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"I need a New PC!" 2013 Part 1. Haswell, Crysis 3, and secret fairy sauce. Read da OP

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kennah

Member
Oh, I just figured since it is a higher number that it was an actual hardware upgrade. My apologies.
First number is the generation. 2xx, 4xx, 5xx, 6xx, 7xx and so on.

Look at the second number to know where in a series it resides.

x10 (eg 210, 610) - business cards, not good for gaming at all.
x50 (eg 650) - starting to get ok for 3d rendering. Not the best for games, but ok for cad and video.
x60 - (660, 660ti, 560ti) minimum you'd want for gaming.
x70 - (470, 570, 670, 770) sweet spot for gaming price to performance
x80 - (280, 480, 680, 780) high end
x90 - (690) usually dual gpu, or super high end.

Titan is kind of an exception.

Generally the card will equal the one below it in the next series. 570 is about the same as a 660, 670 is about the same as the 760, 770 is about the same as 680. And so on.
 
Does that mean the PSU and/or motherboard are faulty? Both of my cards are dead so it would have to be one of the two or both.
Do you have a multi-GPU setup? If so, then then the short circuit of one GPU could've hit the other since they're bridged. It's also possible that the Power Supply is responsible, but I don't have a lot to go on with what you've told me.

How's the rest of your PC? Does it run normally without the cards connected?
 
Do you have a multi-GPU setup? If so, then then the short circuit of one GPU could've hit the other since they're bridged. It's also possible that the Power Supply is responsible, but I don't have a lot to go on with what you've told me.

How's the rest of your PC? Does it run normally without the cards connected?
Yeah it was running two 6950s. I posted earlier about replacing those because I thought it was just the cards that were faulty. The PC booted to Windows with them plugged in, but no picture. I should mention that apart from the sparking, the cards did feel like they had charge running through them, even if the power was off, unplugged and discharged, but this was only a recent thing.

I've plugged in other cards (8800GT, 4870 and my roommate's 7970 GHz) and they were working (no onboard graphics).
 
Yeah it was running two 6950s. I posted earlier about replacing those because I thought it was just the cards that were faulty. The PC booted to Windows with them plugged in, but no picture.

I've plugged in other cards (8800GT, 4870 and my roommate's 7970 GHz) and they were working (no onboard graphics).

Sounds like a short circuit in the HDMI connector on the card you tried to plug in. If the rest of your PC is working normally, then you should be in the clear outside of that. It's possible the HMDI cable you used cause the short circuit, but unlikely. Those are cheap and it's been through a short circuit event anyway so you might want to replace it.
 
If I want to use a New SSD for Windows and games with my old HDD, is it possible to remove just windows off the HDD while booting from the SSD? It can't be as easy as just deleting the windows folder can it?
You could always just shuffle the game files to an external storage/second partition, format the old HDD, then re-introduce the game files.
 

scogoth

Member
Alrighty, so I've been tinkering in paint....

8752875732_858c7cb331_c.jpg


Thoughts on this loop?

Blue boxes = radiator (360mm on top, 240mm on front)
Blue lines = tubing
White = fans
Aqua blue = pump/reservoir

It's a little messy; but I think if I could get good cuts and perfect lengths with the tubing, it could look really good.

I don't think I'm gonna use the top hard drive cage - as the bottom will hold my two SSDs and any hard drives I decide to add.

So I'll set the pump/res on top the bottom cage. Then, the case comes with a metal "shroud" that will completely hide the cage, pump, and front radiator - so you can imagine any of that being not-visible.

I'm thinking...

PUMP/RES -> 240mm front rad -> CPU -> 360mm top rad -> (gravity starts kicking in) -> GPU(s) -> PUMP/RES

Thoughts?

Also - I want to have fans on the interior of the case. All my reading suggests there is little difference between a push or pull; for aesthetics, I want white fans that are visible. Furthermore, that last stand-alone fan.... in an air rig, I'd have that as an exhaust... always. But should it be an intake in this case?

Can you not fit a 480mm rad on top? I find a 360mm and 240mm with 2 GPUs and CPU are start pushing the thermal dissapation limits without cranking the fans up.
 

teh_pwn

"Saturated fat causes heart disease as much as Brawndo is what plants crave."
Oh, I just figured since it is a higher number that it was an actual hardware upgrade. My apologies.

You know, they might not as much as they should. Because lack of competition. A GPU like a 770 should be $200, but AMD doesn't have anything to offer and we're still getting late 2011 designs for these things.

"But a 770 is so fast"

*some multi-year picture of GPU performance flattening out over the last few years*

Hopefully GDDR5 gets cheap due to Sony and we'll see price drops next year.
 

clip

Member
I'm feeling like it's time to upgrade my 5 year old video card. Currently have a GTX260, my other systems components are decent enough. Are there any deals going on?
 

teh_pwn

"Saturated fat causes heart disease as much as Brawndo is what plants crave."
I'm feeling like it's time to upgrade my 5 year old video card. Currently have a GTX260, my other systems components are decent enough. Are there any deals going on?

I'd wait a month. New Nvidia GPUs coming out in like 1 week. In 1 month you should have decent availability or at least marked down AMD 7970 1 GHz.

But then again, are you sure? What's your CPU? You could have PCIe bus issues, frame latency due to weak CPU. CPUs got way faster in 2011 if you OC.
 

clip

Member
I'd wait a month. New Nvidia GPUs coming out in like 1 week. In 1 month you should have decent availability or at least marked down AMD 7970 1 GHz.

But then again, are you sure? What's your CPU? You could have PCIe bus issues, frame latency due to weak CPU. CPUs got way faster in 2011 if you OC.

It's an i7 @ 3.3ghz.
 
I've had my PC for over a month now and until about a week ago my GPU would idle at about 28 degrees, however I have noticed that it's now idling at roughly ten degrees higher, even after a cold boot.

Is this normal? The weather has got slightly warmer but not enough to cause a rise in temperature of ten degrees and the CPU is still idling at the same temperature as when I first got it..

For reference the GPU is a 4GB EVGA GTX 680 Classified.
 

decon

Member
So I'm thinking about upgrading my HDD to a new SSD, and maybe also the motherboard. Djing, producing music, photoshop, general usage, academic work (text editing, etc.) and programming are the main uses.

My system is a Dell Studio XPS (http://reviews.cnet.com/desktops/dell-studio-xps/4505-3118_7-33396858.html) with these specs:
CPU: Intel Core i7 920 2.67Ghz (bloomfield), LGA1366 Socket
Motherboard: Dell Inc., 0R849J A03 with a intel x58 chipset
RAM: 8192MB DDR3, Triple Channel (531mhz, 2:8, 7.0,7,7,20,59,2T)
GPU: Nvidia GeForce GTX 260
Case: crappy small dell case, I might get a new if I can find a cheap one :)
PSU: Corsair HX520W
HDD: 2x Samsung HD103UJ (Windows is installed on one of these), 1x Western Digital 1,5TB (from ex. hdd where the USB plug broke)

Budget: around 850USD, I live in Denmark so parts are about 25% more expensive. UK prices are more like prices here in DK.
Overclocking: yes please

I want to upgrade as soon as possible. As I've already mentioned, my main concern is the HDD slowing down the system. I need min. 250GB of storage, and use the other hard drives to store all of my 2TBish of music and video files. Are there other parts that I should think about upgrading, like the motherboard, CPU or RAM? I would very much like to overclock, but I'm not sure if the motherboard is right for it... I would rather wait for the new Intel CPUs to come out in June, and then first upgrade the SSD, and maybe the CPU and motherboard if there's any real performance to be found.
 
It's an Intel Core i7 860 Lynnfield, Socket 1156 LGA.

To your original question, I agree with teh_pwn that you should wait about a month for the new 770 and 780's to come out, but then again we would need to know your budget to recommend a gpu as well. There's not that many gpu deals that often. You might see someone offering a manufacturer's rebate or offer a bundle of games like AMD does right now.
 
I've had my PC for over a month now and until about a week ago my GPU would idle at about 28 degrees, however I have noticed that it's now idling at roughly ten degrees higher, even after a cold boot.

Is this normal? The weather has got slightly warmer but not enough to cause a rise in temperature of ten degrees and the CPU is still idling at the same temperature as when I first got it..

For reference the GPU is a 4GB EVGA GTX 680 Classified.

Have you checked the inside of your computer for dust? Depending on if you have a dusty house or have cats and dogs, that can have an effect on your computer temperatures. Maybe combine warmer weather with dust and cat/dog hair and that could be it. Also, is your gpu fan seem to be running as normal? No funny noises or anything?
 

clip

Member
To your original question, I agree with teh_pwn that you should wait about a month for the new 770 and 780's to come out, but then again we would need to know your budget to recommend a gpu as well. There's not that many gpu deals that often. You might see someone offering a manufacturer's rebate or offer a bundle of games like AMD does right now.

I'll wait a bit then, thanks.
 
Current specs: N/A
Budget: As close to $1,200 as possible
Main use: This will primarily be a gaming PC, including emulation (especially PS2). General usage is important as well.
Monitor resolution: Single monitor set up and 1080p for the foreseeable future.
Specifics: The higher the FPS, the better. No specific games in mind.
Looking to reuse any parts: No.
When will you build: In the next 1-2 months
Will you be overclocking: Maybe (so yes), but it will be much later on

Here is what I have so far. Any advice is much appreciated.

CPU: i5 4670k
Motherboard: I originally had the ASUS P8Z77 V-LK ($130) picked out when I was considering going for the i5 3570k, so something similar to that but for Haswell will work.
RAM: G.Skill F3-12800CL9D-8GBRL (2 x 4 GB) $70
Graphics: NVIDIA 700 series: 760 Ti (or 770 if I decide to spend more money)
Storage: Samsung 840 Pro SSD 128 GB $150
Power Supply: Seasonic M12 II 650 $100 (or the cheaper 620 if it is fully compatible with Haswell)
Case: Fractal Design Define R4 $100
Optical Drive: ASUS DRW-24B1ST $20
OS: Windows 7 or 8 (leaning towards Windows 8) $100
Heatsink: N/A (for now)
Sound Card: N/A

Basically, I have $400 set aside for Haswell (CPU and motherboard) and $300 set aside for a graphics card. That leaves $500 for everything else.
 
Have you checked the inside of your computer for dust? Depending on if you have a dusty house or have cats and dogs, that can have an effect on your computer temperatures. Maybe combine warmer weather with dust and cat/dog hair and that could be it. Also, is your gpu fan seem to be running as normal? No funny noises or anything?

Now that you mention it I thought the other week that the fan noise sounded different, I'll open the case and have a look. I live in a pet free home apart from a hamster that lives the other side of the room.

Right, I've opened it up. It looks absolutely pristine in there.

I let Precision X control the fan speed since day one and nothing has changed within Precision X, under load my GPU just nudges 50-55 degrees so I might be worrying other nothing but still, a ten degree rise in temperature must be caused by something.
 

kharma45

Member
Current specs: N/A
Budget: As close to $1,200 as possible
Main use: This will primarily be a gaming PC, including emulation (especially PS2). General usage is important as well.
Monitor resolution: Single monitor set up and 1080p for the foreseeable future.
Specifics: The higher the FPS, the better. No specific games in mind.
Looking to reuse any parts: No.
When will you build: In the next 1-2 months
Will you be overclocking: Maybe (so yes), but it will be much later on

Here is what I have so far. Any advice is much appreciated.

CPU: i5 4670k
Motherboard: I originally had the ASUS P8Z77 V-LK ($130) picked out when I was considering going for the i5 3570k, so something similar to that but for Haswell will work.
RAM: G.Skill F3-12800CL9D-8GBRL (2 x 4 GB) $70
Graphics: NVIDIA 700 series: 760 Ti (or 770 if I decide to spend more money)
Storage: Samsung 840 Pro SSD 128 GB $150
Power Supply: Seasonic M12 II 650 $100 (or the cheaper 620 if it is fully compatible with Haswell)
Case: Fractal Design Define R4 $100
Optical Drive: ASUS DRW-24B1ST $20
OS: Windows 7 or 8 (leaning towards Windows 8) $100
Heatsink: N/A
Sound Card: N/A

Basically, I have $400 set aside for Haswell (CPU and motherboard) and $300 set aside for a graphics card. That leaves $500 for everything else.

Change the PSU to this for $80 http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00918MEZG/?tag=neogaf0e-20

I'd then use that money saved to go for a 250GB 840. Not going for a cooler to OC?
 

chuckddd

Fear of a GAF Planet
jbaAK4XSXyaVx2.jpg


That case is great to work with. Plenty of room, no hardware needed for drives and a neat cover for your ps cables.

Pro-tip: Don't have your input devices plugged into usb 3.0 ports when installing Win7.
 
Change the PSU to this for $80 http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00918MEZG/?tag=neogaf0e-20

I'd then use that money saved to go for a 250GB 840. Not going for a cooler to OC?

Thanks.

I'll get a cooler when I decide to OC. I have no idea when that will be, so I'm not going to worry about it right now.

Oh yeah, the G series. I looked into those as well. Looks good. My prices are from NCIX US, where the G 550 is $100, but I could probably get them to price match Amazon. I think I'll stick with the smaller SSD for now, though. I'll add more storage later as I need it. Right now I mostly just need it to store the OS and a handful of games.

How much space does Windows 8 take up, anyway?
 
jbaAK4XSXyaVx2.jpg


That case is great to work with. Plenty of room, no hardware needed for drives and a neat cover for your ps cables.

Pro-tip: Don't have your input devices plugged into usb 3.0 ports when installing Win7.

Grats on your new computer. Windows 7 didn't come with native usb 3 support, I believe 8 does.
 

Mad Max

Member
Alrighty, so I've been tinkering in paint....

8752875732_858c7cb331_c.jpg


Thoughts on this loop?

Blue boxes = radiator (360mm on top, 240mm on front)
Blue lines = tubing
White = fans
Aqua blue = pump/reservoir

It's a little messy; but I think if I could get good cuts and perfect lengths with the tubing, it could look really good.

I don't think I'm gonna use the top hard drive cage - as the bottom will hold my two SSDs and any hard drives I decide to add.

So I'll set the pump/res on top the bottom cage. Then, the case comes with a metal "shroud" that will completely hide the cage, pump, and front radiator - so you can imagine any of that being not-visible.

I'm thinking...

PUMP/RES -> 240mm front rad -> CPU -> 360mm top rad -> (gravity starts kicking in) -> GPU(s) -> PUMP/RES

Thoughts?

Also - I want to have fans on the interior of the case. All my reading suggests there is little difference between a push or pull; for aesthetics, I want white fans that are visible. Furthermore, that last stand-alone fan.... in an air rig, I'd have that as an exhaust... always. But should it be an intake in this case?

I've got a CPU + GPU loop and a 360 rad in my arc midi r2 and imo you're better of putting things in a different order. I'd advise something like this myself: Pump+Res-> GPUblocks->CPU->360->240->pump+res. This setup will look a bit cleaner and temp wise it won't matter much, because the heat capacity of water and flow rate will make the water temperature difference between gpu and cpu negligible once the system is in thermal equilibrium.
 

kharma45

Member
Thanks.

I'll get a cooler when I decide to OC. I have no idea when that will be, so I'm not going to worry about it right now.

Oh yeah, the G series. I looked into those as well. Looks good. My prices are from NCIX US, where the G 550 is $100, but I could probably get them to price match Amazon. I think I'll stick with the smaller SSD for now, though. I'll add more storage later as I need it. Right now I mostly just need it to store the OS and a handful of games.

How much space does Windows 8 take up, anyway?

8 takes up around 20GB or so. Definitely try to get them to price match, G Series is a much better PSU. Look into OCing from the off, there is good performance to be gained.
 

Skel1ingt0n

I can't *believe* these lazy developers keep making file sizes so damn large. Btw, how does technology work?
Can you not fit a 480mm rad on top? I find a 360mm and 240mm with 2 GPUs and CPU are start pushing the thermal dissapation limits without cranking the fans up.

From everything I'm reading online, it sounds like a good rule of thumb is to have 120mm for each waterblock, and 120mm as headroom. That puts me 120mm ahead. Furthermore, the radiators I've been looking at seem to be a couple of the top tier units - a little thicker, a bit nicer. Unfortunately, no, I can only fit the 360 & 240 now. It seems LittleDevil is working on a 480 kit for the top (and maybe even the front), but I haven't seen anything posted in the last several months. Thanks for the heads up!


I've got a CPU + GPU loop and a 360 rad in my arc midi r2 and imo you're better of putting things in a different order. I'd advise something like this myself: Pump+Res-> GPUblocks->CPU->360->240->pump+res. This setup will look a bit cleaner and temp wise it won't matter much, because the heat capacity of water and flow rate will make the water temperature difference between gpu and cpu negligible once the system is in thermal equilibrium.

Yeah, I had read that the order doesn't really matter. Maybe +/- 1-2 degrees. Not much to worry about. But honestly, I had actually thought my pic was the cleaner setup. Now I'm debating - I think it'll depend on the exact measurements.

Hmmm...

Hmm.... maybe I should look into bending and crimping my own pipes....
 

scogoth

Member
From everything I'm reading online, it sounds like a good rule of thumb is to have 120mm for each waterblock, and 120mm as headroom. That puts me 120mm ahead. Furthermore, the radiators I've been looking at seem to be a couple of the top tier units - a little thicker, a bit nicer. Unfortunately, no, I can only fit the 360 & 240 now. It seems LittleDevil is working on a 480 kit for the top (and maybe even the front), but I haven't seen anything posted in the last several months. Thanks for the heads up!
.
You should be fine, I have a very similar setup and have some very thick rads too but I like to run my fans at <1000RPM. If I try and run my 680s at 1.3Ghz then they just produce too much heat and I have to run the fans on full. That extra 120mm would just be icing on the cake
 

Skel1ingt0n

I can't *believe* these lazy developers keep making file sizes so damn large. Btw, how does technology work?
You should be fine, I have a very similar setup and have some very thick rads too but I like to run my fans at <1000RPM. If I try and run my 680s at 1.3Ghz then they just produce too much heat and I have to run the fans on full. That extra 120mm would just be icing on the cake

Ah, gotchya! Thank you. Right now I have some of the worst cooling of all time and run my system fans at 100% and my GPU fans at 70% when gaming - so it'll be a nice reduction in decibels for me. That said, I get what you're saying and I really do appreciate the heads up!
 

Mad Max

Member
Yeah, I had read that the order doesn't really matter. Maybe +/- 1-2 degrees. Not much to worry about. But honestly, I had actually thought my pic was the cleaner setup. Now I'm debating - I think it'll depend on the exact measurements.

Hmmm...

Hmm.... maybe I should look into bending and crimping my own pipes....

Yeah I can see what you mean I think. Although you could flip the 360 around so the in/outlets are at the front of the case, then it will be much closer to the 240 in the front. I did this myself in preperation for when I add a 240 rad in the front in the future (I'm still missing a few angle adaptors as you can see):


But then again maybe you should just experiment a bit to see what looks best when you have the parts, you can always order the angle adaptors and tubing later if needed.

You could also look into acrylic pipe-bending if you really want a clean result, see for example: http://www.overclock.net/t/1388300/acrylic-pipebending-101. As bending acryllic seems much easier than bending actual copper pipes.
 

daripad

Member
Yeah, I'm here asking again but this time it will be with way less budget as I seem to be buying other things too, also I won't save much because I need this desktop before next semester and I have to buy books, ect. Also, I want this to be cool all the time, I hate overheating in these things.

Your Current Specs: N/A
Budget: $US 1200. MXN$15,000
Main Use: Gaming, Emulation (PS2/Wii), Blu-Ray player, Homework (Office programs, etc), Multitasking a lot
Monitor Resolution: 1080p
List SPECIFIC games or applications that you MUST be able to run well: 30 fps for big games like crysis 3 and battlefield 3. Next generation if possible too. I'm comfortable with medium or high settings if possible, but low isn't that much bad.
When will you build?: Before early August
Will you be overclocking?: Maybe

Thanks in anticipation
 

Carlisle

Member
What's the best smaller alternative to the Hyper 212s? I only need to cool C2D E8500 3.16 GHz... possibly with an overclock to ~4 Ghz. It's in a Dell Inspiron 530 case, which gives me about 5.75" of clearance from the mobo to the edge of the case. The 212s are asking for 6.3". I suppose I could leave the side panel off, but eh...

The TX3 would fit nicely, but I did a search in this thread and it's been pretty universally panned.
 

kharma45

Member
What's the best smaller alternative to the Hyper 212s? I only need to cool C2D E8500 3.16 GHz... possibly with an overclock to ~4 Ghz. It's in a Dell Inspiron 530 case, which gives me about 5.75" of clearance from the mobo to the edge of the case. The 212s are asking for 6.3". I suppose I could leave the side panel off, but eh...

The TX3 would fit nicely, but I did a search in this thread and it's been pretty universally panned.

Seems to be a pretty comprehensive list of low profile stuff here

http://www.frostytech.com/top5_lowprofile_heatsinks.cfm
 

Horse Detective

Why the long case?
For some reason I can only find 16gb Corsair ram on Amazon...What am I doing wrong? Should I just order that? Will it affect the size of power supply I need?
 

Horse Detective

Why the long case?
Na as long as you don't go for 1.65 stuff you're fine. Are you looking for any specific type/size?

Mkenyon made a build for Mr. Pockets that was exactly what I am looking for. The build guide just says Corsair 2x4GB DDR3 1600, 1.35v, but I can't seem to find that option on Amazon. I think I found it

I also just want to know what size power supply he used.
 

kharma45

Member
Mkenyon made a build for Mr. Pockets that was exactly what I am looking for. The build guide just says Corsair 2x4GB DDR3 1600, 1.35v, but I can't seem to find that option on Amazon.

I also just want to know what size power supply he used.

The RAM will have a negligible affect on the power consumption. For the price this stuff is a good buy http://www.amazon.com/dp/B007TTEHMW/?tag=neogaf0e-20

You can also get 1333 stuff for a bit less http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...-na-_-na&cm_sp=&AID=10446076&PID=3938566&SID=

You won't go much cheaper or lower profile. If mkenyon has any other suggestions he'll hopefully be able to chime in.
 

friday

Member
Piledriver is fairly good to be fair.

I still wonder if it warrants an upgrade. If games embraced 64 bit that would help its cause.

Edit: just doing a little research, the 8350 and 8320 seem like good upgrades for me. I already have a compatible motherboard so I could just drop one in.
 

Skel1ingt0n

I can't *believe* these lazy developers keep making file sizes so damn large. Btw, how does technology work?
Yeah I can see what you mean I think. Although you could flip the 360 around so the in/outlets are at the front of the case, then it will be much closer to the 240 in the front. I did this myself in preperation for when I add a 240 rad in the front in the future (I'm still missing a few angle adaptors as you can see):



But then again maybe you should just experiment a bit to see what looks best when you have the parts, you can always order the angle adaptors and tubing later if needed.

You could also look into acrylic pipe-bending if you really want a clean result, see for example: http://www.overclock.net/t/1388300/acrylic-pipebending-101. As bending acryllic seems much easier than bending actual copper pipes.

Thanks for the tips; I appreciate it. Not quite sure what to do, yet. Hard Acrylic piping looks nice - but I don't know if I trust myself enough - seems they hold on with pressure rather than compression. I don't know... seems like an even bigger step for a first-timer. Sure would look nice, though.

***

Think I'm gonna get some matte-black vinyl. I need to cover three SSDs in black, and my SATA Blu-Ray drive (it's beige on the inside. Thinking of doing this:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00598U2EM/?tag=neogaf0e-20

Other than quantity...thoughts?
 

Horse Detective

Why the long case?
Ordered the Define R4, SSD, Windows 8, Ram, and a Blu Ray optical drive.

I am excited, but not for what it will be like to wire all of this together...
 

Skel1ingt0n

I can't *believe* these lazy developers keep making file sizes so damn large. Btw, how does technology work?
Ordered the Define R4, SSD, Windows 8, Ram, and a Blu Ray optical drive.

I am excited, but not for what it will be like to wire all of this together...

Congrats!!

I'm looking forward to the wiring; I just dread the disappointment when I don't do as good of a job as what I have in my head :-(
 

scogoth

Member
Thanks for the tips; I appreciate it. Not quite sure what to do, yet. Hard Acrylic piping looks nice - but I don't know if I trust myself enough - seems they hold on with pressure rather than compression. I don't know... seems like an even bigger step for a first-timer. Sure would look nice, though.

***

Think I'm gonna get some matte-black vinyl. I need to cover three SSDs in black, and my SATA Blu-Ray drive (it's beige on the inside. Thinking of doing this:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00598U2EM/?tag=neogaf0e-20

Other than quantity...thoughts?

That vinyl is similar to the carbon fiber dinoc line, both are from 3M's architectural finish division, and are fantastic for computer work.
 
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