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[A Fish Aficionado]

Considering some of the more extreme European parties, Varoufakis was tame.

 

[Rektash]

It takes two sides to negotiate successfully, and so far from my following of the situation Greece has moved ever closer to the creditors' demands while the creditors have not budged.

The amount of moving on either side has been laughable considering how far apart the positions are. Both parties are to blame for this.

Negotiate doesn't mean accept any deal given to you, and if the other side won't budge you can only do so much. At least this guy played a hand that may force them to budge, as unconventional as it may be (or not, we'll see on Tuesday).

What makes you think he even had to play that game though? We'll never know because Varoufakis was more concerned with polemics than negotiating a deal.

 

[Uzzy]

Because Syriza, Tsipras, and Varoufakis would all still prefer to remain inside the Euro than out of it if offered a sufficiently good deal. They have done everything in their power to try and improve their negotiating strength and Varoufakis has done his work there well, but this is the 11th hour. The emergency meeting on the 7th is the last stand - either Greece gets a good enough offer, or they default and exit the Euro. There's no more referendums or public statements or agitprop, and the bargaining positions are not able to move much further. Tsipras isn't looking for a firebrand any more, he needs a negotiator, and Varoufakis, for all his talents, is not that.

So basically, he's the hero Greece deserves, but not the one they need right now.

 

[jorma]

A win for Greece if their concession is just to have Varoufakis step aside before the real talks begin.

I think that the troika overplayed their collective hands and now that Syriza has a confirmed mandate to default Greece their only choice is to get some of their money back in a no-austerity deal or have none of it back.

I guess we'll see what happens but from where i stand it looks like the Greek side did an excellent job so far. They are hardly incompetent - especially when you compare them to previous administrations whose negotiating tactics consisted of signing whatever deal the troika put in front of them.

 

[Rhysser]

The amount of moving on either side has been laughable considering how far apart the positions are. Both parties are to blame for this.

I don't think it's about blame, nor do I care to blame anyone. It's just two sides disagreeing, Both of them have good reasons to do so. I know though that Greece has moved several times, and the creditors moved 0 times, at least based on how the deals were reported in the news (since I wasn't in the room).

What makes you think he even had to play that game though? We'll never know because Varoufakis was more concerned with polemics than negotiating a deal.

See above. If your negotiating partner moves 0 times, what can you do? What does he have to gain by being petty or polemic for no reason? I highly doubt that's what motivated him. For example, I doubt he or Tsirpas would reject a reasonable deal just to be uh... mean to Merkel or whatever.

To put it another way, up until now the creditors have been negotiating from a position of being absolutely in the right, convinced that Greece basically has no hand to play and no leverage, and must simply accept the rules laid out. This makes sense both because Greece is tiny and because the rules come from prior agreements. Varoufakis made a play that showed them that Greece does have cards to play, even if those cards are essentially sheer desperation. He showed them that maybe Greece is capable of doing something unexpected and impactful, in hopes that it moves them from their comfortable "Take it or leave it" position to a real negotiation. Whether his play works remains to be seen.

 

[Windom Earle]

Considering some of the more extreme European parties, Varoufakis was tame.

He is just a complete asshole and couldn't keep his promises.

"Oh, if the vote says yes I'm gonna resign"

Now the vote is no and he still resigns. Such backbone and integrity.

And of course suddenly he listens to the opinion of the EU and resigns because of them. Surrre.
Can't believe some of you left wing tools call him a hero. :lol

 

[oti]

He is just a complete asshole and couldn't keep his promises.

"Oh, if the vote says yes I'm gonna resign"

Now the vote is no and he still resigns. Such backbone and integrity.

And of course suddenly he listens to the opinion of the EU and resigns because of them. Surrre.
Can't believe some of you left wing tools call him a hero. :lol

Tell us how you really feel.

 

[Windom Earle]

Tell us how you really feel.

I will probably get banned for stating my opinion, but I don't give a fuck.

 

[nelsonroyale]

Varoufakis and Tsipras are frauds/criminals. These amateurs should have never received the reigns over a country.

All politicians are amateur realworld descision makers...By what metric do you judge them less qualified than their peers?

Give your opinion then. You state that Varoufakis is a cop out. Fair, justify your opinion. You aren't going to be a cop out as well?

 

[A Fish Aficionado]

He is just a complete asshole and couldn't keep his promises.

"Oh, if the vote says yes I'm gonna resign"

Now the vote is no and he still resigns. Such backbone and integrity.

And of course suddenly he listens to the opinion of the EU and resigns because of them. Surrre.
Can't believe some of you left wing tools call him a hero. :lol

He was never a politician and look beyond his role as shake the boat guy/hyperbolic rhetoric to his academic side.

Like I said before, look at the post-Keynesian post-2008, economists. L Randall Wray, Stephanie Kelton, Steve Keen, William Black et al.

The ECB sure has a more classical economist view than say the US Fed.

I think it's a blunt way to have that MMT approach break to the mainstream.

 

[Syriel]

*Tax income

PIB = GDP

Basically, Greece collects more money in taxes that the average in the EU

But those Greece guys are so lazy and corrupt.

Having a high percentage of GDP reliant on income tax isn't necessarily a good thing.

Diversified sources making up the GDP are better.

Decades is an exaggeration. Economies normally grow quite quickly on exiting a recession because there's a lot of slack capital and labour. Providing there are no serious fucks-ups during the actual exit process, if Greece kept 3% yearly growth rate after exiting recession it would have recovered in approximately a decade, rather than decades.

Still, almost 20 years (from 2007) of no improvement in living standards is almost unparalleled in the modern era.

Real wages in the US haven't really increased since the crisis hit in 2007. In fact, real wages here have been flat for just over 40 years.

I'm from Finland, part of EU and Euro. In theory I would support a country named "Europe" or "European Union". In practice, I don't trust the current EU members enough to hand over the control. We are a tiny country in comparison to Germany, France and UK. We would simply be forgotten and our special needs ignored. The only benefit (for us) that I can see is a united military force.

I think "European Union" as a country is possible, I clearly see that is where things have been headed. But I think that is still DECADES away. I hope the crisis in Greece won't unravel things. While the benefits of Euro for smaller countries is questionable, I think EU in general has provided a lot of benefits. For EU to be a country, people of Europe need to see themselves as Europeans first, citizens of their country second.

Something like this will either start pushing the EU towards a tighter union (think USoE) or else push everyone away, focusing on their own countries even more.

"The first thing we must do is take away the keys to his office. We have to restore stability to the system, with or without the help of the ECB. We have the capacity to print €20 notes," said one."

Yep, totally trustworthy government. Just printing more out of thin air will help everyone. Everybody will be a thrilled giving them more money for their threats.

Printing unauthorized euro dollars wouldn't go over well for anyone.

If they're issuing their own Euro IOUs, they are de facto printing Euros.

When CA issues IOUs it wasn't printing de facto dollars. It was just that. IOUs.

Could someone please explain how these IOUs would work? Varoufakis just states things here and there and it's rather hard to follow

Since he compared them to the CA situation, CA just issued notices to everyone when sending payment.

Basically it really was an IOU. CA owes you $xx.xx which will be paid in X months time.

Do all the countries in the Eurozone borrow the same amount of money? I'm trying to understand why Germany is doing well and Greece isn't. Does Germany have some rare natural resources? How are Spain, Italy and the rest of the countries doing and will they run into a similar problem in the future ?

Thanks.

1) Greece is TINY in terms of population (the entirety of Greece would fit in two large US cities).
2) Greece doesn't have a lot of industry. It is mostly agriculture and tourism.
3) Germany has a lot more people.
4) Germany has industry.
5) Greece imports more than it exports.
6) Germany exports more than it imports.

Good. USE would be a terrible idea.

USoE would be an instant superpower that would likely be just as strong as America, economically, militarily and politically. It would be history in the making.

So what are the possible effects of Greece leaving the Euro?

Short term? Cheaper tourism for people outside Greece. Cheaper Greek goods. Devalued currency for the Greeks.

Long term? Better control of the economy for the Greek government.

Yes. Leaving Greece in a situation where it has to run digital IOUs would be a genuine moral evil. Even if they leave, giving them the few months support they need to transition should be an absolute basic minimum and I would be ashamed of Europe and my European identity if that did not happen.

Eh, IOUs wouldn't be a "moral evil." It happened in CA. It wasn't evil. It just was.

U.S. simply did not go down to the austerity route comparative to most European countries. Obama has run a deficit larger than GDP growth every year since he has come into office. You can argue about the scale of the fiscal injection and whether it should have been larger, but it is factually untrue to say that the U.S. engaged in austerity spending - it's the main reason the American economy is so much more robust than the European one right now.

The recession and austerity hit different areas of the US differently. Some areas increased spending. Others rolled it back.

One main difference though is that the US determined that states can't go bankrupt. Cities can, but states are on the hook. That helped with some of the bond markets.

The biggest loss to the average person in the US was housing. MANY people lost their homes due to not being able to pay for them and the sheer number of bank owned homes caused the housing market to tank across the US.

The size of the US also means the extremes are greater. The US has many people who are better off than the average Greek. The US has many people who are worse off than the average Greek.

The most important thing to note though, is as mentioned earlier, real wages in the US haven't changed. So as the "recovery" has happened and things have gotten more expensive, wages have not gone up.

The housing crash was kind of a "reset," but if you couldn't get in when the "reset" happened (because you lost all your savings), it's even harder to get in now.

For argument sake, can Greece lose land as a result of them not paying their debts?

No.

Well Russia sold Alaska to the USA for starters.

Just waiting for Russia to conduct a review of that decision.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1073048

Greece doesn't have a bunch of spare land to give away and much of what it does have was won in wars in the 19th and 20th centuries. It would be political suicide to try selling bits of the country to neighbours.

NATO already has bases in Greece and I doubt there is anyone willing to do some kind of "money for bases" type exchange, at least not for the kind of money they would need to get them out of the hole they're in.

There are plenty of uninhabited islands in the Aegean. Could always sell those off to some rich billionaires as vacation spots.

You're welcome.

My mum and I are discussing buying a place on one of the islands. We should be doing that before they leave EZ right?

If Greece is going to leave the euro and go to its own currency, probably best to do it after. You'd have more buying power.

Governments need to be able to default

If that becomes an expectation then no government would ever get a reasonable loan.

Governments should plan on never defaulting, though in order to do that they have to control their own currency.

 

[cripterion]

battered wife syndrome or why does Greece still want to be part of that gang?

Cause they obviously benefited from it?

 

[m_dorian]

He is just a complete asshole and couldn't keep his promises.

"Oh, if the vote says yes I'm gonna resign"

Now the vote is no and he still resigns. Such backbone and integrity.

And of course suddenly he listens to the opinion of the EU and resigns because of them. Surrre.
Can't believe some of you left wing tools call him a hero. :lol

He definitely made mistakes. Small ones and big ones. I never liked his overexposure to the media, he should do more work less talk. Also his tactics were nt that great, he could do better.
Now, i am an almost left wing supporter that voted NO. Is that really all you need to know, to call me -or anyone else like me- a tool?

 

[Rektash]

See above. If your negotiating partner moves 0 times, what can you do? What does he have to gain by being petty or polemic for no reason? I highly doubt that's what motivated him. For example, I doubt he or Tsirpas would reject a reasonable deal just to be uh... mean to Merkel or whatever.

You are assuming that there wasn't any way to negotiate a deal but we don't actually know that to be true. That is nothing but conjecture. Varofakis was too busy making headlines, pissing off his negotiation partners. What I am saying is that he blew a chance to find a deal by doing that.

To put it another way, up until now the creditors have been negotiating from a position of being absolutely in the right, convinced that Greece basically has no hand to play and no leverage, and must simply accept the rules laid out. This makes sense both because Greece is tiny and because the rules come from prior agreements. Varoufakis made a play that showed them that Greece does have cards to play, even if those cards are essentially sheer desperation. He showed them that maybe Greece is capable of doing something unexpected and impactful, in hopes that it moves them from their comfortable "Take it or leave it" position to a real negotiation. Whether his play works remains to be seen.

Again, what you are describing is a terrible game that he played. You don't play with the future of your country like that, especially when the best possible outcome isn't more than some diffuse better position to negotiate(we don't even know if that is true at all, which makes this another gamble in itself).

 

[Condom]

Motherfuckers, still hope Varoufakis wanted this himself and wasn't forced. He was miles apart from the clowns in the Eurogroup when it came to intelligence and knowledge.

For those thinking his drama was a bad play, that is obviously seen from the point of technocrats. Socialists should fight back like a lion to achieve anything in this world since everything is fundamentally backwards in our eyes.
He is a hero for standing up to the capitalists in Brussels.

 

[KHlover]

Motherfuckers, still hope Varoufakis wanted this himself and wasn't forced. He was miles apart from the clowns in the Eurogroup when it came to intelligence and knowledge.

For those thinking his drama was a bad play, that is obviously seen from the point of technocrats. Socialists should fight back like a lion to achieve anything in this world since everything is fundamentally backwards in our eyes.
He is a hero for standing up to the capitalists in Brussels.

They were miles apart alright

 

[Rektash]

For those thinking his drama was a bad play, that is obviously seen from the point of technocrats. Socialists should fight back like a lion to achieve anything in this world since everything is fundamentally backwards in our eyes.
He is a hero for standing up to the capitalists in Brussels.

Or maybe, just maybe, people have more differentiated opinions about the stuff that has been going on. But hey, we need clear split camps that paint everything in purely white or black. Makes it easier to call people out and put blame on them right?

 

[Rhysser]

You are assuming that there wasn't any way to negotiate a deal but we don't actually know that to be true. That is nothing but conjecture. Varofakis was too busy making headlines, pissing off his negotiation partners. What I am saying is that he blew a chance to find a deal by doing that.

I think my conjecture is far more reasonable than the alternative. He had no reason to go in there to piss people off. I also think it's a generally misguided notion and uninteresting to think that this is all the result of peoples' personal temperaments. What probably happened is Greece went in there as nice as possible to try to get a good deal, they got hard NOs over and over because, well, why SHOULD Germany pay the bills exactly? And the two sides got progressively frustrated and broke talks.

If European creditors wanted to allow for movement they would have given some sign, but repeatedly saying hard NOs and putting out what is essentially a MORAL argument against Greece, and then trying to interfere in Greece's referendum, indicates that my conjecture is probably correct.

Again, what you are describing is a terrible game that he played. You don't play with the future of your country like that, especially when the best possible outcome isn't more than some diffuse better position to negotiate(we don't even know if that is true at all, which makes this another gamble in itself).

I don't consider it playing. I consider it fighting for its future, and often times you have to risk to secure a better future. I'm not sure what you think will happen to Greece, but the answer is basically, nothing in the long-term. Short term both choices were bad, except one choice was bad only for Greece. Greece opted to take the choice that was bad for both them AND Europe in hopes that Europe would offer them a better one.

It is absolutely imperative that Greece stays stable and Western powers will make sure of that, to the chagrin of their taxpayers, whether Greece stays with the Euro or not.

 

[Reuenthal]

From what I am watching and reading from their statements and actions, Syriza are willing to accept a bad deal if it includes a debt haircut. Which was the reason for the talks breaking down previously.

My economic views are more center right wing than left wing but I definitely find a debt haircut the right thing here from a left, centrist and right wing perspective. The program isn't viable whatsoever without it. Your perspective and ideology does not matter, it is simply impossible. Hence the IMF conclusions. It is just politically unacceptable to some circles, or to those who are satisfied by only extremely punishing Greece, it is just unacceptable on leaving a tiny hope by any compromise.

So I don't really see any point for the Greek side to accept a deal without a solution to the debt problem. It will at best just push the problems later.

 

[Condom]

Or maybe, just maybe, people have more differentiated opinions about the stuff that has been going on. But hey, we need clear split camps that paint everything in purely white or black. Makes it easier to call people out and put blame on them right?

It is white and black my dear friend. It's ideology vs ideology.

The right uses just as much drama but like always in history the winners don't get criticized. They get congratulated.

 

[Machspeed007]

From what I am watching and reading from their statements and actions, Syriza are willing to accept a bad deal if it includes a debt haircut. Which was the reason for the talks breaking down previously.

My economical views are more center right wing than left wing but I definitely find a debt haircut the right thing here from a left, centrist and right wing perspective. The program isn't viable whatsoever without it. Your perspective and ideology does not matter, it is simply impossible. Hence the IMF conclusions. It is just politically unacceptable to some circles, or to those who are satisfied by only extremely punishing Greece, it is just unacceptable on leaving a tiny hope by any compromise.

Sure, but only if other countries of the EU will also get debt haircuts, proportionally.

 

[Rektash]

It is white and black my dear friend. It's ideology vs ideology.

The right uses just as much drama but like always in history the winners don't get criticized. They get congratulated.

Bullshit. There is much more to the this conflict than that. Now if you choose to reduce this conflict to that, that is a personal choice of yours but it doesn't reflect reality in the slightest.

 

[travisbickle]

Bullshit. There is much more to the this conflict than that. Now if you choose to reduce this conflict to that, that is a personal choice of yours but it doesn't reflect reality in the slightest.

Which reality? The capitalist one?

 

[Condom]

Bullshit. There is much more to the this conflict than that. Now if you choose to reduce this conflict to that, that is a personal choice of yours but it doesn't reflect reality in the slightest.

Fair enough, I do have personal interest in seeing it that way.

 

[PdotMichael]

Cause they obviously benefited from it?

They did?

Not based on the comments here. I bet they all knew that Greece would fail in 2001

 

[Rektash]

Which reality? The capitalist one?

A reality that consists of more than two opinions on any given conflict. You know, the reality we live in.

 

[PJV3]

Hopefully the EU offer something that will actually work and not reduce Greece to a basket case for generations.

 

[Ted Striker]

They did?

Not based on the comments here. I bet they all knew that Greece would fail in 2001

Wrong, few were warning about a collapse back then, everyone else was riding the Euro bandwagon.

 

[oti]

I read some comments on bild.de but you shouldn't.

 

[Rektash]

I read some comments on bild.de but you shouldn't.

Well, it's Bild, what do you expect? The outlet has been the laughing stock of intellectuals throughout germany since it came to existence - and for a very good reasons.

 

[Reuenthal]

Well, it's Bild, what do you expect? The outlet has been the laughing stock of intellectuals throughout germany since it existed - and for a very good reasons.

But isn't it the most popular newspaper in Germany with the most sales?

 

[Rektash]

But isn't it the most popular newspaper in Germany with the most sales?

It is! That doesn't change the fact that it is considered garbage by anyone with half a brain. It is considered fodder for the uneducated.

 

[oti]

Well, it's Bild, what do you expect? The outlet has been the laughing stock of intellectuals throughout germany since it came to existence - and for a very good reasons.

I know, that's why I went there to read the comments. One needs to know what the scum thinks to put things in perspective.

Has the AFD made a statement yet? That should be just as "fun".

 

[Theonik]

But isn't it the most popular newspaper in Germany with the most sales?

So is The Sun in the UK.

 

[EloKa]

But isn't it the most popular newspaper in Germany with the most sales?

also it is banned on most sites / boards than tend to use at least some real facts or try to have a serious discussion.

Don't believe a single word that is printed in it. Also more importantly: don't buy it.
It's the german FoxNews / the Sun (don't know about semi-racist / hater media from other countries).

 

[Reuenthal]

also it is banned on most sites / boards than tend to use at least some real facts or try to have a serious discussion.

Don't believe a single word that is printed in it. Also more importantly: don't buy it.
It's the german FoxNews / the Sun (don't know about semi-racist / hater media from other countries).

It is! That doesn't change the fact that it is considered garbage by anyone with half a brain. It is considered fodder for the uneducated.

So is The Sun in the UK.

My point is that it might be a shit newspaper but its position as the most popular newspaper allows it to influence people and perceptions and poisons smart solutions to problems by spreading garbage.

As for the Sun, people are often whining about the influence of the Sun and Daily Mail in British politics.

 

[PJV3]

My point is that it might be a shit newspaper but its position as the most popular newspaper allows it to influence people and perceptions and poisons smart solutions to problems by spreading garbage.

As for the Sun, people are often whining about the influence of the Sun and Daily Mail in British politics.

The Daily Mail is just depressing, people who buy it on holidays abroad should be refused re entry to the UK.

 

[EloKa]

My point is that it might be a shit newspaper but its position as the most popular newspaper allows it to influence people and perceptions and poisons smart solutions to problems by spreading garbage.

As for the Sun, people are often whining about the influence of the Sun and Daily Mail in British politics.

Well, the average person is definately uninformed and biased. Now you have those semi racist media channels that supports those biased opinions and try to put some more poison in so all those uninformed guys can sit in their pubs and say "ha! I KNEW IT!!". Easy business.

The typical citizen might follow those hate campaigns (like the "lazy greeks!!!" story atm) but there are also enough people who boycott this stuff and you should be able to realize soon if you talk to someone who's using facts or just made up crap.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Real wages in the US haven't really increased since the crisis hit in 2007. In fact, real wages here have been flat for just over 40 years.

True, but Greece is more severe than that. Real wages haven't stagnated, they have plummeted. We're talking about a decade to be as "good" as the United States - as good as an economy which has stagnated at the labour level for the past four decades. That's the unprecedented element.

When CA issues IOUs it wasn't printing de facto dollars. It was just that. IOUs.

This is a different situation, though. With the greatest respect to Tsipras and his government, if they issue Euro IOUs, they will not be paying them back. California's IOUs were essentially a widespread form of public bond which had transaction capacity. Greece's IOUs would be pretend Euros, because there is no credible interest rate that could be attached to them.

Eh, IOUs wouldn't be a "moral evil." It happened in CA. It wasn't evil. It just was.

You misunderstand. I'm not saying the IOUs would be a bad idea - on the contrary, they'd be the best possible Greece could do if such a situation would come to pass. However, as discussed in the last thread, Greece's capacity to produce a new physical currency (or any physical form of these IOUs) is severely limited. They would largely be a digital phenomenon (I was using "printing" only very loosely earlier, as I imagine only a fraction of them feasibly could be printed). Greece does not have the kind of technological structure that allows for a digital currency to replace a physical ones without harms. For the duration of the IOU period, it would be very, very difficult to make any kind of transaction as a heavily cash-based society goes cashless overnight. People would be unable to buy food and basic goods in many cases. This would be the moral evil - allowing this to happen because the Eurozone is too proud/spiteful to lend Greece some Euros for the purpose of a graceful exit only.

The recession and austerity hit different areas of the US differently. Some areas increased spending. Others rolled it back.

One main difference though is that the US determined that states can't go bankrupt. Cities can, but states are on the hook. That helped with some of the bond markets.

The biggest loss to the average person in the US was housing. MANY people lost their homes due to not being able to pay for them and the sheer number of bank owned homes caused the housing market to tank across the US.

The size of the US also means the extremes are greater. The US has many people who are better off than the average Greek. The US has many people who are worse off than the average Greek.

The most important thing to note though, is as mentioned earlier, real wages in the US haven't changed. So as the "recovery" has happened and things have gotten more expensive, wages have not gone up.

The housing crash was kind of a "reset," but if you couldn't get in when the "reset" happened (because you lost all your savings), it's even harder to get in now.

Yes, this is all true. I suppose it would have been more accurate to say that the United States has not experienced austerity at a federal level (and let us all hope it never does).

If that becomes an expectation then no government would ever get a reasonable loan.

Governments should plan on never defaulting, though in order to do that they have to control their own currency.

Governments shouldn't plan on defaulting, but they should always have the capacity to default because plans don't always go as expected. People still make investments even though they are aware that it may not bear returns, they just demand higher interest rates. Similarly, private investors will continue to purchase bonds even though they are aware governments might default, they just demand higher interest. Personally, if I were an investor, the first thing I would do in the aftermath of a Greek default would be a large scale purchase of Greek bonds, because a debtless government running a primary surplus and in control of their own currency seems like a secure place to me.

 

[Theonik]

My point is that it might be a shit newspaper but its position as the most popular newspaper allows it to influence people and perceptions and poisons smart solutions to problems by spreading garbage.

As for the Sun, people are often whining about the influence of the Sun and Daily Mail in British politics.

I actually just wanted a platform to post this:

If there is no Greek buttocks in this issue I am complaining to the trade commission for false advertising.

 

[oti]

I looked at the campaign today that Germany's tabloid BILD - owned by Axel-Springer and run by Kai Diekmann - is running against Greece. (...)
I am worried (...) about the utter contempt BILD is expressing not just for a government or a political position, but for the entirety of the Greek people by mocking them, by collectively and pejoratively addressing them as "Pleite-Griechen" or by holding a mock-referendum in Germany as BILD's 'answer' to the desperate - and potentially dangerous - situation in Greece.
I never thought I would witness a German news organisation being that dishonourable and reckless in face of another nation's suffering.

https://m.facebook.com/wolfgang.blau/posts/10153442736810960?pnref=story

And here's some satire.

 

[YourMaster]

Wrong, few were warning about a collapse back then, everyone else was riding the Euro bandwagon.

Not true, opinions were split back than as well. Italy and Spain were seen as the main potential problems though, and also many people opposed the Euro more for sentimental reasons than for practical reasons.
It is no coincidence that the euro was introduced without a referendum in most countries, and rejected in most of the countries with a referendum.

That being said, I do agree that the people did not care nearly enough and basically let this happen. All of us, Greeks included, have paid a price for our political apathy, but we haven't learned from our mistakes at all.
I'm happy the Greeks made the right decision though, no good would have come from the presented deal, not for them and not for the rest of us.

 

[Wiktor]

True, but Greece is more severe than that. Real wages haven't stagnated, they have plummeted. We're talking about a decade to be as "good" as the United States - as good as an economy which has stagnated at the labour level for the past four decades. That's the unprecedented element.
.

To be honest though, Greeks wages were probably too high. No matter how everyhing ends up there's just no way they will be able to get back to their pre-crisis quality of life in the next decade or two.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

What are they doing now? Do they expect the EU to come up with a new deal or are they accepting the Grexit?

 

[Wiktor]

What are they doing now? Do they expect the EU to come up with a new deal or are they accepting the Grexit?

The official line is that Greek goverment is supposed to propose a new deal and then EU will debate whether to accept it or not.

 

[Undead]

What happens with having no provision for an exit from the Eurozone?
Does that make it impossible to kick Greece out if they don't want to leave the Euro behind?

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

The official line is that Greek goverment is supposed to propose a new deal and then EU will debate whether to accept it or not.

Ok, so basically what they've been doing for months now.
Do we know how the austerity measures the EU wanted Greece to take compare to the ones other EU countries took?
I think thats pretty much the line in the sand, EU can't go easier on Greece than on Portugal and all the other countries.

 

[Wiktor]

What happens with having no provision for an exit from the Eurozone?
Does that make it impossible to kick Greece out if they don't want to leave the Euro behind?

Well.if EU would cut the money of from Greece then Greece would pretty much have to drop Euro just to start printing their own money. But that won't happen.

 

[Polk]

What happens with having no provision for an exit from the Eurozone?
Does that make it impossible to kick Greece out if they don't want to leave the Euro behind?

If EU stops ELA and Greece open banks they will have to use other currency they can print.

 

[PJV3]

Ok, so basically what they've been doing for months now.
Do we know how the austerity measures the EU wanted Greece to take compare to the ones other EU countries took?
I think thats pretty much the line in the sand, EU can't go easier on Greece than on Portugal and all the other countries.

I would hope the line in the sand is something that actually works, debt relief or deferring payments.