-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Hearthstone |OT5| Corrupted Deeprock Salt
- Thread starter ZealousD
- Start date
He played Aggro Druid, won some lost some to complete the quest.
Then played his Fatigue Warrior deck, got crushed by Combo Druid and Tempo Mage... made salty tirade about brain dead aggro decks in Constructed then went to Arena.
I played some Constructed games just for the hell of it and every time someone played Mad Scientist, Shredder, Dr Boom, Void Caller, Belcher, Minibot I just thought to myself "man the game is going to be so different with these cards out". It's actually shocking how many of these cards make up what you see online.
BananasWithGuns
Member
You know, if they're going to nerf Druid combo can they just do it like...fucking now?
Gentle Rodriguez
Member
My shitty tempo mage deck is mostly unaffected except for flamecannon and unstable portal, and KT I guess but he wasn't ideal anyway.
The entirety of mech mage basically doesn't exist anymore though lol.
Edit: I forgot scientist, okay that kinda sucks to lose in my deck but we'll see what mage gets to make up for it.
The entirety of mech mage basically doesn't exist anymore though lol.
Edit: I forgot scientist, okay that kinda sucks to lose in my deck but we'll see what mage gets to make up for it.
Officerrob
Banned
Cards Kripp said he would nerf:
Savage Roar, Keeper of the Grove, Ancient of Lore, Ironbeak Owl, Knife Juggler, BGH, Alextrasza, and Molten Giant
Savage Roar, Keeper of the Grove, Ancient of Lore, Ironbeak Owl, Knife Juggler, BGH, Alextrasza, and Molten Giant
BumperLips
Member
Only one that surprised me was Ironbeak Owl. But I totally agree, fuck that little shit bird.
The worst kind of fun killer., same as BGH. At least with Spellbreaker they commit 4 mana.
About what most people have said minus Keeper of the Grove and Ancient of Lore. That's a bit over the top going in on Druid considering that quite a few people want Innervate nerfed too.
Innervate definitely belongs in the discussion because there will be cards like Savage Combatant down the line that are absolutely bonkers when Innervated early. It's one of those cards that you need to keep in mind when designing neutrals and Druid cards. A lot of people have probably not experienced by a Savage Combatant that is Innervated out early and isn't answer basically wins the Druid the game by itself because it's like getting a Molten Giant out on turn 2 and you take 8 damage every turn.
I am not sure about Molten Giant though, I think it's a cool comeback mechanic in the game. Alex is definitely a problem in the long term.
I honestly think that the real problem in the combo is the FoN part. If you make those non charge minions that hit for 3 on board then that would be a better change. SR adds like 6 damage if you have 2 minions, that's alright in my book. It can probably be changed to 4 mana though.
Juggler is far less threatening without Haunted Creeper, general Deathrattle minions, Muster and Implosion. Only other thing that impacts Juggler greatly is UTH. I still think they should nerf the card because it limits design space of future cards. They can't for example create token generators in feature of it being broken with Juggler.
Owl shouldn't exist and if it does it should be moved to being a Hunter only card or something. If people want to use Silence then they should be using the more expensive Spellbreaker.
Kibler talking about Standard format:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUupMooIJYo
Too long, didn't watch version:
-Kibler and other HS community members took part in a summit in September discussing formats
-He thinks that having formats are the way to go, and he gives a bunch of reasons why
-He questions the decision of making basic/classic part of Standard now and forever, and gives some reasons why.
I agree with Kibler. I was thinking about the formats question quite some time ago, even before this September summit supposedly took place
. And even back then I was thinking Blizzard would go in the direction of having a rolling "core" set like Magic that changes every couple of years.
Kibler kind of touches on how much it would suck if basic/classic cards had to get nerfed rather than moved into the wild format, using Knife Juggler as an example. If they nerf Knife Juggler, then he's nerfed in both standard and wild. But I also think there's an issue with current cards that are ridiculously underpowered being a part of the Standard set now and forever. We're going to have to live with Magma Rager forever. We're going to have to live with Booty Bay Bodyguard forever. We're going to have to live with Warsong Commander forever. Dalaran Mage. Silverback Patriarch. Ironforge Rifleman. War Golem. Thrallmar Farseer. Priestess of Elune. These cards are bad. They have always been bad. And they always will be bad. But we're going to be stuck with them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUupMooIJYo
Too long, didn't watch version:
-Kibler and other HS community members took part in a summit in September discussing formats
-He thinks that having formats are the way to go, and he gives a bunch of reasons why
-He questions the decision of making basic/classic part of Standard now and forever, and gives some reasons why.
I agree with Kibler. I was thinking about the formats question quite some time ago, even before this September summit supposedly took place
(reminder: I still totally called this shit)
Kibler kind of touches on how much it would suck if basic/classic cards had to get nerfed rather than moved into the wild format, using Knife Juggler as an example. If they nerf Knife Juggler, then he's nerfed in both standard and wild. But I also think there's an issue with current cards that are ridiculously underpowered being a part of the Standard set now and forever. We're going to have to live with Magma Rager forever. We're going to have to live with Booty Bay Bodyguard forever. We're going to have to live with Warsong Commander forever. Dalaran Mage. Silverback Patriarch. Ironforge Rifleman. War Golem. Thrallmar Farseer. Priestess of Elune. These cards are bad. They have always been bad. And they always will be bad. But we're going to be stuck with them.
Blizzard, Blizzard never changes.
They might buff old cards next year if they feel the play is being limited to a few cards.
Or they add more cards to classic from other previous sets to make it more well rounded.
Thing is that Blizzard can change their philosophy. No one even thought they would be making 10+ balance changes to old ass cards but that's apparently coming too.
Or they add more cards to classic from other previous sets to make it more well rounded.
Thing is that Blizzard can change their philosophy. No one even thought they would be making 10+ balance changes to old ass cards but that's apparently coming too.
Officerrob
Banned
How far off do we think all this is? Doesn't this go against Brode's previous video of announcing stuff too far in advance?
BGH is too important as a counter to giants to remove from the game. I think you could comfortably knock down its stats to a 3/2 or something just to make the tempo BGH sting a bit more.
People are way too hard on Owl. They're just salty about hyper-aggro decks breaking through their taunts. There's a place for those kinds of decks and you need owl to enable them. And in any other scenario nobody gives a rats ass.
People are way too hard on Owl. They're just salty about hyper-aggro decks breaking through their taunts. There's a place for those kinds of decks and you need owl to enable them. And in any other scenario nobody gives a rats ass.
April-ish.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUupMooIJYo
Kibler on the new format. Blizzard apparently gathered a lot of community guys back in September to talk about the issue.
Not if it's coming at the start of the next season. They still have to reveal the new expansion and the nerfed basic cards.
Kibler on the new format. Blizzard apparently gathered a lot of community guys back in September to talk about the issue.
Not if it's coming at the start of the next season. They still have to reveal the new expansion and the nerfed basic cards.
Officerrob
Banned
5 months between content launches seems like a long time. Two more months of current Hearthstone sounds like death
Also, Healbot should never go away, that card is 100% essential
Karsticles
Member
The difference between MtG and HS is that HS has hardly any cards to choose from.
In MtG, each constructed play period has a Base/Core set like HS, but this consists of as many as 400 cards across 5 "classes" that are reprinted. That's 80 cards to fill your deck with. HS has about half of that between Basic/Classic.
Then, each MtG expansion has another 200-300 cards it adds, again across 5 colors. HS expansions seem to be around 150, and that's across NINE classes.
Basically, HS doesn't add anywhere near as many options for play that MtG does. That's something to consider. Someone might say that HS decks are 30 cards, while MtG decks are 60, but MtG decks can have 4 copies of each card, effectively making them the same deck size. EXCEPT, MtG also require land cards which are usually ~20 cards in a deck. That means the real comparison is (assuming x2 and x4 for each card, respectively) 15 unique HS cards per deck vs. 10 unique MtG cards per deck. So MtG has more options and fewer cards per deck, which means you'll end up seeing more variety instead of Goblin Shredder and Haunted Spider 200 games in a row.
In MtG, each constructed play period has a Base/Core set like HS, but this consists of as many as 400 cards across 5 "classes" that are reprinted. That's 80 cards to fill your deck with. HS has about half of that between Basic/Classic.
Then, each MtG expansion has another 200-300 cards it adds, again across 5 colors. HS expansions seem to be around 150, and that's across NINE classes.
Basically, HS doesn't add anywhere near as many options for play that MtG does. That's something to consider. Someone might say that HS decks are 30 cards, while MtG decks are 60, but MtG decks can have 4 copies of each card, effectively making them the same deck size. EXCEPT, MtG also require land cards which are usually ~20 cards in a deck. That means the real comparison is (assuming x2 and x4 for each card, respectively) 15 unique HS cards per deck vs. 10 unique MtG cards per deck. So MtG has more options and fewer cards per deck, which means you'll end up seeing more variety instead of Goblin Shredder and Haunted Spider 200 games in a row.
BGH is maybe the single worst designed card in modern TCG history. It is the dumbest, most destructive card in all of Hearthstone and always has been.
This is a card that ensures that any minion with 7 or more attack would be BETTER by having their stat line reduced (which is unbelievably dumb). It ensures that any expensive card with more than 7 attack is unviable or close to unviable without an asinine effect. There are a dozen good cards in Hearthstone that are complete trash solely because this card exists.
It would be far, far better to nerf the giants and remove BGH than simply nerf BGH.
BGH's stat-line is absolutely irrelevant. It could be a 1-1, and it would still be the same pile of shit.
Silence is a mini-BGH in the sense that it removes important, expensive effects for no mana, enabling a massive tempo shift for no good reason.
It doesn't completely shit on the design process of the game like BGH does, so it can stay - but it needs to take a hit.
I agree with the other guy that making BGH hit 8 or higher target seems appropriate now that Dr Boom is banned. It will give classic cards like Illidan a chance to shine.
Owl is problematic to the game for several reasons:
*It's a cheap silence for EVERYONE to use.
*It stomps all over Spellbreaker which serves the same purpose because it's cheap.
*It having the beast tag makes it a combo enabler for Hunter despite Spellbreaker also not having an equivalent tag that someone else can take advantage of.
*It's not just about disabling taunt but countering cool effects in the game. It's essentially another BGH in the game that prevents usage of slower and cooler Legendaries.
I think they should just make it a Hunter card. Shaman already has two silences, Mage has two silences, Priest has 2 silences, Druid has 1 silence etc. Paladin and Warrior don't have Silence and CW can just use Spellbreaker if need be. Only class that is most affected by this change is Warlock and IMO they should get a silence card of their own (that is more interesting of course). Rogue has Sap and Vanish to get around the need for using Silence effects.
It's more like 3 months. We were unlocking the last LOE cards in mid-December.
It could be sooner, but considering this is going to be a full set, I think we'll get a bit of a warning. For TGT it was like 5 weeks of build-up before the release.
Gentle Rodriguez
Member
I liked the idea someone gave of BGH dealing 5 damage to 7+ attack minions, still a decent counter but not completely anti-fun.
That just shifts the design burden.
Blizzard can't design a good 8 attack minion without making it's effect completely broken because that card exists.
That's much better, actually.
In one year HS adds like 2 adventures and one expansion. Plus Standard is already using a previous Expansion (TGT) and Adventures (LoE/BRM). I think in a year Blizzard ends up adding like 300 cards or something to the game.
Also it's very likely that this next expansion might have more cards than normal to make a bit for having no GvG/Naxx.
Gentle Rodriguez
Member
Oh by the way, does Ball of Spiders still work? I think it should right?
And are cards like Gorillabot just useless now?
And are cards like Gorillabot just useless now?
It works but it won't give you Naxx/GvG beasts.
That really depends on the new expansion. Only mech worth playing is Harvest Golem.
BigJonsson
Member
I'm glad I didn't spend my dust on a GvG legendary last week, I'll just save it until the changes go into effect
Not necessarily true. Fel Reaver would actually be worse as a 6/8. You'd be dealing with the same drawback and you wouldn't have the same reach. You'd be paying that huge price for only like 3hp, effectively.
Not even remotely true. If BGH was made a 1/1 then it would be like a shitty version of Shadow Word: Death, and nobody calls that card problematic. The ability to play BGH for tempo gives the card some level of viability in any matchup where a giant minion will not be featured and that is a very important consideration when you are putting him in a deck.
Are we seriously getting to the point where people are calling silence a problem again? WHATYEARISIT.JPG
Owl is a niche tech card that barely sees play outside of hyper-aggro decks. Having an owl silence a Sylvanas or Cairne or whatever is NOT a problem. Jesus.
It really doesn't. Are people forgetting the era where Control Warrior ran Spellbreaker over Owl?
For that matter, remember when Control Warrior ran silence at all?
Gentle Rodriguez
Member
Good point, I keep forgetting to take that into account.
I almost crafted several mech cards to start building a mech mage deck, good thing I just found out that entire deck is going to be useless soon.
Karsticles
Member
I think Owl is fine, but I play aggro. 
Warlock's Felhunter should have silence and spell immunity.
People have always complained about Silence.
It was just put on the back burner because stuff like MC, Dr Boom, Shredder were more problematic.
Now those cards are either nerfed because other cards are banned or those cards are banned themselves. So the focus is back on the basic/classic cards mainly stuff like the combo, BGH and silence.
Just because Sylvanas and Cairne are the best target for silence right now doesn't mean we won't get better Silence targets in the future.
It was just put on the back burner because stuff like MC, Dr Boom, Shredder were more problematic.
Now those cards are either nerfed because other cards are banned or those cards are banned themselves. So the focus is back on the basic/classic cards mainly stuff like the combo, BGH and silence.
Just because Sylvanas and Cairne are the best target for silence right now doesn't mean we won't get better Silence targets in the future.
You want Savage Roar to be a worse Bloodlust? I always felt like the answer to this question has never been messing with SR much, it's been FoN.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
Yes, but only Sylvanas, Thalnos and Cairne are really good out of those legs. Since there will be no dark cultist, you wont have the massive class card bonus, so dunno if Curator will still be run.
Fel Reaver is a very unique card and the only exception to the rule. It's only 5 mana, so you can't simply BGH it and then throw down a bunch of other crap for a massive tempo shift like you can if you're hitting a 7-8-9-10 mana card.
You won't see too many other 7+ attack minions at lower mana curves, and if you do they will have massive drawbacks just like Fel Reaver to balance them out.
Oh no, the pool to discover from is definitely worse now. Just curious how many legendaries are still available after going from 30ish deathrattle minions to 14.
BananasWithGuns
Member
Man, I can't wait to see the new expansion at his point. I get the impression Blizzard is going to put out some pretty crazy stuff.
toddhunter
Member
Why? Surely they can just buff the cards here and there.
Also Dalaran Mage is not a bad card. It excels in spell power Rogue.
Officerrob
Banned
They are going to need to, several classes are really going to be hurting
As for Blizzard buffing cards, I'll believe it when I see it. When was the last time that was done, beta?
Karsticles
Member
I just went on B.net forums...woah, people are flipping out about that announcement.
Blizzard is defined by conservatism.
Blizzard is defined by conservatism.
Can you point to the sentence where Kibler says "Owl should be removed from the game" or "Owl needs to be nerfed"?
With Owl and BGH back in people's sights I seriously have a challenge for everybody. Go into your decks and actually count and tell me how many of your decks actually include Owl or BGH these days.
I'll put up or shut up here. I have Hybrid Hunter, Tempo Mage, Raptor Rogue, Zoo, Aggro Shaman, Control Priest, Aggro Druid, Patron Warrior, and Secret Paladin as my lineup. I have a single Owl in my Hybrid Hunter and zero BGHs.
Most streamers today agree with me that Savage Roar is the problem, not Force of Nature.
FoN is a completely fair card on it's own. You get a weak six mana board clear basically, or a weak 6 damage push.
Savage Roar on the other hand works perfectly fine in aggressive low curve decks and can enable a turn 4-5 win. That deck is stupid, but not popular, because combo is so strong. Many of it's pieces are still in place.
"A worse Bloodlust" would only be true if the classes had the same supporting cards. That nerf doesn't eliminate combo, it just makes it a three attacker/12 damage push and prevents innervate into double combo. Not buffing the Druid makes cards like Senjin good counters, which is important because Belcher and Loatheb are gone.
Officerrob
Banned
8 decks, 3 single owls, 5 single BGH's. With that said, I actively stay away from decks like Secret Pally and Aggro Shaman
Six of my nine decks are running BGH right now.
Probably because I don't expect to win on turn 6 with any of them, like you should with all that aggro bullshit. The one deck you're running that isn't super aggressive is the deck with eight million kinds of hard removal.
You kind of miss the point anyway. There will never be a good 7+ attack card in Hearthstone because BGH exists UNLESS that card is stupidly broken like Boom. If a new meta-defining card came out at 7 mana, BGH is tech'd into every deck to make it shit.
BananasWithGuns
Member
Savage Roar should be 4 mana if the current text stays the same, no question. Right now it's two mana cheaper than Bloodlust yet has a stronger effect until at least 3 minions are on the board. That's just nuts.
If they completely overhauled Force of Nature though I wouldn't be totally opposed to Savage Roar staying the same.
You're not wrong but with the amount of times Ben Brode has talked about certain cards restricting future cards they can make this seems like an easy way to finally alleviate that. So I have to imagine they have some pretty big/unique ideas for stuff they want to do in the next expansion and this is a good way to do that without jeopardizing the health of the game.
And I have to imagine Blizzard probably won't care if Wild becomes full of brokenly strong decks since they seem to be intent on supporting Standard as the premiere way to play Hearthstone.
If they completely overhauled Force of Nature though I wouldn't be totally opposed to Savage Roar staying the same.
You're not wrong but with the amount of times Ben Brode has talked about certain cards restricting future cards they can make this seems like an easy way to finally alleviate that. So I have to imagine they have some pretty big/unique ideas for stuff they want to do in the next expansion and this is a good way to do that without jeopardizing the health of the game.
And I have to imagine Blizzard probably won't care if Wild becomes full of brokenly strong decks since they seem to be intent on supporting Standard as the premiere way to play Hearthstone.
That's an unfair question right now because the meta game right now doesn't demand BGH or much silence. Most games are over before Dr Balanced even comes down. It's just too tempo driven to use those cards.
If the game shifts (and it WILL shift) then those cards would come back. If the meta gave is dominated by Handlock, Control Warrior and Hunter then you will see A LOT of Owls and BGHs.
In my decks right now I have BGH in the following decks:
Renolock, Combo Druid, Control Warrior
Owl in the following decks:
Zoolock, Midrange Hunter, Secret Paladin (I used to have other variants of Hunter decks and all used at least one Owl, most used two)
If I had a Midrange Paladin deck then I would use both BGH and Owl in it.
Now look at your own decks and realize that 7 of them are aggressive decks. Why the hell would you be using BGH in aggressive decks to begin with? Can you even guarantee that aggressive decks will remain dominant? This is like me making 9 different Shaman decks in my collection and being like "guys I don't have any Owls in my deck.. Owl is totally fine!"
I think we glossed over the biggest news: Kripp has a puppy!
Big Game Hunter is going to vanish instantly without Dr. Boom (unless Handlock becomes huge again). It simply won't be useful frequently enough to be worth playing. However, I can promise you that Black Knight is going to make a comeback without Sludge Belcher.
Gentle Rodriguez
Member
They can't create any card with 7+ attack worth a DAMN without BGH being nerfed.
It cripples your card design options the same way that Mad Scientist does.