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[SlimySnake]

omg at all the uncle niece marriages. those spanish were some sick bastards.

But yes, cousin marriages were common until recently. I think Queen Victoria married her first cousin, and Elizabeth II married her 2nd cousin. Or maybe third. EDIT: She might have been Philip's aunt! Lord Mountbaten was her second cousin and he was also Philip's maternal uncle. (Mom's brother) Which would make Philip her nephew twice removed lol.

 

[Lady Jane]

omg at all the uncle niece marriages. those spanish were some sick bastards.

But yes, cousin marriages were common until recently. I think Queen Victoria married her first cousin, and Elizabeth II married her 2nd cousin. Or maybe third. EDIT: She might have been Philip's aunt! Lord Mountbaten was her second cousin and he was also Philip's maternal uncle. (Mom's brother) Which would make Philip her nephew twice removed lol.

They still are in less developed countries. There's a town in Mexico with two big families where incest is common and lots of people looking like Charles II. My friend who is a native there married her second cousin at 20 and no one at that wedding batted an eye.

 

[jason10mm]

I want a talking dragon, and do dragons commit incest like the Targaryens.

In the books they have male and female dragons, but they can not tell them apart until they produce a clutch of eggs, then they are known to be "she-dragons". There is also speculation they are hermaphroditic. AFAICT there is no mention of specific breeding rituals or really any attempt to manage dragons other than "hey, this one let me ride it, I guess it is mine now!"

 

[jason10mm]

The Targaryen dynasty has always been incestuous. Wouldn't the entire realm be in revolt if it's such a forbidden practice?

Also, Otto literally suggested Rhaenyra wed her brother in the previous episode.

There WERE revolts with prior Kings marrying their close relatives. This is all book stuff though, my other thread might be a better place to discuss it.

 

[AJUMP23]

In the books they have male and female dragons, but they can not tell them apart until they produce a clutch of eggs, then they are known to be "she-dragons". There is also speculation they are hermaphroditic. AFAICT there is no mention of specific breeding rituals or really any attempt to manage dragons other than "hey, this one let me ride it, I guess it is mine now!"

Are there any wild dragons in the world?

I would also not want to gender check a Dragon.

 

[jason10mm]

Are there any wild dragons in the world?

I would also not want to gender check a Dragon.

Yes, living on Dragonstone. 2-3 at this point.

 

[BadBurger]

I just wanted to point out that the lower his character finds himself in, the better the performance from Considine. This guy went from "oh yea, that one UK actor in that one movie I forget" to first class.

 

[sol_bad]

The 4th episode was a very good episode. Were Daemon and Mysaria working together with ruining Raenyra and are they somehow working with Otto? It seems a little convenient for Mysaria to know who Otto's spy was right?

Speaking of Otto, I'm happy that Viserys finally got rid of him, shame he couldn't realise himself what a danger Otto was.

My only complaint is again the time jump, which actually leads to 2 complaints.
1: It feels like it's truncating character development. It was hard for me to accept that Raenyra and Alicent were all buddy buddy again as that development all happened off screen.
2: it's been 5 months or so since episode 3, Viserys is asking Daemon about the Stepstones and what it's current situation is, how the hell could Viserys not know after 5 months. It doesn't make sense.

 

[thegame983]

I respect the hustle from Rhaenyra.


She wanted some from someone and was going to get it.

In Finland they call it 'the fever of the sausage'

 

[HoodWinked]

The 4th episode was a very good episode. Were Daemon and Mysaria working together with ruining Raenyra and are they somehow working with Otto? It seems a little convenient for Mysaria to know who Otto's spy was right?

Speaking of Otto, I'm happy that Viserys finally got rid of him, shame he couldn't realise himself what a danger Otto was.

She is the spy.

 

[sol_bad]

She is the spy.

derp
Why did I not pick up on this?

*EDIT*
Damn it, now you have made me over analyse this whole plot point.

Otto wants Raenyra tarnished
Mysaria and Daemon want Raenyra tarnished (I think).
Otto has no idea that Raenyra will leave her room and go out to town. Daemon and Mysaria do know this though.
I think the boy is Otto's spy and Mysaria told the boy where Daemon and Raenyra would be and paid him to tell Otto the information.

BUT

If Mysaria and Daemon want to tarnish Raenyra, why go to all that trouble of taking her to a whore house and trying to seduce her, why not just pay the boy to spread a lie about them? It didn't seem like Otto did any fact checking and just blindly believed the boy.

 

[Lukaku's First Touch]

I was thinking they would do some sort of check on Raenyra to see if she was not 'spoiled'.

 

[jason10mm]

derp
Why did I not pick up on this?

*EDIT*
Damn it, now you have made me over analyse this whole plot point.

Otto wants Raenyra tarnished
Mysaria and Daemon want Raenyra tarnished (I think).
Otto has no idea that Raenyra will leave her room and go out to town. Daemon and Mysaria do know this though.
I think the boy is Otto's spy and Mysaria told the boy where Daemon and Raenyra would be and paid him to tell Otto the information.

BUT

If Mysaria and Daemon want to tarnish Raenyra, why go to all that trouble of taking her to a whore house and trying to seduce her, why not just pay the boy to spread a lie about them? It didn't seem like Otto did any fact checking and just blindly believed the boy.

I don't think Daemon is trying to smear Rhaenrya. He WANTED to sleep with her, but chickened out for some reason. Whether Mysaria is directly working with Otto or somewhat in parallel with him remains to be seen, though I bet there was a measure of payback on Mysarias part in revealing Daemons misdoings. I suspect Mysaria is the King's Landing lower caste "spymaster" reporting stuff up to Otto but not directly empowered by him. It is a mutually beneficial relationship to pass on info to the Hand in return for any info he can pass down to her/tax protection,, etc.

 

[PaddyOCanager]

I don't think Daemon is trying to smear Rhaenrya. He WANTED to sleep with her, but chickened out for some reason.

He didn't chicken out, he's impotent - he's had that problem since episode 1.

 

[Relique]

derp
Why did I not pick up on this?

*EDIT*
Damn it, now you have made me over analyse this whole plot point.

Otto wants Raenyra tarnished
Mysaria and Daemon want Raenyra tarnished (I think).
Otto has no idea that Raenyra will leave her room and go out to town. Daemon and Mysaria do know this though.
I think the boy is Otto's spy and Mysaria told the boy where Daemon and Raenyra would be and paid him to tell Otto the information.

BUT

If Mysaria and Daemon want to tarnish Raenyra, why go to all that trouble of taking her to a whore house and trying to seduce her, why not just pay the boy to spread a lie about them? It didn't seem like Otto did any fact checking and just blindly believed the boy.

He did fact check though. He told the king multiple witnesses placed her there.

As for my thoughts, I enjoyed the episode but there aren't enough characters I feel compared to GoT. Now that we're 4 episodes in it's sticking out to me more and more as a problem, especially now that house Velaryon have been offscreen for a while. I am hoping the time skip will introduce many characters.

GoT had many plot threads moving at the same time. I am fine with this being more focused but there isn't anything beyond the question of succession at this point. The crab king was fun but short lived imo and ultimately only fed into the main plot

 

[GloveSlap]

I was thinking they would do some sort of check on Raenyra to see if she was not 'spoiled'.

Same, i thought the kings guard guy was going to be executed.

 

[Nobody_Important]

Chins that could open beers.

 

[BadBurger]

Favourite episode of the show so far. The slower pace is definitely the way to go.

But what was up with Alicent's outrage over Rhaenyra and Daemon's relations? Her anger seemed misplaced... unless I'm missing something obvious.

I think Alicent is frustrated with her life and was jealous of Rhaenyra.

 

[Nobody_Important]

Favourite episode of the show so far. The slower pace is definitely the way to go.

But what was up with Alicent's outrage over Rhaenyra and Daemon's relations? Her anger seemed misplaced... unless I'm missing something obvious.

Daemon is charismatic, handsome, and a warrior of renown. Meanwhile Alicent got sold off like a brood mare to a bumbling unattractive king that is twice her age at the behest of her own father. She was given no choice at all in the arrangement and as we saw from the bedroom scene she takes no joy at all in her predicament thanks to the King being as bad of a lover as he is a King. She is basically a baby machine locked in a tower with no freedom of movement unlike Rhaenyra who is a pampered princess of means and station as well as being given the incredibly rare opportunity of being able to choose her spouse which is COMPLETELY unheard of for anyone else in her position. A freedom that Alicent could have only dreamed of.


And what does Rhaenyra do with her freedom from Alicent's PoV? She shuns all suitors while going out and partying with her hero uncle at a whorehouse. She continues to do as she pleases when and where she wants with her faithful Knight Sir Criston as her shoulder at all times. All while Alicent is stuck in her own carefully crafted prison with no real personal contact or support at all.



TL;DR? It's Jealousy.


EDIT: Oh and going of the shows representation of the pair of them and their relationship there is like a 60% chance that they wanted to get with each other. So there may be a bit of that angle as well between them.

 

[DKehoe]

For non Targaryens the incest aspect is ANATHEMA. It is strickly against the teaching of the Seven.

Yeh the Targaryens being all incesty is something they've done for a while but the rest of Westeros (the nobility, the church and the common folk) are not ok with it. It's just that the Targaryens have dragons so you can't really fuck with them over it. After the dragons died off them marrying non-Targaryens became a bit more common because political marriages became more useful.

 

[NotMyProblemAnymoreCunt]

 

[V1LÆM]

I won't post spoilers but I think I just spoiled the entire show for myself or atleast major plot points. I should not snoop around on wiki pages.

I guess I'll just enjoy seeing how we get there.

 

[PaddyOCanager]

I won't post spoilers but I think I just spoiled the entire show for myself or atleast major plot points. I should not snoop around on wiki pages.

I guess I'll just enjoy seeing how we get there.

It's weird for me because I had read all the GoT books prior to the show but now I'm flying blind with HotD. I kinda don't like it and have considered spoiling myself lol.

 

[V1LÆM]

It's weird for me because I had read all the GoT books prior to the show but now I'm flying blind with HotD. I kinda don't like it and have considered spoiling myself lol.

i have only read the first two ASOIAF books. i wasn't trying to spoil myself. i was only interested in what the "dance of dragons" was because i thought we were going to see it in the next episode. in hindsight i might have been very stupid to think that was coming so soon lol. seems like it'll be Season 2/3. I saw things like who dies and who gets together. lol.

 

[March Climber]

So gaf: Whats worse? Brother sister incest? Or Uncle Niece incest?

Gonna go with the latter. Especially when the Niece is like 15 years old virgin who you take her into a whore house orgy.

P.S Why is GRRM so obssessed with incest? lol

Everyone is correcting you and I just wanted to add that there's no way she's still 15/16 at this point. The time skips have been a bit too subtle for mass audiences but keep in mind that her best friend spent a significant time with the king falling in love with him after his wife died, married the king, became pregnant, had Aegon, and now Aegon looks to be 1-2 years old.

The show keeps making it look like all of these events are taking place day by day because they're using subtle dialogue to explain how long it's been, confusing mass audiences.

This is why a few reviewers pointed out how ridiculous it seems for Rae to hold this long of a grudge and resentment against her father and best friend for marrying and having Aegon. That's an extremely long amount of time to continuously walk around being angry and rebellious about it all on a daily basis. I would be just as aggravated as the king if I had to deal with that level of constant resentment and snide remarks over the course of a few years.

 

[jason10mm]

Everyone is correcting you and I just wanted to add that there's no way she's still 15/16 at this point. The time skips have been a bit too subtle for mass audiences but keep in mind that her best friend spent a significant time with the king falling in love with him after his wife died, married the king, became pregnant, had Aegon, and now Aegon looks to be 1-2 years old.

The show keeps making it look like all of these events are taking place day by day because they're using subtle dialogue to explain how long it's been, confusing mass audiences.

This is why a few reviewers pointed out how ridiculous it seems for Rae to hold this long of a grudge and resentment against her father and best friend for marrying and having Aegon. That's an extremely long amount of time to continuously walk around being angry and rebellious about it all on a daily basis. I would be just as aggravated as the king if I had to deal with that level of constant resentment and snide remarks over the course of a few years.

They specifically call out Rhaenrya being "seven and ten" in ep 3, with the little time jump in ep4 she could be 18.

Hollywoods intense desire to NEVER show a teenager having sex really hurts them in depicting GRRM stuff. Like 80% of his characters are married with kids by 16-17

Even a show like Euphoria feels like 18 year old high school kids given how they act. I don't think we will ever see stuff like American Pie again, much less a film like Kids.

 

[TintoConCasera]

This episode showed a dick, yet no Targaryen titties have been shown yet.

I'm mad.

 

[Werewolf Jones]

Just like that Otto got the rug pulled from under him.

"You think yourself a cunning man."

First time Viserys went IN with a decision and it came from Rhaenerya.

 

[Elysion]

Regarding the incest, while it’s true that there was some dynastic incest in the middle ages, GRRM likes to go far beyond that for some reason. Remember, there’s not just the Targaryens, but Jaime and Cersei too. And let’s not forget that creepy wildling dude (Craster), who slept with his daughters, or that scene were Theon fingers his sister Asha. There are many other, smaller mentions of incest sprinkled all throughout the series, like the Fowler twins, who sometimes do threesomes with Arianne, or Euron, who is implied to have raped his brother. Furthermore, George originally planned for Jon and Arya to fall in love too – and that was before they would find out about Jon’s real parentage, meaning they wanted to bang while they still thought they were brother and sister. Thankfully George abandoned that idea when he wrote the later books, but the fact that he even considered it tells you a lot.

The point is, ASoIaF has way too much incest to just be ‘historically accurate’. It’s more likely to me that the idea actually turns George on.

 

[Tams]

derp
Why did I not pick up on this?

*EDIT*
Damn it, now you have made me over analyse this whole plot point.

Otto wants Raenyra tarnished
Mysaria and Daemon want Raenyra tarnished (I think).
Otto has no idea that Raenyra will leave her room and go out to town. Daemon and Mysaria do know this though.
I think the boy is Otto's spy and Mysaria told the boy where Daemon and Raenyra would be and paid him to tell Otto the information.

BUT

If Mysaria and Daemon want to tarnish Raenyra, why go to all that trouble of taking her to a whore house and trying to seduce her, why not just pay the boy to spread a lie about them? It didn't seem like Otto did any fact checking and just blindly believed the boy.

Because they're still two horny fucks.

 

[Slicker than your average]

This show is ok but just doesn't compare to series 1 GoT, not even half as good.

 

[mortal]

 

[DetectiveBananas]

Is anyone else having a hard time caring about these characters? We’re 4 episodes in and I’m just indifferent to the main characters. Wouldn’t care if anyone died. Is it the writing, acting, or lack of stakes outside of who gets to wear the crown? The White Walkers kept the stakes high with impending doom for all, but now what’s the big obstacle.
Not saying people are wrong if you’re really into this series. Just curious about other’s opinions at this point.

 

[Batiman]

Is anyone else having a hard time caring about these characters? We’re 4 episodes in and I’m just indifferent to the main characters. Wouldn’t care if anyone died. Is it the writing, acting, or lack of stakes outside of who gets to wear the crown? The White Walkers kept the stakes high with impending doom for all, but now what’s the big obstacle.
Not saying people are wrong if you’re really into this series. Just curious about other’s opinions at this point.

That was my biggest concern for the show before I started watching it. After the first episode that concern was still there. Now 4 episodes in I’m starting to grow on them. They’re not at game of thrones level yet honesty but they could get there.

4 episodes in game of thrones I didn’t like really like anyone besides Tyrion, Ned and maybe Jon? It’s with time that i grew to love them. Even someone like Theon, Jorah, Varys etc. TBH at first I didn’t like Robert Baretheon for the first few episodes

 

[NT80]

This show is ok but just doesn't compare to series 1 GoT, not even half as good.

I'm thinking the same thing so far. GOT had a complete book to go off and the first series stuck really close to that. This series I think is going off bits and pieces from history.
I would much prefer a series on Robert's Rebellion. Even though there isn't a book on it there's a lot of interesting material to go off.

 

[jason10mm]

I'm thinking the same thing so far. GOT had a complete book to go off and the first series stuck really close to that. This series I think is going off bits and pieces from history.
I would much prefer a series on Robert's Rebellion. Even though there isn't a book on it there's a lot of interesting material to go off.

There is far less coverage of Robert's rebellion than the life of Rhaenyra. Though in ASOIAF we do get first hand accounts of events. Presumably F&B part 2, should it ever get published, would flesh that out.

Dunk and Egg are the most fleshed out characters as they have dedicated novellas.

 

[DKehoe]

There is far less coverage of Robert's rebellion than the life of Rhaenyra. Though in ASOIAF we do get first hand accounts of events. Presumably F&B part 2, should it ever get published, would flesh that out.

Dunk and Egg are the most fleshed out characters as they have dedicated novellas.

Yeh The Dance of the Dragons is much more fleshed out than Robert's Rebellion. It's also just a much more interesting story with more twists and turns. Robert's Rebellion is pretty direct really. I don't really get wanting Robert's Rebellion adaptation outside of seeing young versions of characters we know. I guess more Rhaegar would be cool to see but he probably works best when you keep some mystery around him.

 

[NT80]

There is far less coverage of Robert's rebellion than the life of Rhaenyra. Though in ASOIAF we do get first hand accounts of events. Presumably F&B part 2, should it ever get published, would flesh that out.

Dunk and Egg are the most fleshed out characters as they have dedicated novellas.

Was that in the latest history books? I read one (world of ice and fire I think) a while back and didn't realize there were more. I don't know how interesting her story is or how authentic the TV series is.
I did find the stuff going on between Aerys and Tywin fascinating and wanted to know more about what happened between Rhaegar and Lyanna.

 

[jason10mm]

Was that in the latest history books? I read one (world of ice and fire I think) a while back and didn't realize there were more. I don't know how interesting her story is or how authentic the TV series is.
I did find the stuff going on between Aerys and Tywin fascinating and wanted to know more about what happened between Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Fire and Bllod is a vastly expanded history of the Targaryen from Aegon to just after Rhaenyra. So think of "World of Ice and Fire" as a 5th grade "world history" textbook and F&B is a college text on the first half of Targaryen rule.

 

[John Marston]

Even now on episode 5 everytime I see King Viserys all I see is the doofus clown cop Paddy Considine played in "Hot Fuzz"

 

[AJUMP23]

Red got his face beat in for his mouth writing a check his dance couldn’t cash.

On the preview for the next episode that one looked more interesting than the wedding. No real dragon stuff. We need more dragons.

 

[jason10mm]

Next ep is the time jump, so good bye to all the kid actors. Still not sure why they are beating down on poor viserys but he looks like SHIT next ep I suppose it is to explain why he doesn't put an end to all the squabbling. But he is gonna have like 2 more kids on Alicent but he looks like death warmed over already!

I thought this ep was too slow, but it made up for it in the end. Daemon's wife was waaaaaay too hot, she should have looked more shrewish. That whole scene was a bit silly, she dies in earshot of the castle and no one notices? Where have all the small folk gone anyway?

I wonder if they will stress the black (well, white now I guess) and the green.

If this was prime GoT years we'd have folks deckaring themselves a "goose". Bad writing though, Rhaenyra says she doesn't know why she prefers one over the other and then IMMEDIATELY says she finds the other too greasy. Guys, gotta be a little more subtle

 

[BadBurger]

In one brief exchange Otto displayed why he was Hand of the King. Vision, foresight.

And am I missing some obvious allusions with the way the director focused on the stirrups of horse riders so keenly? Seemed to make a show of it.

 

[jason10mm]

In one brief exchange Otto displayed why he was Hand of the King. Vision, foresight.

And am I missing some obvious allusions with the way the director focused on the stirrups of horse riders so keenly? Seemed to make a show of it.

Probably a response to that horse riding scene from Rings of Power last week.

Equestrians are a YUGE untapped audience, I tell yah!

I thought it was odd as well.

 

[BadBurger]

So many of the actors put on clinics this episode. Cole's break down on the boat as well as his exchange with the queen. Alicent's emotive, wordless realization of the truth. Otto's impassioned warning. Viserys's tortured questioning of his own rule. And more.

Shit, I know it's not exactly a competition, but damn are these writers, directors, and actors really showing up Amazon in this kind of stakeless battle between two fantasy franchises. Watching this then going to Rings of Power is like watching a group of professional athletes in the NBA compete, then going to your six year old's peewee basketball game.

 

[SlimySnake]

So many of the actors put on clinics this episode. Cole's break down on the boat as well as his exchange with the queen. Alicent's emotive, wordless realization of the truth. Otto's impassioned warning. Viserys's tortured questioning of his own rule. And more.

Shit, I know it's not exactly a competition, but damn are these writers, directors, and actors really showing up Amazon in this kind of stakeless battle between two fantasy franchises. Watching this then going to Rings of Power is like watching a group of professional athletes in the NBA compete, then going to your six year old's peewee basketball game.

I haven’t seen lotr yet but i found out last year that Amazon chose two guys with no real resume for TV or movies as showrunners. Its no surprise that it feels amateurish. Hbo has been doing this for decades.

And yes i loved this episode despite the fact that it had no action. Just good writing and acting.

 

[BadBurger]

How did I miss this post? I just giggled so hard I farted.

 

[BaneIsPain]

Pretty enjoyable episode. Sad for ser Criston Cole. It is a bit different from what happened to poor royce but still good nevertheless.
Time to pick sides.

 

[EviLore]

So many of the actors put on clinics this episode. Cole's break down on the boat as well as his exchange with the queen. Alicent's emotive, wordless realization of the truth. Otto's impassioned warning. Viserys's tortured questioning of his own rule. And more.

Shit, I know it's not exactly a competition, but damn are these writers, directors, and actors really showing up Amazon in this kind of stakeless battle between two fantasy franchises. Watching this then going to Rings of Power is like watching a group of professional athletes in the NBA compete, then going to your six year old's peewee basketball game.

Every scene can be carried entirely without dialogue or even a score, any time they choose. It really is a master class of acting, writing, and directing.

 

[Nobody_Important]

So I wanted to wait a bit to give my opinions. Sorry for the rant.


*ahem*


At first I thought the episode was fan-fucking-tastic. The acting was arguably the best of the entire series. GoT included. Paddy's mannerisms when he tries to give his speech, Rhaenyra making her pact with Laenor and his response, Otto's heartfelt warning to his daughter and the realization it was never about gain and more about her safety, and Alicent's slow recognition of betrayal. It was a god damn masterclass and I feel awful that some of these actors are going to miss out on awards just because someone else in the show is that much better.


BUT


As a book reader the Criston Cole drama and his brutal public execution Ser Joffery Lonmouth stuff leaves such a bad taste in my mouth that I can't look past it. There are so many plotholes made by that single act that I honestly cannot even know where to start to list them all.

- A Kingsguard killing a well known and popular noble in front of the nobles of the land as well as the King himself. Literally anyone who have read the books would know this is so unheard of that it defies belief. Not only would this death immediately piss off the Baratheons (who are the liege lords of the Lonmouths) but it would lead to the IMMEDIATE imprisoning/execution of the Kingsguard in question. Especially considering that Ser Joffery was incapacitated LONG before he was actually dead. It was literal murder in full view of the whole kingdom basically.

- Him doing so without any explanation. There is no explanation for how the fight started. Not a BIT. It just happens out of nowhere in the middle of the dancefloor because somehow a Kingsguard Knight is full ass silver armor and white cloak just got in there unnoticed and started murdering him. Not only THAT, but he just somehow is allowed to leave the crowded room after murdering a noble in cold blood with all his armor and weapons to go off himself. Only to be saved at the last minute by the Queen who just SOMEHOW knew where he was and what he was going to do????

- Him losing his fucking mind and all his character development just because he slept with Rhaenyra for a SINGLE time. This is an experienced man of war who lost his mind because his crush didn't want to abandon her life and her crown for him after sleeping with him a single time while she was drunk.

- Them carrying out the wedding ceremony with no witnesses aside from the two houses themselves in the wrecked remains of the feast with NO clean up at all. Joffery's blood is literally still on the floor.