Officerrob
Banned
That puppy is bigger than my full sized dog, that thing is going to be a monster
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Hearthstone |OT5| Corrupted Deeprock Salt
- Thread starter ZealousD
- Start date
That puppy is bigger than my full sized dog, that thing is going to be a monster
Karsticles
Member
During my time playing Hearthstone, I have noticed three balance issues within the game:
1) Some characters have worse hero powers than others in a given matchup; the randomness of Shaman totems leads that class to struggle in general. In another situation, the Hunter hero power leads the class to be limited in strategy: Face Hunter, or...? What else can you do to complement a hero power that only hits other heroes? Some powers have the potential to remain strong in the endgame, like Life Tap, but others are marginalized in the endgame, like Fireblast. While this leads to deep inter-character strategy considerations, it also leads to bad matchups.
2) Once the game has led to cleared hands and a cleared board, each player is hoping for a top draw to win the game, and it's just a matter of RNG to close things out. Moreover, when you are at 10 crystals, and you pull out that 2-mana drop, it's awfully depressing to have 6 mana (2 for hero power) and no use for it. I think this is the most frustrating position to be in, because it doesn't feel like you're playing based on skill and strategy anymore, just the luck of the draw.
3) When you draw your cards at the start of a match, you hope for a perfect curve. If your opponent has a better curve than you, in high-level play this is often a pre-decided match without errors on your opponent's part. This actually speaks to the game's balance, because it means decks can become so tuned that they rock face-to-face throughout the entire match, and one misstep leads to victory. Intense!
I think that all three of these issues can be resolved by revamping the Hero Power system. Instead of giving each skill one 2-mana power, each hero should have a list of 10 powers, 1 for each mana cost. However, to ensure that decks are not played solely via hero powers, these powers should be underpowered relative to comparable card powers. Additionally, it may be necessary to give higher-level powers a cooldown period (like in World of Warcraft) to ensure they are not spammable. I've made a list of potential hero powers for each character below. It's just a sample list, so I hope people do not take the actual balance too seriously. I just want to show that this is an idea that can work.
Druid:
1. Growl - give a minion Taunt until your next turn. 1-turn cooldown.
2. Shapeshift - +1 attack/armor.
3. Ironbark - give a target of your choice 1 armor.
4. Cyclone - suspend a target minion in the air for a turn. It may not be targeted, act, or take damage.
5. Rejuvenation - heal a non-hero minion for 1 damage every turn, up to a maximum of 4.
6. Natures Swiftness - dispel a negative effect on a target creature, such as Silence or Freeze.
7. Hurricane - deal 1 damage to all enemy minions each turn. Your hero may not take other actions while this effect is in place. Taking damage ends the effect.
8. Tranquility - heal all friendly minions for 1 damage each turn. Your hero may not take other actions while this effect is in place. Taking damage ends the effect.
9. Revive - choose from the last 3 friendly minions that have died, and resurrect one at 1 health. 1-turn cooldown.
10. Incapacitating Roar - stun ALL creatures on the field until your next turn. 1-turn cooldown.
Hunter:
1. Mark/Dismiss/Call Pet Mark: a target friendly Beast becomes your Pet, and gains +1 health permanently. This effect does not stack. You may have only one Pet at a time. Dismiss: remove your pet from play. Call: return your pet to play. It gains +1/+1 and Charge.
2. Steady Shot deal 2 damage to the enemy hero.
3. Masters Call remove all negative effects from your Pet.
4. Mend Pet heal your Pet for 2 health every turn, to a maximum of 6 health.
5. Trap Launcher activate one of your Secrets.
6. Kill Shot deal 2 damage to an enemy minion. If it dies, you gain 2 health.
7. Revive Pet resurrect your Pet and give it 1 health.
8. Tame Beast an enemy minion with 1 remaining health is now your Pet.
9. Bestial Wrath gives your pet +3 attack this turn, and it is immune to damage.
10. Feign Death enemies may not target you this turn.
Mage:
1. Presence of Mind reduce the cost of your spells by 1 until the end of your turn.
2. Fireblast deal 1 damage to an enemy character.
3. Conjure Refreshment create a 0-cost card that will heal you or a friendly minion for 1 life.
4. Arcane Brilliance increase your spell damage by 1 until the end of your turn.
5. Frost Armor any enemy that attacks you before your next turn is frozen.
6. Evocation on your next turn, gain 2 temporary mana crystals. This may take you over the maximum of 10.
7. Spellsteal remove a beneficial effect from one minion, and place it on another.
8. Slow a target enemy minion may not attack for two turns.
9. Arcane Mind draw a card. If it is a spell, its cost is 0.
10. Time Warp return the game to your previous turn. Draw three cards. This may only be used once per game.
Paladin:
1. Supplication if you or a minion destroy an enemy minion this turn, your next card costs 1 less to cast.
2. Reinforce summon a 1/1 Silver Hand Recruit.
3. Blessing of Might give a friendly minion +1 attack until the end of your turn.
4. Hand of Protection a friendly minion may not be targeted or damaged this turn.
5. Denounce permanently reduce a targets attack by 2.
6. Divine Shield give yourself Divine Shield.
7. Lay on Hands restore 4 health to a friendly minion.
8. Divine Protection give a friendly minion Divine Shield.
9. Hand of Sacrifice this turn, all damage dealt to friendly minions is redirected to you.
10. Devotion Aura all characters on your side take half damage this turn, rounded down.
Priest:
1. Prayer of Mending a target minion has +1 health until your next turn.
2. Lesser Heal restore 2 health to any character.
3. Guardian Spirit the minion you target will be healed for 1 at the start of every turn.
4. Heal restore 4 health to any character.
5. Shadowfiend creates a 1/1 minion with stealth. When this minion deals damage, restore 1 empty mana crystal.
6. Greater Heal restore 6 health to any character.
7. Divine Aegis this turn, any heals you perform can raise a characters health beyond its maximum.
8. Power Word: Barrier increase the health of all minions by 1.
9. Silence silences a target minion.
10. Saving Grace restore 10 health to yourself. You may go over 30 health as a result of this ability.
Rogue:
1. Pick Pocket target a minion, and gain a random 1-cost item (similar to Spare Parts).
2. Dagger Mastery summon a 1/2 dagger.
3. Throw hurl your weapon at a target. This works as a normal attack, but you do not take damage from the targeted enemy
4. Distract create a 0/1 minion with taunt.
5. Blind stun a target minion for 1 turn. Damage will free this minion from stun.
6. Evasion you are immune to your next damage source.
7. Stealth your hero may not be attacked or targeted for 1 turn. If you attack while in Stealth, you will deal double damage. 1-turn cooldown.
8. Vendetta you and all minions deal 1 extra damage to a target of your choice this turn.
9. Slide and Dice you may attack twice this turn.
10. Smoke Bomb no creatures may be attacked or targeted for the turn. 1-turn cooldown.
Shaman:
1. Stoneclaw Totem Summon a 0/2 totem with taunt.
2. Wrath of Air Totem Summon a 0/2 totem. Your spells deal 1 more damage as long as this totem is in play.
3. Healing Stream Totem Summon a 0/2 totem. At the end of your turn, heal all friendly characters for 1.
4. Flametongue Totem Summon a 0/3 totem. Your minions gain +2 attack as long as this totem is in play.
5. Searing Totem Summon a 0/1 totem. This totem will fire a 1 damage projectile at a target of your choice at the end of your turn.
6. Vitality Totem Summon a 0/3 totem. At the end of your turn, this totem will heal you for 4.
7. Grounding Totem Summon a 0/5 totem. Whenever your opponent casts a spell with a target, Grounding Totem is now its target.
8. Lightning Shield You gain 3 electrical charges. When you attack, or are attacked, one of those charges is expended, dealing 2 damage and stunning the enemy for one turn.
9. Capacitor Totem Summon a 0/4 totem. At the end of your turn, this totem gains 1 attack. When this totem is removed from play, it deals 1 damage to all enemy characters for each attack it had.
10. Mana Tide Totem Summon a 0/3 totem, and draw a card. At the end of your turn, draw a card if this totem is in play.
Warlock:
1. Drain Soul target a creature, and deal no damage. If that creature dies this turn, gain 1 temporary mana crystal on your next turn.
2. Life Tap take 2 damage, and draw a card.
3. Health Funnel take 2 damage, and heal a minion for 2 health.
4. Drain Life deal 1 damage to your opponent and heal 1 life each turn. Your hero may not take other actions while this effect is in place. Taking damage ends the effect.
5. Fear a target minion may not act this turn.
6. Create Healthstone create a 0-cost card that will heal you for 4 when used.
7. Unstable Affliction a target character will take 1 damage per turn until it dies, or 10 damage is dealt.
8. Banish a target minion may not act or be targeted for two turns. It is Immune to all damage.
9. Metamorphosis gain 4 attack and become immune until the end of your turn. 1-turn cooldown.
10. Soulstone when you are reduced below 1 health, return to 1 health immediately. 1-turn cooldown.
Warrior:
1. Taunt gain taunt until your next turn.
2. Armor Up! gain 2 armor.
3. Intervene the next time a creature you choose takes damage, you take it instead.
4. Charge stun a minion for 1 turn.
5. Heroic Throw throw your weapon at an enemy. This works as a normal attack, but you do not take damage from the targeted enemy.
6. Demoralizing Shout give all enemy minions -1 attack until the end of the turn.
7. Stance Change choose between 1 attack generated per turn for the rest of the game, or 1 armor. This effect does not stack. Generated attack power is expended whenever the Warrior attacks.
8. Spell Reflection return the next spell that targets you back at the caster.
9. Battle Shout give all friendly minions +1 attack until the end of the turn.
10. Intimidating Shout enemies may not attack you this turn. 1-turn cooldown.
If Blizzard wanted to go all-out, you could even have specializations and talent trees to offer greater hero customization. Then you wouldnt just be playing a generic druid, but you could try to be a Boomkin, or a Fury Warrior. For example, maybe there could be a Hero Power option for dual-wielding, so Warriors can hold two weapons at once. This would be a lot of fun, but also bring the characters closer to their source material.
1) Some characters have worse hero powers than others in a given matchup; the randomness of Shaman totems leads that class to struggle in general. In another situation, the Hunter hero power leads the class to be limited in strategy: Face Hunter, or...? What else can you do to complement a hero power that only hits other heroes? Some powers have the potential to remain strong in the endgame, like Life Tap, but others are marginalized in the endgame, like Fireblast. While this leads to deep inter-character strategy considerations, it also leads to bad matchups.
2) Once the game has led to cleared hands and a cleared board, each player is hoping for a top draw to win the game, and it's just a matter of RNG to close things out. Moreover, when you are at 10 crystals, and you pull out that 2-mana drop, it's awfully depressing to have 6 mana (2 for hero power) and no use for it. I think this is the most frustrating position to be in, because it doesn't feel like you're playing based on skill and strategy anymore, just the luck of the draw.
3) When you draw your cards at the start of a match, you hope for a perfect curve. If your opponent has a better curve than you, in high-level play this is often a pre-decided match without errors on your opponent's part. This actually speaks to the game's balance, because it means decks can become so tuned that they rock face-to-face throughout the entire match, and one misstep leads to victory. Intense!
I think that all three of these issues can be resolved by revamping the Hero Power system. Instead of giving each skill one 2-mana power, each hero should have a list of 10 powers, 1 for each mana cost. However, to ensure that decks are not played solely via hero powers, these powers should be underpowered relative to comparable card powers. Additionally, it may be necessary to give higher-level powers a cooldown period (like in World of Warcraft) to ensure they are not spammable. I've made a list of potential hero powers for each character below. It's just a sample list, so I hope people do not take the actual balance too seriously. I just want to show that this is an idea that can work.
Druid:
1. Growl - give a minion Taunt until your next turn. 1-turn cooldown.
2. Shapeshift - +1 attack/armor.
3. Ironbark - give a target of your choice 1 armor.
4. Cyclone - suspend a target minion in the air for a turn. It may not be targeted, act, or take damage.
5. Rejuvenation - heal a non-hero minion for 1 damage every turn, up to a maximum of 4.
6. Natures Swiftness - dispel a negative effect on a target creature, such as Silence or Freeze.
7. Hurricane - deal 1 damage to all enemy minions each turn. Your hero may not take other actions while this effect is in place. Taking damage ends the effect.
8. Tranquility - heal all friendly minions for 1 damage each turn. Your hero may not take other actions while this effect is in place. Taking damage ends the effect.
9. Revive - choose from the last 3 friendly minions that have died, and resurrect one at 1 health. 1-turn cooldown.
10. Incapacitating Roar - stun ALL creatures on the field until your next turn. 1-turn cooldown.
Hunter:
1. Mark/Dismiss/Call Pet Mark: a target friendly Beast becomes your Pet, and gains +1 health permanently. This effect does not stack. You may have only one Pet at a time. Dismiss: remove your pet from play. Call: return your pet to play. It gains +1/+1 and Charge.
2. Steady Shot deal 2 damage to the enemy hero.
3. Masters Call remove all negative effects from your Pet.
4. Mend Pet heal your Pet for 2 health every turn, to a maximum of 6 health.
5. Trap Launcher activate one of your Secrets.
6. Kill Shot deal 2 damage to an enemy minion. If it dies, you gain 2 health.
7. Revive Pet resurrect your Pet and give it 1 health.
8. Tame Beast an enemy minion with 1 remaining health is now your Pet.
9. Bestial Wrath gives your pet +3 attack this turn, and it is immune to damage.
10. Feign Death enemies may not target you this turn.
Mage:
1. Presence of Mind reduce the cost of your spells by 1 until the end of your turn.
2. Fireblast deal 1 damage to an enemy character.
3. Conjure Refreshment create a 0-cost card that will heal you or a friendly minion for 1 life.
4. Arcane Brilliance increase your spell damage by 1 until the end of your turn.
5. Frost Armor any enemy that attacks you before your next turn is frozen.
6. Evocation on your next turn, gain 2 temporary mana crystals. This may take you over the maximum of 10.
7. Spellsteal remove a beneficial effect from one minion, and place it on another.
8. Slow a target enemy minion may not attack for two turns.
9. Arcane Mind draw a card. If it is a spell, its cost is 0.
10. Time Warp return the game to your previous turn. Draw three cards. This may only be used once per game.
Paladin:
1. Supplication if you or a minion destroy an enemy minion this turn, your next card costs 1 less to cast.
2. Reinforce summon a 1/1 Silver Hand Recruit.
3. Blessing of Might give a friendly minion +1 attack until the end of your turn.
4. Hand of Protection a friendly minion may not be targeted or damaged this turn.
5. Denounce permanently reduce a targets attack by 2.
6. Divine Shield give yourself Divine Shield.
7. Lay on Hands restore 4 health to a friendly minion.
8. Divine Protection give a friendly minion Divine Shield.
9. Hand of Sacrifice this turn, all damage dealt to friendly minions is redirected to you.
10. Devotion Aura all characters on your side take half damage this turn, rounded down.
Priest:
1. Prayer of Mending a target minion has +1 health until your next turn.
2. Lesser Heal restore 2 health to any character.
3. Guardian Spirit the minion you target will be healed for 1 at the start of every turn.
4. Heal restore 4 health to any character.
5. Shadowfiend creates a 1/1 minion with stealth. When this minion deals damage, restore 1 empty mana crystal.
6. Greater Heal restore 6 health to any character.
7. Divine Aegis this turn, any heals you perform can raise a characters health beyond its maximum.
8. Power Word: Barrier increase the health of all minions by 1.
9. Silence silences a target minion.
10. Saving Grace restore 10 health to yourself. You may go over 30 health as a result of this ability.
Rogue:
1. Pick Pocket target a minion, and gain a random 1-cost item (similar to Spare Parts).
2. Dagger Mastery summon a 1/2 dagger.
3. Throw hurl your weapon at a target. This works as a normal attack, but you do not take damage from the targeted enemy
4. Distract create a 0/1 minion with taunt.
5. Blind stun a target minion for 1 turn. Damage will free this minion from stun.
6. Evasion you are immune to your next damage source.
7. Stealth your hero may not be attacked or targeted for 1 turn. If you attack while in Stealth, you will deal double damage. 1-turn cooldown.
8. Vendetta you and all minions deal 1 extra damage to a target of your choice this turn.
9. Slide and Dice you may attack twice this turn.
10. Smoke Bomb no creatures may be attacked or targeted for the turn. 1-turn cooldown.
Shaman:
1. Stoneclaw Totem Summon a 0/2 totem with taunt.
2. Wrath of Air Totem Summon a 0/2 totem. Your spells deal 1 more damage as long as this totem is in play.
3. Healing Stream Totem Summon a 0/2 totem. At the end of your turn, heal all friendly characters for 1.
4. Flametongue Totem Summon a 0/3 totem. Your minions gain +2 attack as long as this totem is in play.
5. Searing Totem Summon a 0/1 totem. This totem will fire a 1 damage projectile at a target of your choice at the end of your turn.
6. Vitality Totem Summon a 0/3 totem. At the end of your turn, this totem will heal you for 4.
7. Grounding Totem Summon a 0/5 totem. Whenever your opponent casts a spell with a target, Grounding Totem is now its target.
8. Lightning Shield You gain 3 electrical charges. When you attack, or are attacked, one of those charges is expended, dealing 2 damage and stunning the enemy for one turn.
9. Capacitor Totem Summon a 0/4 totem. At the end of your turn, this totem gains 1 attack. When this totem is removed from play, it deals 1 damage to all enemy characters for each attack it had.
10. Mana Tide Totem Summon a 0/3 totem, and draw a card. At the end of your turn, draw a card if this totem is in play.
Warlock:
1. Drain Soul target a creature, and deal no damage. If that creature dies this turn, gain 1 temporary mana crystal on your next turn.
2. Life Tap take 2 damage, and draw a card.
3. Health Funnel take 2 damage, and heal a minion for 2 health.
4. Drain Life deal 1 damage to your opponent and heal 1 life each turn. Your hero may not take other actions while this effect is in place. Taking damage ends the effect.
5. Fear a target minion may not act this turn.
6. Create Healthstone create a 0-cost card that will heal you for 4 when used.
7. Unstable Affliction a target character will take 1 damage per turn until it dies, or 10 damage is dealt.
8. Banish a target minion may not act or be targeted for two turns. It is Immune to all damage.
9. Metamorphosis gain 4 attack and become immune until the end of your turn. 1-turn cooldown.
10. Soulstone when you are reduced below 1 health, return to 1 health immediately. 1-turn cooldown.
Warrior:
1. Taunt gain taunt until your next turn.
2. Armor Up! gain 2 armor.
3. Intervene the next time a creature you choose takes damage, you take it instead.
4. Charge stun a minion for 1 turn.
5. Heroic Throw throw your weapon at an enemy. This works as a normal attack, but you do not take damage from the targeted enemy.
6. Demoralizing Shout give all enemy minions -1 attack until the end of the turn.
7. Stance Change choose between 1 attack generated per turn for the rest of the game, or 1 armor. This effect does not stack. Generated attack power is expended whenever the Warrior attacks.
8. Spell Reflection return the next spell that targets you back at the caster.
9. Battle Shout give all friendly minions +1 attack until the end of the turn.
10. Intimidating Shout enemies may not attack you this turn. 1-turn cooldown.
If Blizzard wanted to go all-out, you could even have specializations and talent trees to offer greater hero customization. Then you wouldnt just be playing a generic druid, but you could try to be a Boomkin, or a Fury Warrior. For example, maybe there could be a Hero Power option for dual-wielding, so Warriors can hold two weapons at once. This would be a lot of fun, but also bring the characters closer to their source material.
I am surprised by the call for nerfs for either yea. Although I suppose maaaybe people are thinking ahead about what cards will be op in the new meta???? But yea I haven't heard complaints about BGH since Patron meta. Also Owl is a great mechanic. Sure it sucks when your tirion gets owled, but you have to admire that your opponent played you.
If we want to consider e-sports like a sport than this is literally not a problem (like rng)
Listening to all these players who supposedly were at the summit seems like Druid is going to get hit with the nerf stick really hard.
Though the same logic should be applied to Rogues as well. Every single Rogue deck comprises of the following cards:
2x Backstab, 2x Eviserate, 2x Prep, 2x Poison weapon, 2x Blade Flurry, 2x SI7, 2x Fan of Knives, Sprint etc.
Like half of the cards are already used up by these classic cards. That's a problem for Blizzard going into the future.
Though the same logic should be applied to Rogues as well. Every single Rogue deck comprises of the following cards:
2x Backstab, 2x Eviserate, 2x Prep, 2x Poison weapon, 2x Blade Flurry, 2x SI7, 2x Fan of Knives, Sprint etc.
Like half of the cards are already used up by these classic cards. That's a problem for Blizzard going into the future.
Returning?
Putting more than 5-6 attack on the board is a big threat, and it shouldn't be too easy to make it stick. Otherwise Ironbark Protector would be auto-win all the time like it was in early beta, because by then your bears have both been polymorphed.
Pick Priest and then the match making will pair you against Druid guaranteed.
BananasWithGuns
Member
This is why it's almost a sure thing that the combo is getting nerfed when the new expansion releases.
Secret Paladin is a good deck on ladder because it plays itself and is pretty easy to get a >50% win percentage with. That's why Paladin pollutes ladder, just like Hunter used to.
Midrange Druid may be more viable against great players with real decks. It's definitely less "all-in". Which is why I think it merits discussion as the best deck.
Blizzard basically stated outright that Druid is going to get the stick with their basic/classic cards when the new expansion rolls around.
Been telling people every month to play Secret Paladin but people are too stubborn. You guys just ruin the statistics and impact balance changes.
These Blizzard stats are meaningless to me without them actually releasing them. They used the same exact excuse for Grim Patron deck (where I would actually believe their statistics because Grim Patron wasn't that popular and most people lost with it) but still nerfed it hardcore.
just want to clarify ive been playing casual all night,
just a shitload of midrange and anyfin pallies
EDIT: just took an anyfin pally down from 27 to zero with a buncha medium minions on the board, a doomguard, and 2x power overwhelmings
warlocks have so many tricks up their sleeves, one of my favorite cards of theirs is shadowflame
just a shitload of midrange and anyfin pallies
EDIT: just took an anyfin pally down from 27 to zero with a buncha medium minions on the board, a doomguard, and 2x power overwhelmings
warlocks have so many tricks up their sleeves, one of my favorite cards of theirs is shadowflame
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
So far, who do we think is going to suffer the most from these changes on ladder? For me, I think -
1. Paladin. Paladin's strength came from playing strong, valuable minions on curve in the early game. Now they have no Avenge, Zombie Chow, Minibot, Muster, Shredder, Loatheb, Dr. Boom, Coghammer or Quartermaster. Ouch.
2. Priest. Priest is losing Dark Cultist, Velen's Chosen, Lightbomb and Deathlord, so that sucks for them. With Naxx being removed, Museum Curator is also taking a hit.
3. Warlock. Losing darkbomb, Voidcaller, Imp-plosion and Mal'ganis will suck, but its not like they lost Life Tap. He'll do fine.
4. Mage. Yes, Mage is losing strong cards like Flamecannon and Unstable Portal and Mech Mage is dead in the dirt right now, but Freeze Mage is looking to have a good time in these changes.
5. Rogue. Losing Oil sucks, but I think they can make up for it.
6. Warrior. Losing Death's Bite and Shieldmaiden REALLY sucks, but I think that will be offset by not having to deal with annoying shit that hampered it.
7. Hunter. Losing Glaivezooka, Haunted Creeper and Webspinner will suck, but hardly impact Hunter's current state at all imo.
8. Shaman. I don't think they are losing anything substantial here, aside from Crackle.
9. Druid. Ok, Druid will probably take a hit somewhere, but as of right now this changes like, nothing for them.
1. Paladin. Paladin's strength came from playing strong, valuable minions on curve in the early game. Now they have no Avenge, Zombie Chow, Minibot, Muster, Shredder, Loatheb, Dr. Boom, Coghammer or Quartermaster. Ouch.
2. Priest. Priest is losing Dark Cultist, Velen's Chosen, Lightbomb and Deathlord, so that sucks for them. With Naxx being removed, Museum Curator is also taking a hit.
3. Warlock. Losing darkbomb, Voidcaller, Imp-plosion and Mal'ganis will suck, but its not like they lost Life Tap. He'll do fine.
4. Mage. Yes, Mage is losing strong cards like Flamecannon and Unstable Portal and Mech Mage is dead in the dirt right now, but Freeze Mage is looking to have a good time in these changes.
5. Rogue. Losing Oil sucks, but I think they can make up for it.
6. Warrior. Losing Death's Bite and Shieldmaiden REALLY sucks, but I think that will be offset by not having to deal with annoying shit that hampered it.
7. Hunter. Losing Glaivezooka, Haunted Creeper and Webspinner will suck, but hardly impact Hunter's current state at all imo.
8. Shaman. I don't think they are losing anything substantial here, aside from Crackle.
9. Druid. Ok, Druid will probably take a hit somewhere, but as of right now this changes like, nothing for them.
Pretty sure that's bogus too because even at tournaments Grim Patron while dominant wasn't the best decks at these tournaments. Stuff like Midrange Hunter was doing a lot more work at the time. And those stats were public record so it's not like Blizzard could hide that. And I remember this because we used to have debates over Grim Patron constantly and the win rate statistics were always brought up.
I am not going to argue against Blizzard's kinda sort of stats that they don't make public but everyone who plays Ladder or watches high level tournaments knows that Secret Paladin is a very dominant and popular deck. We have stats on bots for this deck which is in the 55% win rate range. That win percentage can get you to Legend and Paladin bots have reached Legend rank.
And the MC debate is pretty much over at this point. Like 10 cards in that deck are either banned or will probably be nerfed in the future. Can't play 2x Avenge, 2x Minibot, 2x Muster, 2x Shredder, 1x Loatheb, 2x Belcher, 1, Dr Boom, 2x Haunted Creepers, 2x Nerubian Eggs, 1x Coghammer anymore. Knife Juggler from the sounds of thing may get the nerf stick too so what's even left with the deck?
Based on purely just removal of Naxx/GvG and not any other changes to classic cards:
Least Impacted tier:
Druid - Least changed, best class in the game at the moment. No question about it.
Shaman - Shaman loses Mech Mage but that was already eclipsed by Aggro Shaman.
Rogue - Only lost Oil but it's a decent loss for them. Still have a lot of basic cards to rely on like Druid but if Aggro Shaman is dominant then Rogue will have trouble getting much started.
Fairly Impacted Tier:
Hunter - They lost Mad Scientist, Web Spinner, Haunted Creeper and Glaivezooka. The Mad Scientist alone is a big nerf to them but Hunter always manages to find a way to rush the opponent down. I think Beast Hunter might actually be a thing because Hunters can use Tomb Spider instead of Shredder.
Warrior - Lost Shield Maiden, Unstable Ghoul, Belcher and Death's Bite, substantial losses to both Control and Grim Patron archetype. On the flip side because there's less stuff annoying stuff, even a nerfed Warrior might end up being more effective. .
Mage - Lost an entire deck archetype in Mech Mage, lost Unbalanced Eportal, Mad Scientist, Flamecannon, Duplicate, Echo of Medivh ( so kills Echo Giants deck). That said Tempo Mage with Flamewaker and Freeze Mage should still be viable decks.
Most Impacted Tier:
Warlock - Lost Implosion, Nerubian Egg, Haunted Creeper, Loatheb, Stalaag/Fuegen, Belcher, Healbot, Dark Bomb, Void Caller, Malganis. Pretty screwed all around to all the major archetypes like Zoo and Handlock. Dreadsteed Warlock is destroyed due to removal of Kelthuzad and Rivendale. Renolock is least affected as you can probably scrounge by replacing Dark Bomb with Shadow Bolt and Bolf with Healbot so Warlock would still be viable in general. Combolock should still be usable as well.
Priest - Lost Lightbomb (which would've been amazing in this new format), Velen's, Light of Naaru, Voljin, Dark Cultist, Shrinkmeister, Deathlord, Belcher. This pretty much makes it so that Priests have to go back to using Blademasters for their 3 drops and probably put in Holy Champions as well with Flash Heals instead of Light of Naaru for their Control Priest archetype. Luckily they got enough cards from LoE to make the Control variant work. Dragon Priest is still large unaffected so that will still be viable. They got hit hard but still should be playable.
Paladin - Lost the entire curve from 1 to 7. Probably the most nerfed however because of Anyfin and Midrange variant, they will still manage to be viable. Also Mysterious Challenger is still strong enough to be worthy of making a deck around, you will probably just stick to using 3 secrets though and either play a hyper aggressive variant with charge minions (like Horserider) or a more Midrange variant.
I don't expect most of these to hold true after the card changes are posted and the new cards are shown.
Officerrob
Banned
Everyone know's Druid cards are being nerfed, and Blizzard tends to nerf cards into unplayable status these days
Im the same opinion as Kibler. How many years we will stand of the same cards over and over. How many years of alexstrasza into grom taskmaster or whatever combo are we going to tolerate?. How many years of freeze mage?.
And nerfing that cards into oblivion would be a bad idea because you are touching peoples investment and complete obliterate decks from the game so they are not legal even in wild.
Classic being always legal is a bad idea in the long term. They should do core sets the same way magic does...maybe one year there is ice block in the core sets...maybe next year not...maybe next we will have sneed ol shredder back or whatever card. I think thats better that being constantly changing cards of classic to keep things under control.
Also there are classes like druid and rogue that are 90% classic and basic cards and thats hard to change unless you nerf ito oblivion totally fine cards like si7 agent, backstab or ancient of lore, for example.
And nerfing that cards into oblivion would be a bad idea because you are touching peoples investment and complete obliterate decks from the game so they are not legal even in wild.
Classic being always legal is a bad idea in the long term. They should do core sets the same way magic does...maybe one year there is ice block in the core sets...maybe next year not...maybe next we will have sneed ol shredder back or whatever card. I think thats better that being constantly changing cards of classic to keep things under control.
Also there are classes like druid and rogue that are 90% classic and basic cards and thats hard to change unless you nerf ito oblivion totally fine cards like si7 agent, backstab or ancient of lore, for example.
Even the best players in the world would misplay regularly with Patron decks. That was one of the best parts about watching the deck in tournaments.
It would be really weird next to Spellbreaker. There'd be no need for the Owl.
Hoping they stay away from the usual increase cost/lower stats adjustments we've seen so far.
"give your characters +2 attack this turn. Cost (1) more for each spell played this turn"
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
So they are including a new xpac along with this right? I assume some alternatives will be introduced.
I expect a new (usable) Warrior weapon, more attempts at Priest and Rogue 2 drops and some new Joust cards to try and force the mechanic again
I expect a new (usable) Warrior weapon, more attempts at Priest and Rogue 2 drops and some new Joust cards to try and force the mechanic again
Yup, it kinda looks like every year is going to start out with a "core" set. Year of the Kraken probably means something. So it will be interesting to see what elements they will add for this year moving forward.
On the silence debate. I think both Ironbeak Owl and Spellbreaker will get changed to the Light's Champion properties. So with a very specific battlecry but no tempo loss when played. Ironbeak: 3/2 for 2 Battlecry: Silence a beast. Spellbreaker 5/4 for 4 Battlecry: Silence a legendary minion for example.
The thing is Rogue falls apart the second you take away anything from their core kit. For Druid it depends, they need some form of ramp but if they slightly adjust only one of the thee ramp cards they'll still be fine, and combo in its current form as we all know needs to go. Druid will manage.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
Year of the Kraken? Where was that said
Officerrob
Banned
Brode also mentioned it being "The Year of the Kraken" in his video
vegan dog, seriously?
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
I don't think the Year of the Kraken means anything, really. There's North Sea Kraken, but that was an enemy in Wrath of the Lich King AKA Northerend, and likely only there because TGT was Northerend, so I doubt theres any connection there. Other then that, Kraken suggests underwater, so Naga, and Vash'jir, a massive underwater zone in WoW. Now a lot of people hate Vash'jir but a lot of people hated Trial of the Crusader which TGT was based on so who knows.
Voidcaller
Death's Bite
Webspinner
Lightbomb
Unstable Portal
Muster for Battle
Tinker's Oil
Belcher
Druid and Shaman aren't really losing anything worth saving.
Voidcaller
Death's Bite
Webspinner
Lightbomb
Unstable Portal
Muster for Battle
Tinker's Oil
Belcher
Druid and Shaman aren't really losing anything worth saving.
Officerrob
Banned
Druid: Grove Tender? I guess? All their cards suck
Hunter: Webspinner
Mage: Flamecannon
Paladin: Uhhhh, Coghammer? No Minibot or Muster
Priest: This is tough, but I think i go with Velen's Chosen. Dark Cultist and Lightbomb are also great choices
Rogue: Tinker's. It's the only card worth a shit and it's not crazy OP
Shaman: Probably Whirling Zap-O-Matic, their cards are garbage. Also, no Crackle, that garbage can go away
Warlock: Voidcaller
Warrior: Death's Bite
Neutral: Antique Healbot
Officerrob
Banned
Even if somebody tried to summarize it they would likely leave out valuable info, best bet is to read the FAQ:
http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/blog/19995505/a-new-way-to-play-2-2-2016#faq
There will many tazdingos and funnel cakes.
- In spring New set + the new format (Standard) arrives.
- Standard will be a rotating format with sets rotating in and out on a yearly basis
- The first Standard year will be called: Year of the Kraken
- It includes the following sets: Basic/Classic/BRM/TGT/LOE/New set
- Next year BRM/TGT/LOE will rotate out
- With the standard format they will be rebalancing some Basic/Classic cards that limit design space (think FoN/SR)
- The other format will be called "Wild", which includes all the sets. (has it's own ranked ladder and you can reach legend)
- Standard will be the format supported by Blizzard for tournaments.
- Arena (and the other play formats) will use the Wild format.
- Standard only applies to Ranked and Casual
- Your Standard rank will be the one displayed on your profile for battle.net friends to see
- You can now (dis)enchant cards from Adventures
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
I'm not sure if this matters at all to any sort of overarching plan, but how I see it is that three areas of WoW have gotten way more love then others. Vanilla, Wrath, and Cataclysm. Now this is Heroes of WarCraft so its not just WoW, but WoW is so massive now that it pretty much has everything in it from the RTS games (thanks WoD.) Lets run down the list -
Basic/Classic - Mostly general WarCraft stuff from all over.
Naxxramas - Vanilla/Wrath. Originally a Vanilla raid, retooled for Wrath.
Goblins vs Gnomes - Once again, all over. Lots of made up stuff.
Blackrock Mountain - 4 parts Vanilla 1 part and Cataclysm.
The Grand Tournament - Wrath all the way.
League of Explorers - Vanilla and Cataclysm...and shit they made up.
Other then that, Burning Crusade, Mists of Pandaria and Warlords of Draenor have...almost nothing. For real. Out of ALL of the cards, the ones I can attribute to these three off the top of my head are...
Iron Juggernaut (MoP)
Lorewalker Cho (MoP)
Garrison Commander? (WoD)
Mogu'shan Warden (MoP)
Shado-pan Rider (MoP)
Youthful and Ancient Brewmasters (MoP)
Illidan Stormrage (BC, Legion I guess)
Gruul (BC, WoD)
Prophet Velen (BC, WoD)
Silvermoon Guardian, if I'm being generous (BC)
Arcane Golem (BC)
Mogor the Ogre (BC, WoD)
Grom Hellscream (WoD but I am really pushing it)
So essentially jack shit. Now there may be weapons or spells or something that were only made in certain xpacs but I can't be assed to remember when spells were added in what xpac. This leads me to believe - for no reason whatsoever outside of baseless, rampant conjecture - that EVENTUALLY at some point, these areas will get focus. Because they have like, none. Isle of Thunder/Throne of Thunder and Karazhan adventures are like, easy. Probably not Warlords of Draenor for a while though since its still new. Strangely enough, heroes don't really follow this at all. Probably because finding massively lore important characters is way harder.
That's my thesis statement.
Tldr I care too much about WarCraft lore
Basic/Classic - Mostly general WarCraft stuff from all over.
Naxxramas - Vanilla/Wrath. Originally a Vanilla raid, retooled for Wrath.
Goblins vs Gnomes - Once again, all over. Lots of made up stuff.
Blackrock Mountain - 4 parts Vanilla 1 part and Cataclysm.
The Grand Tournament - Wrath all the way.
League of Explorers - Vanilla and Cataclysm...and shit they made up.
Other then that, Burning Crusade, Mists of Pandaria and Warlords of Draenor have...almost nothing. For real. Out of ALL of the cards, the ones I can attribute to these three off the top of my head are...
Iron Juggernaut (MoP)
Lorewalker Cho (MoP)
Garrison Commander? (WoD)
Mogu'shan Warden (MoP)
Shado-pan Rider (MoP)
Youthful and Ancient Brewmasters (MoP)
Illidan Stormrage (BC, Legion I guess)
Gruul (BC, WoD)
Prophet Velen (BC, WoD)
Silvermoon Guardian, if I'm being generous (BC)
Arcane Golem (BC)
Mogor the Ogre (BC, WoD)
Grom Hellscream (WoD but I am really pushing it)
So essentially jack shit. Now there may be weapons or spells or something that were only made in certain xpacs but I can't be assed to remember when spells were added in what xpac. This leads me to believe - for no reason whatsoever outside of baseless, rampant conjecture - that EVENTUALLY at some point, these areas will get focus. Because they have like, none. Isle of Thunder/Throne of Thunder and Karazhan adventures are like, easy. Probably not Warlords of Draenor for a while though since its still new. Strangely enough, heroes don't really follow this at all. Probably because finding massively lore important characters is way harder.
That's my thesis statement.
Tldr I care too much about WarCraft lore
No way in hell. Adventure cards becoming dustable is already massive considering Blizz hasn't nerfed non-basic cards in ages.
Trigger_happy
Member
Inb4 5 mana savage roar, force of nature summons 3 2/2 treants without charge, innervate refills 2 mana crystal, 5 mana keeper of the grove, 8 mana ancient of lore
I can see Wild going to way of modern in MTG, where the archetypes will mostly stay the same and your deck evolves with only a couple a cards per year. So in the end Wild will become the 'cheaper' format to keep playing because you won't need to rebuild your preferred decks every time a new set comes out.
I also fully expect that Blizzard will add official wild tournaments to the calender next year. There is just money there for the taking to organize two WC's every year. A standard WC at the end of winter (assuming rotation will now always take place in spring) and a wild WC
in the second half of that year. I get that they want to promote standard for the first year but I also know with the new focus on E-sports at Activision/Blizzard they will probably end up organizing both a Wild and Standard WC.
So in the end I wouldn't dust my old (wild) cards just yet, unless you are a 100% sure you won't ever touch wild.