buffing paladins this much hurt shaman too, it erased the class from the game until now that it's possible to play shaman but you have to just go face or concede. They didn't think it through. Paladin like hunter or warrior before should get nothing for like next two expansions so that maybe others can catch up on to its power level.
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Hearthstone |OT5| Corrupted Deeprock Salt
- Thread starter ZealousD
- Start date
I pay less and less attention to my Hearthstone games with each passing month. I give it my time because it has the potential to get better, and I'd rather not fall behind on the in game resources. I don't care about what's going on inside the games though. The design and balance really doesn't seem thoughtful enough for me to bother engaging with it on more than the most rudimentary level.
My feelings exactly, for constructed that is. Actual opportunities for plays that make me feel good for finding them - or just as importantly, not mind losing to an opponent who used their resources better than me - have become so incredibly rare that nothing really matters in the end.
And the times when you've managed to stabilize despite the general absence of board clears, be it from sick play or sick topdeck, decks have become so efficient that they can refill without effort while drawing cards in the process while you just had to burn a shitton of resources only to see another turn that really wasn't worth seeing.
Dunno about the TS list (theirs are often pretty crappy imo), is it Reynoodle's flood list again? Either way I've seen obscene amounts of standard Zoo in the past couple of days. Seems efficient enough for the last minute rank 5 rush if you don't have the dust for MCS.
Gentle Rodriguez
Member
Vivi why do you think deathrattle is terrible? I thought charge was the mechanic people hated.
deathrattle (especially stuff like shredders and boom bot) and charge is pretty bad, discovery is the direction they should be going if they want these types of things, there's still some RNG but atleast better players will be able to make better decisions on the cards they will pick.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
Sticky, hard to remove minions that make board wipes useless.
Deathrattle is an ok mechanic but the way it's used is bad. Unstable Ghoul deathrattle is fine but Shredder DR is garbage.
Also Deathrattle minions should be balanced by having less attack than normal. Like the Runts. Deathrattles should be value oriented minions not tempo based minions like Charge minions.
Charge minions have same problem. Stormwind Knight is fine because the attack value makes it a good trade minion but a bad face minion. Icehowl is fine too. What's not fine is Arcane Golem and Force of Nature.
The list is a standard one without voidcallers and with 2 dire wolves.
Let me specify that deathrattle isn't the issue per se, it's the type of "good on-curve body that leaves behind another good body" they started pushing with Naxx that's problematic, because it encourages mindless flooding that due to Blizzard's reluctance to print worthwhile board clears can never be answered appropriately.
There's a bunch of cool deathrattle cards like Death's Bite, Sylvanas, that taunt dragon or even Dark Cultist - cards that don't provide immediate hypervalue AND tempo just from being dropped but ideally require actual thought from both players to maximize/minimize their impact.
CelticKnight
Member
Just lost to Aggro Shaman on turn 5. 2 x Rockbiter Weapon's on a Doomhammer finished me off.
Ah, well... back to Secret Paladin it is then.
Ah, well... back to Secret Paladin it is then.
Gentle Rodriguez
Member
Alright that's about what I figured, I like the deathrattle mechanic itself but I agree that some of them are a bit too annoying to deal with.
What Dahbomb said the other day when he was trying to build classic-free decks was pretty interesting, if they tried the MTG way they'd run into a shitload of new issues.
Honestly they just need to print a ton of removals and board clears for once. Not sad jokes like Recycle and also not only big stuff like Entomb because it doesn't do shit against the tempo game, but a variety of well-costed cards for different purposes. They don't have to be in line with classic because minions aren't either. Make that silencing Flamestrike. Print a 6 mana Ice Nether. Go fucking wild.
Honestly they just need to print a ton of removals and board clears for once. Not sad jokes like Recycle and also not only big stuff like Entomb because it doesn't do shit against the tempo game, but a variety of well-costed cards for different purposes. They don't have to be in line with classic because minions aren't either. Make that silencing Flamestrike. Print a 6 mana Ice Nether. Go fucking wild.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
A board clear that also silences would be pretty broken as well, because silence is also kinda broken.
10 mana Twisting Nether that silences I guess?
10 mana Twisting Nether that silences I guess?
Haunted
Member
Gentle Rodriguez
Member
Cards that are like "destroy X but don't activate deathrattle" should be okay right? I feel like there's not a lot of options right now to remove a deathrattle minion cleanly. I'd really love a "do 2 damage to all enemy minions and don't activate deathrattle" kind of board clear, doesn't affect cards like Sylvanas too much(though it still does nerf her) but counters piloted, creepers, etc to a certain extent.
A format that bans classic cards would be the pretty awful for the game like I mentioned in my previous post.
A lot of the classes have very essential spells especially removals and board control that would cripple any form of control. Warlock would especially be affected as they wouldn't be able to use Hellfire, Shadowflame, Siphon Soul etc.
Blizzard has introduced very, very few spells in relation to minions since the classic set. A format like that would make the game even more about minion combat.
I have to imagine that a format change would involve Blizzard introducing a lot of new replacements to classic cards. Like for example a classic format wouldn't be so bad if Warlock got a new Hellfire that did not do face damage and a Siphon Soul that silenced before removing. That way they can buff some cards while nerfing/removing other cards.
A lot of the classes have very essential spells especially removals and board control that would cripple any form of control. Warlock would especially be affected as they wouldn't be able to use Hellfire, Shadowflame, Siphon Soul etc.
Blizzard has introduced very, very few spells in relation to minions since the classic set. A format like that would make the game even more about minion combat.
I have to imagine that a format change would involve Blizzard introducing a lot of new replacements to classic cards. Like for example a classic format wouldn't be so bad if Warlock got a new Hellfire that did not do face damage and a Siphon Soul that silenced before removing. That way they can buff some cards while nerfing/removing other cards.
I'm all for board clears being broken compared to the trash we currently have. A 7/8 mana silencing Flamestrike? You'd have to consider not playing into it because finally there'd be an actual punish. Sure at first glance it buffs Freeze Mage really hard, on the other hand you can then counter that with Kezan which becomes playable outside of Paladin in a meta where playing a 4/3 on 4 doesn't lose you the game thanks to real comeback tools.
Besides, I'm talking about all classes getting a variety of non-minion board control tools, each with their own themed flavor. I think the game would be strictly better for it.
Gentle Rodriguez
Member
Wilfred Fizzlebang > tap > Ysera
k
k
Where is my Bladestorm? Where is my Dragon's Roar? C'mon Blizz...
Karsticles
Member
Rank 15 get! Not bad for week 1. 
Like Dahbomb said, I think the problem isn't that deathrattle doesn't have enough counters, but that it isn't budgeted for reasonably. If Shredder were 4/3 for 5, or even 4/4 for 5, I think that would be more reasonable.
That said, I think the game's biggest problem is too few creature and spell mechanics. MtG has so many options that your mind is exploding with possibilities and combinations, but if you want to build X kind of deck in Hearthstone, the path is mostly clear and obvious once you know the cards.
Finally, I think it's a disservice to the game that there are so many character-exclusive cards. I think it would be interesting if some of the hero spells we see right now were revamped to be permanent character buffs when used. So instead of a Warrior just having Armor Up, he could equip another ability that lets him spend X mana for Y effect. Then you have dynamic and interesting character battles and choices to make as you go. Let THAT be the defining feature, the hero spell set, instead of heavily restricting card options.
I think that would be a more entertaining game in the long run. You could even incorporate turn cooldowns into it, and level heroes up for new abilities. Then it would have a very WoW-like feel to it, too.
Also, I want DoTs in this game.
Like Dahbomb said, I think the problem isn't that deathrattle doesn't have enough counters, but that it isn't budgeted for reasonably. If Shredder were 4/3 for 5, or even 4/4 for 5, I think that would be more reasonable.
That said, I think the game's biggest problem is too few creature and spell mechanics. MtG has so many options that your mind is exploding with possibilities and combinations, but if you want to build X kind of deck in Hearthstone, the path is mostly clear and obvious once you know the cards.
Finally, I think it's a disservice to the game that there are so many character-exclusive cards. I think it would be interesting if some of the hero spells we see right now were revamped to be permanent character buffs when used. So instead of a Warrior just having Armor Up, he could equip another ability that lets him spend X mana for Y effect. Then you have dynamic and interesting character battles and choices to make as you go. Let THAT be the defining feature, the hero spell set, instead of heavily restricting card options.
I think that would be a more entertaining game in the long run. You could even incorporate turn cooldowns into it, and level heroes up for new abilities. Then it would have a very WoW-like feel to it, too.
Also, I want DoTs in this game.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
Warriors need Titan's Grip. Two weapons at once! Find a way to make it work!
I'd also like to see more Shadowform effects for other classes. Like Boomkin or Bear for Druid or Metamorphosis for Warlock
I'd also like to see more Shadowform effects for other classes. Like Boomkin or Bear for Druid or Metamorphosis for Warlock
ArcticDonkey
Member
Howdy all.
Just started playing last week and I love it so far. I have what most be the most common new guy question. What's a decent deck to try work towards that isn't super expensive? I'm definitely most comfortable with mage and most of my decent drops from packs have been for that class. From what I've seen it seems that Dr. Boom is THE card to work towards. I haven't done an ounce of crafting since I started playing.
I'm still getting a feel for things in terms of card synergy. I generally go 1-5 in the arena.
Also, is there any chance that any of the expansions ever go on sale? They're all pretty pricey for me and I'm having a hard time deciding which one to go for.
Just started playing last week and I love it so far. I have what most be the most common new guy question. What's a decent deck to try work towards that isn't super expensive? I'm definitely most comfortable with mage and most of my decent drops from packs have been for that class. From what I've seen it seems that Dr. Boom is THE card to work towards. I haven't done an ounce of crafting since I started playing.
I'm still getting a feel for things in terms of card synergy. I generally go 1-5 in the arena.
Also, is there any chance that any of the expansions ever go on sale? They're all pretty pricey for me and I'm having a hard time deciding which one to go for.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
I generally feel like HS has done a good job transferring stuff like classes, abilities and raid bosses to the game, but one stickler is that as it stands, theres no DoT effects.
Ok, theres corruption which is utter garbage. But Affliction warlocks got nothing (something like Haunt or Unstable Affliction that would require you to unfavorably trade a minion or even silence your own would be cool if implemented well) and if Death Knights come, what will they do then?
Edit: I guess Curse of Rafaam is kinda DoT?
Ok, theres corruption which is utter garbage. But Affliction warlocks got nothing (something like Haunt or Unstable Affliction that would require you to unfavorably trade a minion or even silence your own would be cool if implemented well) and if Death Knights come, what will they do then?
Edit: I guess Curse of Rafaam is kinda DoT?
If they remove classic set might as well remove rogue from the game because rogue really got nothing since classic except one spell (oil) in gvg.
Whoever is responsible on for that class is doing really badly. Every set it's just either joke or gimmick cards. It's hilarious that rogue still doesn't have a 2 drop you can actually play on turn 2. It's like you're forever doomed to daggers on turn 2. With a base kit like that cards like raptor don't make any sense. At one point it was feasible to forfeit turn 1 and turn 2 to have a decent turn 3 for rogue, but it's getting close to impossible these days. You can just lose on turn 3 against a face shaman.
Whoever is responsible on for that class is doing really badly. Every set it's just either joke or gimmick cards. It's hilarious that rogue still doesn't have a 2 drop you can actually play on turn 2. It's like you're forever doomed to daggers on turn 2. With a base kit like that cards like raptor don't make any sense. At one point it was feasible to forfeit turn 1 and turn 2 to have a decent turn 3 for rogue, but it's getting close to impossible these days. You can just lose on turn 3 against a face shaman.
I don't think that Hearthstone should be the kind of game where classes are getting a new board clear every expansion. Having more board clears only helps you if you are playing some kind of fatigue strategy (which are awful) or you're playing a Reno deck.
The problem just stems more from Blizzard printing all of these extremely efficient sticky minions that are impossible to punish. You can't really punish minibot. You can't really punish shredder. You can't really punish haunted creeper. Blizzard balances these sticky minions by assuming faster is better (see Ironforge Rifleman vs Razorfen Hunter vs Harvest Golem) and that isn't necessarily true.
More board clears doesn't actually fix this problem. More efficient taunts would, though. If Blizzard printed a much bigger version of Arcane Nullifier that might actually be pretty awesome.
People complain that overload is holding back Shaman, but I actually think Combo is a worse mechanic. And I think Combo is what is holding back Rogue.
The problem just stems more from Blizzard printing all of these extremely efficient sticky minions that are impossible to punish. You can't really punish minibot. You can't really punish shredder. You can't really punish haunted creeper. Blizzard balances these sticky minions by assuming faster is better (see Ironforge Rifleman vs Razorfen Hunter vs Harvest Golem) and that isn't necessarily true.
More board clears doesn't actually fix this problem. More efficient taunts would, though. If Blizzard printed a much bigger version of Arcane Nullifier that might actually be pretty awesome.
People complain that overload is holding back Shaman, but I actually think Combo is a worse mechanic. And I think Combo is what is holding back Rogue.
Karsticles
Member
Alright, so here is my current deck, which I'm going to rock and improve until I "complete" it while building some other stuff on the side. All cards are x2:
Power Overwhelming (Dahbomb convinced me to put this back in, and I am glad I did)
Abusive Sergeant (necessary)
Flame Imp (necessary?)
Leper Gnome (LOVE this guy's attack cry)
Acidic Swamp Ooze (not a big fan, but it helps against Paladins and Warriors)
Dire Wolf Alpha (so-so on this card; it has won matches for me, though)
Haunted Creeper (happy with this)
Ironbeak Owl (not a fan of the creature, but it's a necessity)
Knife Juggler (duh)
Nerubian Egg (probably my favorite card in this deck)
Argent Horserider (I wouldn't mind replacing him in the future)
Hellfire (I added this back in for when I fall behind, and as a way to activate Egg)
Imp-plosion (the best card in this deck IMO)
Doomguard (I hate discarding, but I love Charge, and he's huge and cheap)
Reckless Rocketeer (more charge to finish opponents off past the early phase)
What should I work toward next? I wish there were a way to track a deck's win/loss stats, because I think this one is like 12-5 right now.
Also, why are there no mana-activated abilities on creatures? There are no creatures with abilities like "Click to spend 2 mana and shoot a firebolt". That NEEDS to happen. Creatures are incredibly basic in this game.
Also, WHERE IS MY FELHUNTER? He was my BFF in WoW.
Power Overwhelming (Dahbomb convinced me to put this back in, and I am glad I did)
Abusive Sergeant (necessary)
Flame Imp (necessary?)
Leper Gnome (LOVE this guy's attack cry)
Acidic Swamp Ooze (not a big fan, but it helps against Paladins and Warriors)
Dire Wolf Alpha (so-so on this card; it has won matches for me, though)
Haunted Creeper (happy with this)
Ironbeak Owl (not a fan of the creature, but it's a necessity)
Knife Juggler (duh)
Nerubian Egg (probably my favorite card in this deck)
Argent Horserider (I wouldn't mind replacing him in the future)
Hellfire (I added this back in for when I fall behind, and as a way to activate Egg)
Imp-plosion (the best card in this deck IMO)
Doomguard (I hate discarding, but I love Charge, and he's huge and cheap)
Reckless Rocketeer (more charge to finish opponents off past the early phase)
What should I work toward next? I wish there were a way to track a deck's win/loss stats, because I think this one is like 12-5 right now.
Also, why are there no mana-activated abilities on creatures? There are no creatures with abilities like "Click to spend 2 mana and shoot a firebolt". That NEEDS to happen. Creatures are incredibly basic in this game.
Yes, I would play Metamorphosis Warlock.
Also, WHERE IS MY FELHUNTER? He was my BFF in WoW.
That's a great idea for a card.
I think it would be cool to have Corruption deal 1 damage per player turn to whatever you put it on. It could have synergy with "do X when this character takes damage" cards, but also put pressure on a player, kind of like that crappy curse card.
Big taunts = slow to react/play = harder punish with silence
Until a taunt is printed that can't get targeted by enemy minions, taunts aren't going to do much. People have been using the same Belcher taunt since Naxx god damn it!
Inspire minions are basically the equivalent of that.
Until a taunt is printed that can't get targeted by enemy minions, taunts aren't going to do much. People have been using the same Belcher taunt since Naxx god damn it!
Also, why are there no mana-activated abilities on creatures? There are no creatures with abilities like "Click to spend 2 mana and shoot a firebolt". That NEEDS to happen. Creatures are incredibly basic in this game
Karsticles
Member
Well, there is the mech that can't be targetted by spells or abilities. Doesn't that include minions?
Hell no. That's what ZealousD was talking about, that we need a bigger version of that. Except that aggro decks would still Owl it and continue to go to face.
I am saying we need a taunt minion that can't be targeted by enemy minions. That way you can't get it Keepered, Uldaman'd, Owled etc. If people spend removals on it then that's fine because aggro decks really only hold burn spells. A 3/6 taunt absorbing a Fireball is fine.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
Fel Hunter - 4 mana 3/5 demon, silence an enemy.
boom. Lock only obv
boom. Lock only obv
Also I think situational and class specific silences are fine. The Owl variant of silences are bad although still necessary for the game because otherwise new players wouldn't stand a chance against buffed up taunts.
Lmao @ 3/5 demon.... sub consciously designing around Shredder.
Lmao @ 3/5 demon.... sub consciously designing around Shredder.
Karsticles
Member
Rank 14?! :-O
Balancing the game around taunts is dumb, and it's a bad mechanic anyway. Common creatures locking down the entire opposition...
I think 2/5 with spell immunity and silence would be the perfect fit for Felhunter. Sums up what he does in WoW. That little guy and I went everywhere together...
Taunt is the only thing that forces minion interaction otherwise everyone would just go face all day. You can't block/defend with minions in this game like other card games.
Most taunts are pretty weak for the stats too so unless you are using weenie creatures you can kill them easily. Only Deathlord is a very strong taunt but it has a potentially huge draw back.
Most taunts are pretty weak for the stats too so unless you are using weenie creatures you can kill them easily. Only Deathlord is a very strong taunt but it has a potentially huge draw back.
Karsticles
Member
Right, but I think that's the problem. The game only has two options:
1) No one can block anything.
2) Everything is blocked by the taunt.
There needs to be a middle ground.
veloxStrix
Banned
A couple of my friends challenged me to build a deck for this weeks brawl. The rules were:
- No Malygos
- No Hobgoblin/Stormwind Champion
- No Mage/Rogue/Priest/Warlock
- No Legendary Cards over 6 Mana
So I ended up coming up with this. Won 8/10 games I played, losing only to some ridiculous Fatigue Warrior and an insane Malygos Rogue draw (Coin, Coldlight, Thaurissan). I thought it was one of the more unique decks I've seen for the Brawl so I figured I would share.
veloxStrix
Banned
It took me a second to think of it myself, honestly. King of Beasts was a surprise combo piece as well.
I think Mukla's Champion probably falls into the spirit of Hobgoblin and Stormwind, but no one specifically mentioned it so....
I mean it's not just the hyper-aggro decks that efficient taunts counter. Some aggro/tempo decks don't even run owl. The efficient taunts that are in the game help counter the sticky stuff because it usually means your opponent has to pop their crap and you can follow up with a board clear. Belcher is how haunted creepers and shredders get popped. It's how minibot loses its shield.
I just think the game needs cards that can slow down or punish the sticky and dirty stuff that gets played, without contributing to bullshit fatigue or freeze strategies. I want midrange to make a comeback. Nobody really plays midrange anymore, except for Druid and (sorta) Paladin. And honestly that feels like the pace that Hearthstone feels like it was really designed for. Don't decide games by Turn 6 or Turn 30. Have them decided by Turn 15.
WesternHeretic
Member
Dahbomb got you playing zoo SMH. That's not Dormmamu at all!
I think Freeze mages became my most hated deck to play against.
Secret Paladins are assholes, but at least they beat you quickly. Freeze mages are just 0% fun to play against AND the match takes longer than you wanted it to.
Edit: Also, why is EVERYONE playing meta decks in Casual? I just want some gold damn it. ;~; Go plague Ladder.
Secret Paladins are assholes, but at least they beat you quickly. Freeze mages are just 0% fun to play against AND the match takes longer than you wanted it to.
Edit: Also, why is EVERYONE playing meta decks in Casual? I just want some gold damn it. ;~; Go plague Ladder.
Welcome! Glad you are having fun
Both Mech and Tempo Mage are relatively cheap Mage decks that can get you some wins on ladder. You can win games without Boom or Antonidas, but they help provide additional win conditions if/when you can afford them. However, tempo requires blackrock mountain, and also works well with Ethereal Conjurer. *ALL* Mage decks are going to require Naxx for Mad Scientist.
So far there has been no news about discounted adventures. The only blizzard discounts were the pre sale and Winter Veil events. Your best bet to save a little cash is if have access to the Amazon android store (either through a device or emulation), you can make your purchases with Amazon coins and usually purchase them at a discount.
TetraxShards
Member
Dr. Boom Super Bass is too good.
It's stupid but I want a full length Scatman Curator song.
Gentle Rodriguez
Member
I want to play arena since I had a lot of fun in my first run(somehow 7 Wins too), but the thirst for packs is too real. Every pack is still giving me mostly new cards so it's hard to stop.