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Hearthstone |OT8| Elise's Extremely Irresponsible Field Trip To Un'Goro
- Thread starter ZealousD
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thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
It would be funny if it somehow makes charge a problem yet again with a bunch of super cheap 5 attack charge minions.
Quest for Face Rogue
Needs to draw 3 out of 7 cards (6 bounceback + duplicate) to activate quest, or get help from Mimic Pod. I don't know how long that would take on average.
Quest for Face Rogue
Needs to draw 3 out of 7 cards (6 bounceback + duplicate) to activate quest, or get help from Mimic Pod. I don't know how long that would take on average.
I didn't think of moroes, but barnes could be good and perhaps less risk than moroes.
I'm not sold on shadowcaster being really good for the deck.
I think maybe sprint and the mini-thistle tea.
Shadowstepping 5/5 1 mana chargers will be a strong way to get that last bit of reach needed to close out a game. In theory you could play 6 chargers. Stonetusk boars, southsea deckhand, bluegill warrior. Technically you could hit for 30 damage in one turn. I don't think that will be optimal of course. But having a few chargers and shadowsteps you can get a lot of reach.
I disagree about shadowcasters, we'll have to see though.
My problem with Barnes is the number of good hits is really low which makes me feel bad about running barnes.
i think just running the deckhands + patches should be good, you hold one and once the quest is complete you can hold for combo damage with shadowstep etc.
I think the other real alternative is running the water package. which would give you bluegills for combo.
It would be funny if it somehow makes charge a problem yet again with a bunch of super cheap 5 attack charge minions.
Quest for Face Rogue
Needs to draw 3 out of 7 cards (6 bounceback + duplicate) to activate quest, or get help from Mimic Pod. I don't know how long that would take on average.
I think the lack of draw means you're top decking too often after completing the quest.
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thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
I think the lack of draw means you're top decking too often after completing the quest.
Topdecking is part of the makeup of face decks, but there are a lot of cards that would be a bummer to topdeck after the quest that wouldn't be in other face decks.
Would need to be super refined if it's going to work at all.
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thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
If the quest buffs your board, then it actually could work with jades if you only ran a few. Play jade spirit 4 times, for example.
This seems possible too, since it's really not that huge a bummer losing out on 6/6 and above for making your jade summoning minions all 5/5. As long as the quest is consistant with being completed quicker than jades take to snowball.
Maybe better to just go full-on zoo at that point instead though.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Well, at least the rogue quest gave us something to talk about.
I guess rogue will be the joke class from now on.
"If we can't give them good cards, we will give them MEMES!!!"
Literally said every expansion, and wrong every expansion.
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thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
I don't think so. Card says "Play" not "Summon".
Unless you're talking about just after you play the reward, but the hard part is doing the quest and playing the 5 mana reward. Pretty easy to come up with good stuff after that.
Unless you're talking about just after you play the reward, but the hard part is doing the quest and playing the 5 mana reward. Pretty easy to come up with good stuff after that.
I don't think so. Card says "Play" not "Summon".
Unless you're talking about just after you play the reward, but the hard part is doing the quest and playing the 5 mana reward. Pretty easy to come up with good stuff after that.
I was thinking abouth both cases, I forgot play is from your hand :/
Rogue has never been a joke class because it's basic toolset has always been strong enough. But the new archetypes that Blizzard has tried to push for Rogue have fallen flat in the past.
Grinder Deathrattle Rogue w/ Anuburak and Nzoth
Cthun Rogue with that 9 mana Assassinate card
Burgle Rogue
Jade Rogue
Mech Rogue
Stealth Rogue
Pirate Rogue (as in actual Pirate Rogue, not put just the 1 drop Pirates and exploit Patches. A ton of Rogue Pirates don't see play)
Bounce Rogue (to be determined but the have been getting tools for this archetype for some time now)
Rogue is like Hunter where they have basically been playing a similar style since forever. About the biggest shake up Rogue got was with Oil and even then they were still playing a high burst deck. But at least then it was a high burst deck that could also clear the board.
Grinder Deathrattle Rogue w/ Anuburak and Nzoth
Cthun Rogue with that 9 mana Assassinate card
Burgle Rogue
Jade Rogue
Mech Rogue
Stealth Rogue
Pirate Rogue (as in actual Pirate Rogue, not put just the 1 drop Pirates and exploit Patches. A ton of Rogue Pirates don't see play)
Bounce Rogue (to be determined but the have been getting tools for this archetype for some time now)
Rogue is like Hunter where they have basically been playing a similar style since forever. About the biggest shake up Rogue got was with Oil and even then they were still playing a high burst deck. But at least then it was a high burst deck that could also clear the board.
I was talking about the support.Literally said every expansion, and wrong every expansion.
The problem with rogue is that they don't give them good cards, because the basic set is so strong.
Now it looks like they aren't even trying to push a serious archtype with the class.
Frustrating. Was 2-0 in Arena with a fairly good deck with no duplicates and Reno, end up 2-3. Went second all 3 times and even drew Reno all 3 times but my opponents just had answers for everything.
And to top it off, my pack gave me STB, which doesn't grant full dust refunds anymore.
Well, the other guy's bonker deck got wrekt,
It hurts to write it, but I went 4-3 :'(
Turns out most of you were right - I should've probably picked something else over the second, or maybe even the first Ice Block, and definitely Y'Shaarj. First three games went really well - I dropped Ice Block on turn three in all three games and took those three mathces pretty easily, but from there forward it went downhill. In my fourth game I got used to having Ice Block on turn three, so I used my Kazakus and quickly realized my mistake. "It's okay", I thought, "I still have two Ice Blocks and Reno". For the first time I managed to draw Y'Shaarj and even play him. Sadly his first pull was Reno, and he was then Polymorphed and Reno was fireballed. After that, apart from making the same mistake with Solia, I was just really unlucky and didn't draw my Reno or my Ice Blocks.
All in all I enjoyed the run and the salty friend requests after the first few games, but I am sad to have let you down with this seemingly great deck.
Maybe it's not a good idea to draft a Reno deck in arena after all!
Rogue has never been a joke class because it's basic toolset has always been strong enough. But the new archetypes that Blizzard has tried to push for Rogue have fallen flat in the past.
Grinder Deathrattle Rogue w/ Anuburak and Nzoth
Cthun Rogue with that 9 mana Assassinate card
Burgle Rogue
Jade Rogue
Mech Rogue
Stealth Rogue
Pirate Rogue (as in actual Pirate Rogue, not put just the 1 drop Pirates and exploit Patches. A ton of Rogue Pirates don't see play)
Bounce Rogue (to be determined but the have been getting tools for this archetype for some time now)
Rogue is like Hunter where they have basically been playing a similar style since forever. About the biggest shake up Rogue got was with Oil and even then they were still playing a high burst deck. But at least then it was a high burst deck that could also clear the board.
Yeah, they're basically a giant bag of failed ideas that didn't pan out because each time you use some of their new ideas, you end up with a deck that is worse than the same deck they've been playing since beta. I think the grindy deathrattle/cthun thing is a very big point to look at for this quest since it basically shows unless their ungoro cards somehow give them healing or some sort of longer sustain (which blizz has basically said won't happen) they CAN NOT do longer matches, so the 5/5 for the rest of the game needs to be fast which already limits how you would build it.
This most recent meta surprised people since their new cards continued the weird tradition with Jade, which is powerful but not sweeping the game quite like jade druid and shaman because those classes have always been built more for that. They stayed relevant solely carried by their basic set and the fact that they were able to match and keep up with the pirate garbage themselves. Meanwhile hunter couldn't so they got deleted. Basically having the same thing each other expansion show up, their class cards aren't used but a few high impact neutrals are. Water Rogue is similar, a shell they've constantly relied on with powerful neutral synergy outside of it to close games quickly. You aren't seeing Lucky'do Buccanner or that panda stealth 5 drop. Counterfeit Coin is actually solid in the sense that it can actually support their same playstyle or just win a game with the right draw + edwin, but that's pretty much the first time I saw them add a card to actually benefit a miracle style list.
In every list I've seen posted here it just has the same issue. Why go this quest route over miracle, which already does really well in different matchups? It's not totally unable to work out, but you're hurting her openings with the 1 mana card, trying to do everything by still having her spell removal, while also having efficient draw, while also actually having a bounce synergy package, while also planning to skip 5 mana down the line. Someone will either find a balance of a broken charge based listed and break the mechanic as it constantly happens in hearthstone, or it'll get added to a list of failed Rogue ideas as it's too slow and clunky in a class that already has a basic set and a neutral card shell that excels without crippling itself.
SodiumBenzoate
Member
Pro tip: if you've never seen a 20/20+ Jade Golem in-game (especially the golden one, it's neat), this week's tavern brawl is the perfect place to go see it.
Re: rogue. I think everyone simply discounted how much Counterfeit Coin would juice the miracle archetype. (except Blizzard, I guess, that's why all the rest of the Gadgetzan cards were either trash or niche) Any 0-cost spell going to be nuts in that class while Auctioneer still exists, especially one that gives you a mana crystal.
I hope getting rid of conceal is enough, but I doubt it - at least it will delay the combo turn by 1 or 2 turns once the expectation is that the auctioneer will die immediately.
Re: rogue. I think everyone simply discounted how much Counterfeit Coin would juice the miracle archetype. (except Blizzard, I guess, that's why all the rest of the Gadgetzan cards were either trash or niche) Any 0-cost spell going to be nuts in that class while Auctioneer still exists, especially one that gives you a mana crystal.
I hope getting rid of conceal is enough, but I doubt it - at least it will delay the combo turn by 1 or 2 turns once the expectation is that the auctioneer will die immediately.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I didn't and everyone who knows Lotus Petal from MTG wouldn't have.Re: rogue. I think everyone simply discounted how much Counterfeit Coin would juice the miracle archetype. (except Blizzard, I guess, that's why all the rest of the Gadgetzan cards were either trash or niche) Any 0-cost spell going to be nuts in that class while Auctioneer still exists, especially one that gives you a mana crystal.
I hope getting rid of conceal is enough, but I doubt it - at least it will delay the combo turn by 1 or 2 turns once the expectation is that the auctioneer will die immediately.
BananasWithGuns
Member
People really underestimate Lotus Assassin in my opinion. I wouldn't be surprised if we start seeing a lot of that card with Azure Drake going away.
Interesting interview with Lifecoach on why he quit Hearthstone: http://www.pcgamer.com/lifecoach-on..._source=twitter&utm_campaign=buffer-pcgamertw
LaaaaaaameSingle player high score party goer brawl. Easy quest completions.
-what's the brawl?
-"it's webspinners/crossroads/partygoers shit"
-"oh no! It's shit"
Someone make that meme.
Karsticles
Member
Interesting interview with Lifecoach on why he quit Hearthstone: http://www.pcgamer.com/lifecoach-on..._source=twitter&utm_campaign=buffer-pcgamertw
That's crazy. Many posters in this thread told me Hearthstone was a skill-oriented game. :-OAnd at the moment, talking about competitive Hearthstone, the question is always when can you call a game competitive? If you can achieve a 1% edge, then it's kind of coin-flipping. So I think there's no disagreement in that if you have a game, and the best players of the world can only play at 1% better than an average player, then it's a pure gamble and it really has nothing to do with competitiveness at all. And while I'm not saying that Hearthstone is at 1% at the moment, [the percentage] is way too low.
The world's best player can probably have a 5% edge over a good player per game, at the moment, which is ridiculously low. That also reflects the low skill cap. Games are very short, so there are very few opportunities to even display skill, because the first few turns are the most simple. You have no resources on the board whatsoever, you have only a few Mana to interact with, and also not a big combination of cards to pick from. So there are not many places to make mistakes, and the edge vanishes.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
That's crazy. Many posters in this thread told me Hearthstone was a skill-oriented game. :-O
It still is. He is saying that the skill cap has dropped over the past year, not that it is not a skill based game.
Karsticles
Member
Direct quote from Lifecoach:It still is. He is saying that the skill cap has dropped over the past year, not that it is not a skill based game.
Skill doesn't really matter.
That's crazy. Many posters in this thread told me Hearthstone was a skill-oriented game. :-O
Skill? Hearthstone? Who on earth told you that? Blizz made this game as casual + noob friendly as they could without pissing people off too much.
Like most other card games this is a RNG game + sprinklings of skill.
Echoing ooze could have been good to have for the quest. Need card like that to make it work.
I can see people complete the quest consistently with stuff like wisps and similar but just lose right after. The reward is too slow, you basically pass a turn, you're not going to last 3-4 turns after the quest to win the game unless somehow you got 4 chargers to play which you might with bouncing but it's too optimistic to draw like that after spending cards to complete the quest.
deck needs some kind of draw engine, it's very minion heavy, cheap minions at that, your hand will be empty in no time.
With the current card pool, the quest is unplayable. I will wait and see what else they have in this set but the support needs to be tremendous to make this work. We'll see.
I can see people complete the quest consistently with stuff like wisps and similar but just lose right after. The reward is too slow, you basically pass a turn, you're not going to last 3-4 turns after the quest to win the game unless somehow you got 4 chargers to play which you might with bouncing but it's too optimistic to draw like that after spending cards to complete the quest.
deck needs some kind of draw engine, it's very minion heavy, cheap minions at that, your hand will be empty in no time.
With the current card pool, the quest is unplayable. I will wait and see what else they have in this set but the support needs to be tremendous to make this work. We'll see.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Direct quote from Lifecoach:
I know you're not a fan of the game, yet continue to shit talk it whenever possible. But to quote out of context? You know the source is readily available to see, so why even try misleading? Maybe you didn't read or understand what he was saying? He doesn't actually mean there is no skill. He is saying at the top level of play the difference that skill advantages make over other top level players is not high enough. And that makes the grinding portion more important at top legend play.
This is what he said consistently throughout the article. This is a criticism that has existed for a while. Reynad has been one of the foremost voices of this criticism and he was written off as a salty player. Now lifecoach is saying it, granted he is saying it's only more recent that this has been an issue for him. He said a year ago a top player had an advantage of about 70% over the other legend players. That has dropped to a level he is uncomfortable with. He hasn't even quit the game entirely. He is just not laddering and trying to get to blizzcon/championship tournaments.
"Skill doesn't really matter" is hardly misrepresentative of Lifecoach stance since that's literally what he is saying.I know you're not a fan of the game, yet continue to shit talk it whenever possible. But to quote out of context? You know the source is readily available to see, so why even try misleading? Maybe you didn't read or understand what he was saying? He doesn't actually mean there is no skill. He is saying at the top level of play the difference that skill advantages make over other top level players is not high enough. And that makes the grinding portion more important at top legend play.
This is what he said consistently throughout the article. This is a criticism that has existed for a while. Reynad has been one of the foremost voices of this criticism and he was written off as a salty player. Now lifecoach is saying it, granted he is saying it's only more recent that this has been an issue for him. He said a year ago a top player had an advantage of about 70% over the other legend players. That has dropped to a level he is uncomfortable with. He hasn't even quit the game entirely. He is just not laddering and trying to get to blizzcon/championship tournaments.
Pointing out that he says that skill matters a little bit doesn't change that at all.
really regretting not picking fr0zen now, he about to get free win
his first opp bring anti aggro deck, about got rekt by fr0zen total combo lineup
Tournaments need sideboards desperately.
Karsticles
Member
I know you're not a fan of the game, yet continue to shit talk it whenever possible. But to quote out of context? You know the source is readily available to see, so why even try misleading? Maybe you didn't read or understand what he was saying? He doesn't actually mean there is no skill. He is saying at the top level of play the difference that skill advantages make over other top level players is not high enough. And that makes the grinding portion more important at top legend play.
This is what he said consistently throughout the article. This is a criticism that has existed for a while. Reynad has been one of the foremost voices of this criticism and he was written off as a salty player. Now lifecoach is saying it, granted he is saying it's only more recent that this has been an issue for him. He said a year ago a top player had an advantage of about 70% over the other legend players. That has dropped to a level he is uncomfortable with. He hasn't even quit the game entirely. He is just not laddering and trying to get to blizzcon/championship tournaments.
I liked the game a lot more when I first started playing. It's been on a slow trek downhill.
Also, it's really clear that Lifecoach is saying skill is negligible in the game among those who understand it. Sure, if you compare an inexperienced player to an experienced one, the latter has an advantage. But when you pit two experienced players against one another, the game is the primary decider of who wins.
StrifeCro last night said that the skill cap on this meta is the lowest it has ever been.
And then immediately after said that nobody has actually reached the skill cap.
Lifecoach tried to play hearthstone more than anybody should. He got burnt out on it. It happens. Even if he reached the skill cap, (which he almost surely didn't since he likely made mistakes nearly every gave still) it doesn't mean any of us or the people we face on a regular basis are reaching the skill cap.
And then immediately after said that nobody has actually reached the skill cap.
Lifecoach tried to play hearthstone more than anybody should. He got burnt out on it. It happens. Even if he reached the skill cap, (which he almost surely didn't since he likely made mistakes nearly every gave still) it doesn't mean any of us or the people we face on a regular basis are reaching the skill cap.
Just like against lojom, b7 misplayed and still won the 1st match.
It's 1-1 now.
But you can't say that over the long term someone who misplays less won't win more.
Being results oriented isn't useful.
I can teach a kid to play Pirate Warrior in a week, have him go against a pro HS player and the kid might actually win one game out of 10.
That's actually ridiculous when you think about it. Imagine training a kid for a week in a different competitive multiplayer game like say SFV (which some say is the lowest skill cap SF) and have him go against a pro, he would not win a game in 1 in a million matches.
Of course saying the game requires no skill is wrong. A person who is more experienced will have advantage in the long term averaged out. But we are talking about an average of thousands of games, not in a 3/5 where it's difficult to figure out who was the better player let alone one game. There really is not enough room or time in an average game to make critical decisions or out play your opponent.
I honestly think HS is the lowest skill cap video game that I have played from the pool of games that is played for any real amount of money/prestige. This includes other card games too.
Which is fine if one is not playing the game competitively. I would never even think about trying to play HS competitively, I am fine playing it casually.
That's actually ridiculous when you think about it. Imagine training a kid for a week in a different competitive multiplayer game like say SFV (which some say is the lowest skill cap SF) and have him go against a pro, he would not win a game in 1 in a million matches.
Of course saying the game requires no skill is wrong. A person who is more experienced will have advantage in the long term averaged out. But we are talking about an average of thousands of games, not in a 3/5 where it's difficult to figure out who was the better player let alone one game. There really is not enough room or time in an average game to make critical decisions or out play your opponent.
I honestly think HS is the lowest skill cap video game that I have played from the pool of games that is played for any real amount of money/prestige. This includes other card games too.
Which is fine if one is not playing the game competitively. I would never even think about trying to play HS competitively, I am fine playing it casually.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
that's a stupid comparison. Use poker or some shit that's actually comparable.I can teach a kid to play Pirate Warrior in a week, have him go against a pro HS player and the kid might actually win one game out of 10.
That's actually ridiculous when you think about it. Imagine training a kid for a week in a different competitive multiplayer game like say SFV (which some say is the lowest skill cap SF) and have him go against a pro, he would not win a game in 1 in a million matches.
Of course saying the game requires no skill is wrong. A person who is more experienced will have advantage in the long term averaged out. But we are talking about an average of thousands of games, not in a 3/5 where it's difficult to figure out who was the better player let alone one game. There really is not enough room or time in an average game to make critical decisions or out play your opponent.
I honestly think HS is the lowest skill cap video game that I have played from the pool of games that is played for any real amount of money/prestige. This includes other card games too.
He is basically saying what a lot have said for two years now. The game rewards grinding. Quantity of games vastly outweigh quality.
Hearthstone still is a skill based game, just not as much as a lot of other card games.
It's a casual game, which is fine
Yep, I don't know why Lifecoach thought any different. We all knew what this game was when we signed up for it.
Maybe he thought it'd change over time but why would it? It's making bank like this.
Let's say we took out all random aspects and made the game harder to play, most people would just quit playing.
I can teach a kid to play Pirate Warrior in a week, have him go against a pro HS player and the kid might actually win one game out of 10.
That's actually ridiculous when you think about it. Imagine training a kid for a week in a different competitive multiplayer game like say SFV (which some say is the lowest skill cap SF) and have him go against a pro, he would not win a game in 1 in a million matches.
Of course saying the game requires no skill is wrong. A person who is more experienced will have advantage in the long term averaged out. But we are talking about an average of thousands of games, not in a 3/5 where it's difficult to figure out who was the better player let alone one game. There really is not enough room or time in an average game to make critical decisions or out play your opponent.
I honestly think HS is the lowest skill cap video game that I have played from the pool of games that is played for any real amount of money/prestige. This includes other card games too.
Which is fine if one is not playing the game competitively. I would never even think about trying to play HS competitively, I am fine playing it casually.
Imagine training a kid in poker for a week. Better comparison.
Ok I can pick Duelyst, teach a kid how to play some deck in that game for a week and he wouldn't win one in a thousand games against a pro.that's a stupid comparison. Use poker or some shit that's actually comparable.
And that game is a HS clone.
As far as poker goes, I think even 1 on 1 a kid playing poker will still lose out to a pro almost every time or at least way more than HS. At least you can make good reads on the opponent in that game and even though the kid will win some hands, in the end result he will lose out almost every time if the pot is substantial.
Of coursw a kid can easily win a hand of poker in a single bet but that's not how competitive poker is played. It's played over long, grueling periods of times with lots of decisions to be made over the course of the game. And once someone has a read on you, that's it for you.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
A pro will not get good reads from a kid in poker and isn't duelyst also a round based strategy game in addition to cards?Ok I can pick Duelyst, teach a kid how to play some deck in that game for a week and he wouldn't win one in a thousand games against a pro.
And that game is a HS clone.
As far as poker goes, I think even 1 on 1 a kid playing poker will still lose out to a pro almost every time or at least way more than HS. At least you can make good reads on the opponent in that game and even though the kid will win some hands, in the end result he will lose out almost every time.
Duelyst is just HS with a grid system for playing and moving minions on.A pro will not get good reads from a kid in poker and isn't duelyst also a round based strategy game in addition to cards?
I think I can teach a kid to play YGO with a meta deck snd he might actually win a game against a pro in reasonable time. You can easily nuts/brick draw in that game which can decide the outcome. Still higher skill cap than HS but you can win in that game with a lower skill set. Which is too bad because fundamentally YGO is much higher skill cap than HS but with the way games play out in that game these days there is very little room for out playing your opponent.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
that's already much more complex though, your conclusion would naturally follow.Duelyst is just HS with a grid system for playing and moving minions on.
MonorailCat
Member
If only there was the technology to resume matches.
I really hope manking advances enough to create such technology in the near future.
I really hope manking advances enough to create such technology in the near future.
SodiumBenzoate
Member
Can this team not prevent their shit game client from crashing in their own World Championship? How pathetic is that.
Frodan looking as glamorous as ever, glorious.
Frodan looking as glamorous as ever, glorious.
Ok I can pick Duelyst, teach a kid how to play some deck in that game for a week and he wouldn't win one in a thousand games against a pro.
And that game is a HS clone.
As far as poker goes, I think even 1 on 1 a kid playing poker will still lose out to a pro almost every time or at least way more than HS. At least you can make good reads on the opponent in that game and even though the kid will win some hands, in the end result he will lose out almost every time if the pot is substantial.
Of coursw a kid can easily win a hand of poker in a single bet but that's not how competitive poker is played. It's played over long, grueling periods of times with lots of decisions to be made over the course of the game. And once someone has a read on you, that's it for you.
You can teach an all in strategy to a kid that would beat a pro heads up in nlhe 100bb to bust at least 10% of the time. Probably more like 30% of the time. He would obviously still be a massive loser over time because that edge is still huge.
And hearthstone isn't just about one game or one series or one tournament. No game with luck involved is.
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