Is there a market for a truly high-end console?
- Thread starter NomenNescio
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brenobnfm
Member
People keep repeating this Steam Big Picture bullshit like external launchers, old games without controller support and a lot of other PC nonsense don't exist.
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Rat Rage
Member
No, because higher power capabilities only produce shit games. Game developers are not longer restriced by "weak" hardware when it comes to their artistic visions (which hasn't been a factor for a long time anyway) - it's actually the other way around: high end graphical capabilities have been a major hindrance for game developers and their artistic freedom for quite some time, because making full use of all the billions of polygons literally forces them to produce ultra realistic visuals and restricts them in a big way. Publisher force developers to produce movie-like visiuals, which are too fucking expensive, too time consuming and worst of all, limit your gameplay choices, because otherwise they won't fund your project, and that's why every AAA game is either a 3rd person action game, 1st peron shooter or a cover shooter, uses Unral Engine 5, looks and sounds the same.
So absolutely no. Visuals and budgets have already hit a hard diminishing returns limit. If anything, what the market needs is a WEAKER new console - one that is deliberately forcing developers to spend LESS and give them limitations, so that they can be creative again (by trying to circumvent these restriction - maybe even with producing their own game engines again), in order to diversify the market and making games interesting again.
Such a weaker hardware could have the huge advantage of a very cheap price. It then would only be a matter of convincing gamers to buy that hardware, but that could be achieved with a very cheap price (still profitable, but very cheap compared to the big 3 platform holders) and through exclusives.
Such an efford would also need the help of certain publishers and developers. They should try a risk and dedicate a certain amount of money and development power to such a hypothetical new "low power" console, in order for the chance of it attracting a large install base. If such an idea would be successful, publishers, developers and gamers could profit massively from it.
So absolutely no. Visuals and budgets have already hit a hard diminishing returns limit. If anything, what the market needs is a WEAKER new console - one that is deliberately forcing developers to spend LESS and give them limitations, so that they can be creative again (by trying to circumvent these restriction - maybe even with producing their own game engines again), in order to diversify the market and making games interesting again.
Such a weaker hardware could have the huge advantage of a very cheap price. It then would only be a matter of convincing gamers to buy that hardware, but that could be achieved with a very cheap price (still profitable, but very cheap compared to the big 3 platform holders) and through exclusives.
Such an efford would also need the help of certain publishers and developers. They should try a risk and dedicate a certain amount of money and development power to such a hypothetical new "low power" console, in order for the chance of it attracting a large install base. If such an idea would be successful, publishers, developers and gamers could profit massively from it.
simpatico
Member
So old game without controller support< no old game support at all?
As a guy who mainly plays older console-style games on PC, I can barely think of any without controller support. Any specifics in mind?
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
brenobnfm
Member
What i mean is that Steam Big Picture isn't anywhere close to the console experience, it's a compromise and you'll still need to deal with M/K on the couch, which is an awful experience. Yeah there are many, on my Series X i can play Ubisoft games, EA games, Rockstar games, Max Payne 1 and 2, Kotor 1 and 2, Morrowind and a lot of other old shit with perfect controller support on a modern interface.
R6Rider
Gold Member
you're late lol
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
But beautifully present
Crayon
Member
Yes but generations needs to fade away. Which sucks. It's already happening with extended cross gen.
Everyone on her wetting their diapers over the cross gen period was sure as hell not selling their ps5's to go back to 1080/30 on their ps4's.
A $700 console has been successfully introduced. GPUs are selling at $1000+ to complete systems that cost another $1000+.
Yes, I think the market can continue shifting towards supporting models more expensive than the $700. Wanting to spend more for more performance is strongly associated with pc gaming but it could go for console gaming, too.
Everyone on her wetting their diapers over the cross gen period was sure as hell not selling their ps5's to go back to 1080/30 on their ps4's.
A $700 console has been successfully introduced. GPUs are selling at $1000+ to complete systems that cost another $1000+.
Yes, I think the market can continue shifting towards supporting models more expensive than the $700. Wanting to spend more for more performance is strongly associated with pc gaming but it could go for console gaming, too.
cartman414
Member
The latter was never able to achieve die shrinks and therefore had no chance of reducing costs.
Starbuck2907
Member
Absolutely.
The next Xbox will probably be an expensive pc with Xbox branding and plug and play ability similar to a console. I suspect there will only be a high end version or a low end, but easily upgraded version.
yet_another_alt
Member
Those are known as Apple users. Their macbooks have no games so they have to use their iphones to play.For some normal people it's stupid to mix gaming device and typing machine!
coffinbirth
Member
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
Everyone was making the same mistake in the past with phones and PCs until Apple came along and started making huge profits on both hardware and software.
Im sure Sony are wondering 'what's the worst that could happen if we dont subsidize', and MS are thinking 'we subsidized like crazy and the worst still happened.
We are already seeing moves by both signaling the days of subsidized hardware may be over.
Mr.Phoenix
Member
The mistake here is wanting something to be something it's not designed to be.
A console is a mass-market gaming device. Designed to sell 10s to 100s of millions of units.
That $1000+ GPU you speak of, makes up under 5% of the total 35M(ish) discrete GPU sales in 2024, as an example. Even in the PC space, there is an overwhelming majority of gamers who buy significantly cheaper hardware. Don't let GAF and/or the tech media fool you.
The best thing to do is look at what a console is trying to do. They will try to make a machine that can run games at 30- 60fps as efficiently as possible. That's it.
An argument can be made that they could make a $500 console and also make a $1000 version of that console. But that's another matter.
We are in the minority... the majority of gamers, do not care about any of the shit we talk about... much less even want them.
A console is a mass-market gaming device. Designed to sell 10s to 100s of millions of units.
That $1000+ GPU you speak of, makes up under 5% of the total 35M(ish) discrete GPU sales in 2024, as an example. Even in the PC space, there is an overwhelming majority of gamers who buy significantly cheaper hardware. Don't let GAF and/or the tech media fool you.
The best thing to do is look at what a console is trying to do. They will try to make a machine that can run games at 30- 60fps as efficiently as possible. That's it.
An argument can be made that they could make a $500 console and also make a $1000 version of that console. But that's another matter.
We are in the minority... the majority of gamers, do not care about any of the shit we talk about... much less even want them.
existensmaximum
Member
Wait, what? Uncensor porn..?
Is that a thing? Is there even that much censored porn out there to uncensor?
bender
What time is it?
I do think Xbox is going to bow out sooner rather than later, but I don't think Sony is there yet or even close really. It's still worth taking a small bath on hardware when you are getting a 30% cut on your store and have a lucrative subscription model. PS6 will probably be at least $600, but everything is more expensive now.
Musashipan
Member
PC
Laughing at people saying ps5 lol
Laughing at people saying ps5 lol
This problem won't exist if the PRO version is launched together with the base version.
Sony has an opportunity with PS6 to do just that.
Base version - 3nm 200 watts
Pro version - 2nm 300 watts
GoldenEye98
posts news as their odd job
I've said it before but I think there is a market for a high end console but it would have based on how phones are financed but perhaps a longer cycle.
Xbox essentially already has this with All Access.... but with a 4 year plan instead of 2 you could offer a $1000 console.
Xbox essentially already has this with All Access.... but with a 4 year plan instead of 2 you could offer a $1000 console.
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KungFucius
King Snowflake
When I see people conflate things like 1000 dollar phones that you use many hours per day for a few years with consoles that have always been cheap, mass market devices that they only use to play games advocating for a closed architecture PC from Sony when PCs actually exist, I just can't. Build a nice rig and use that. Sure it will cost more than 2k but you can upgrade it later if you chose the right setup. AM5 will likely last another CPU gen or 2 and you can replace your 5090 with a 7090 in 4 years or trade up every 2 years.
Go get some numbers for the ratio of PS4 pro to PS4 and again PS5 Pro to PS5 and ask again why Sony is not making a PS5 Pro CEO version for 2x the cost.
Also you can buy a phone <6 months after release at a steep discount if it is not made by Apple. I got my Pixel 9 a few months ago for < 600 when it launched at 900.
HeisenbergFX4
Member
People also cried about GPU prices, but we paid it
GymWolf
Member
Console players are just cheaper when it comes to their hobby.
Look how successful was ps3 with a slight superior launch price.
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The only way I see this working is if the support for it is substantive and automatic, not requiring developer support. Ie if Sony sold a £1300 ai powered high end machine, that could instantly perform generative upscaling, remastering and or restyling on any game without any developer input to make it work. If a ps4 game could immediately look like a next gen game via ai, or even look "real", ie flip a switch and it looks as real as veo3, or move a slider and it now looks like an anime. Players being able to remix their visuals and experience and breathe new life into older games, or automatically have far superior looking games would make it an easy buy for those who can afford it, offering features and experiencing no other cheaper console could offer, and not requiring expensive support from devs who mostly won't bother.
Games Bookstore
Member
The question comes down to whether it's a worthwhile investment for both the manufacturer and the buyer
Let's say you create a truly "balls to the walls" console. Are enough people going to buy it to make it profitable?
If you're someone like Sony, the base console is still going to have to prop up the deficit of sales that are only made on the BTTW model, even if each console sold is for profit.
As the ratio at best will likely be 10:1 base to BTTW units sold. How much time and effort are devs going to put into getting the most out of this console when even the Pro model, the upgrade is generally modest at best.
Finally as a consumer are you really prepared to pay that much for a console? If you are already that much of an enthusiast, you'll own a high end PC.
Now with all above said, I do think it's possible. Sony has had moderate success with both Pro models so far. If the right balance is struck I think Microsoft for example could find a decent niche with their Xbox PCs.
Example scenario:
-Profitable upper range xbox branded PC hardware that isn't ridiculous expensive, so you know it is the best version to play (other than the high end PC of course).
- Dual boot system ie a normal Windows mode and an xbox mode which disables a lot of the bloated windows overheads.
-10-20million lifetime sales.
-All 1st party games (except COD and GAAS / Multiplayer) are time exclusive for 6-12months on the xbox ecosystem and then sold on PlayStation and Switch thereafter.
I suspect the example above could work for Microsoft if done thoughtfully.
Let's say you create a truly "balls to the walls" console. Are enough people going to buy it to make it profitable?
If you're someone like Sony, the base console is still going to have to prop up the deficit of sales that are only made on the BTTW model, even if each console sold is for profit.
As the ratio at best will likely be 10:1 base to BTTW units sold. How much time and effort are devs going to put into getting the most out of this console when even the Pro model, the upgrade is generally modest at best.
Finally as a consumer are you really prepared to pay that much for a console? If you are already that much of an enthusiast, you'll own a high end PC.
Now with all above said, I do think it's possible. Sony has had moderate success with both Pro models so far. If the right balance is struck I think Microsoft for example could find a decent niche with their Xbox PCs.
Example scenario:
-Profitable upper range xbox branded PC hardware that isn't ridiculous expensive, so you know it is the best version to play (other than the high end PC of course).
- Dual boot system ie a normal Windows mode and an xbox mode which disables a lot of the bloated windows overheads.
-10-20million lifetime sales.
-All 1st party games (except COD and GAAS / Multiplayer) are time exclusive for 6-12months on the xbox ecosystem and then sold on PlayStation and Switch thereafter.
I suspect the example above could work for Microsoft if done thoughtfully.
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rodrigolfp
Haptic Gamepads 4 Life
Maybe a market as big as the one for RTX 4090/5090. Good thing it would make a "new Crysis" more possible.
PS5 and PS5 Pro would still be around.
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Angry_Megalodon
Member
PS5 Pro IMO is reachign the limit already. It's something for enthusiastics, but I doubt there's market for something even more expensive, considering that games would not take advantage of its power. At the end of the day, it's all about games. In PC there are mods and some other stuff that consoles don't have.
rodrigolfp
Haptic Gamepads 4 Life
PS5 Pro already has born with things its limits can only dream about like full RT/path tracing, all assets at ultra setting, IQ at native 4k/DLAA/DLSS quality level...
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Spyxos
Member
You make the mistake of thinking that everyone who pays 1000+ for a cell phone is also willing to pay for consoles. Cell phones are almost vital for many people. Consoles, and I include gaming PCs in that, are simply a hobby.
DeltaPolarBear
Member
The greatest issues with an expensive console, is that it doesn't make more money than if the customer had bought a normal console. Because the money was never in the hardware, but the games.
Maybe, just maybe, if the expensive console also come with games that are 20 dollars more expensive than usual, then it might be worth the platform owner's time. But that is not what you want is it? You are already complaining about 80 dollar games, you certainly wouldn't pay 100 dollars instead.
And that is the issue. That the money is in the games and making a more powerful console doesn't actually increase profits. You are going to buy the normal console anyway, the platform would rather you use the leftover money to buy an extra game.
Maybe, just maybe, if the expensive console also come with games that are 20 dollars more expensive than usual, then it might be worth the platform owner's time. But that is not what you want is it? You are already complaining about 80 dollar games, you certainly wouldn't pay 100 dollars instead.
And that is the issue. That the money is in the games and making a more powerful console doesn't actually increase profits. You are going to buy the normal console anyway, the platform would rather you use the leftover money to buy an extra game.
ShadyAcshuns
Gold Member
All old as fuck, too.
Lokaum D+
Member
he said high end, not over priced mid rangeYes .
The PlayStation 5 Pro has proven there's a high end market.
rodrigolfp
Haptic Gamepads 4 Life
$1000+ cell phones are not vital for many people. Some of the cheapest that can run the vital apps and make calls may be.
Spyxos
Member
People upgrade their cell phones every 2 years. And they usually spend a lot of money there.
rodrigolfp
Haptic Gamepads 4 Life
So those that upgrade their $1000+ phones every 2 years will upgrade their $1000+ console every 6/7+ years.
Esppiral
Member
He said high end not half assed refresh.Yes .
The PlayStation 5 Pro has proven there's a high end market.
HRK69
Member
Ah you are one of those people
ShadyAcshuns
Gold Member
... who believes in generations.
Spyxos
Member
yurinka
Member
PS5 Pro seems more successful than PS4 Pro was.
More expensive than this, adjusting inflation we had cases like 3DO or Neogeo, which were total commercial failures.
Regarding a $1000+ console, unless it's a PS6 Pro, I don't see market for it. Because most AAA sales are for PS, which means devs use them as primary device and optimize their games mostly around them. So most devs wouldn't take effort to maximize the extra horsepower and tech advantages it would deliver.
Most players, who lots of them already complained about the PS5 Pro or Switch 2 pricing, wouldn't see the price increase justified in the difference of how games would look in these high end consoles.
So I think so far the PS5 Pro budget in pricing/costs may be the sweet spot for them.
More expensive than this, adjusting inflation we had cases like 3DO or Neogeo, which were total commercial failures.
Regarding a $1000+ console, unless it's a PS6 Pro, I don't see market for it. Because most AAA sales are for PS, which means devs use them as primary device and optimize their games mostly around them. So most devs wouldn't take effort to maximize the extra horsepower and tech advantages it would deliver.
Most players, who lots of them already complained about the PS5 Pro or Switch 2 pricing, wouldn't see the price increase justified in the difference of how games would look in these high end consoles.
So I think so far the PS5 Pro budget in pricing/costs may be the sweet spot for them.
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