Northeastmonk
Gold Member
I question her intelligence. It’s like she’d party with the nazis just for climate change.
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Hamas terrorists infiltrated Israel. 1400+ killed, 2400+ wounded, 240+ abducted. Israel declares war
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I question her intelligence. It’s like she’d party with the nazis just for climate change.
She's a puppet. An antisemite puppet.
supernova8
Banned
Seems like we're getting baited into joining one of two extreme camps.
On one side we have "Israel are terrorists, down with Israel, from the river to the sea!" etc etc etc
on the other side we have "Hamas must pay, no matter the cost (to the Palestinians, that is)"
Surely there's a middle ground along the lines of "yes obviously go after Hamas but maybe conducting thousands of airstrikes on a small piece of land where civilians have nowhere to go miiiiight be a recipe for disaster?"
The obvious reality is that the IDF cares far less about Palestinian civilians than it does about Israeli civilians. Sure they might be taking certain precautions to avoid civilian casualties, but the moment you decide "yeah let's drop a 500kg bomb on this building" you kinda lose the right to keep saying "we're taking every precaution!".
Only have to ask one question to prove this: was the Israeli air force conducting thousands of air strikes inside Israel while Hamas terrorists were still at large? No. They weren't. They sent mainly infantry to take on those Hamas terrorists because they probably knew using airstrikes would lead to.... wait for it... "collateral damage".
Not saying I have a solution. That's for the IDF to work out. Just saying they obviously aren't "taking every precaution" inside Gaza because we can see exactly what "taking every precaution" actually looks like by examining their response to the attack inside Israel.
On one side we have "Israel are terrorists, down with Israel, from the river to the sea!" etc etc etc
on the other side we have "Hamas must pay, no matter the cost (to the Palestinians, that is)"
Surely there's a middle ground along the lines of "yes obviously go after Hamas but maybe conducting thousands of airstrikes on a small piece of land where civilians have nowhere to go miiiiight be a recipe for disaster?"
The obvious reality is that the IDF cares far less about Palestinian civilians than it does about Israeli civilians. Sure they might be taking certain precautions to avoid civilian casualties, but the moment you decide "yeah let's drop a 500kg bomb on this building" you kinda lose the right to keep saying "we're taking every precaution!".
Only have to ask one question to prove this: was the Israeli air force conducting thousands of air strikes inside Israel while Hamas terrorists were still at large? No. They weren't. They sent mainly infantry to take on those Hamas terrorists because they probably knew using airstrikes would lead to.... wait for it... "collateral damage".
Not saying I have a solution. That's for the IDF to work out. Just saying they obviously aren't "taking every precaution" inside Gaza because we can see exactly what "taking every precaution" actually looks like by examining their response to the attack inside Israel.
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Tomeru
Member
You could just say your heart is with the innocent victims and be done with it. No need for this wall of pretentious text, frend.
These insurrectionist need to be treated like
Thats an uniformed take, you bought hamas's propaganda hook line and sinker, any terrorists in Israeli were not fortified or precisely known positions, a ground assault against a well hidden, fortified and defended position is suicide .
Furthermore ground assaults with large numbers of hostile civilians present is a recipe for mass casualties among civilians, Way higher than hamas caused with their human shields against airstrike policy
Coupled with airstrikes being the most effective way to convince civilians to clear out regardless of what they are being told to do by their leaders
Plus people like you both sidesing things is exactly why they pull tactics like setting rocket Stations in boy scout centers or build bunkers under hospitals, they know a certain block of people will ignore the only reason civilians are in danger is because of them and blame isreal, every civilian casualty is on Hamas
Bojji
Member
If hamas won't be eradicated all "peace talks" will be irrelevant, few months from now this shit will start again.
If they are eradicated their replacement will take more time to form so peace will actually be achieved (for some time...).
supernova8
Banned
Firstly, not your friend.
Second, if you don't have an actual response to what I said why bother responding at all?
Apocryphon
Member
Can you really be this obtuse?
supernova8
Banned
There's no reason why the eradication of Hamas needs to involve thousands of air strikes, though. This is my point.
Plus, we all know (since they make it clear) that the main Hamas leadership isn't even inside Gaza so what are all these air strikes for? Is it really a genius plan to drop large bombs on apartment blocks for the purposes of killing a few (even a few dozen, hell let's say 50 if you want) Hamas fighters who, by themselves in the grand scheme of things, don't matter while at the same time most likely killing dozens or even hundreds of civilians whose left behind family might then decide (for better or worse, probably worse) to join Hamas or some other organization that appears after this is over?
Tomeru
Member
Because if you don't understand international law or war laws or any of that (not saying that I do, but you definitely dont), and you have no solutions to anything, yet you seem to have proof of something (the reason why idf didnt bomb inside israel [wtf]), what was the point of your post? In order for logic to win, you must have a logical baseline, and peace time and war time do not share that same base.
So, to me, your post was just you trying to walk on your toes. You don't need to do that. Unless you are a hamas supporter, you (we, everyone) will feel for all innocent victims. Plain and simple.
I wasn't trying to antagonize you when saying frend, sorry for that
Ironbunny
Member
Yes its quite right to use bombs and level them out. They are not trying to just kill Hamas leaders but whole hamas. Considering the Hamas terrorists are using civilians clothes any report of civilians deaths need to be taken with a grain of salt. Especially male deaths. The whole shitshow in Palestine from media etc. is controlled by Hamas so I have zero trust on what they say.
And Israel is trying to minimize their own civilian casualties by using air power. IDF _is_ civilian army so any death of their own counts more.
And Israel did not ask for this war but they sure as hell are right on finishing it.
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supernova8
Banned
I want them to eradicate Hamas. Hamas is the worst thing that ever happened to the Palestinians and it's a shame that they essentially ended all democracy in Gaza after initially winning that election decades ago (and even then not by much).
There's nothing strange about saying "Yes please destroy Hamas" but also saying "Maybe rethink how you're doing it".
Plus, I 100% agree with you that every civilian casualty is ultimately on Hamas (for either forcibly stopping people from leaving certain areas) but then where does that lead us? Do we just say Israel should blow up every single building that might house Hamas terrorists or weapons caches because "oh well it's technnnnnically not our fault anyway"? Maybe you'd say Yes. I say No.
Apocryphon
Member
The assumption that the IDF would use JDAMs to target widely dispersed gunmen is ridiculous. Air strikes are being used to target missile launchers, tunnels, fortified artillery positions, vehicles, militant leadership, and command centres.
The exact same reason that the US didn’t just roll troops into Baghdad and instead conducted thousands of air strikes over the course of three weeks before troops set foot in the city.
This is what they’re dealing with:
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tommib
Member
Bibi wants to exterminate Hamas which also means destroying every infrastructure used by the organisation that allows them to orchestrate themselves and attack from.
He is indeed sending the region back to the stone ages so that it takes them as long as possible to rebuild themselves and go on another new proto-holocaust. Israel built the most sophisticated self-defense mechanism with the iron dome 10 years ago for a reason. Defending themselves hasn’t been enough.
Israel lost control of the narrative from day 1 when immediately after the Hamas massacre the world was already in the streets screaming “gas the Jews” and had Palestine flags planted in front of governments.
I agree with you that Bibi is on a mission with no sympathy for innocent civilians because he does see himself as a Messiah and he sees everyone in the region including children as a potential terrorist that will grow up to kill Jews. He is an extreme pessimist.
I do wonder if all the vitriolic idiots on campuses that were exhilarated watching Jews being chased, tortured, beheaded and burned alive still feel that the attack empowered the oppressed? Was it worth it to do this to Gaza?
There are 30K Hamas members in Gaza. The death toll is currently at 11K. I won’t be surprised that we’ll be seeing 200K dead in the strip by the end of the operation.
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Never gonna happen. Most of the strip evacuated South already, and there are less people in the North where Israel wants to take control.
From earlier on this thread you are really aching to both-sideism this, but this clearly shows your point is invalid. Israel is doing all it can to prevent civilian deaths by these airstrikes so they can move in troops with minimal risk to them. Israel could have leveled Gaza by now, it could've been a parking lot if Israel wanted it. But instead, we are doing everything to minimize collateral damage. I would have leveled the place after what they've done.
It also serves to show the Arab world that if you mess with Israel, say bye bye to your cities. That's why if Hezbollah pushes us they can see what will become of Beirut.
This is war.
MisterFalcon
Member
The intentions of the two sides should be obvious from the numbers.
Hamas:
Forces: 1,500 men
Weapons: Rockets, rifles and grenades
Timeframe: Around six hours
Result: 1,200 Israelis killed
Israel:
Forces: 300,000
Weapons: Tanks, JDAMs, artillery, rifles and grenades
Timeframe: 36 days and counting
Result: 10,000 Palestinians killed
If indeed the two sides are equally out to kill the maximum number of civilians on the other side you have to wonder why Hamas has not conquered all of Israel yet. By the metrics, each of their soldiers is hundreds of times more deadly.
Hamas:
Forces: 1,500 men
Weapons: Rockets, rifles and grenades
Timeframe: Around six hours
Result: 1,200 Israelis killed
Israel:
Forces: 300,000
Weapons: Tanks, JDAMs, artillery, rifles and grenades
Timeframe: 36 days and counting
Result: 10,000 Palestinians killed
If indeed the two sides are equally out to kill the maximum number of civilians on the other side you have to wonder why Hamas has not conquered all of Israel yet. By the metrics, each of their soldiers is hundreds of times more deadly.
Havoc2049
Member
On 7 October 2023, Hamas launched an incursion into Israel starting with a rocket barrage of over 5,000 missiles against Israeli targets,[142][143][144] leading to the Israel-Hamas War.
supernova8
Banned
So actually on the topic of our invasion of Iraq, we know roughly 2 years into that war, George Bush stated that around 30,000 civilians died as a result of the initial incursion and ongoing violence"
Boston Uni paper on civilian deaths during Iraq War (at the top of page 2)
In comparison, despite Biden/Kirby saying they don't believe the civilian death figures coming from Hamas (which is fair enough, Hamas has every incentive to inflate them), a government official has since suggested that the number is probably higher (than the 10,000 cited by Hamas). Plus the final UN numbers tend to be not far off what Hamas ("The Gaza Health Ministry").
So that's 30,000 civilians killed in a full scale invasion over 2 years versus 10,000 killed over roughly 2 months. Even if we say half of that 10,000 is actually Hamas terrorists, and then let's put number of "genuine" civilian deaths at 5,000, that's still quite a large amount (and much worse than Iraq so far in relative terms).
Even if we say Israel just doing what the coalition did when they invaded Iraq, the numbers still point to Israel (in the process, not deliberately) killing proportionately a lot more civilians. So based on that I'm sticking with my "maybe they could be doing it differently" stance.
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supernova8
Banned
ChuckeRearmed
Member
The attempt to "both sides" is hilarious. Hamas is hiding behind the backs of women and children, hiding the supplies and conducting attacks on Israel where the 7th was the final straw. The idea that IDF is deliberately attacking civilians, any attempts to compare Hamas to IDF is a nonsense. Post 7th Israel will do whatever it takes to erase the tumor which is Hamas. And it will be better for palestinians too.
There obvious will be move civilian death in Gaza due to higher human concentration (and of course people believe Hamas' numbers all the time), Hamas hiding underground and among people but sometimes I feel that certain people would feel better if more Israeli died so that the death toll would be balanced, because these discussions always boil down to "Hamas did not kill enough people for IDF to air attack civilians in Gaza".
There obvious will be move civilian death in Gaza due to higher human concentration (and of course people believe Hamas' numbers all the time), Hamas hiding underground and among people but sometimes I feel that certain people would feel better if more Israeli died so that the death toll would be balanced, because these discussions always boil down to "Hamas did not kill enough people for IDF to air attack civilians in Gaza".
Wildebeest
Member
I'm against that idea that Israel-Palestine is some "litmus test" and everyone has to have some super hard opinion on it. For most people, it has nothing to do with their lives, and in reality they have very little influence on what is going on there. Hamas are not going to stop killing because some random oik on Twitter suddenly works out they are not really god's special chosen murder angels and are just sick bastards.
DrKeo
Member
Israel is bombing their own civilians. There are over 240 Israelis in Gaza, more than 30 of them are children. Hamas already claimed weeks ago that more than 20 of the kidnapped Israelis have died from the bombings. It's probably not true, but you seem to believe them.
How is Israel's war on Hamas different than the West's war on ISIS? What you are seeing in Gaza is what every war looks like, the only difference is that Jews are involved so every small detail is scrutinized to a pulp, and at the same time a massive propaganda machine is churning hate.
There are 11K dead Palestinians, not 11K dead civilians. It's similar to when people talk about the death toll in the West Bank, but for some reason, they include terrorists who have been shot while stabbing or shooting civilians. The freaking Lions' Den group is counted in the West Bank death toll. In the Oct 7th attack alone more than 1000 terrorists have died.
On top of that, 20% of Hamas rockets fail and fall on Gaza, that's way over 1000 rockets fired on civilians with no shelters or warning. The "accurate Hamas figures" claim 500 deaths by just one of these rockets, in reality, it's probably closer to 100. Who knows how many of the 11K have been killed by Hamas rockets? And we haven't even talked about all the Palestinians Hamas have killed in order to keep them in the north, just like the civilians they sniped on the road to the south.
The UN says that in these types of conflicts, there are usually 90% civilian casualties. In the Israel-Gaza conflicts, the UN numbers show 30%-65% civilian casualties, which is probably the best enemy-to-civilian death ratio in urban warfare's history.
Israel has kept Hamas "managed" for two decades. Hamas has shown it is not manageable, so it must go. How? By destroying it, which could have been a 5-day campaign with zero dead civilians if they had fought like an army. But they fight like the worst kind of terrorist organization, so it will take months.
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Sakura
Member
You can't say they can go after Hamas while also saying they shouldn't endanger civilians. This is impossible.
Hamas operates out of civilian infrastructure. They use an extensive, well fortified tunnel system that runs beneath hospitals, apartment blocks, etc.
They store weapons there. Pop out at different locations to launch artillary. Have local headquarters there.
The extensive bombing is necessary. Of course you don't have another solution, because there isn't one.
Comparing it to the raid in Israel territory is ridiculous. These were men with limited weapons, operating in the open. Airstrikes were not necessary.
Also, remember that the number of civilian casualties comes from Hamas.
How many of the casualties are actually their fighters? How many of the casualties were the result of Hamas? For example, we already know the parking lot explosion at a hospital a couple weeks ago was caused by a misfired rocket from the Hamas side. The 500 or so casualties they claim is included in that 10,000 plus number.
bellome
Member
The solution should be political, not militar.
MisterFalcon
Member
That went out the window after Hamas lauched a brigade size invasion to murder as many people as possible before having to retreat with hundreds of hostages.
Not one country in the world would respond to this with just negotiations.
7th time's the charm right?
ChuckeRearmed
Member
There cannot be a political solution with neo-ISIS. Political solution requires political entities to be invovled and Hamas is not a government but a raid bandit camp, that builds tunnels under civilian infrastructure, launches rockets behind civilian backs, using them a shields. I do find it hilarious how people are defending Hamas, yet Hamas is not different from ISIS. And ISIS still had civilians in their lands and all the same things, but only with palestinians it is somehow different.
I still believe that UK is behind all this media outrage in regards of Israel. UK media was the first one to sound the alarm regarding hospital bombings after all. And their protests in London are the biggest ones too.
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Artoris
Gold Member
I don't think there is such a thing as UK media anymore
Madserb2023
Member
The UK has been in decline for decades and I am not surprised by what I have seen so far. I am ashamed to live here. The UK should be awarded the Darwin award. It's a bit like Rome where you have the barbarians at the gates and you have the people at the BBC fiddling away.
BlackTron
Member
Time for a new avatar, disqualified.
Israel is not an extremist camp. It's actually the normal moral place to be, as you can see by any protest or person arguing for it online. Compared to the brain rot and antisemitism and Jew hatered of the other.
Cyberpunkd
Member
Toots
Gold Member
I totally agree and it's appalling to watch women gleefully use violence like this.
In french we say il y a des claques qui se perdent ("those morons have not been slapped enough" more or less).
I think it is because they don't really know what violence and war are like. They live too sheltered lives to understand the pain that goes with it.
If it starts to heat up and there's clash between pro hamas and ajusted human beings, im pretty sure you won't see as much women on the frontline.
It is a very arab posture in fact. Being over the top with your bravado and violence when you think you can get away with it, and crying like a child when caught (see the woman in her 30s -
- in the reddit video above).
FunkMiller
Member
That's... really not why she was fired. The woman is a fucking idiot, and she's done and said some incredibly stupid things during her entire time as Home Sec. This latest stuff was just the final straw.
Also, she wants Sunak's job, and he needed to get rid of her. That's the real reason why she's gone.
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first, they came for the Jews, someone spoke out and they promptly fired her
You don't think there's a major difference between urban campaigns to flush out fleeing terrorists in Israel vs in Gaza where a deeply embedded Hamas has spent years preparing a warren of trenches, tunnels and booby traps?
nah. She's been one of the more reviled people in the UK for ages. No need to link it to this current mess.
Pancakes and Sausage
Member
I wonder what would happen if for example the KKK joined these anti Jew demonstrations that are happening on campuses?
United in hate - what would the world think about these demonstrations then?
winjer
Gold Member
This division of people by race is exactly what the Nazi's did. The ranking position might be different, but the identity politics concept is exactly the same.
Nazi's even had a category for women, as they would not allow them into the frontlines and even working was frowned upon.
And Nazi's also supported that the "lower tier" races should be a target of violence.
And finally, or course, they also place Jews in the bottom tier.
When these college professors and students, have so much with the Nazi's, it should be a clear sign that something is very wrong.
Despite that, they still double down on the hatred and racism.
It's disgusting that we fought so hard to beat the Nazi's, only to see the same politics rise again, not even a century later.
ManaByte
Member
They never went away. They just went into hiding and became billionaires to pour money into groups that fund education and mostly peaceful protests.
Wildebeest
Member
Braverman has had chances to make her "hardline" policies work, but in the past she has been behind loopy headline chasing plans that didn't work, and recently she showed the lack of respect and authority she commands when her demands about protests were simply just ignored. In terms of the BBC and their headlines, the BBC is a huge organisation, with many departments that don't interact or get along, often with very junior or biased staff being allowed to do things they really shouldn't. They are not really under control of some shadowy agenda.
supernova8
Banned
BlackTron
Member
Good choice! Change it to a jpeg first tho
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