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Hearthstone |OT8| Elise's Extremely Irresponsible Field Trip To Un'Goro
- Thread starter ZealousD
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boring accountant
Banned
Yep, totally get that. I think a lot of people nowadays have forgotten how fun it is to tinker with deck concepts. At least in this game. Because I play a lot of control warrior I will try a few lists with your combo and report back.
I agree with this somewhat. Well, to the extent that totems are problematic I think we can mostly agree that it comes down to spellpower totem), and it's unhealthy interaction with a lot of Shaman cards.
That makes me think that if they do change the order, spellpower should probably be towards the back. But I dont' actually think blizzard will actually do that. I think they are pretty dead set on keeping shaman hero power the way it is, for whatever reason.
Glass Shark
Banned
I am on a nearly week-long shitty streak in this game. I have pretty much every top meta deck at my disposal, and whatever I play, I'm getting pitted against my worst matchup. And I'm getting killed by fucking Murloc decks with perfect opening draws.
This game doesn't want me to win.
This game doesn't want me to win.
The history of the Shaman class is that it has been garbage forever until it got broken cards that made it broken. It was a garbage class before because its spells were tuned with spell damage and Overload in mind which means you really needed to high roll with the spell damage to make Shaman do well.
Then they made Spell damage synergy cards for Shaman along with Totem synergy cards and Overload cards that were too powerful that spiraled out of control in part because of the swing nature of the hero power. This makes playing against Shaman unfun. This wasn't an issue before because Shaman wasn't good but the issue was always there... you can't have RNG on a class at such a fundamental level.
It's possible that Shaman becomes crap tier again after rotation if they don't get good cards anymore. It's a terrible situation all around... the class is either doomed to be awful because of the expansion cards it gets as its hero power and core set is unreliable or it gets broken cards that make it absurd.
Shaman also needs a clearer class identity with clear strengths and weaknesses. Right now Shaman has burst, statted minions, Tempo plays, effecient weapons, board clears, heals, Totem synergy, Murloc synergy, spell damage synergy, Overload synergy, Jade synergy, windfury stuff (that never seems to get pushed further), Evolve stuff etc. So the way you actually build a Shaman deck is to put as many degenerate cards in the deck as possible to improve your win rates. This has been the way Shamans have built their decks since they got good. There's no unifying theme to the decks, it's an amalgam of overload/totems/spell damage/pirates/Jade stuff that you use to curve out then push face.
Haven't played a lot lately. Still have a cold and fever.
But once I played it seems a lot of Legend players still around 10-15.
Yeah, a legend beat me and added and then delete me.
Maybe he was hoping I was a legend too. Lol.
But once I played it seems a lot of Legend players still around 10-15.
Yeah, a legend beat me and added and then delete me.
Maybe he was hoping I was a legend too. Lol.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Shaman hasn't been garbage forever. There have been several times that shaman has actually been quite good. There have been a couple times where midrange and aggressive midrange shaman shined, and then times when aggro shaman and mech shaman have shined. This all happened before they got a lot of the cards they use in recent expansions. That is a better history than just calling it garbage forever.
I know this because I have played shaman all along. Actually I have played shaman mostly in the eras where they haven't had broken stuff.
I'm not worried about shaman in the future. Sometimes classes will have expansions of weakness.
I know this because I have played shaman all along. Actually I have played shaman mostly in the eras where they haven't had broken stuff.
I'm not worried about shaman in the future. Sometimes classes will have expansions of weakness.
boring accountant
Banned
While Shaman was not garbage forever, for all of pre-Naxx it was certainly the weakest class after priest. The fact that Gaara was GaaraBestShaman back then was a point to how successful he was as the only Shaman main. Sort of mirroring how Amaz became known for priest. In vanilla HS Shaman definitely was a bit too slow, needing a late Doomhammer or Alakir rockbiter combo to finish a game. But I agree once belcher and later mechs came into play, Shaman had a great run.
Personally, I very much enjoy the jade variant of shaman because it reminds me of the midrange days. Shaman was always the next best control and late game deck after warrior. Aggro shaman on the otherhand just does not feel right. Mech aggro wasn't as aggressive as this. It felt more like a tempo mage to be honest.
Shaman has been bottom 2 for sure from beta to GvG where they got Mech Shaman but even then that wasn't too hot of a deck, just a random aggro deck that can sometime steal games (plus we had better aggro options back then with Hunters, Aggro Paladins). Shaman remained bottom 2 until after LOE when they got Tunnel Trogg and the 1-2 punch of Trogg into Totem Golem was possible. That basically resurrected Aggro Shaman into a power house.
Before the only thing Mid Shaman was relevant for was beating Handlocks.
It's all relative of course. Before LoE I would have had Shaman as bottom 2 overall class in HS free, only being better than Priest. Rogue has been dominating since the start of HS with Miracoli, Tempo decks and then Oil Rogue. Druid had combo for the longest time that they dominated with. Paladin had aggro and control variant although wasn't that strong until GvG (this is a class that mirrors Shaman in sharing issues although at least it does not have a random hero power). With Warrior, Aggro and control Warrior was always a thing. Mages always had Freeze Mage and always managed to be relevant. Hunters always had the premiere aggro decks and Warlock always either had Zoo or Handlock on top. There really wasn't much room for Shaman to stand above the rest when other classes had more busted stuff that needed to be toned down.
Before the only thing Mid Shaman was relevant for was beating Handlocks.
It's all relative of course. Before LoE I would have had Shaman as bottom 2 overall class in HS free, only being better than Priest. Rogue has been dominating since the start of HS with Miracoli, Tempo decks and then Oil Rogue. Druid had combo for the longest time that they dominated with. Paladin had aggro and control variant although wasn't that strong until GvG (this is a class that mirrors Shaman in sharing issues although at least it does not have a random hero power). With Warrior, Aggro and control Warrior was always a thing. Mages always had Freeze Mage and always managed to be relevant. Hunters always had the premiere aggro decks and Warlock always either had Zoo or Handlock on top. There really wasn't much room for Shaman to stand above the rest when other classes had more busted stuff that needed to be toned down.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
10/16 players in blizzcon 2014 brought shaman. Just an example of a period where shaman was not garbage. Even when UT hunter was running amok, there was a shaman midrange list that could run it into the ground quite easily due to lava bursts and doomhammer being able to race the hunter.
Pre-naxx? I started playing shaman after naxx came out so there is a gap in my memory about shaman. Hard to call it the weakest after priest though, when paladin was extremely lacking.
I think gaarabestshaman is just a name. It don't even think he became popular due to shaman at all lol
Pre-naxx? I started playing shaman after naxx came out so there is a gap in my memory about shaman. Hard to call it the weakest after priest though, when paladin was extremely lacking.
I think gaarabestshaman is just a name. It don't even think he became popular due to shaman at all lol
boring accountant
Banned
If you weren't playing the game since pre-open beta and following players from then of course you would not know about them or their history. That doesn't disprove anything I said. Tirion alone put paladin above shaman in those days because he was that powerful.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I've been playing the game since closed beta. Please re-read my post. It says I wasn't playing shaman specifically (and I should note I only meant I wasn't playing shaman heavily).
And no, tirion did not put paladin above shaman. We're talking about an era with 5 mana auctioneer. Paladin vs classic era miracle rogue where rogue could pull off 20 damage combo by turn 8.
Shaman midrange back then was pretty much the first "zoo" deck. Far better than anything Paladin could muster.
The Last One
Member
The ranked matches are so trash in this meta. The aggro decks are ruining everything.
I honestly dont feel this meta is worse then any other we have had. While I agree that the amount of aggro decks is annoying and their power leads to, sometimes, very uninteresting and non interactive matches, it has been, and allways will be the case as long as the ranking system is the way it is.
The Last One
Member
I really think it is. I know that almost every match we'll depend on RNG to win ou lose a match but If we take the Pirate Warrior for example we will always need luck to even survive until turn 5. This is really bad.
But this is hardly the first time aggro decks in HS have worked like that. (Not saying its a good thing)
slightconfuse
Banned
They should drop overload and just print fairer cards.
FormallyFamicom
Member
That's a keeper.
https://hsreplay.net/replay/3B987ZSqpoUXLG44DyRXoE
I mean, the guy could have stuck around and possibly won the game, but I want to believe he committed seppuku for his tremendous failure.
I mean, the guy could have stuck around and possibly won the game, but I want to believe he committed seppuku for his tremendous failure.
The Last One
Member
Yes, I agree. But don't you think it's a little too much at the current meta? The games are too fast thanks to that, and since most decks are Shaman or Warrior the game is kinda ruined if you wanna take a more strategic approach.
Well done. My favorite card.
Damn Kripp goes ham on the current meta:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJmnVieooUo
I don't really agree with a couple of his points though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJmnVieooUo
I don't really agree with a couple of his points though.
Oh yeah absolutely!
chillybright
Banned
Pretty good points elaborated by Kripp.
That contrast between design philosophy of lol team and HS team is immense.
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
Video of Riot patch philosophy he was refering to:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vdf0SDk2LLg&t=0m31s
Team 5 patch philosophy is "lets be extremely slow and cautious so we don't accidentally break this cash cow we've made"
soulslayer
Member
What happened? Did he just quit Hearthstone? Or did he quit the GAF HS thread? Was wondering why he wasn't posting anymore.
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thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=227731125
And you edited it out, but I didn't notice Mobius's avatar change either until you said something.
I think team 5 is more "make all changes at once" instead of slow and cautious. The meta shifts dramatically whenever they nuke cards to hell and/or unleash OP bullshit.
soulslayer
Member
Thanks for sharing this. Damn, I didn't know Levi was going through this much shit. Hope he's doing well now.
Oh, you caught that edit huh? Haha. And yeah, the reason I thought Mobius wasn't posting anymore was because I wasn't seeing the Valeera avatar anymore. Turns out, he just changed his avatar.
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thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
Maybe.
Problem is, the Yogg nerf meta made things worse overall, as predicted by Reynad. It succeeded cutting a couple of absolutely infurating RNG free win cards, but the meta was absolute crap after that with a terribly unpowered Midrange Shaman at the top of the list.
Too bad the only solution after that was to wait for months until Gadgetzan comes out to make the meta slightly more diverse, but even faster.
Maybe if they listened to Kripp and released smaller but more often, that wouldn't have happened.
Glass Shark
Banned
I think Kripp can be kind of an ass sometimes, but his latest video on meta is pretty good. He suggests Blizzard make bigger and more frequent changes, but it seems like Blizzard is way too averse to that.
I'm mostly sad at the death of mid-range decks. I think some people considered this curvestone and are happy it is gone, but you can't play a deck like Hunter that simply drops minions on curve unless it has a gimmick. You either get out valued by reno decks, out faced by shaman/warrior or out tempo'd by rogue decks.
Mid-range Paladin was the first deck I got to Legend with and it was extremely fun and powerful. I loved that it could compete against any deck in the game. Mid-range Hunter served some of the same purpose, but on the more aggressive side.
Mid-range Paladin was the first deck I got to Legend with and it was extremely fun and powerful. I loved that it could compete against any deck in the game. Mid-range Hunter served some of the same purpose, but on the more aggressive side.
While I think Riot's philosophy is better, I still think they're way too nerf happy like Hearthstone.
They really should look back at cards (Especially basic and classic) and buff them.
The fact that zero cards get buffed is stupid.
Wouldn't buffing cards encourage people to use the cards they have rather than buying new ones though? One would assume that a greedy approach for maximizing money would involve always nerfing so people always have to keep up, unless a truly significant number of players leave.
grats!
maybe... Well Duelyst is 40 card decks and from what I understand those matches are very fast. it doesnt really matter how fat devs make the decks as long as folks can vomit out a bunch of over-stated minions really fast on curve
Frequent nerfs are unfeasible HS since unlike MOBAs it targets cell phones. Takes quite awhile to get pass certs on Apple.Plus yeah there is the massive attachment people have to their cards. When they are nerfed 'indirectly' that means potentially thousands of dust can go to waste. MOBAs dont have that issue. I feel that although Kripp video is good content and has many great points. Constant nerfs is not really feasible.
As painful as this meta may or may not be- at least no one can not say they have not got a chance to fully get their fill of playing with pirates. Even I must say I have gotten my fill playing with them. But i fear nerfs will bring back Control Warrior which is a deck I hate with passion playing against. but since my playtime has dropped off quite a bit-- I would not want Blizz to really cater to my preferences
funny I slowed down my posting right around when he left too
Karsticles
Member
Duelyst is 40 card decks with 3x of each card.
Hearthstone is 30 card decks with 2x of each card.
So Duelyst will be more consistent when it comes to aggro.
This won't make the game slow down at all, it will just make it more random.
did you watch Ben brode video on why they avoid it? Financially it is unfeasible since he claims the main 'work' they invest is actually in design and testing phases. CCG devs can merely contract out Art assets. Thus- from his point of view, buffing old cards or adding new ones are one and the same. Even Kripp had to sort of agree to that point although he still asks for constant nerfs due to this superfast meta
All that said I do look forward to a new meta- but I am looking towards the rotation. I'd love to see Reno rotate out along with Justicar. plus some of the over stated minions will go. By then I expect Pirates nerf to go green
Been saving my gold for new expansion. no real point to experimenting in this meta. I have fun sometimes but its just too fast. so saving my gold and dust
Oh don't get me wrong, I know WHY they don't do it, but it's just stupid.
If buffing a classic card or two per big patch critically messes with your game's cash flow, then you're slowly digging yourself into a deeper hole.
^ Ah gotcha!
If some older useless classic cards, etc got buffed I'd feel encouraged to spend more money to get dust to craft the buffed cards. There's still some cards I am missing (like Deathwing- although it doesnt need a buff lol). And there's some of the new expansion cards that I feel could be more flexible and fun to use
Maybe they will come around at some point? People are giving Riot a lot of credit but we must recall- Riot just 'recently' (last season) started reworking a lot of old classic champs (Yorrick and some others like Poppy). It had many champs that saw no play (this is a statistical fact and you never saw them in pro matches either).
Alas, yeah I must admit it would be cool to see the meta get revamped in some way. hopefully will get a shake out soon. surely Blizzard doesnt want folks like me just hoarding all our dust and gold. The goal should be to tempt to unload all my wealth now so I'll be forced to spend a lot of cash on the expac
If some older useless classic cards, etc got buffed I'd feel encouraged to spend more money to get dust to craft the buffed cards. There's still some cards I am missing (like Deathwing- although it doesnt need a buff lol). And there's some of the new expansion cards that I feel could be more flexible and fun to use
Maybe they will come around at some point? People are giving Riot a lot of credit but we must recall- Riot just 'recently' (last season) started reworking a lot of old classic champs (Yorrick and some others like Poppy). It had many champs that saw no play (this is a statistical fact and you never saw them in pro matches either).
Alas, yeah I must admit it would be cool to see the meta get revamped in some way. hopefully will get a shake out soon. surely Blizzard doesnt want folks like me just hoarding all our dust and gold. The goal should be to tempt to unload all my wealth now so I'll be forced to spend a lot of cash on the expac
Lone_Prodigy
Member
This Tavern Brawl is pretty fun, but I was locked in this game against a Priest who probably played 10 Drakonid Operatives. It was so annoying I just conceded.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I think it could because decks would be less efficient.
If you made it so you could have 3 of each card, I'd argue it would make things more consistent. But personally I don't think the standard max deck size should be changed (Though I'd love a legendary card that actually did lower or increase the max deck size)
Personally, I think most of Hearthstone Problems are rooted in Blizard not printing enough cards per set. Classic had 245 cards in it, while each expansion set only has 130ish. If the expansions were a similar size to Classic, Blizard could give each class more archetypes to work with each expansion, and not have to put all their eggs in one basket (Like Hand Buffing fell flat, and now Hunter and Paladin are barely played). While it won't directly fix the balancing issues, it should fix the issues of the game becoming stale so quickly after an expansion releases.
I also feel they have been printing less and less build around cards each expansion. Stuff like Hobgoblin, Feign Death, and Echo of Medivh, that promote entirely different archetypes (Where stuff like Jade Token and Small time Recruits just promote existing archetypes IMO)
slightconfuse
Banned
A big problem with ladder and patching is threat on the hearthstone championship tour. I feel like they would need to rethink the HCT before any sit infancy changes can be made.
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thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
What threat is that?
MTG purposely times a lot of their pro tour events while the meta is still being figured out. It'd be cool for Hearthstone to do the same.
slightconfuse
Banned
I agree. Something needs to be done because the dump and wait approach isn't working.
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