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Hearthstone |OT5| Corrupted Deeprock Salt

Tarazet

Member
C'Thun is probably more powerful than any current Dragon though. That mega-blastmage effect is immediately effective in ways that Alex, Nefarian and Ysera are not.

If there really are 16 cards that synergize with C'Thun, we should be able to tech around any real weaknesses - where as the Dragon decks completely rely on synergy and having a dragon in your hand.

The C'Thun effect makes me understand why they have to nerf Alexstrasza. I can see a Warlock doing Twisted Nether > Dr. 9 > C'Thun KO.
 

Chmpocalypse

Blizzard
Kars, please explain to me how one goes about making a card game wherein every permutation of deck is both varied from and equally matched with every other permutation of deck.


Chess is a game of perfect knowledge and equal tools. And even then white still has an advantage. That's a ludicrous comparison.

Not only that - assuming you want to go with such awful design, I'd like to know how in the world you test that.
 
So I casually played Hearthstone just after the game was out of Beta, having never played a Blizzard game in my life. I stopped playing after a few days but picked it back up when TGT hit. Since then, I have played HS almost daily. On top of that, I picked up Diablo III...which I now also play nightly. I just pre-ordered the latest expansion as well as Overwatch. And now tonight, I am about to fire up WoW for the very first time and grind to lvl 20 to get the new HS character.

Boy-That-Escalated-Quickly-Anchorman.gif
 
Anyone test if the auto level boosts work for the Lady Liadrin promo?

I'm not currently subscribed to WoW, but know my account has a level boost attached to it. I'd rather use that then actually level up another toon to 20.
 
Kars, please explain to me how one goes about making a card game wherein every permutation of deck is both varied from and equally matched with every other permutation of deck.


Chess is a game of perfect knowledge and equal tools. And even then white still has an advantage. That's a ludicrous comparison.
I'm not saying that a deck of 1/1s and nothing else should be on par with Renolock. I'm saying that efforts should be made to ensure the matchups of most decks within various archetypes are even. For example, right now Aggro Shaman steamrolls every other Aggro deck archetype. But every Aggro deck archetype should be, at worst, a 4-6 matchup, and should strive for 5-5 based on intelligent decisions made by both players.

If ever you can say "Oh, you lost to deck X with Y, but that's intentional and you should expect that. Use Z instead to beat X", then the game is in a state of poor balance.

Your theory makes too many assumptions. To start, different genres do indeed have different design spaces. To think otherwise just indicates you have never actually worked in game design. Second, you assume everyone would play their favorite decks, which is not the case. There will always be those who will eke out whatever advantage they can in competitive play. And third, it is impossible to completely balance separate classes as long as they retain unique cards and hero powers. There will always be a bad match up to your class just based upon the way it functions.

I get that you want to be able to win against everyone with your Hunter, but its never going to happen. You will always have a deck archetype that counters you, because that is exactly why decks are differentiated into different archetypes, each with their own strengths and weaknesses. Its not feasible for a single deck to have no weakness
There are differences, but every viable deck ought to be, at worst, a 4-6 matchup range.

Not only that - assuming you want to go with such awful design, I'd like to know how in the world you test that.
The same way you test things now, but with the goal being different.

If Blizzard were smart they would use the format change to finally give Warlock a new hero power.
That's not how you spell Shaman.

You mean Shaman and Hunter.
As I mentioned to you in chat, I wish Warriors could use their power to give +1 armor to any minion on the board.
 
If Blizzard were smart they would use the format change to finally give Warlock a new hero power.

Warlock's is fine(or at least the idea is fine), Shaman and Hunter's hero powers are garbage.

I don't understand how nobody saw Hunter's hero power being bad coming, as soon as I got into the game and found out their power I was like "oh that seems one dimensional".

And guess what, it's one dimensional.
 

Dahbomb

Member
Well in card games it's more like:

"You lost against Freeze Mage using Secret Paladin and that's a bad match up for you. But if you put in Kezan Mystic, Owls, Loatheb and Rag the match up becomes much better for you."

That's not something you can do in other competitive games which makes card balance a peculiar thing. Sometimes new players still play match ups badly and they can improve in that area (like not spamming hero power with Paladin so you have room to play your utility minions like Loatheb plus Owl).

Also this doesn't even factor card draw RNG and actual card text RNG. Some hard match ups can be won off of good luck.
 

Apathy

Member
Of man that card fully buffed, can't wait till I can use voljin.... Oh wait.

Anyone test if the auto level boosts work for the Lady Liadrin promo?

I'm not currently subscribed to WoW, but know my account has a level boost attached to it. I'd rather use that then actually level up another toon to 20.

I believe they said boosts don't count it has to be leveled on it's own.
 
Well in card games it's more like:

"You lost against Freeze Mage using Secret Paladin and that's a bad match up for you. But if you put in Kezan Mystic, Owls, Loatheb and Rag the match up becomes much better for you."

That's not something you can do in other competitive games which makes card balance a peculiar thing.

Also this doesn't even factor card draw RNG and actual card text RNG. Some hard match ups can be won off of good luck.
Actually, you absolutely can do this in Marvel. When FChamp is changing Doom from Hidden Missiles to Plasma Beam, he is basically sideboarding.

I think we've both talked before about this, and we both agree that sideboarding as an inbuilt mechanic is a great attempt to resolve this problem.

Sure, as long as they got one as broken as Warlock's.

I mean, Blizzard likes to talk about limiting design space. Life Tap is the very definition of that.
Doesn't Warlock have the most deck variance out there?
 

Tacitus_

Member
Honestly there aren't that many completely lopsided match-ups. Freeze mage vs control warrior is the biggest, and control priest tends to lose to combo decks that aim to kill you in a turn or two.
 

Dahbomb

Member
He means limiting design space in the sense that they can't print great cards for Warlock. They can't print a Demon that heals for a lot because that would be over powered in Handlock/Renolock. It's why so many Warlock cards have a big drawback. Dark Peddler is the best card they have gotten since Imp Gang in BRM.
 

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
I'm actually fine with them limiting design space on a class. That's part of giving them different identities.

Similarly Druid has a ton of bad removal because it'd be too hard to fight them if they had great removal while cheating mana.
 
I'm actually fine with them limiting design space on a class. That's part of giving them different identities.

Similarly Druid has a ton of bad removal because it'd be too hard to fight them if they had great removal while cheating mana.
Yeah, I agree with this sentiment. Class identify means pros/cons of each class.
 

Drkirby

Corporate Apologist
You know, I wonder if this will finally be the expansion that has a non-warlock demon. Maybe Holy Knight will finally be pickable when he shows up in your Scarab.
 

Chmpocalypse

Blizzard
I'm not saying that a deck of 1/1s and nothing else should be on par with Renolock. I'm saying that efforts should be made to ensure the matchups of most decks within various archetypes are even. For example, right now Aggro Shaman steamrolls every other Aggro deck archetype. But every Aggro deck archetype should be, at worst, a 4-6 matchup, and should strive for 5-5 based on intelligent decisions made by both players.

If ever you can say "Oh, you lost to deck X with Y, but that's intentional and you should expect that. Use Z instead to beat X", then the game is in a state of poor balance.


There are differences, but every viable deck ought to be, at worst, a 4-6 matchup range.


The same way you test things now, but with the goal being different.


That's not how you spell Shaman.


As I mentioned to you in chat, I wish Warriors could use their power to give +1 armor to any minion on the board.

I take it you do NOT work in software testing, then. Do you know how many manhours the work you're asking for would take to test the variables, and for no upside?
 

ZealousD

Makes world leading predictions like "The sun will rise tomorrow"
so reno jackson has to be the most anti fun card ever right

You have fun playing face decks?

Every time I play aggro Shaman I feel bad because it feels like whether I lose or die is entirely dependent on whether I draw my early minions or not.
 
I take it you do NOT work in software testing, then. Do you know how many manhours the work you're asking for would take to test the variables, and for no upside?
The full testing doesn't need to be done dev-side. Aggregate player data from strong-ish players (tournaments, events, and legendary play) is enough. People already use decktracker; I would be surprised if Blizzard didn't have an internal decktracker system to determine win/loss rates of various cards and decks. If not, shame on them!

The game can't ever be perfectly balanced, but it's worth attempting to approach such a nirvana.

From a game that apparently makes millions a month, I don't think this kind of effort is asking too much! Developers can just look at which cards are unplayed and re-evaluate them, too. Why is Felguard 100% unused? Why have I never seen a Shadowbomber? Noticing that these cards are terrible isn't that hard.

They're not buffing anything so at most they'll get some more demons(which is likely).
Yeah. :( Terrible buff/nerf policies, unfortunately.

More demons...and no voidcaller :/
One of my favorite cards. I love reanimation decks in MtG, and it's kind of similar.
 

Dahbomb

Member
Just because a card is terrible now doesn't mean it will be bad forever.

No one used Secret Keeper before MC, suddenly it's a game winning card in some situations.

Shadowbomber is potentially an insane aggro Priest card for example.
 
I'd like to see more demon minions have demon synergy, I think the only two minions that had synergy are leaving standard and now they're just a bunch of random minions. Also the lack of Voidcaller makes all demons worse.
 

jgminto

Member
A Cthun Ramp Druid with that new card seems like it could be fun. Throw in Defender of Argus for some Handlock-style taunt walls.
 

Xanathus

Member
The new Druid card is a good sign that Cthun decks might be competitive. A Cthun deck needs cards which get immediate effect based off Cthun's stats, but that Druid card alone isn't enough. There needs to be a Goblin Blastmage/Blackwing Corrupter equivalent which interacts against your opponent's board in order for a Cthun deck to really work because more likely that not a Cthun deck is going to be playing from behind since Cthun minions don't have useful effects. Frankly Druid Cthun needs to be the best since they're losing Fon + SR, but if this card is the only Cthun class card that Druids get then I doubt they'll be THE Cthun deck.

edit: another reason why Druid Cthun probably won't be a top tier deck is that with combo gone they'll be forced into a Ramp archetype which is the antithesis of Cthun decks which require playing the early Cthun minions in order to activate the midrange Cthun minions like this one

tl;dr the card is good on it's own but it probably isn't enough to make Druid Cthun a good deck unless they reveal Neutral Cthun cards which work as removal
 
I'd like to see more demon minions have demon synergy, I think the only two minions that had synergy are leaving standard and now they're just a bunch of random minions. Also the lack of Voidcaller makes all demons worse.
Eh, I feel like Demons aren't like Murlocs. You don't want them buffing each other. I think it's better if they synergize through cards like Demonwrath and Sacrificial Pact. It's just that most of the synergy options right now aren't very good.

I actually think Demonfire is an underrated card, and it just needs better targets. I mean, you can turn 1 Voidwalker, turn 2 Demonfire him, and now you have this gorgeous 3/5 taunt on the board on turn 2.

It's not the best strategy out there, but I think it has potential with some more cards. I'm particularly fond of the 6/8 Gang Boss Imp I had one game.

Demonfuse is an atrocious card, unfortunately, but Demonheart isn't bad.
 

Dahbomb

Member
If they make cards for Warlock that exploit mana crystals differential then they can use Demonfuse and Fel guard to combo it.

Stuff like "Gain mana crystals until you have the same as your opponent and give your Demons +2/+2 for each crystal gained".
 
If they make cards for Warlock that exploit mana crystals differential then they can use Demonfuse and Fel guard to combo it.

Stuff like "Gain mana crystals until you have the same as your opponent and give your Demons +2/+2 for each crystal gained".
That could be cool. I think that's a big problem with the Warlock class cards right now: they have drawbacks that are often way too consequential for the budgeted stats the demon has, and there's no reason to use them. If they gave Warlock better ways to make use of Discard, Crystal Loss, and Health Loss offensively, then I think you'd see these cards played more (yeah, Health Loss as a benefit would be insanely OP, but how else will Pit Lord and Wrathguard see play?).

I mean, Step #1 is really just letting Warlock players choose what they discard. No sane player is ever going to play a 4/3 that randomly causes a game-winning card to be lost, which then gets hit by Frostbolt or Lightning Bolt anyway.
 

Chmpocalypse

Blizzard
The full testing doesn't need to be done dev-side. Aggregate player data from strong-ish players (tournaments, events, and legendary play) is enough. People already use decktracker; I would be surprised if Blizzard didn't have an internal decktracker system to determine win/loss rates of various cards and decks. If not, shame on them!

The game can't ever be perfectly balanced, but it's worth attempting to approach such a nirvana.

From a game that apparently makes millions a month, I don't think this kind of effort is asking too much! Developers can just look at which cards are unplayed and re-evaluate them, too. Why is Felguard 100% unused? Why have I never seen a Shadowbomber? Noticing that these cards are terrible isn't that hard.


Yeah. :( Terrible buff/nerf policies, unfortunately.


One of my favorite cards. I love reanimation decks in MtG, and it's kind of similar.

As someone who does work in software testing - for Blizzard, no less - your posts just make me shake my head. I don't think you realize how impractical what you're insisting on really is. And again, for no upside, as other posters have explained very well.
 

Celegus

Member
I hate how much space Hearthstone takes up on mobile. I have basically nothing else on my phone (have just under 5gb to work with on internal storage, didn't realize you couldn't install the game entirely on SD card). Been uninstalling as many of the basic apps as I can to try to get this update installed, but it only tells you it can't install after it downloads the whole thing. If Old Gods adds much more, I will be completely unable to play anymore.
 
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