Outside of MC I'm not convinced they need to be.
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Hearthstone |OT5| Corrupted Deeprock Salt
- Thread starter ZealousD
- Start date
Outside of MC I'm not convinced they need to be.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
How many more bullshit class cards do they need to be handed before it's a problem? A 1 drop and a 5 drop?
The only reason MC exists is because paladin secrets are mostly shit. That would be a really backwards way of balancing things.
When that one specific thing tends to be "win the game", there might be a problem.
I don't see how any additional murlocs could weaken the card. You just exclude the ones that don't add to the burst.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
MC's existence is also the shittiest most backwards way possible of shoehorning Paladin secrets not called Avenge into usability.
They don't need to add more murlocs to be a OTK
2 Grimscale Oracle
2 Bluegil warrior
2 Murloc warleader
1 Old Murk Eye
Gives you a total of 30 damage in 1 turn from an empty board
Mysterious Challenger is a broken-as-fuck card. You kill that card and you'll see a substantial drop in Paladins on ladder. I don't feel like Midrange Paladin or Murloc OTK are too strong right now. They have several counters and neither dominates. And even if Midrange Paladin was the strongest deck on ladder then that would actually be a pretty healthy place for Hearthstone to be because that deck isn't smorc or fatigue. It's one of the good guys as far as I'm concerned.
Reason why I am not too big on nerfing Minibot and Muster is because we are just at that place where those cards happen to be the best. Later on other classes might get equivalent 2/3 drops to compete.
Stuff like Anyfin, MC and Divine Favor are problematic cards from a design point beyond being just OP cards. These cards make sure that slow decks will never be good enough on Ladder.
OH and of course beyond those cards... Force of Nature remains a problem and so do the 3 main neutral cards Dr Balanced, Mad Scientist and Shredder. I think outside of these cards the game is fine. Just nerfing MC and FoN would open up more play styles and decks.
Stuff like Anyfin, MC and Divine Favor are problematic cards from a design point beyond being just OP cards. These cards make sure that slow decks will never be good enough on Ladder.
OH and of course beyond those cards... Force of Nature remains a problem and so do the 3 main neutral cards Dr Balanced, Mad Scientist and Shredder. I think outside of these cards the game is fine. Just nerfing MC and FoN would open up more play styles and decks.
RumblingRosco
Member
That is so bad. It is a complete card redesign the likes of which I can only recall ever happening with Unleash the Hounds.
I will give up secret paladin if FoN dies with it. That might lead to other shenanigans though....
sounds good
Sure Force is a class epic, but 9 more versatile charge damage would make Icehowl's 10 dmg even worse than it it is today and nobody ever plays that card.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
It looks like its been the minimally accepted period of cooldown between complaining about force of nature + savage roar
Fair point.
In a control match-up Icehowl ideally trades at least 2 for 1 and can swing the board around if your opponent cannot taunt up or use target removal on it. An Icehowl'd Force of Nature couldn't do that, but it would probably still see more play than Icehowl today. lol
New FoN would see a lot more play than Icehowl because doing granular damage in the game is better than doing singular big damage on a creature or doing one AOE damage. Because minions have Deathrattle and Divine Shields, FoN can clear more stuff. The new FoN can clear a Shredder and another small creature... something which Swipe and Starfall can't do.
As it is, a FoN might not even clear a single Shredder!
As it is, a FoN might not even clear a single Shredder!
When you Entomb the opponent's Sneed, Curator a second one, play both, pop a Kel'Thuzad out of one, and then play an Entomb'd Justicar to heal up to 30 to rub salt in the wound, AND their Justicar entered play by way of the Deathlord you Cabal Priested, so they never got its Battlecry....you smile, and you say GG.
Many things tend to "win the game". Getting one tick of Emperor with FoN + double SR (or just a single innervate) means you will pretty much win the next turn especially with additional minions left on the board. Getting double/single PO + Arcane Golem + Faceless means being able to do the same level of burst from hand.
For Anyfin to OTK, you need to play at least 3~ of the 5 murlocs (one of them has to be murkeye) and play both Anyfins against a tauntless board to win. The deck is much weaker in overall synergy compared to either midrange or secrets since you are playing sub-par stand-alone minions and 2 10mana spells that are useless if you don't draw into and play your murlocs. If you draw into both Anyfins in the first few turns, you are pretty much fucked in this tempo-based meta.
I am talking about opponents here, not the murloc pally. If other classes gets murloc cards on the level of murloc knight, it will be a direct nerf to Anyfin since they get added to the Anyfin revival pool.
Except that running Grimscales makes your deck weaker overall. The more refined lists only run:
2 Bluegil warrior
2 Murloc warleader
1 Old Murk Eye
...since they are at least half-decent cards on their own.
But I suppose if the deck becomes consistent enough like Patrons, Blizzard will just annihilate the deck anyways. ¯\_(ツ
_/¯Lmao this Priest mirror. Guy went for le epic mill super early on burning both his circles and wasn't running Lightbombs, so he could never clear my board well and I got to dictate trades. Justicars and Elises were pulled from Deathlords and entombed by the other player, Lightbombs were used to clear a single Cabal, I kept a Majordomo from Curator in hand just in case, the dumbest fucking shit. In the end I won because he had no cards left to monkey while I got a juicy 6 legendaries and Malganis the champ ate like 20 fatigue damage so I was free to heal minions whenever. Now you'll say "hold on dude that was pretty lucky pulling Malganis" to which I respond: I also had a Reno to nullify fatigue damage lmao
"Polish".
Seriously though, the spell animations and stuff give the game it's charm! Do wish they were a bit faster, especially the pop up "THIS CARD WAS PLAYED BY YOUR OPPONENT" animation that you have to click to close. It should be a few seconds faster at least.
I actually think Murloc Paladin has potential to be almost as good as pre-nerf Patron Warrior in terms of win-rates against all decks. It just needs a refined list of cards which I think I'm close to already. I've even beaten Freeze Mages which you'd think would be a bad matchup but it turned out to be very even because I'm running so many heals so I could take the game to fatigue and then combo them down to 1 health just like a Patron Warrior matchup.
It's not great against fast aggro, unlike Patron. Especially something like Face Hunter which doesn't really care about its board clears.
The list I'm running has 1x Zombie Chow, 2x Shielded Minibot, 2x Muster for Battle, 2x Doomsayers for early game clearing. I then recover with 2x Lay on Hands, 1x Healbot, 1x Sludge Belcher. The only aggro weakness right now is Doomhammer which I'm considering running a Harrison for.
Also 2x Bluegill Warriors can be used for clearing.
Murloc pally is like 80-20 vs face hunter...is like one of your best matchups. so much healing and board clears...
at least my control list Idk about midrange one, that one will lose like regular paladin I suppose.
poppedcollar69
Member
finally made a astral communion deck that can get past rank 19
We must be confusing lists then. The list I see as more popular these days is the one that runs stuff like Doomsayer, Pyro+Equality, Acolyte of Pain, Solemn Vigil, etc. It basically looks to stall and draw into the combo pieces rather than do midrange pally stuff.
I dunno. I guess I don't have too much experience against it with face hunter but every time I play an aggro deck against it I just kill them before they draw all their pieces.
We'd definitely be seeing a LOT more of it than we are now if it was really as good as Patron.
It's not at its refined state yet and IMO Secret Paladin can still wipe it out because Secret Paladin's Secrets can win the early tempo combined with the cheap minions and MC supplant the lead. And even Patron took some time to refine.
I am not sure if it will be Patron tier but it's definitely a tier 1 caliber deck.
I am not sure if it will be Patron tier but it's definitely a tier 1 caliber deck.
It's not seen a lot because it's slow, as slow as Freeze Mage. I don't run Acolytes because they're too low value without any way to self-damage it and they don't trade or clear anything. And also Secret Paladin is still a thing and it's slightly better because of how stupidly easy it is to play. It's basically the situation of "why play TGT cards when you can play patron EleGiggle".
Something crossed my mind earlier tonight, do you think a pre-nerf Starving Buzzard would see play in this meta? The Buzzard/Unleash combo feels like it would be too slow any more. I guess it might make Hunters a somewhat viable class on ladder again, but I don't know if it would be considered OP in a meta filled with Dr. Booms, Piloted Shredders and Mysterious Challengers.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Without a doubt.
TetraxShards
Member
100% yes. The swingiest combo with UTH and Timber Wolf in the history of the game.
Not to rag on MC too much, everyone knows that card is ridiculous. The SM thing is more emblematic of how all the different effects in the game put balance all over the place. Compare Shielded Minibot to the 2 drops that Warrior has..
Shielded Minibot: A 2/2 with Divine Shield. Not the most amazing stat line, but it is immune to practically all removal, even Earth Shock which removes the more expensive Scarlet Crusader. Against a Warrior with Fiery Win Axe, it's 6 damage to the face or Slam plus two damage to the face. Also, he's a Mech, so there is synergy with all sorts of other GvG toys.
Armorsmith: A 1/4 that heals/overheals for 1 point whenever a friendly gets hit. The effect is easy to activate with the Warrior's kit, and it trades favorably with most 1 health minions. She gets put in all but the fastest Warrior decks automatically despite the awkward statline.
Cruel Taskmaster: A 2/2 with a battlecry to deal 1 damage to a minion and give it +2 attack. Cheaper and more potential for favorable trading than the basic 3-drop Ironforge Rifleman, but if used on your own minions, you make it easier for the enemy to trade, so those extra attack points better be worth it. There's a reason why he's only really put in Control Warrior and then typically used for removal.
Alexstrasza's Champion: A 2/3 that becomes a 3/3 Charge if you have a Dragon card in your hand. I've played a deck that was built around this card by putting in Faerie Dragons and Azure Drakes. Great if the battlecry is used, otherwise just a Crocolisk.. and you're never going to mulligan for dragons since you always want a weapon in your starting hand.
Sparring Partner: A 3/2 Taunt that gives another minion Taunt. Practically unplayable on curve, unless you are OK with being forced to make your opponent's Flame Imp into a taunter. Marginally useful if it can be played with an otherwise useless card like Eerie Statue or Ancient Watcher, but there's no compelling reason to play this over Sunfury Protector.
Not one card that is really good on its own. They all require synergy and situational awareness. Shielded Minibot can be played at any time, on curve or out of curve, and you're virtually guaranteed to get extra value.
Uh, Fiery War Axe?
I was comparing minions. There's a reason it's often called the Fiery Win Axe. If we're going to go there, though, we're going to have to address Equality.
Since we're bound to get Muradin next set with the hint in the game now.. I have come with the best designed card in history of hearthstone that will help make warrior great again ;_;
I tried to capture avatar form in a hearthstone card and make a board clear for non tanky warrior, say midrange/dragon/patron that don't want to play brawl! tanky warrior might be able to use this still.
I tried to capture avatar form in a hearthstone card and make a board clear for non tanky warrior, say midrange/dragon/patron that don't want to play brawl! tanky warrior might be able to use this still.
You said "2 drops". Fiery War Axe is a card you play on Turn 2. Equality is not.
There's no meaningful reason to separate out the win axe here, especially since Paladins have no such luck for any worthwhile weapon in this slot.
While we are mentioning all the really good 2 drop class cards that warrior has, let's mention all the good 2 drop class cards that Paladin has besides shielded minibot.
....
Oh wait, that's right. Paladin Turn 2 was garbage as hell before shielded minibot was introduced.
Paladin clearly needed something to play on turn 2. What it got was all of its empty curve slots filled in with cards that have no downside and require no forethought to play. Shielded Minibot, Muster, Mysterious Challenger, they never seem to be the wrong answer. Warrior has to play its shit in the right order and interact very carefully just to keep up with how OP the Paladin's shit is, let alone get the upper hand. And then if the Paladin is stupid enough to somehow screw up with the fucking amazing kit he has, he can just draw more cards with Divine Favor.
taunt with cant attack heroes and mega windfury? Nobody will play this. Maybe if you make it a 8 cost 5/3 with mega windfury, it might be balance.
You'll hear no argument from me that warrior has serious problems right now, but I still don't advocate nerfing anything Paladin has right now except Mysterious Challenger.
If Shredder and Dr. Boom got their well deserved nerfs that would also knock Paladins down a peg.
If Shredder and Dr. Boom got their well deserved nerfs that would also knock Paladins down a peg.
This style of play is what paladin class is about. It's the board centric class, it's like the only class where you can tell if they can kill you next turn or not with just what's on board plus 4 in most cases. They have no burst damage instead they have good minions. Even aggro paladin isn't about huge burst. Murloc change that though, that card can be problematic. Now MC is just too broken even for this class but rest of their kit is still reasonable. Paladin isn't going to be able to play something more complex though with this design, they're about 'honest' fights, here are my dudes every turn, can you deal with them? It's simple but as long as the dudes aren't utterly broken like MC is, it should be fine and beatable.
It's supposed to clear board and protect your stuff not end the game and with taunt it makes it that your opponent can kill it. say like warsong patron combo was before but not as outrageous I guess. A 5 drop that can clear 4 other dudes potentially seems really good to me, it will probably top out at 3 before it dies but it can hit for 4 against paladin probably. It's a 6/6 btw. it's 24 damage.
It's supposed to clear board and protect your stuff not end the game and with taunt it makes it that your opponent can kill it. say like warsong patron combo was before but not as outrageous I guess. A 5 drop that can clear 4 other dudes potentially seems really good to me, it will probably top out at 3 before it dies but it can hit for 4 against paladin probably. It's a 6/6 btw. it's 24 damage.
Keeps feeling worse and worse honestly. Increasingly, the value of minions is baked into just being played, particularly in the early game. You can remove stuff like Scarab, Peddler, Finley, Saplings, etc., but they've already accomplished what they want to. It's like wasting swings.