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[Fishlake]

Personally I think it is because the last 2 expansions have been fantastic that I'm feeling down about this one.

The meta has been the most fun for me after Old Gods particularly because of how fun the wild is.

I also will try creating a beast dragon druid deck.

I just wish there was not such a hard push for beast druid in this expansion. I was going to do it anyway.

 

[thepotatoman]

Classic has a lot of problems. They didn't understand how taunt or lifegain was valued. Lots of unplayable cards. Cards were typically underpowered when their mana cost was odd (3,5,7 etc).

No set has been perfect.

Cards being underpowered when their mana cost was odd is a big reason the win rates between coin and no coin were tighter in classic for arena.

That concept even got more pronounced with GvG, but died down after that.

 

[gutshot]

Firebat's ratings for the Karazhan cards:

He doesn't even have Purify as the worst card in the set.

 

[ZealousD]

I think some people's expectations on Menagerie Warden are too high.

Yes, Stranglethorn Tiger is ridonkulous. Pretty much nothing else really is.

 

[Kettch]

Here's one comment from a Blizzard dev on purify..

https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthston...te_design_and_balance_teams/d685jgw?context=3

So either they forgot that 0 mana silence existed or they didn't realize that you can use that silence on your own cards. Either way that comment just makes them look more incompetent.

Should have gone with the "sometimes we make bad cards on purpose" route.

 

[inky]

I think some people's expectations on Menagerie Warden are too high.

Yes, Stranglethorn Tiger is ridonkulous. Pretty much nothing else really is.

I think the point is that it can be very consistent. Even with a 3 drop you get value, and stuff like Druid of the Claw and Tiger push it over the edge.

Meta defining tho, we'll see I guess.

 

[ZealousD]

I think the point is that it can be very consistent. Even with a 3 drop you get value, and stuff like Druid of the Claw and Tiger push it over the edge.

Meta defining tho, we'll see I guess.

You have to remember that your beast has to be on the board. Think about how clunky it is to play Ram Wrangler sometimes, even with a card like Infested Wolf. Getting a 3-drop is good but keeping one on the board and healthy for your next turn is more difficult. So for a 3-drop it's like a clunky Faceless Summoner. 3-mana beasts is not why you play the card. That's your fallback plan. Stranglethorn Tiger is why you play Menagerie Warden, and you won't curve out with it every time. DotC is good but your opponent can damage it and you won't get the full health.

 

[Papercuts]

I think some people's expectations on Menagerie Warden are too high.

Yes, Stranglethorn Tiger is ridonkulous. Pretty much nothing else really is.

Druid of the Claw, Savage Combatant, and Mounted Raptor are all pretty great I think. And while hitting a 3 drop may make it like a clunky faceless summoner, Mage doesn't have Innervate. Following a sticky 3 drop with a 5/5 and that 3 drop again on turn 4 is a big deal, and it has a natural curve off of 2 strong 5 mana beast plays.

 

[Karsticles]

You have to remember that your beast has to be on the board. Think about how clunky it is to play Ram Wrangler sometimes, even with a card like Infested Wolf. Getting a 3-drop is good but keeping one on the board and healthy for your next turn is more difficult. So for a 3-drop it's like a clunky Faceless Summoner. 3-mana beasts is not why you play the card. That's your fallback plan. Stranglethorn Tiger is why you play Menagerie Warden, and you won't curve out with it every time. DotC is good but your opponent can damage it and you won't get the full health.

Honestly, I'm only 50 matches away from gold Hunter, and I've only had one match where I didn't have beasts for Ram Wrangler since OG came out. Infested Wolf pretty much guarantees it.

 

[fertygo]

You know what I'm relatively new to the game, and while everyone cry this is worst meta ever after like a week of standard already, Standard and even today still provide the best HS experience to me.. I finally on even ground and not facing all those OP deathrattle card that I do not had before standard. I still had a lot of fun with HS today, and its my go to card game.

Even so I still legit upset to recent event, its really disappointing of what devs team clearly dictating of what that can be good and what that can be not, its quite clear they don't want combo or control deck can be better, they just want minion on curve and that just not fun.

The Spring Season HCT Finals really demonstrate this, its awful to watch with "pro" player play like what usually you see in ladder.

Then Token Druid happened, its a non curve deck that quite strong even so have quick snowball potential too but its just much less predictable than other top deck at these day, its made competitive HS kinda watchable again with most of player think its strong enough to bring to tourney. Match that revolving around that deck usually pretty damn fun.

Now this adventure happened, with most of card seem underwhelming.. and the one that looks impactful is the one that promote specific playstyle to play on curve and create board that hard to counter.. its just so upsetting to me. And pretty apparent lack of awareness for other mode benefit (Arena)

Based on all this, I upset the most not to adventure card quality, but to what apparent direction that devs team to push.


I don't know maybe this kind of meta not really bad after all of remnant from all older set that very OP in meta gone (Alextrasza champ and tunnel trogg)

but how I can confident they not gonna create another tunnel trogg, Call of the Wild happened, 4 mana 7/7 happened, and now Managerie Warden about to exist.

 

[patchday]

Looking at Firebat's list a lot of those cards got some high scores (even into meta-defining terriority). That's why I've personally been ignoring a lot of the complaints from people cause I just think they are blowing this wayyyy out of proportion. So much crying and stuff and threats of quitting. kind of crazy too me lol what a passionate community I must say

You'd think Blizz forcing people to play these cards

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

So either they forgot that 0 mana silence existed or they didn't realize that you can use that silence on your own cards. Either way that comment just makes them look more incompetent.

Should have gone with the "sometimes we make bad cards on purpose" route.

Silence doesn't cycle a card though. And now you can double the amount of silences in your deck to add consistency. And lets face it, if you really want to build a deck around silencing your own minions, 2 silences are not gonna cut it anyway. And purify actually seems better than running something clunky like hoot hoot owl or that 4cc.

If you are running this type of silence your own minion type of deck, you may not care about the 2 extra mana over silence because of the cycle. You certainly don't gain anything from silencing your minion the same turn you play it, except for perhaps barnes type of token silence to make a big minion. But for can't attack types, it's not necessary.

Lets say you play an ancient watcher one turn and then purify the next turn, that's actually different than playing a yeti. You're thinning your deck due to a cantrip. And paying 2 now and 2 later is better than playing 4 all at once (see overload).

Sure, I don't think it's a great card. But the outrage over it is just silly. It probably will never see competitive play. But neither do the majority of cards released.

 

[fertygo]

Looking at Firebat's list a lot of those cards got some high scores (even into meta-defining terriority). That's why I've personally been ignoring a lot of the complaints from people cause I just think they are blowing this wayyyy out of proportion. So much crying and stuff and threats of quitting. kind of crazy too me lol what a passionate community I must say

You'd think Blizz forcing people to play these cards

people complain not to card quality, but its effect to shaping meta.. which is all sign lead to nothing.. HS update is already pretty damn rare, balance nerfing happen once a year.. so the only hope change happen in-between is new card, and since new cards will change fucking nothing, peep like me upset, simple.

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

people complain not to card quality, but its effect to shaping meta.. which is all sign lead to nothing.. HS update is already pretty damn rare, balance nerfing happen once a year.. so the only hope change happen in-between is new card, and since new cards will change fucking nothing, peep like me upset, simple.

Every card set people think nothing will change. That has never been true even once.

I'll amend my original statement, the only time this didn't happen was last expansion because the change from wild to standard.

 

[patchday]

people complain not to card quality, but its effect to shaping meta.. which is all sign lead to nothing.. HS update is already pretty damn rare, balance nerfing happen once a year.. so the only hope change happen in-between is new card, and since new cards will change fucking nothing, peep like me upset, simple.

Good, I like this meta.

 

[fertygo]

Sure, I don't think it's a great card. But the outrage over it is just silly. It probably will never see competitive play. But neither do the majority of cards released.

Its worst card in the set for already worst class in the game, and heck you can see it as deliberate attempt to cripple the class that never will play in style that they promote, oh shut up saying the outrage is nothing

 

[patchday]

If these guys [Video: Hearthstone Pros Were Wrong About Old Gods Cards] can get so much stuff wrong I can only wonder how accurate random players are.

I have about 2% faith into negative doom and gloom predictions right now.

Now once set releases we'll see. But I dont care much either way I guess.

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

Its worst card in the set for already worst class in the game, and heck you can see it as deliberate attempt to cripple the class that never will play in style that they promote, oh shut up saying the outrage is nothing

I didn't say the outrage is nothing. I said it's silly. Telling me to shut up... also very immature.

Calling it a deliberate attempt to cripple priest? Tinfoil hat much? lol

edit:
Anyway, I am just trying to have a conversation about the card. I really don't care if people's outrage is justified or not. At the end of the day it's just a card. Just like over-nerfing blade flurry was just a card, and that should be considered a bigger deal than adding a dud to priest.

 

[fertygo]

I didn't say the outrage is nothing. I said it's silly. Telling me to shut up... also very immature.

Calling it a deliberate attempt to cripple priest? Tinfoil hat much? lol

maybe I'm a bit rude, but to be honest you always blindly defending blizzard annoy me.. but I'm sorry I guess.

I'm not saying its the case but its so bad to the point you can justify that angle, its just so forceful, we also most likely never see good new board clear for same reason.

 

[KuroNeeko]

Man, I main Priest and I'm not even as down on this set as some of you other guys. lol

I still think there's some fun stuff to play around with and I'm still going to craft Herald V. next.

I think the view from a competitive player's perspective is probably a lot different than what the average player thinks.

There are some things I miss. I miss Lightbomb and Shrinkmeister. I miss Deathlord and Chow and that whole style of play. In the end though it's a choice--your choice. Blizzard makes the game; you decide if you want to play it. I think it's still fun enough to give it my time and money, and I think people are taking criticism a bit too far when they start verbally insulting or attacking other humans beings because things aren't turning out the way they wanted.

I think some people's expectations on Menagerie Warden are too high.

Yes, Stranglethorn Tiger is ridonkulous. Pretty much nothing else really is.

Maybe, but it's going to be strong. As a Priest, I have no idea what I'd do against a turn 6 Stalking Tiger / MW play.

Menagerie Warden + Savage Combatant is pretty good too. Copying any beast you have on the table is actually pretty good.

 

[ZealousD]

If these guys [Video: Hearthstone Pros Were Wrong About Old Gods Cards] can get so much stuff wrong I can only wonder how accurate random players are.

I have about 2% faith into negative doom and gloom predictions right now.

Now once set releases we'll see. But I dont care much either way I guess.

GAF -> Internet -> GAF

Spoiler

That's my video, lol

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

maybe I'm a bit rude, but to be honest you always blindly defending blizzard annoy me.. but I'm sorry I guess.

I'm not saying its the case but its so bad to the point you can justify that angle, its just so forceful, we also most likely never see good new board clear for same reason.

I've never blindly defended Blizzard. I've always tried to at least explain my perspective/opinion. And I literally just wrote several paragraphs and you zoned in on a singular comment about the outrage being silly and ignored everything else. I wasn't even trying to defend blizzard in that post and I frankly don't view it that way still.

 

[patchday]

The nice thing bout this meta (for youngins like me) is that yes- the meta is limited. But this is great when you're trying to learn the ropes and climb. Yes I pretty much know what is coming around Turn 2 but thats obviously a good thing for newer players. A smaller pool of competitive decks allows us to grasp the game faster and do well!

In my mind vets can just go hit up Wild if they want to see more variety. I play Wild sometimes and its crazy over there! Would take many hrs to learn all those decks there and how to fend for myself

Anyway just ramblings from a fairly new player and explaining why I love it and why you might see some resistance to the idea of "brand new meta"

I come from League of Legends which has near infinite combinations of champs, items, etc. It was too much expecially with a constantly changing meta. Its just too much. Very glad changes come slow here!!!!!! Everytime I logged into LoL crap changed so much.

 

[fertygo]

I think Beast Druid isn't not gonna that good but I really not looking forward seeing the turn 6 powerplay happened against me either

Its Trogg + Feral and coin + alextrasza champ, or highmane into call level of tilting

 

[_DrMario_]

Let me buy only the wings I want and I won't complain about this shit ass expansion.

 

[patchday]

Let me buy only the wings I want and I won't complain about this shit ass expansion.

But this isnt an expansion this an adventure. It's not intended to expand the entire meta but rather entertain you for a bit and give you some cards.

I think some people trying to treat this as a full blown expansion (like WoTG).

I'm new but even I understand the difference between the two so I'm sure you know this too

 

[Officerrob]

Looking at Firebat's list a lot of those cards got some high scores (even into meta-defining terriority). That's why I've personally been ignoring a lot of the complaints from people cause I just think they are blowing this wayyyy out of proportion. So much crying and stuff and threats of quitting. kind of crazy too me lol what a passionate community I must say

You'd think Blizz forcing people to play these cards

Firebat only had 13 cards as playable. It's kinda hard to cite someone who thinks the vast majority of cards are unplayable while saying people are blowing things out of proportion

 

[Karsticles]

But this isnt an expansion this an adventure. It's not intended to expand the entire meta but rather entertain you for a bit and give you some cards.

I think some people trying to treat this as a full blown expansion (like WoTG).

I'm new but even I understand the difference between the two so I'm sure you know this too

I get that you are new, but this is entirely untrue. Each previous adventure has expanded the meta and filled holes in archetypes. They are like expansions without an abundance of fluff.

Most adventures introduced entirely new archetypes of play, or at least attempted to. The Curator is the closest thing this adventure has to a new archetype.

 

[patchday]

I get that you are new, but this is entirely untrue. Each previous adventure has expanded the meta and filled holes in archetypes. They are like expansions without an abundance of fluff.

I dont think LoE has done that tho. I'll have to think bout that somemore. But LoE has way less impact on my decks then WoTG

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

Firebat only had 13 cards as playable. It's kinda hard to cite someone who thinks the vast majority of cards are unplayable while saying people are blowing things out of proportion

I think chakki's stream came to around the same conclusion, but they were also talking about competitive play only in the current meta.

 

[Officerrob]

I think chakki's stream came to around the same conclusion, but they were also talking about competitive play only in the current meta.

I think Chakki's stream of reviewers had even less cards as playable

 

[fertygo]

I think Chakki's stream of reviewers had even less cards as playable

they had like 8

and had valet as "very good" which like I dunno man..

 

[Mulgrok]

went 11-3 in arena on warrior. Missed 12 due to Malkorak equipping a cursed blade.

 

[Trigger_happy]

Last time this kind of shitstorm happened was right before LoE announcement when people realized that TGT sucks and that nerfing patron isn't a miracle cure for the meta. LoE really helped the game that time, we will see what happens now, I'm not optimistic.

 

[LucidMomentum]

Last time this kind of shitstorm happened was right before LoE announcement when people realized that TGT sucks and that nerfing patron isn't a miracle cure for the meta. LoE really helped the game that time, we will see what happens now, I'm not optimistic.

More mage, more warrior. More salt.

 

[Cat Party]

Do people think there is no chance Malchezar will work in a fatigue/monkey deck? Seems like the card has been written off as trash. Are we making the same mistake that was made in evaluating Elise to begin with?

 

[Karsticles]

I dont think LoE has done that tho. I'll have to think bout that somemore. But LoE has way less impact on my decks then WoTG

Each adventure has the biggest impact when it is newest. LoE's influence peaked before OG was released.

Going through the cards:

Obsidian Destroyer - extremely strong Arena pick, but always just out of competitive play
Jeweled Scarab - sometimes used in Control Shaman decks
Forgotten Torch - standard in Freeze Mage, sometimes used in other decks
Reno Jackson - gave birth to an entirely new deck archetype
Dark Peddler - run in 100% of Warlock decks AFAIK
Tunnel Trogg - filled a gap in Shaman and made Aggro Shaman top tier
Ethereal Conjurer - used to be auto-include in Tempo Mage, but now it's iffy because of Conjurer's Tome
Mounted Raptor - standard in Deathrattle Druid and Beast Druid
Tomb Spider - strong Arena pick, sometimes used in Beast Hunter pre-OG
Unearthed Raptor - basically created pre-OG Deathrattle Rogue
Fierce Monkey - used to be heavily used in Patron Warrior, but that's a dead deck now
Reliquary Seeker - often picked from Dark Peddler
Brann Bronzebeard - created new super-strong combos, especially post-OG
Excavated Evil - frequently used in Priest
Keeper of Uldaman - standard in Paladin
Huge Toad - standard in Hunter
Gorillabot - good Arena pick, is used in Mech decks when people still use them in Wild
Anyfin Can Happen - led to Murlocs being used for the first time ever and birthed a new archetype
Sir Finley - frequently used in aggro decks
Entomb - probably the second most hated card in the game pre-OG
Tomb Pillager - standard in all current Rogue decks
Raven Idol - used in Yogg Druid
Museum Curator - frequent inclusion in Priest decks, especially N'Zoth Priest
Elise Starseeker - single-handedly changed the control mirror matchup
Wobbling Runts - good Curator and Arena pick
Desert Camel - created a new Hunter deck archetype
Arch-Thief Rafaam - used in Tempo Warrior

Look at that list. Here are the cards that rarely, or don't, see play:
Explorer's Hat
Djinni of Zephers
Ancient Shade
Anubisath Sentinel
Summoning Stone (sometimes)
Rumbling Elemental
Sacred Trial
Dart Trap
Everyfin is Awesome (sometimes)
Jungle Moonkin
Murloc Tinyfin (sometimes)
Pit Snake
Naga Sea Witch (inb4 Dahbomb)
Fossilized Devilsaur
Cursed Blade
Animated Armor
Curse of Rafaam
Eerie Statue

There are significantly more good cards in the set than bad ones. Even then, many of the bad cards had good ideas, but poor execution. Cards like Naga Sea Witch, Pit Snake, Animated Armor, and Curse of Rafaam are interesting ideas that didn't play out in the meta. I personally have an Explorer's Hat love, and I once lost a game because I had 10 hats in my hand and couldn't draw cards. :-(

Compare that to the current adventure, and I think it's clear why people are disappointed.

Do people think there is no chance Malchezar will work in a fatigue/monkey deck? Seems like the card has been written off as trash. Are we making the same mistake that was made in evaluating Elise to begin with?

I think it might see play in a Fatigue deck, but those aren't strong right now, which is why people are rating it poorly. Even Blizzard admitted that the card is primarily designed for newbies to experience cards they don't have.

 

[fertygo]

Do people think there is no chance Malchezar will work in a fatigue/monkey deck? Seems like the card has been written off as trash. Are we making the same mistake that was made in evaluating Elise to begin with?

All depend if class leg show often enough IMO

 

[patchday]

Each adventure has the biggest impact when it is newest. LoE's influence peaked before OG was released.

Going through the cards:

Obsidian Destroyer - extremely strong Arena pick, but always just out of competitive play
Jeweled Scarab - sometimes used in Control Shaman decks
Forgotten Torch - standard in Freeze Mage, sometimes used in other decks
Reno Jackson - gave birth to an entirely new deck archetype
Dark Peddler - run in 100% of Warlock decks AFAIK
Tunnel Trogg - filled a gap in Shaman and made Aggro Shaman top tier
Ethereal Conjurer - used to be auto-include in Tempo Mage, but now it's iffy because of Conjurer's Tome
Mounted Raptor - standard in Deathrattle Druid and Beast Druid
Tomb Spider - strong Arena pick, sometimes used in Beast Hunter pre-OG
Unearthed Raptor - basically created pre-OG Deathrattle Rogue
Fierce Monkey - used to be heavily used in Patron Warrior, but that's a dead deck now
Reliquary Seeker - often picked from Dark Peddler
Brann Bronzebeard - created new super-strong combos, especially post-OG
Excavated Evil - frequently used in Priest
Keeper of Uldaman - standard in Paladin
Huge Toad - standard in Hunter
Gorillabot - good Arena pick, is used in Mech decks when people still use them in Wild
Anyfin Can Happen - led to Murlocs being used for the first time ever and birthed a new archetype
Sir Finley - frequently used in aggro decks
Entomb - probably the second most hated card in the game pre-OG
Tomb Pillager - standard in all current Rogue decks
Raven Idol - used in Yogg Druid
Museum Curator - frequent inclusion in Priest decks, especially N'Zoth Priest
Elise Starseeker - single-handedly changed the control mirror matchup
Wobbling Runts - good Curator and Arena pick
Desert Camel - created a new Hunter deck archetype
Arch-Thief Rafaam - used in Tempo Warrior

Look at that list. Here are the cards that rarely, or don't, see play:
Explorer's Hat
Djinni of Zephers
Ancient Shade
Anubisath Sentinel
Summoning Stone (sometimes)
Rumbling Elemental
Sacred Trial
Dart Trap
Everyfin is Awesome (sometimes)
Jungle Moonkin
Murloc Tinyfin (sometimes)
Pit Snake
Naga Sea Witch (inb4 Dahbomb)
Fossilized Devilsaur
Cursed Blade
Animated Armor
Curse of Rafaam
Eerie Statue

There are significantly more good cards in the set than bad ones. Even then, many of the bad cards had good ideas, but poor execution. Cards like Naga Sea Witch, Pit Snake, Animated Armor, and Curse of Rafaam are interesting ideas that didn't play out in the meta. I personally have an Explorer's Hat love, and I once lost a game because I had 10 hats in my hand and couldn't draw cards. :-(

Compare that to the current adventure, and I think it's clear why people are disappointed.


I think it might see play in a Fatigue deck, but those aren't strong right now, which is why people are rating it poorly. Even Blizzard admitted that the card is primarily designed for newbies to experience cards they don't have.

oh god I feel bad I made you type all that I'm a dick

I'm going to defer to your point I forgot Trogg comes from LoE

 

[Karsticles]

oh god I feel bad I made you type all that I'm a dick

I'm going to defer to your point I forgot Trogg comes from LoE

No apologies necessary. While I knew LoE was a far superior set, I have never sat down and look at it as a whole. I enjoyed doing it for my own knowledge.

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

More mage, more warrior. More salt.

At least warrior didn't seem to get much for dragon warrior. I think the 3/4 is a great weapon but I think the reviews on that have been pretty middle of the road.

 

[patchday]

I should have thought about that somemore that someone that has been playing far longer than me was actually here to witness all the crap going down

Thanks I'm going to think more on your list this will help me more in Arena. Been blindly using HearthArena which is great but this is good info.

I will make your effort count lol I will try hard

 

[fertygo]

Cursed blade is in the meta yo, serve to fuck you because playing with RNG /Kappa

 

[patchday]

Let me buy only the wings I want and I won't complain about this shit ass expansion.

this post makes much more sense now that I have been enlightened thanks guys

 

[clav]

Maybe Purify is really a Yogg nerf.

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

Anyfin Can Happen - led to Murlocs being used for the first time ever and birthed a new archetype

Murlocs were tier 1 at one point in the original set. Later blood imp was nerfed and it sorta fell off the radar. Blood imp used to be a 1/1 stealth that gave all friendly minions +1 hp as an aura.

Maybe Purify is really a Yogg nerf.

Could do worse than drawing one card.

But yeah, since guaranteed to silence your own guy.

 

[fertygo]

Would've nice if silence stop yogg casting, unfortunately not.

 

[greepoman]

I should have thought about that somemore that someone that has been playing far longer than me was actually here to witness all the crap going down

Thanks I'm going to think more on your list this will help me more in Arena. Been blindly using HearthArena which is great but this is good info.

I will make your effort count lol I will try hard

Honestly I think some people look at LOE with rose colored glasses and I get where you were originally coming from.

Here's why...top decks before WoToG/standard were basically
combo druid (no loe cards)
aggro shaman (tunnel trogg)
secret pally (1 loe card)
zoo (2 loe card)
Control warr (1 loe card)

With most of these decks being tier1 before LoE

Karsticles is right that there was a lot of viable tier2 stuff (and maybe edging t1), but if LOE was so game changing we wouldn't have been dying for standard and believe me we all were. So you might look back and say that WoToG had more affect on your decks...but that was actually because of standard (naxx and gvg left the meta) moreso than wotog cards.

 

[clav]

LoE brought Discover to the game.

That's game changing.

 

[KuroNeeko]

But yeah, since guaranteed to silence your own guy.

Or a buff since he's always casting Humility on himself.

HUMBLE YOGG!