't involved in those?
Again, how does it make her evil that she had children with Jaime? Robert WOULDN'T give her legitimate children, she tried, a lot. "Hey Cersei, why aren't you miserable your whole life with a man that hates you? How dare you try to find happiness."
And my bolded is because once Ned goes and tells Robert, he would go after Cersei, Jaime and all her kids. She killed Robert because that could happen.
Again, "why don't you just roll over and let them fuck you over, Cersei?". They have less evil points than you do so you're supposed to just die and not fight back.
Exactly, she didn't do a bunch of the shit people hated her for.
Nope, Littlefinger and Lysa Arryn did that. And then Joffrey tried to kill Tyrion during the Battle of Blackwater.
The Artisan
Member
That is a separate issue entirely. You're not supposed to have sex with your brother.
a WHOLE LOT OF PEOPLE in Westeros have had miserable lives, and that is NO excuse to make the lines of others miserable too.
But Ned didn't go to Robert. He went to Cersei, he knew Robert would kill them and Ned offered her protection. She knew this would mean she would lose power, and power she loves more than her children, so instead she puts Joffrey on the iron throne which is an evil act in itself because she knew the monster that her son was.
Again WHAT man? She murdered a bunch of fucking people for her own selfish desires and gain! If that isn't fucking evil, I don't know what it is.
I feel Tywin's generally judged less harshly because he's generally more smart with his ruthlessness. He knew better who he could fuck over and who he couldn't afford to do that. I agree though with him being as bad as Cersei though. Cersei basically got the ruthlessness of Tywin without the smarts that Tyrion more had.
Dude, the Targaryens wed brother and sister for thousands of years. She's "not supposed to", what?
How does it make Robert miserable to have sex with Jaime? Dude had more bastards than stars in the sky. She did what he did but at least she kept it to 3. If she's evil for that, than Robert is the most evil man known to history.
But Ned WAS going to go to Robert, it was an actuality, so she killed him before Ned could ruin their lives. I have to repeat myself again, you guys are calling her out for just not rolling over and letting Ned and Robert kill them off. Under his protection? Come on, are you going to bet you life on fucking Ned? That guy is too dumb. It was kill or be killed.
She murdered the family that was trying to usurp the Lannisters, yeah, and the people who were trying to control her son. This is playing the game 101. Don't want to die? Don't try to steal the throne, no one would say Robert is evil because he stole the throne.
Fenderputty
Banned
In what world is Cersei not fucking evil? Jesus ...
Robert was dead when Ned was arrested though. If Ned wanted to tell Robert, Robert would have been told.
Nope, Ned could've told him here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K517YIJKcfw
But how was Cersei to know Ned would change his mind on Robert's deathbed? Now we're just blaming her for not seeing the future.
The Artisan
Member
Yes, and don't you think that it was disgusting? Other people doing the same wrong thing doesn't make it okay.
I'm not sure how this is relevant to the rest of our discussion. Robert cheated on his wife, Cersei cheated on her husband. If you want to argue Robert is evil as well, sure, go ahead. My argument is not with him.
I find it really strange how Cersei has a defense force here. Cersei wanted power, she did want to give it up and killed people for it. How is that not evil?
Why did Margery deserve to die? Because she was manipulating Tommen? Well, how was Cersei a better influence on Tommen than Margery? In fact, would Cersei be okay with ANY woman being with Tommen? It seems as though Cersei's main problem was losing power, and that is the mentality of an evil person.
Why did Loras deserve to die?
Why did Mace deserve to die?
Why did the bystanders deserve to die?
What do you hope to get people arguing against you to come to? It really sounds like you want those arguing against you to say "Damn, yeah Cersei wants power and deserves it so she should kill people who she thinks are getting in her way. And there's nothing wrong with killing innocent people. They deserved to die, because Cersei wanted them dead. But Cersei certainly doesn't deserve to die; absolutely not. She does not deserve any punishment for her crimes, only the people who she doesn't like deserve punishment."
darkstar0155
Member
Honestly it reads like how people in love try to justify the evil shit their significant others do. Seriously.
I didn't realize Tywin was ever viewed as anything less than evil. Dude was evil through and through. Then again we now have people saying Cercei isn't evil so who knows.
What a false dichotomy. You're buying too much into Cersei's "game of throne" kool-aid. The only reason she thinks that way is because she's far too arrogant and power-hungry to consider doing anything else besides ruthlessly staying in power.
I think people are trying to justify the fact that they rooted for her blowing up the Sept at the end of last season
Atomic Playboy
Member
She conspired with Jaime to murder Bran. She specifically says "he saw us", indicating that Bran cannot be allowed to live, prompting Jaime to fling him from the window.
She ordered Nymeria killed. When Nymeria runs off and can't be found, she orders Lady killed in her place, despite Lady never being involved in anything.
She has an affair with her cousin, Lancel, and may have convinced him to keep Robert so drunk that his hunt was bound to end in his death.
She imprisons Ned for telling the truth and installs Joffrey as King.
She defends Janos Slynt's actions in massacring Robert's bastards.
She orders Mandon Moore kill Tyrion at the battle of Blackwater.
She rescinds Margaery's orders to give leftover food to poor people, instead making Pycelle give it to the dogs.
Her only reaction to being presented the head of a dwarf is anger that it isn't Tyrion.
She deposes the High Septon and replaces him with the High Sparrow, enabling the Sparrows to seize power, giving way to shocking abuses of authority.
She arranges the arrests of Loras and Margaery Tyrell.
She has Pycelle assassinated.
She blows up the sept with the faith militant, killing many hundreds of innocent people, solely to assassinate political adversaries and avoid standing trial for actual crimes she has committed.
She repeatedly engages in unscrupulous behavior to the betterment of her, Jaime and her children to the detriment of everyone else. She literally tells Jaime, on multiple occasions, "We are the only people who matter." She may not be psychotically evil like Ramsey, but she is definitely on the "evil" side of the continuum.
Forgot that one. I can forgive Cersei for legitimately believing Tyrion was guilty of killing her son, but she took pleasure in torturing that heinous nun bitch. Sure, the nun is not a good person either, but noble characters (Ned, Jon) swing the sword and lament that they had to do it; Cersei delights in causing pain.
More_Badass
Member
Yes, exactly. Just because they did it doesn't mean it's acceptable or right. Hence you know, the major plot point for like three seasons where Cersei and co are trying to cover up their relationship and executes/torture people who find out or even mention it and it becomes a mocking insult towards them
The Artisan
Member
you should never fuck your brother.
darkstar0155
Member
I could care less that Cercei and Jamie screwed and had a kid out of it. That's whatever. Her screwing over Ned to stay in power and put her son on the thrown is what was evil. Wasn't Ned going to be King after Robert died (been a lllloooonnngggg time since I watched that first season). Who would go after her, Jamie, and their kids once Robert had died? He already wanted Ned to be his successor from what I remembered.
Your argument "this is playing the game" just really comes across as cheesy and a weak argument.
"Don't want to die? Don't steal the throne"... you mean sorta like she did? And the family wasn't trying to unsurp the lannisters. At that point Margery WAS a lannister. She just didn't want to lose power, and was losing it. And hey, her torturing that one sept lady, that's definitely not evil. No. Not at all. Her trying to get Tyrion tried for a murder he didn't commit (and she didn't want to hear anything to the contrary even though it made zero sense) sure wasn't evil either.
No, I don't find it disgusting. In this world incest really isn't that big of a deal. You're applying real life morality here where it need not apply.
Because the argument is that she wronged Robert, and thus she did an evil act. Robert's own actions are very relevant.
Margery didn't want to lose power either. So, she's evil, too?
So Cersei was to let the Sparrows throw her back in jail and that's that? Just roll over and die, Cersei, don't fight back.
That's the reality of this world. You want to step up and enter the game? You're now free game. This isn't even a Game of Thrones only thing, the same sentiment was spoken about in The Wire and Breaking Bad, if you willingly enter 'the game', you are no longer innocent.
Bits N Pieces
Member
I think with regards to Cersei its not that she's either evil or not but more is she a sociopath or a psychopath? My money is on the former.
The great thing about GoT is that there are hardly any characters you can describe in terms of black or white / good or evil, most people have many shades of grey and Cersei certainly falls into that category.
The great thing about GoT is that there are hardly any characters you can describe in terms of black or white / good or evil, most people have many shades of grey and Cersei certainly falls into that category.
Exactly, Cersei isn't a good person, by far, but a lot of her "evil" actions aren't even her own, like Nameless posted above, or she had to do them or die. I think it's so simple to just say, "oh yeah, she's evil" and that's not.
ComputerBlue
Member
I don't think there are any references to Cersei at a younger age than this, but she was always evil.
Don't even see how people are questioning it.
Yeah, plenty of her actions are a result of the world around her which anyone would do, but at the core she's a terrible person.
Don't even see how people are questioning it.
Yeah, plenty of her actions are a result of the world around her which anyone would do, but at the core she's a terrible person.
darkstar0155
Member
Who did Margery kill? What did she do that was evil? She manipulated Tommen is about it. But was Tommen not happy with her? It may have been bad, but did it justify her death and that of most of her family? Did it justify having her brother be thrown in jail, then her? What negative thing came out of Margery being Tommens new go to, other than Cercei losing power and influence. She was a much better influence than Cercie.
The Artisan
Member
Direct familial incest is a big deal in this world, otherwise the Lannisters would not have gone great lengths to hide it.
"Craster's daughters, also his wives. And they give him more daughters."
"That's foul!"
"That's beyond foul."
So yes, by all accounts, it is a big fucking deal and it is disgusting. Cousin incest is what is acceptable and occasionally uncle/niece/aunt/nephew.
It definitely DOES need to apply...or are you just making an exception since it is Cersei you are defending?
No, the argument is that she is evil, and one of the evil acts she committed was the killing Robert. If you want to argue that Robert's own actions make him evil as well; go ahead and make that argument. My argument is not that Cersei is the only evil character on the show.
Was Margery so obsessed with power that she killed people to keep power? And what about the other people I mentioned?
Why did Loras deserve to die?
Why did Mace deserve to die?
Why did the bystanders deserve to die?
Well, we will never know what the exact outcomes of her trial would be, now would we? Also...are you saying Cersei is NOT guilty of any of the actions she made throughout seasons 1-6 and that she should be allowed to get away with it?
What we do know is that Loras had to face consequences; he got mutilated which Margery didn't appreciate understandably, but they didn't kill Loras. High Sparrow may be duplicitous, but not nearly on the same level as Carcetti.
You also didn't address the last part of my post so I'll copy paste it here. What do you hope to get people arguing against you to come to? It really sounds like you want those arguing against you to say "Damn, yeah Cersei wants power and deserves it so she should kill people who she thinks are getting in her way. And there's nothing wrong with killing innocent people. They deserved to die, because Cersei wanted them dead. But Cersei certainly doesn't deserve to die, absolutely not. She does not deserve any punishment for her crimes, only the people who she doesn't like deserve punishment."
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