Support NeoGAF

[Mibu no ookami]

The Bride gets completely humiliated by Pai Mei during training. She came there thinking she was a girlboss....and then she got put in her place real fucking quick. Budd gets the drop on her and literally buries her alive. It's only thanks to Pai Mei's training that she gets out of it. How did you forget all of this if you have seen it 20 times?

That exempts her from being a girlboss?

Spoiler: TLOUP2 spoiler

Abby is literally turned into a slave and has all her friends killed, but people in this thread are saying she fits the criteria of a girlboss...

but the Bride getting humiliated by Pai Mei during a 5 minute montage and getting trained despite him claiming he would never train anyone allows her to be exempt...

 

[ByWatterson]

That exempts her from being a girlboss?

Spoiler: TLOUP2 spoiler

Abby is literally turned into a slave and has all her friends killed, but people in this thread are saying she fits the criteria of a girlboss...

but the Bride getting humiliated by Pai Mei during a 5 minute montage and getting trained despite him claiming he would never train anyone allows her to be exempt...

That's because they're wrong. Abby is literally the exact opposite of a girlboss.

 

[Danjin44]

After the first game I have zero interest in this game.

I'm just done with Sony's western first party games.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

The entire Pai Mei sequence, her doe-eyed surprise at Bill's betrayal, her sudden surge of maternal feelings, and the pain she feels in having to kill Bill are all examples of flaws, overcoming obstacles, development, and textured humanity.

She's a bad bitch. She's not a girlboss.

Please give me a list of all Sony female characters who are girlbosses based on your definition and we can compare and we can compare to the male characters who don't get the same tag.

 

[viveks86]

Spoiler: TLOUP2 spoiler

Abby is literally turned into a slave and has all her friends killed, but people in this thread are saying she fits the criteria of a girlboss...

Ignore those people. The people you are debating now have way more nuance anyway

 

[ByWatterson]

Please give me a list of all Sony female characters who are girlbosses based on your definition and we can compare and we can compare to the male characters who don't get the same tag.

Talking to the wrong guy. Sony generally avoids this.

Only arguable one is Nadine from Uncharted 4, but even she has background and skills and flaws.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

That's because they're wrong. Abby is literally the exact opposite of a girlboss.

I wasn't the one claiming that the Bride is a girlboss, I'm just saying she fits their definition as given.

You guys want to make excuses for characters in the past that have the exact same traits and characteristics as characters today.

Yeah, there are badly written characters like She-Hulk. There are badly written male characters too. Have you seen the Rock in the Fast and Furious movies?

Like what are we actually talking about here?

 

[near]

That's because they're wrong. Abby is literally the exact opposite of a girlboss.

I'd disagree. I think she's written close enough to the trope that it is easy to see her that way. Her actual story arc is compressed, and the game demands empathy from you before actually earning it through character development.

 

[ByWatterson]

I wasn't the one claiming that the Bride is a girlboss, I'm just saying she fits their definition as given.

You're asking me to answer for arguments made by others. This is silly.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

John Wick doesn't have deep character writing. His story arc is simple and the films don't try to hide that. But that is kind of the point. He is Baba Jaga, he is a mythic figure in a hyper violent revenge fantasy. There is no emotional complexity, they're giving us action and worldbuilding. That is the storytelling foundation of John Wick. And plenty of people do critique the writing in the films, but they don't call him Mary Sue because that term is reserved for female characters. This is a linguistic issue not a critical one.

A derogatory description reserved for female characters even though male characters can exhibit the exact same characteristics without anyone blushing over it or going on diatribes over it...

Yeah... thanks for proving my point...

 

[viveks86]

Like what are we actually talking about here?

That the "girlboss" was an actual trend and an actual problem in media. Just like the infallible male hero was an actual trend and an actual problem back in the day. It's ok to acknowledge the trend as long as other tropes are acknowledged as well.

I would add that the trend has already peaked and there is more nuance with female leads as well these days. Even overtly feminist content like Handmaid's Tale and Yellowjackets have turned them all multi-dimensional and flawed. The industry is already self-correcting, imo.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

That the "girlboss" was an actual trend and an actual problem in media. Just like the infallible male hero was an actual trend and an actual problem back in the day. It's ok to acknowledge the trend as long as other tropes are acknowledged as well.

I would add that the trend has already peaked and there is more nuance with female leads as well these days. Even overtly feminist content like Handmaid's Tale and Yellowjackets have turned them all multi-dimensional and flawed. The industry is already self-correcting, imo.

There has always been good and bad writing. Trying to encapsulate that into broad terms is lazy.

Trying to apply that to characters in 2-3 minute trailers... is a special level of insane.

 

[viveks86]

Trying to apply that to characters in 2-3 minute trailers... is a special level of insane.

Amen to that!

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Amen to that!

Sucker Punch doesn't have to do much to have Atsu a more compelling character than Jin. Jin was like a C- character and that's probably being generous.

 

[near]

A derogatory description reserved for female characters even though male characters can exhibit the exact same characteristics without anyone blushing over it or going on diatribes over it...

Yeah... thanks for proving my point...

You're twisting what I said. I'm not excusing male characters for having shallow writing, I literally said that plenty of people critique that too. The difference is in the language, not the critique itself. Flat male characters get called out all the time, like John Wick, they don't just get called Mary Sues because that term has been traditionally gendered. You seem to struggle to comprehend this.

My entire point this whole time is that any character male or female can suffer from poor writing, lack of emotional depth, or just overpowered characterization. If we're talking about patterns, and if the industry starts falling into a framework with certain kinds of female leads that feel underwritten, its fair to point that out just live we've done with male leads for decades.

So, no. I'm not proving your point.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Console wars are strong in this thread. Wow!

I've been away for a few months, I come back, and same old shit from the same ole players

 

[DevilHunterX0]

Seems like I stumbled into the gender studies graduates club house...

 

[mckmas8808]

I've been away for a few months, I come back, and same old shit from the same ole players

For a while I thought you quit GAF.

 

[DeepEnigma]

For a while I thought you quit GAF.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

You're twisting what I said. I'm not excusing male characters for having shallow writing, I literally said that plenty of people critique that too. The difference is in the language, not the critique itself. Flat male characters get called out all the time, like John Wick, they don't just get called Mary Sues because that term has been traditionally gendered. You seem to struggle to comprehend this.

My entire point this whole time is that any character male or female can suffer from poor writing, lack of emotional depth, or just overpowered characterization. If we're talking about patterns, and if the industry starts falling into a framework with certain kinds of female leads that feel underwritten, its fair to point that out just live we've done with male leads for decades.

So, no. I'm not proving your point.

I don't care what they call John Wick or don't call him. My point is why are you pretending as if the character isn't lauded and adored as a top action franchise character despite sharing the exact same things you'd criticize a female character for simply because the character was female?

You've seen patterns where you want to see them by ignoring everything else.

You've taken some example of poorly written female characters and a modern feminist movement that created a term "girlboss" and you've ignored that the explosion of streaming media has created more content and thus more bad content. You've also ignored that we also have far more good content than bad.

There is also a rise in female leads characters in general coinciding with this time period.

Your ever shifting definitions of girlboss says it all and what you'll find is you'll make excuses for characters up to the point where you yourself started shifting rather than the content.

Is Katniss Everdeen a girlboss? Or does she predate your bias? Can you give me examples of specifically Sony female main characters that are and aren't girlbosses?

 

[Inspector Q]

That exempts her from being a girlboss?

Spoiler: TLOUP2 spoiler

Abby is literally turned into a slave and has all her friends killed, but people in this thread are saying she fits the criteria of a girlboss...

but the Bride getting humiliated by Pai Mei during a 5 minute montage and getting trained despite him claiming he would never train anyone allows her to be exempt...

Yes...The Bride is not a girlboss, at least in my opinion. She is a badass, but she has allies that have helped her development. She steamrolls a bunch of "mooks" during the Crazy 88 fight, but every fight against the "list" is a knockdown drag out brawl. She is surrounded by competent people, both enemies and allies alike.

I never even mentioned Abby, but I do have issues with her character, unfortunately. I won't even get into them here since they have nothing to do with the crappy trope we are talking about.

There are tons of crappy tropes. Girlboss or whatever the fuck you want to call it is just one of them. Call it shit writing, I don't give a crap what kind of label you want to put on it. This one has become more prevalent in recent times for whatever reason. As with most things in life, I will just blame The Last Jedi.

 

[mckmas8808]

Yes...The Bride is not a girlboss, at least in my opinion. She is a badass, but she has allies that have helped her development. She steamrolls a bunch of "mooks" during the Crazy 88 fight, but every fight against the "list" is a knockdown drag out brawl. She is surrounded by competent people, both enemies and allies alike.

I never even mentioned Abby, but I do have issues with her character, unfortunately. I won't even get into them here since they have nothing to do with the crappy trope we are talking about.

There are tons of crappy tropes. Girlboss or whatever the fuck you want to call it is just one of them. Call it shit writing, I don't give a crap what kind of label you want to put on it. This one has become more prevalent in recent times for whatever reason. As with most things in life, I will just blame The Last Jedi.

It's probably just better to call it bad writing then.

 

[GymWolf]

Sucker Punch doesn't have to do much to have Atsu a more compelling character than Jin. Jin was like a C- character and that's probably being generous.

For once we agree, dude was bland as hell.

Atsu can only be an improvement over that boring fuck

 

[viveks86]

I'd disagree. I think she's written close enough to the trope that it is easy to see her that way. Her actual story arc is compressed, and the game demands empathy from you before actually earning it through character development.

What in the world... Abby is broken, lost and flawed in every way imaginable. Everything she touches goes to shit. Hate her for other reasons, but girlboss ain't one of them. People finding it easy to see her that way are simply not capable of seeing nuance with her, because of either what she did or how she looks or both.

 

[MagusMajul]

too many women in games i will skip this

 

[ElFenomeno]

Why would you say Rivet is gay? WTF?!

One of the games' writers said so a few years back.

 

[near]

What in the world... Abby is broken, lost and flawed in every way imaginable. Everything she touches goes to shit. Hate her for other reasons, but girlboss ain't one of them. People finding it easy to see her that way are simply not capable of seeing nuance with her, because of either what she did or how she looks or both.

I mean, I agree, she's not completely a girlboss, like I said. But for a large portion of her story arc, she does exhibit a lot of surface-level traits. The game essentially forces you to empathize with her midway through the story. Upon her introduction, she's emotionally restrained, capable, disciplined, strategic, strong, and seemingly in control. There just isn't a lot of room for growth in her character at that point, she's portrayed more as a villain. There's a disconnect between players and Abby for a reason. Where I agree with you is in acknowledging that she is emotionally complicated, has experienced loss, and undergoes a transformation.

 

[mckmas8808]

One of the games' writers said so a few years back.

But.......she isn't. We've played the game. Why would I care what some writer said, if they didn't write it in the game?

 

[DeepEnigma]

One of the games' writers said so a few years back.

But.......she isn't. We've played the game. Why would I care what some writer said, if they didn't write it in the game?

We've already been through this. Maggs is a fraud and was exposed a long time ago and we had a massive thread on it. She has also since been axed on every project and studio since.

"""Confirmed""" by a bitter ex-employee who was in fact not the lead writer for over half of the game's development, was forced to leave before the game was even announced because of her factually abhorrent behavior by throwing tantrums whenever she didn't get her way, and because she kept trying to shoehorn her own ideals into the game's plot, which was entirely scrapped and re-written by Lauren Mee and her co-writers lmao. Sam Maggs' words have no more weight to them than TJ Fixman. In fact, I'd go as far as to say hers have even LESS weight than Fixman's because at least he never got fired after only 9 months of "work".

Maggs also tried to steal all the credit for creating Rivet, and was publicly disproven on Twitter when Maggs tried to claim she alone came up with the name "Rivet", when it was in fact David Kim, NOT Sam Maggs. This is further evidenced by how Mark Stuart heavily emphasized that Rivet was a team effort by everyone from the beginning of development to the end of development during the GDC post mortem on Rift Apart, and the Insomniac Games Instagram account themselves recently confirmed Rivet was a team effort and credited no one specific for Rivet's creation or character.

Anyone who saw or knows of the Rift Apart post-mortem knows that the story and rivet's personality and design were EXTREMELY different while Maggs was the lead writer (to the point that very few team members at IG liked rivet at all) but once she was gone Lauren took over and completely rewrote everything and we got the story and the Rivet we know today.

I have zero problem if Rivet does turn out to be lesbian, but I am frankly appalled at how fast people have latched onto Maggs' words, when she is exploiting the LGBTQ community to try and boost her own selfish personal image and trying to save face for getting fired (she also got fired from the KOTOR remake). She can say she left of her own free will all she wants, but based on everything other employees have said about their experiences with her and the roller coaster that the story was before she left, and based on how she can't keep a job I think that speaks MUCH louder than her wide, spoiled, lying mouth.

Everyone who takes Maggs' words as truth are giving her their stamp of approval that exploiting LGBTQ for personal "bonus points" and lying and trying to steal all the work of other people as "okay" in their books

Sam Maggs is a liar and a fraud, and I refuse to believe she or any of her supporters say.

 

[viveks86]

I mean, I agree, she's not completely a girlboss, like I said. But for a large portion of her story arc, she does exhibit a lot of surface-level traits. The game essentially forces you to empathize with her midway through the story. Upon her introduction, she's emotionally restrained, capable, disciplined, strategic, strong, and seemingly in control. There just isn't a lot of room for growth in her character at that point, she's portrayed more as a villain. There's a disconnect between players and Abby for a reason. Where I agree with you is in acknowledging that she is emotionally complicated, has experienced loss, and undergoes a transformation.

Her introduction is her being scared of heights, impatiently running off alone during a blizzard like a dumbass, almost getting killed by a horde, literally being saved by Joel, while on a 5 year long revenge mission of the same guy. None of this suggests emotional restraint, discipline, strategy or strength. She literally picks up a gold club to improvise. Didn't even have a torture kit with her, if slow death was her plan all along. She can't even maintain proper relationships and understand boundaries post-breaking up. Seriously, she is a mess and stumbles her way through most of the story. She survives and gets away with her dumbassery due to sheer luck. Lev brings her only moments of sanity. Her only "strength" was her muscles. So yeah, if people aren't willing to look past physical appearance, then that's all they can see.

Empathy for Abby was designed to come from what happens to her world (her dad, her friends, the dog etc.) and from what an absolute mess she actually was. And that worked for those who are capable of empathizing with broken people. And it missed the mark for others.

 

[IllegalLemon]

Godammit, some of you people in here's are borderline insufferable sometimes, judging a game and its character, before even playing and outright refusing to give the main character a chance despite not even seeing enough of her to pass judgement.

Now, I'm willing to bet, that some people throwing harsh judgement at Shadows, haven't actually done a proper playthrough of the game before critiquing said game.

Yes, I did play Shadows, and no, I didn't pay a single dime. I simply signed into Ubisoft plus for the first time and took advantage of first time offer of trying it for free. It was a good game, visually and artistically stunning and one of Ubisoft's best in that regard.

But, mechanically, it left a lot to be desired. Loads Empty, useless map space, not many meaningful things to do, a combat system that was simplistic at its core and a 22 hour story that was only good during its last 5 hours. A good overall game, but left a lot to be desired on everything, but the visuals. And it wasn't flawless visually either. Like the Yōtei trailer above, it had some last gen looking rock and tree textures and had some janky looking animations.

This here doesn't look flawless (what game does), but honestly, we haven't seen enough of it to properly judge it either. So, why don't we wait for that gameplay deep dive first and then we pass judgement, how does that sound?

Spoiler: Spoiler

Jin's Story is Over. He fulfilled his purpose of driving away the Mongols, liberating his home island and becoming a legend. Let the man go and stop fixating on a virtual character because you like obsessing over Daisuke 2G's buttocks when entering hot springs. Give another character a chance.

 

[mckmas8808]

We've already been through this. Maggs is a fraud and was exposed a long time ago and we had a massive thread on it. She has also since been axed on every project and studio since.

Glad they got that heffa outta there!

 

[Insanemaelstrom]

More info

 

[viveks86]

More info

Hot springs confirmed!

 

[DeepEnigma]

Hot springs confirmed!

But will they be brave and show them cakes, or have them obscured by fog/steam/foliage angles?

 

[viveks86]

But will they be brave and show them cakes, or have them obscured by fog/steam/foliage angles?

Lol. I don't know if Sucker Punch has the balls. Will be pleasantly surprised if they do. I'm sure if it were ND, they'd do it just to make the detractors twist themselves into a pretzel to somehow still make it seem like blue haired new age feminism.

And then there is the issue of how the Japanese feel about it. Would it be an assault on "female modesty"? Will there be a towel-ed version for some countries? So many questions.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Lol. I don't know if Sucker Punch has the balls. Will be pleasantly surprised if they do. I'm sure if it were ND, they'd do it just to make the detractors twist themselves into a pretzel and somehow still make it seem like blue haired new age feminism.

And then there is the issue of how the Japanese feel about it. Would it be an assault on "female modesty"? Will there be a towel-ed version for some countries? So many questions.

These are the same people who go gaga over anime lolli's and have doorknob & butthole fetishes. They'll be fine.

 

[miller152]

But will they be brave and show them cakes, or have them obscured by fog/steam/foliage angles?

I bet Jin's ass will be bigger than hers lol.

But yeah, protagonist aside, I haven't heard anything so far that makes me want to buy the game. All signs seem to point to a move towards a more generic open-world experience. I bet there will be weapons and armor as loot. Animal companion straight out of Assassin's Creed, as well as the kill list.

They had such a good thing going with the first game, an open world game that wasn't overburdened with useless fluff. Seems like it's all gone.

 

[The Fartist]

These are the same people who go gaga over anime lolli's and have doorknob & butthole fetishes. They'll be fine.

 

[ElFenomeno]

We've already been through this. Maggs is a fraud and was exposed a long time ago and we had a massive thread on it. She has also since been axed on every project and studio since.

She was fired and that's why Spiderman 2 turned out so great, right? Yeah, I get it - she was sacked, didn't work on it for long time but still... Insomniac is filled with her kind.

 

[DeepEnigma]

She was fired and that's why Spiderman 2 turned out so great, right? Yeah, I get it - she was sacked, didn't work on it for long time but still... Insomniac is filled with her kind.

The point is, the C you next Tuesday was wrong and making shit up, regardless.

 

[Signalis]

The point is, the C you next Tuesday was wrong and making shit up, regardless.

Is CUNT not allowed on GAF?

 

[DeepEnigma]

Is CUNT not allowed on GAF?

It is, I was just being poetic.

 

[Wilhelm_85]

Godammit, some of you people in here's are borderline insufferable sometimes, judging a game and its character, before even playing and outright refusing to give the main character a chance despite not even seeing enough of her to pass judgement.

It's the deliberate choice of the actress and who she is and what she represents that makes the whole game suspect to me.

Not making any judgments at this time, but I have to admit that reveal took me from being "insta-buy no matter what" as a huge fan of the first game to "wait for impressions" status. Not even cautiously optimistic. I'm expecting the worst, but have a slimmer of hope that it turns out to be something awesome.

 

[cormack12]

This will be excellent and I will there day one

 

[SlimySnake]

You just sound like a total moron. You're just so straight that you don't even play video games as a women due to your massive heterosexuality.

I think you're too dumb to see just what a massive cope and overcompensation every post you make is. And, you have no idea what video games I do or don't play - or whether they are 'DEI kinds of games' - that's a stab in the dark that completely missed. The only thing you know is that I think you sound ludicrous, and that you really, really want to see more man ass in your video games.

You're a dinosaur, kid. It's not 2021 anymore. The stupid anti-woke DEI boogeyman is dead and buried. You just sound like an in denial, completely closeted weirdo who is screaming at the clouds.

Variety asked the directors why they went with a female character and they gave a generic non-answer

Some accused the game of being "woke" when Atsu was revealed as the main character. Why was a female protagonist the right choice for this story?

Connell: We knew we had all these fans who love "Tsushima." We want to carry all of those fans forward into an exciting new adventure. We're creatives. We like to make new things. We like to make exciting, new pieces of art and move people in new ways. We want to make a sequel that's fresh but familiar.

Nate and I are pretty enamored with making origin stories, and certainly one that we could find a way to make them feel like a bit of an underdog in this landscape. This is a pretty dangerous landscape, which positions her to be an excellent person for that. This is somebody that people would not expect to be so powerful, yet here she is on this romp of a vengeance quest, which is probably pretty unexpected for some people.

Over time, she'll get this name of The Onryō, because this Japanese folk legend is an unkillable, vengeance-seeking ghost. And that's just an awesome fit. Onryō are typically stories of vengeance from females. So that seems like a really nice package for this.

It's clear that the main reason for having a female lead was simply to have a female lead for woke reasons. These two are the creative directors of the game and couldnt tell us why they decided on their protagonist.

Youre actually right.

Why would I want to play as a female or lesbian? I'm a straight guy who wants to beat games playing a male character. In games that let you create a character, I make a male character. Why would I care about staring at Erika Isshi or a pixelated Stellar Blade ass? Only times I choose female is Diablo for the character skills where the class can be matched up to male/female.

It's ok if you think I'm cringey because end of the day a lot of DEI/LBTQ kinds of games and movies are bombing big past bunch of years. So it shows the general public doesnt want that either. Thats life. Make a good product with what consumers want and you'll get the sales. What you dont like is a lot of these projects doing lousy, which makes you sad.

And just like what you said in your post, you got gaming preferences too like having all protags being lesbian. That's fine. But it'll never happen no matter how much you want it:

You know whats funny? The entire reason for having more female representation in games is to attract more women. Which means someone somewhere, be it a study or a survey or anita sarkiseen, told them that women prefer to play as women. And thats fine. Thats normal. People relate to what they know. But these posters calling you a moron cant apply that very same logic to you simply stating your preference to play as a man. It's fucking hilarious how obtuse one has to be to not make that connection.

I actually dont mind playing as women. As long as the story is well told like HZD, im ok with it. i even enjoyed HFW which was actually not as good as the first. But I can understand why some men would feel a different way. Simply because i believe their premise that women are not playing video games because they lack representation. We are now at a point where 5 of Sony's major first party games feature female leads.

- Aloy
- Ellie
- Selene
- Whatever this girl's name is
- Fucking Rivet in a game called Ratchet
- The baldy in Intergallactica

You've Peter Parker and Kratos who has been retired and wont be getting a sequel. Joel was killed off. Jin was retired. Kratos was emasculated. And all of that would be ok if Sony studios didnt make their name on making characters for men. Sad dads like Joel and Kratos. uncharted 4 and Days Gone were literally about fixing your relationship with your wife. They were aimed at men. And now they have abondoned their core audience to go chase some women who have zero interest in our games and would rather spend $2000 on tickets to Taylor Swift's eras tour, or hundreds of dollars on shoes and makeup every week. They dont even go watch movies anymore. They watch one female focused movie of the year like barbie and then bail out for the rest of the year like those CoD players. Sony first party pandering to these people is so insane to me.

 

[Gudji]

But will they be brave and show them cakes, or have them obscured by fog/steam/foliage angles?

 

[Mibu no ookami]

It's the deliberate choice of the actress and who she is and what she represents that makes the whole game suspect to me.

Not making any judgments at this time, but I have to admit that reveal took me from being "insta-buy no matter what" as a huge fan of the first game to "wait for impressions" status. Not even cautiously optimistic. I'm expecting the worst, but have a slimmer of hope that it turns out to be something awesome.

What are your 5 favorite movies?

 

[Aenima]

But will they be brave and show them cakes, or have them obscured by fog/steam/foliage angles?

The game rating didnt had nothing related to nudity, so if they still have hotsprings, most likelly they gona use camera angles that dosent really show anything.

 

[DeepEnigma]

The game rating didnt had nothing related to nudity, so if they still have hotsprings, most likelly they gona use camera angles that dosent really show anything.