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[Deleted member 231381]

So who will pick up the slack? Communists or Golden Dawn?

Some of the Greeks in this thread will want to correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the most likely prospect is actually Syriza returning having shed the far left, followed by New Democracy.

 

[Pennywise]

East Germans after unification were also more racist towards foreigners.

Which isn't too suprising.

 

[KingSnake]

Some of the Greeks in this thread will want to correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the most likely prospect is actually Syriza returning having shed the far left, followed by New Democracy.

So practically Syriza will become the new social-democrats.

I don't think that Germany ever intended to really deny a debt relief. They just want to sweep the issue under the rug for now to not piss off their electorate.

Let's not forget that this debt relief issue, at the moment, is entirely political and has nothing to do with the economic situation in Greece. The debts we are talking about don't have to be paid back before 2022 anyway. They have nothing to do with why the Greece economy collapsed or why it doesn't get back on its feet. The Greek government wants to have it right now as a political trophy. Conversely, the creditors don't want to tell everyone that much of the money is gone and that they knew it all along.

Greece already got a de-fact debt relief of, AFAIK, over 100 billion euros in 2012, and it didn't magically kickstart their economy.

First IMF and then even Schäuble admitted that the current debt is not sustainable without a further debt relief. The debt relief in 2012 didn't alter the reimbursement schedule, which is in fact the main issue, because even a budgetary surplus currently dissipates in the debt payments. The new loans are just rolled into the paying the old loans. Actually combined with the GDP drop it made the situation worse now. One can argue that the 2012 debt relief was practically a cosmetic adjustment to make the situation look less shit.

And I don't know about 2022, Greece has 3 hefty payment deadlines in the next month.

A debt relief now needs to be including also a rescheduling of the repayments to make place for some breathing.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

So practically Syriza will become the new social-democrats.

You either lose a socialist, or live long enough to see yourself become the PASOK.

 

[Xando]

I don't think that Germany ever intended to really deny a debt relief. They just want to sweep the issue under the rug for now to not piss off their electorate.

Let's not forget that this debt relief issue, at the moment, is entirely political and has nothing to do with the economic situation in Greece. The debts we are talking about don't have to be paid back before 2022 anyway. They have nothing to do with why the Greece economy collapsed or why it doesn't get back on its feet. The Greek government wants to have it right now as a political trophy. Conversely, the creditors don't want to tell everyone that much of the money is gone and that they knew it all along.

Greece already got a de-fact debt relief of, AFAIK, over 100 billion euros in 2012, and it didn't magically kickstart their economy.

Well as you said the problem is Greece economy has gone to shit so bad in the last years a debt relief won't do much other than delay default for another 3-5 years. That's why i'm thinking debt relief + transfer union is the only way if you want to keep Greece in the Euro. Everything else is just delaying the default.

Of course getting this through northern parliaments is a whole other problem.

 

[sublimit]

According to the Greek newspaper, Kathimerini, Tsipras is not expecting his government to last beyond the end of August.

Link?

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Link?

Tweet in English by Niki Kitsantonis (reporter for Kathimerini) here: https://twitter.com/NikiKitsantonis/status/619811955323334656 If you can read Greek there's more.

 

[sublimit]

Tweet in English by Niki Kitsantonis (reporter for Kathimerini) here: https://twitter.com/NikiKitsantonis/status/619811955323334656 If you can read Greek there's more.

This is very different from what you said before.

 

[ElTorro]

And I don't know about 2022, Greece has 3 hefty payment deadlines in the next month.

All upcoming payments in the next weeks, months, and years are payments for government bond interests, ECB bonds, and to the IMF. As far as I understand, cuts for these are not possible, at least not for bond interests.

Payments for loans made by the Eurozone states in the context of the bailout programs are not due until 2020 for the first and 2023 for the second bailout program. (Had to look it up, 2022 was incorrect.) And interest rates are low.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

This is very different from what you said before.

That's because it's a slightly different source.

 

[sublimit]

That's because it's a slightly different source.

Then you should be careful and double check your sources in order to not spread lies and misinformation.Tsipras never said what you posted before.

And btw it's well known that kathemerini has been anti-syriza for a while now.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Then you should be careful and double check your sources in order to not spread lies and misinformation.Tsipras never said what you posted before.

And btw it's well known that kathemerini has been anti-syriza for a while now.

I'm just repeating what Kathimerini has said. Yes, they may be anti-Syriza, but this thread is hardly useful if it only reports pro-Syriza news. The majority of the posters in this thread (myself included) are pro-Syriza, it hardly helps to reinforce the echo chamber.

 

[Machspeed007]

Noonan suggests it would help rebuild trust if Greek parliament started voting reforms over next couple of weeks. #Greece

Wiebes (Netherlands): We're discussing proposal from Greek gov't that was fiercely rejected a week ago. That's a serious concern. #Greece

EU Commission Vice-President Dombrovskis: Clearly making progress. Greek proposal pretty much along lines of institutions' plan.

 

[norinrad]

Golden Dawn and EU exit inbound

Do they hold that much power and influence over the Greek people?

 

[Tugatrix]

Do they hold that much power and influence over the Greek people?

desperate people have nothing to loose, they will turn to golden dawn. Tsipras move makes no goddamn sense what on earth happen

 

[ElTorro]

Golden Dawn and EU exit inbound

I trust that the majority of Greeks is reasonable enough to not think that a party with this flag here would or could solve their issues.

Unless they think that a Blitzkrieg against Turkey would be a possible way out of this.

 

[sublimit]

I'm just repeating what Kathimerini has said. Yes, they may be anti-Syriza, but this thread is hardly useful if it only reports pro-Syriza news. The majority of the posters in this thread (myself included) are pro-Syriza, it hardly helps to reinforce the echo chamber.

Posting pro or anti syriza "information" is irrelevant when what you are actually posting are lies.

 

[KingSnake]

All upcoming payments in the next weeks, months, and years are payments for government bond interests, ECB bonds, and to the IMF. As far as I understand, cuts for these are not possible, at least not for bond interests.

Payments for loans made by the Eurozone states in the context of the bailout programs are not due until 2020 for the first and 2023 for the second bailout program. (Had to look it up, 2022 was incorrect.) And interest rates are low.

But I'm talking about ECB and IMF, especially ECB. Eurozone without ECB acting like a real central bank is really useless. Now, of course ECB can't take alone the hit, the other creditors must show solidarity in the debt relief, even the impact will not be the same. Actually a debt rescheduling might be even more useful than a debt cut, but a combination of both could also work. A rescheduling must be agreed now, but some cuts can be conditioned to the implementation of the agreed measures making it act as incentive for Greeks to really stick to the plan. Only if there is some will to solve the situation.

Eurozone countries debts are really not the issue now and that makes the complains of some of them even more ridiculous.

Posting pro or anti syriza "information" is irrelevant when what you are actually posting are lies.

Your tone is really unwarranted. Crab is probably the best poster in this thread. Read some of his comments and you will see that your war is quite stupid.

 

[Guileless]

Stathis Kouvelakis writing at Jacobinmag.com:

A simple conclusion emerges from all this: with the moves it has made in the last week, the government has achieved nothing other than a full return to previous entrapment, from a much more unfavorable position, under the pressure of even more relentless economic asphyxiation. It has managed to squander the powerful injection of political capital from the referendum in record time, following at all points the line of those who had opposed it and who have every reason to feel vindicated, despite being trounced at the ballot box.

Which leads me to believe that despite the professed goals and principles of the Left, an actual workable alternative to neoliberalism simply doesn't exist in the real world in 2015, or Syriza would have taken some concrete steps to escape the "entrapment" of neoliberalism rather than make the situation worse.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Posting pro or anti syriza "information" is irrelevant when what you are actually posting are lies.

? Kathimineri is stating that Tsipras is considering elections in fall. An election requires dissolution of the government. Tsipras is therefore considering a situation in which his government does not last beyond August.

 

[2MF]

Eurozone countries debts are really not the issue now and that makes the complains of some of them even more ridiculous.

But if debt relief is agreed on, it's hard to see that not affecting Eurozone countries, given how much of the debt they hold. Whether that debt matures in the short term or the long term would affect what happens in the next few years, but doesn't mean the long term debt is unaffected by haircuts or similar measures.

 

[KingSnake]

But if debt relief is agreed on, it's hard to see that not affecting Eurozone countries, given how much of the debt they hold. Whether that debt matures in the short term or the long term would affect what happens in the next few years, but doesn't mean the long term debt is unaffected by haircuts or similar measures.

Yeah, but without debt relief there is a huge chance that a default happens before their debts will be paid. So really not much of a choice for them.

 

[M°°nblade]

I trust that the majority of Greeks is reasonable enough to not think that a party with this flag here would or could solve their issues.

Unless they think that a Blitzkrieg against Turkey would be a possible way out of this.

Edgy but unoriginal. Maybe the helghast will help them with Turkey.

 

[sublimit]

? Kathimineri is stating that Tsipras is considering elections in fall.

Which is a lie since Tsipras haven't said anything.This is only the projection of a newspaper that is anti-syriza.Stop playing dumb and spreading lies.

Edit:And actually it's not even an official newspaper projection.It's just the unofficial opinion/tweet of someone who happens to also write for an anti-syriza newspaper.

I trust that the majority of Greeks is reasonable enough to not think that a party with this flag here would or could solve their issues.

You have to realize that the other parties are practically finished in Greece just like the propaganda media who support them.With each passing day Greeks realize more and more that those parties are the ones who have been responsible for the current situation in Greece.They lied to the people before and they continue to lie today.They currently have the worst possible image and even long time supporters of Pasok and New Democracy are now huge supporters of Syriza which is of course a new political party that had nothing to do with the corruption of previous governments.

Germany needs to realize that if Syriza fails and austerity continues then the only alternatives for the people will be either the extreme right or the extreme left wings.And that will lead Greece straight out of Europe of course.

 

[PdotMichael]

I trust that the majority of Greeks is reasonable enough to not think that a party with this flag here would or could solve their issues.

Unless they think that a Blitzkrieg against Turkey would be a possible way out of this.

German tanks vs German tanks

It's like Germany make smoney whatever will happen in Europe.

 

[shinra-bansho]

Play nice, people.

Blanchard's blog post is interesting.

But I'm talking about ECB and IMF, especially ECB. Eurozone without ECB acting like a real central bank is really useless. Now, of course ECB can't take alone the hit, the other creditors must show solidarity in the debt relief, even the impact will not be the same. Actually a debt rescheduling might be even more useful than a debt cut, but a combination of both could also work. A rescheduling must be agreed now, but some cuts can be conditioned to the implementation of the agreed measures making it act as incentive for Greeks to really stick to the plan. Only if there is some will to solve the situation.

Eurozone countries debts are really not the issue now and that makes the complains of some of them even more ridiculous.

I'm a bit confused at what you're referring to in terms of rescheduling and/or relief. The upcoming payments are maturing bonds the ECB holds, short-term treasury bills and loans owed to the IMF. The WSJ link earlier provides an interactive. The IMF isn't, as far as I'm aware, going to reschedule what's owed to them.

(Capital gains and interest on bonds the ECB holds are technically returned, at the discretion of the ECB and on the basis that Greece remains in a programme. There's a tranche of these currently in limbo though, as pointed out earlier in the thread.)

If I understand the response to an earlier post in the thread correctly, if they're able to retire the IMF programme, with European institutional/bilateral funding, then they'd be able to push this down the road and provide breathing space.

 

[Maedre]

 

[ElTorro]

Who makes these "nation-ball" comics?

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Who makes these "nation-ball" comics?

People on reddit.

 

[KingSnake]

I'm a bit confused at what you're referring to in terms of rescheduling and/or relief. The upcoming payments are maturing bonds the ECB holds, short-term treasury bills and loans owed to the IMF. The WSJ link earlier provides an interactive. The IMF isn't, as far as I'm aware, going to reschedule what's owed to them.

(Capital gains and interest on bonds the ECB holds are technically returned, at the discretion of the ECB and on the basis that Greece remains in a programme. There's a tranche of these currently in limbo though, as pointed out earlier in the thread.)

If I understand the response to an earlier post in the thread correctly, if they're able to retire the IMF programme, with European institutional/bilateral funding, then they'd be able to push this down the road and provide breathing space.

Practically ECB can step in and provide (re)funding with a better payment schedule for part of what's coming in the next years.

 

[ElTorro]

Let's see how important this particular issue here will be.

Kazimir is the Slovak finance minister.

And something from Schäuble:

 

[oti]

No haircut no deal.

 

[KingSnake]

No haircut no deal.

Technically there can be a deal without a haircut, if the request to ESM is approved.

 

[itsgreen]

Finance ministers seem to distrust the Greek government a bit.

http://www.theguardian.com/business...rozone-creditors-meet-to-decide-countrys-fate

 

[petran79]

You have to realize that the other parties are practically finished in Greece just like the propaganda media who support them.With each passing day Greeks realize more and more that those parties are the ones who have been responsible for the current situation in Greece.They lied to the people before and they continue to lie today.They currently have the worst possible image and even long time supporters of Pasok and New Democracy are now huge supporters of Syriza which is of course a new political party that had nothing to do with the corruption of previous governments.

Germany needs to realize that if Syriza fails and austerity continues then the only alternatives for the people will be either the extreme right or the extreme left wings.And that will lead Greece straight out of Europe of course.

the old SYRIZA unfortunately has been replaced by the members of old corrupt PASOK that deflected to SYRIZA after their party became irrelevant few years ago. Because it was those members who had actual experience with administration and being in power. It was them also who marginalized the old guard and made the party more approachable to the electorate.

Old SYRIZA, the party that took 3.2 % a decade ago, had more in common with the Communist and went even further with the support of anarchist and extreme left movements (terrorist to some) that would cause most European politicians to foam.
This is not the SYRIZA as it was meant to be. Golden Dawn of course had to pretend to wear some "democratic veil" in order to get elected, but SYRIZA's transformation is much more radical.

 

[SSPssp]

This is great! I've seen his/her comics around before but never got a name/link. I tried google image search but it didn't work. Could anyone give me some info please?

Edit: I see its from ppl on Reddit. Can anyone link the sub-forum?

Edit 2: Found one: https://www.reddit.com/r/polandball/

 

[ElTorro]

Watched the full doorstep interview with Schäuble. He made two interesting statements that have not been tweeted.

He subtly accused his colleagues to have been prematurely and unwarrantedly optimistic in public about the new proposal.

And he reiterated that submitting the old proposal from days ago, which was abut finishing the second bailout program, will "by far" not be enough for a full third bailout program.

 

[Engell]

Finance ministers seem to distrust the Greek government a bit.

http://www.theguardian.com/business...rozone-creditors-meet-to-decide-countrys-fate

Cant imagine why that would be the case

 

[PdotMichael]

Watched the full doorstep interview with Schäuble. He made two interesting statements that have not been tweeted.

He subtly accused his colleagues to have been prematurely and unwarrantedly optimistic in public about the new proposal.

And he reiterated that submitting the old proposal from days ago, which was abut finishing the second bailout program, will "by far" not be enough for a full third bailout program.

This weekend will show how isolated Schäuble.

Too much fanfiction was written the past days.

 

[My words exactly!]

According to the Greek newspaper, Kathimerini, Tsipras is not expecting his government to last beyond the end of August.

That's because it's a slightly different source.

Posting pro or anti syriza "information" is irrelevant when what you are actually posting are lies.

Exactly. Kathimerini is... shall we say a not completely ubniased source...
Here's a last weeks cover and a comparison to its' shameful past:
https://translate.google.gr/translate?hl=el&sl=el&tl=en&u=http://www.makeleio.gr/?p=388190

I don't think that Germany ever intended to really deny a debt relief. They just want to sweep the issue under the rug for now to not piss off their electorate.

Let's not forget that this debt relief issue, at the moment, is entirely political and has nothing to do with the economic situation in Greece.

Let's also not forget that EVERYONE, including even Shauble, acknowledges that debt is non viable without a cut. Anyway, personally i like where this goes, cause this will lead to a Grexit as well as a Syriza catharsis (ie Syriza is a heterogenous party, this crisis will help separate its' true radicals from its' complacent politicians).

Some of the Greeks in this thread will want to correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the most likely prospect is actually Syriza returning having shed the far left, followed by New Democracy.

See above.

 

[Coriolanus]

*countryballscomic*

Lawd in heaven, this made me laugh hard.

Also will be hilarious if syriza has to take a new, even harsher proposal back to his parliament for a vote.

Let's also not forget that EVERYONE, including even Shauble, acknowledges that debt is non viable without a cut. Anyway, personally i like where this goes, cause this will lead to a Grexit as well as a Syriza catharsis (ie Syriza is a heterogenous party, this crisis will help separate its' true radicals from its' complacent politicians).

Dude, today's vote has just showed that, like, 90%+ of syriza can be labeled "complacent politicians". And it could be argued that those ideologically driven 10% are exactly the kinda people that you want to have around if your Master Plan (if it even exists at this point) is handling something as extreme as a Grexit. Need a strong vision and the capacity for withstanding grotesque hardships and all.

 

[TCRS]

People on reddit.

and 4chan:

 

[My words exactly!]

This weekend will show how isolated Schäuble.

Too much fanfiction was written the past days.

I trust that the majority of Greeks is reasonable enough to not think that a party with this flag here would or could solve their issues.

This is a μαίανδρος ''meander'' ancient greek sign. Just like the nazis tarnished the swastiga (former δίγαμμα ''gammadion'' in ancient greek), GD has tarnished that too. They snaffle greek history and tradition despite most of its members not even having correct spelling or grammar in their speeches!

Dude, today's vote has just showed that, like, 90%+ of syriza can be labeled "complacent politicians". And it could be argued that those ideologically driven 10% are exactly the kinda people that you want to have around if your Master Plan (if it even exists at this point) is handling something as extreme as a Grexit. Need a strong vision and the capacity for withstanding grotesque hardships and all.

Ofcourse but i'd rather have anyone show where they truly stand. Especially now that the old guard is at an all time low. Otherwise GD will come into play, which would be catastrophic. KKE will remain at 5-6% as well.

 

[oti]

Hollande: Those are serious proposals and can be trusted.
Schäuble: Those proposals aren't enough and I don't trust them.

 

[ElTorro]

Ironically enough, all Greeks who were serious about that OXI are now rooting for Schäuble.

 

[PrimaNocta]

As someone who has heard about this but not sure exactly on what's going on besides some debt being owed, can someone direct me to a unbiased site to explain the situation? Or maybe someone can break it down for me.

Thanks

 

[Deleted member 231381]

As someone who has heard about this but not sure exactly on what's going on besides some debt being owed, can someone direct me to a unbiased site to explain the situation? Or maybe someone can break it down for me.

Thanks

Starting from which point? It's quite a long story.

 

[LJ11]

It's funny how often Schauble repeats that X is not possible under the treaties considering where we are today. Those treaties have been shredded up pretty good, not enough to wipe your ass with at this point.

 

[Hyperactivity]

Ironically enough, all Greeks who were serious about that OXI are now rooting for Schäuble.

Probably want the proposal to not go through

 

[PrimaNocta]

Starting from which point? It's quite a long story.

Lol damn. Well I don't want a history on Greece on the last 100 years, I guess just some bullet points on wtf is going on. Guess I'll head to google.