FormallyFamicom
Member
I beat a Renolock with Face Hunter a few nights ago. Healed for 22 with it and I managed to still win. Dreams can come true.
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Hearthstone |OT5| Corrupted Deeprock Salt
- Thread starter ZealousD
- Start date
Karsticles
Member
I had one guy use Reno. I got him back down to 3 life. Then he dropped Mal'Ganis. I took Mal'Ganis down. Then he dropped Jaxxaris, or whatever his name is. I couldn't burn through that health, too. One of my saltiest losses.
I am not saying do 15 from hand like a Druid, I mean if you have creatures on board you can do a lot of damage all at once.
Double PO alone adds 8 damage to what you have on board. If you double PO plus a single Doom Guard with one more creature on board then that's GG for the Warlock who should already be at low health because that's how the deck operates anyway.
I would probably feel salty at that too but on the salt scale that's still pretty low.
I don't think any thing compares to facing off against a Turn 4 Dr Boom against a Tempo Mage who got it from Unbalanced Esportal or Druid innervating it out early. Also Shaman killing me by turn 5-6 always grinds my gears. And god curve Paladin plus Druid double combo.
It used to be a meme that dying by turn 7 was a big deal. They even made a song about it aka the SMOrc song. Nowadays you lose by turn 6, they need to update the song with Shaman.
Karsticles
Member
I often have to pop PO to kill big creatures with an imp, or to activate Nerubian Egg.
Once I get better cards, it likely won't be as big of a problem. Sitting at 615g, and a part of me wonders if I should buy Naxx expansions anyway. If we're talking about APRIL for the next set and changeover, then that's still 2 full months to benefit from those cards.
It might come earlier than that who knows.
They announced LoE and it was out in 4 days or something.
It's not worth to get Naxx at all. However, I would get LoE especially first wing because Dark Peddler is great in Zoolock. It can give you an additional PO or Soul Fire to burst down people with.
Also Zoolock even in its final form still loses to Reno/Handlock in the match ups. It has less to do with Reno and more to do with powerful taunts that these decks can put up along with powerful board clears. It doesn't matter that you have 4 1/1s on the board because without a silence it's really hard to get through a 4/10 taunt. The Reno match up is actually quite a bit better than the Handlock match up for Zoolock mostly because Reno is forced to run Demonwrath as its 3rd AOE and that is very ineffective against a Demon Zoolock.
They announced LoE and it was out in 4 days or something.
It's not worth to get Naxx at all. However, I would get LoE especially first wing because Dark Peddler is great in Zoolock. It can give you an additional PO or Soul Fire to burst down people with.
Also Zoolock even in its final form still loses to Reno/Handlock in the match ups. It has less to do with Reno and more to do with powerful taunts that these decks can put up along with powerful board clears. It doesn't matter that you have 4 1/1s on the board because without a silence it's really hard to get through a 4/10 taunt. The Reno match up is actually quite a bit better than the Handlock match up for Zoolock mostly because Reno is forced to run Demonwrath as its 3rd AOE and that is very ineffective against a Demon Zoolock.
I gain a little more respect for reynoodle after reading this. Fuck Scamaz.
Karsticles
Member
Blackrock Mountain is second in importance to me because it has Imp Boss, and my current deck has only two 3-cost cards. It fills a nice gap.
Also, I am keenly aware that I have almost no Classic cards since I've disenchanted them all. However, I'm wary of buying Classic packs because some Naxx/GvG cards might become Classic once the changes take place.
That's a bold guess to hinge on.
I brought up Dark Peddler because it's in the first wing. Imp Gang Boss on the other hand is on the 2nd wing of BRM.
First wing also has Jeweled Scarab which would have a very high change to get you Imp Gang Boss out of the Discovery. Discover mechanic is pretty strong for newer decks because it inflates the power level of your deck by giving you access to Legendaries and stuff.
Firebat talked about it on stream the other day. Very diplomatic about it although it was clear that his issues were with Amaz in particular.
Officerrob
Banned
Amaz needs to hire someone to do PR immediately, that video was absolutely ridiculous
Karsticles
Member
The thing is, I don't want to play Zoolock forever. The deck I want to transition to focuses primarily on demons. However, now that Voidcaller and Mal'ganis are leaving, it's hard to know if that's even worthwhile.
What an awkward position to be in. :-/
Karsticles
Member
Want to buy me a lot of cards so I can play something more interesting?
Or do you think it's a great idea to mock new players and their limited options?
Zoolock is basically Demonlock. Both use Void Callers, Imps and stuff.
The deck used to be Zoolock but it evolved into Demonlock once Warlock got more high quality demons like Void Callers, Imp Gang Boss, Malganis etc. Though Void Caller was the glue that held the deck together, without it there's not much point in running the demon synergy and the deck would probably be better off being closer to classic Zoolock.
turn 1, do nothing. turn 2, do nothing. turn 3, do nothing. as a mage you're likely to have three minions on board and a hand full of spells by turn 4. those types of priest decks are gimmicks.
you'll love it when classic handlock makes it's return in standard.
Emerson
May contain jokes =>
I don't know what you expect honestly. Frankly it's an achievement that new players can play the game period without putting decent money into it. Try playing Magic on a minimal budget and see how you do.
I get that this is a fundamental consideration of Hearthstone's design and necessary for mobile gaming success, but the problem is never going to go away. It's inherent to collectible card gaming. And no, you won't have a lot of archetype options at first.
Aka This is the game we play.
Compared to other card games it is way, way , way easier to do well in HS on a budget and with crappier cards.
Try to play YGO with basic cards vs someone who has a top deck. It's unwinnable.
The difference is staggering. You have vanilla bodies that die to every spell/tap where as the other guy will have monsters that lock out trap activation, are immune to magic spells and have crazy abilities that take up the entire text box.
Or you have alternate win conditions where you get out 3 creatures plus this and you win the game for meeting the condition:
Compared to other card games it is way, way , way easier to do well in HS on a budget and with crappier cards.
Try to play YGO with basic cards vs someone who has a top deck. It's unwinnable.
The difference is staggering. You have vanilla bodies that die to every spell/tap where as the other guy will have monsters that lock out trap activation, are immune to magic spells and have crazy abilities that take up the entire text box.
Or you have alternate win conditions where you get out 3 creatures plus this and you win the game for meeting the condition:
Hey man. It's not like a real Zoo list is cheap. There are lots of adventure cards in those decks. You could have easily landed on a ghetto Midrange Druid or something but choose what you choose.
Not to be a dick... but after a year plus of aggression ruin ladder, watching those awful decks get fucked by Reno is the best thing ever.
We're never going to get a taunted yeti for 4 mana, at least I hope not. A 4/5 taunter would still be good at 5 mana, better than Fen Creeper or Bootyguard.
Officerrob
Banned
I love Reno. I hope Blizzard adopts a policy of keeping a handful of cards from the cards scheduled to move to wild (shift to classic), and I'd love for Reno to be one.
Karsticles
Member
There's a reason I don't play MtG anymore. Using MtG to justify Hearthstone is a weak argument. That said, when I played MtG seriously, you could be tournament competent with nothing but commons and uncommons if you ran a beatdown deck (this was Urza's).
I'm NOT complaining about not having access to a lot of options. I just don't appreciate people in this thread taking joy in my frustration - what the fuck kind of community is that to be a part of? Who wants to talk to people who literally say "I'm so glad you're losing!" to you when you're just starting out?
Reno is a dumb gimmick card that makes the game look like a Pay to Win title.
My aggro deck doesn't have anything beyond Naxx wing 1, and I do my best with what I have.
I play for flavor. I like Warlocks in WoW, so I made a Warlock deck. I don't like Druids, so I didn't make a Druid deck.
Also, when you say something like "Not to be a dick" or "I'm not trying to be a dick", it's a pretty good indicator that you are being one.
Officerrob
Banned
If your deck doesn't have anything past week 1 of Naxx you are at a handicap against the vast majority of decks, that's just the way it is.
This is bound to happen when you come in the thread with "**** Reno!"
Like how did you expect the people of the thread to react to it? "Yeah man I am totally with you... Reno is broken!" That's not what most people feel on the card. This is one of the cards that admittedly punishes weaker decks but in the grand scheme of things it's not game breaking so people who have been playing the game for years don't even bat an eye at it.
You have to realize that even when people have EVERY SINGLE CARD in the collection they still play face decks that are cheap to make and easy to pilot. Reno really only punishes a very limited variant of decks in the game, it's not as effective against Midrange, Combo, Fatigue and Control decks. However, unlike a tech card that you put in to counter a meta... you can't tech in Reno you have to adjust your entire deck based around it.
Officerrob
Banned
Outside of the week of Reno's release, I haven't heard of anybody thinking Reno is a broken/OP card
There's an argument to be made that Reno can become really strong with a big enough card pool.
However, that will never happen so Reno will never get to that power level.
Karsticles
Member
I have beaten every other archetype numerous times through smart play. Just not Reno.
I meant it tongue-in-cheek, like how you QQ about Dr. Balanced (who, again, frustrates me WAY less than Reno).
Officerrob
Banned
Oh I agree, I think Reno would have likely become a problem after the next major expansion (as long as it wasn't TGT levels of garbage), but no worry about that now
accel
Member
OK, I just finished processing the news on formats (been busy the last few days).
Here's what I think:
* Standard is obviously going to be where it's at, because that's what tournaments are going to be in, and so that's what streamers are going to use, etc. Wild is likely going to be something like arenas - a side attraction, and a little on the weird side.
* I have no idea whether the meta in Standard is going to be "healthier" or not, I get that they have big intentions, but with a cut this blunt - "let's cut everything in extensions X and Y" - everything will depend on what the other balancing measures are like. The cut is too dumb by itself, it will very likely make things worse, not better (as in, promote something even dumber than what's currently referred to as "cancer" decks). It's their other changes after the cut that will have to make things sufficiently better, and I don't know if they'll be up to it, we'll have to see.
* For new players, things mostly don't change, the card disadvantage largely stays where it is currently at. Sure, with Standard, they are taking away cards from Naxx / GG, but they are adding one more expansion in the spring and might add even more before "the year of the Kraken" ends. If they only have the spring expansion, the card disadvantage will be just a bit less than it is now. All improvements for new players are in the future where the card disadvantage would have become completely insurmountable without the changes, things merely freeze at the current status - which is pretty rough - they stop getting worse, but they don't improve.
I don't know, thanks for the changes, I guess they are better than nothing, but I am not very thrilled. They could have done miles better.
Here's what I think:
* Standard is obviously going to be where it's at, because that's what tournaments are going to be in, and so that's what streamers are going to use, etc. Wild is likely going to be something like arenas - a side attraction, and a little on the weird side.
* I have no idea whether the meta in Standard is going to be "healthier" or not, I get that they have big intentions, but with a cut this blunt - "let's cut everything in extensions X and Y" - everything will depend on what the other balancing measures are like. The cut is too dumb by itself, it will very likely make things worse, not better (as in, promote something even dumber than what's currently referred to as "cancer" decks). It's their other changes after the cut that will have to make things sufficiently better, and I don't know if they'll be up to it, we'll have to see.
* For new players, things mostly don't change, the card disadvantage largely stays where it is currently at. Sure, with Standard, they are taking away cards from Naxx / GG, but they are adding one more expansion in the spring and might add even more before "the year of the Kraken" ends. If they only have the spring expansion, the card disadvantage will be just a bit less than it is now. All improvements for new players are in the future where the card disadvantage would have become completely insurmountable without the changes, things merely freeze at the current status - which is pretty rough - they stop getting worse, but they don't improve.
I don't know, thanks for the changes, I guess they are better than nothing, but I am not very thrilled. They could have done miles better.
so? you're playing a deck reno is meant to counter.
almost as silly as if freeze mage players would complain about warrior having an op hero power and should be nerfed.
GwyndolinCinder
Member
Don't think i can even be bothered to go rank 5 this month, might take a full break till standard.
Reynad has already said that tempo storm will organize big 'wild' tournaments. And tbh with the name it's very interesting for certain sponsors to attach their name to it as opposed to standard.
I think in the end Wild will be a very healthy format and was it not for Blizzard removing the old packs/adventures it could very well be the bigger format of the two down the line. But I guess that's why they do that since they want people to invest in standard every rotation. Wild will be the faster format in the end (I don't mean aggro/burn decks everywhere but decks get to execute their game plan faster) which will make it much more interesting down the line for older players, getting to play more Wild games in the same amount of time of a standard game.
Wild is extremely interesting for sponsors, the name they gave it gets people talking and I can see some companies really want to associate with Wild rather than standard. So in the end I think both formats will have a really healthy tournament scene. It's going to be the format where 'wild' things will be possible, so I expect to see some crazy combo's down the line. In the short term I'm excited for the breath of fresh air standard will provide but long term I cannot wait to see where wild will end up.
StrategyFan
Member
i hate reno because i wanted the rock paper scissors of HS not to be so extreme. it's not that the card is unbalanced. it's just dumb to lose against.
you don't learn anything from those losses. there's no adjustments you can make to your deck to avoid them. the only counter-play is to play a completely different type of deck.
it would be fine if games were 1 or 2 minutes long, but hard counters are very unfun when games take 10-20 minutes.
outside of some hunter decks that got nerfed, i just never found aggro to be so dominant that it needed extreme countermeasures. aggro was already extremely fragile against good decks. sludge belcher alone was enough to push their win rates down, and face damage has always had poor win rates against priest and warrior.
i don't even play aggro anymore outside of quests, so it barely affects me. i just hate the card
you don't learn anything from those losses. there's no adjustments you can make to your deck to avoid them. the only counter-play is to play a completely different type of deck.
it would be fine if games were 1 or 2 minutes long, but hard counters are very unfun when games take 10-20 minutes.
outside of some hunter decks that got nerfed, i just never found aggro to be so dominant that it needed extreme countermeasures. aggro was already extremely fragile against good decks. sludge belcher alone was enough to push their win rates down, and face damage has always had poor win rates against priest and warrior.
i don't even play aggro anymore outside of quests, so it barely affects me. i just hate the card
Gentle Rodriguez
Member
I played a quick game to get my pack and then quickly quit, then again I dislike most brawls so eh. I liked the co-op one though, I'm not a fan of "it's like the normal game, but with a twist!", the twist being that it's even more imbalanced than normal HS.
Yep, it's basically just "play any good ladder deck but now you have a weapon which is decided by RNG!". Not much fun, played so many boring midrange druids. Tried using rogue because I thought the weapon buffs might be insane, but that paled in comparison to just regular-ass ladder decks. This is my least favourite in a while, reminds me of banana brawl.
BlackBuzzard
Banned
He never got the time to shine and never will now
You learn to look for the signs of a Reno deck and don't burn your damage before you can secure the win.
Professor Lich
Member
I had Hunter Dominice and Everyone Get in Here! as dailies, so I made this deck for the Brawl;
Went 5-1. Just note that everyone I played were all terrible aggressors though, and after they ran out of cards it was an easy game. The one time I did lose was when a Rogue got two Gorehowls in a row, which could also mean I got really good weapon RNG too.
About the deck itself, all the Inspire minions were pretty much useless. I didn't use the hero power as much as I thought I would. As an example, between all six games I got a Squire to 2/2 and a Raider to 6/6. Desert Camel was the MVP, which normally always pulled out their Southsea Deckhand which I was able to kill to stop some silly charge combo.
I had a lot of fun with it but maybe I just got lucky.
Went 5-1. Just note that everyone I played were all terrible aggressors though, and after they ran out of cards it was an easy game. The one time I did lose was when a Rogue got two Gorehowls in a row, which could also mean I got really good weapon RNG too.
About the deck itself, all the Inspire minions were pretty much useless. I didn't use the hero power as much as I thought I would. As an example, between all six games I got a Squire to 2/2 and a Raider to 6/6. Desert Camel was the MVP, which normally always pulled out their Southsea Deckhand which I was able to kill to stop some silly charge combo.
I had a lot of fun with it but maybe I just got lucky.
Shaman isn't even that great. Rogue and frozen tempo mage are where it's at.
Well this is how alot of us feel about aggro shaman and other smorc decks. Even with smart play you often loose.
This game has been dominated by tempo / smorc decks since forever. Reno finally punishes that if you get him fast enough or dont die pre turn 6.
I do agree he is very swingy and I would prefer we got better boardclears instead or less swingy good early game control minions.
Gentle Rodriguez
Member
Playing against Reno is pretty annoying but every time I lose against it I feel like I could've played differently to avoid losing, I can't say the same after losing to some other fun and interactive decks. I'm not a fan of "whoops I didn't get a good mulligan I guess I lose".
accel
Member
I wouldn't put so much into the name - so "Wild" is a flashy word, big deal, it is just a small detail, it doesn't make or break the format. You can call your current tournament "Wild" right now, if you want, heck, if someone is so stocked on using the word Wild, they can sell their Standard tournament as "Wilder than Wild!" or whatever, it doesn't matter much.
What does is participation - and, while, as you say, "Wild" is going to be interesting for long-time players, it's not going to be interesting to everyone else - because they'd be outmatched. Add pressure from Blizzard who said that the official tournaments are going to be Standard and Wild is just going to be one more extra rating which you'd be able to obtain if you want to stray from the default. The first thing guarantees that Wild will get only a small portion of new players, most new players will be going Standard. The second thing guarantees that most of the buzz on streams will be about Standard as well. If things stay this way, Wild will end up being an outsider - sure, people would play it and have tournaments from time to time similarly to how they make their own tournaments now with external rules, like Challengestone, but...
We'll see, of course.
Gentle Rodriguez
Member
Disguised Toast is playing Secret Paladin literally blind and almost won a game, it was pretty amazing. Also it's agonizing to watch.