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K-Pop Fanboy/Fangirl |OT7| A Great Trash Leader as Always
- Thread starter No No Eul
- Start date
Dice is ok with groups faking cute but not ok with groups having a "their right age" concept, part 27.
And I don't know what's sensual about that, there is like a couple of maybe sexy moves and maybe some of the lyrics that go there? Again the younger is 17, so maybe that's a bit off, but even Twice's debut was more sensual than this.
And I don't know what's sensual about that, there is like a couple of maybe sexy moves and maybe some of the lyrics that go there? Again the younger is 17, so maybe that's a bit off, but even Twice's debut was more sensual than this.
YG Yang Hyun Suk pretty much said he didn't try to make Black Pink different from 2NE1 cause he wanted them to go make it like YG music cause they have their own style of music and characteristics.
Dice
Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
I deliberately went out of my way to be clear enough that this is NOT what I was saying and you still took it that way. Let me be more clear:
Yes, a billion girl groups put on the cutesy concept, but it is also very widely acknowledged that it is an act. This is how it is with most concepts, not just cute ones, even when it comes to needing to be a certain way with the public off-stage. However, it is my perspective that YG really pushes hard to sell the act as the true them, which can sometimes happen with groups from other agencies but is much less common. It is far more common that the public persona is like a conception they are working to live up to, and that understanding matches the reality of the situation. YG's whole self-narrative is not this way, and it very often comes out in interviews as well. As I said, it makes them come off fake, arrogant, detached from reality, and (in the appropriation of their perspective of hiphop) socially awkward. Some take it as bold confidence to become what they want to be, and some artists can sorta pull off that kind of thing (Zion.T), but for me it has never felt that way with YG.
Edit: That last statement is in regard to their group concepts. PSY is obviously his own man and I liked when they let GD go be weird in whatever way he wanted and it resulted in the Coup D'état project (album & multiple MVs/concepts).
I said sexuality, not sensuality. Sexuality can be every bit as much expressed energetically as it can sensually. I was also speaking in direct comparison to 2NE1, not all girl groups. Look at older 2NE1 concepts and you see a greater balance between expressing all characteristics of a person. Presentation speaks to aims for the nature of reception. I wasn't judging it, just noticing the difference and wondering if they mindfully wanted to, say, come off less "baddest female" and more sexy-fun in the weighting of characteristics, or if it was incidental from following trends.
Die Squirrel Die
Member
I agree with you on Boombayah, it was building up nicely and then the hook was just kinda meh.
I really liked Whistle though, although I must admit the MV might be helping selling it. I like my music videos with lots of weird imagery that's there just cause they felt like it. Also Dreamcast controller.
wolfwolfwolf
Member
I like most of Whistle but hate the other song. Shame they didn't go for something different with this group. Never been a fan of 2NE1.
Whistle also reminds me of this song.
Whistle also reminds me of this song.
Boombayah is more fun than I thought it would be reading the responses here.
Whistle is great. Red Velvet touches as someone mentioned. 4Minute meets Red Velvet. One of the best debuts recently.
Dice's complaints can not fail to provoke as long as there's such a lack of k girl groups allowed to be 'tough' and hard, especially with the death of 4Minute. I'll cheer on any group taking that route regardles of YG PR..
I'll give Dice one thing. I wish idols were allowed to stand out more off stage as well. To be real. Some try, like Krystal and Sulli. Sulli did her best for a while but had to quit the group eventually to live life as she wished.
Most groups, however different their personalities may be, have to play the humble rookie idols game with all its formalities and conventions. That's a problem that's bigger than groups or labels - it's the industry and society to blame.
We do see some exceptions. But if you actually are a tough mofo, like Sulli, you will be criticized and hounded for it until you've had enough.
This is also why 2NE1 simply didn't do TV for a long time - only music shows. For the past few years, maybe always, CL has done her thing and stayed "real" so I don't really see why Dice would single out YG in this discussion. Probably closer to her stage personality than 99% of idols.
Whistle is great. Red Velvet touches as someone mentioned. 4Minute meets Red Velvet. One of the best debuts recently.
Dice's complaints can not fail to provoke as long as there's such a lack of k girl groups allowed to be 'tough' and hard, especially with the death of 4Minute. I'll cheer on any group taking that route regardles of YG PR..
I'll give Dice one thing. I wish idols were allowed to stand out more off stage as well. To be real. Some try, like Krystal and Sulli. Sulli did her best for a while but had to quit the group eventually to live life as she wished.
Most groups, however different their personalities may be, have to play the humble rookie idols game with all its formalities and conventions. That's a problem that's bigger than groups or labels - it's the industry and society to blame.
We do see some exceptions. But if you actually are a tough mofo, like Sulli, you will be criticized and hounded for it until you've had enough.
This is also why 2NE1 simply didn't do TV for a long time - only music shows. For the past few years, maybe always, CL has done her thing and stayed "real" so I don't really see why Dice would single out YG in this discussion. Probably closer to her stage personality than 99% of idols.
jongkookie
Member
Yeah, this goes in line with what I was saying a few days ago about YG groups.
It's really evident with Big Bang too, they act like hard asses everytime there's a camera on them but when they get thrown in a variety show with comedians, they look like middle schoolers who got their first taste of alcohol. How many years has it been since they've debuted? Surely they've got enough clout inside YG to be themselves whenever/wherever they want to be?
Anyway, as for Black Pink...
I like it. Mainly because they did exactly what I wanted them to do, which is to avoid the "sweg" bullshit that K-pop groups love to do. Lisa definitely has the swag to deliver properly, Jennie on the other hand has the potential but right now she feels like a Wal-Mart version of Kisum. The other two are pretty but they really didn't stand out against Lisa or Jennie so I don't have any comments on that yet.
That said I'm a little underwhelmed in regards to the music, it's just there and it doesn't do much. Boombayah is good but it too is just there. I really like Whistle but the anti-chorus is a lame and tired trope, the rest of the song is really catchy though.
Overall, I'm definitely keeping an eye on them now. They've got the potential to do gangbusters but imo, they'll only be able to do it if they immediately step away from trying to sound like Big Bang or 2NE1.
Also, Jennie is a qt3.14.
Not bad! I prefer Whistle to Boombayah, but they're both decent. Catching some 2NE1 vibes obviously.
This is actually a jam. Love it. Currently #2 on Melon behind Whistle.
damn they all slayed. can't believe Somi is only 15
They look tweens playing teens.. the song is ok-ish.
2NE1v2 yes, Whistle chorus looks something from 2012, overall is not my kind of music.
More Tae, better fancams
Pray
I Love You
UR
Queens.
Song is solid
AgentChris
Member
I like this 2ne1 neo that YG just unleashed. Been missing this sound.
Dice
Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
Fair point in regards to society rallying against it, but I'm not just talking about "toughness" but their appropriation of a concept of hiphop and acting like it is their true identity rather than something they are working on.
In one way, it is kind of like when people hated Drake when he acted like he was from the worst areas of Philly or something. Yeah, we all have our own ideas of humble beginnings and progression and what it means to "be" something, but simply taking an interest in something and putting it on is much different from being raised up in it.
Granted, you can work your life and self into something and then have achievements and a place in it. Drake eventually did that, CL did too. And if you are really "real" about it then you discuss the nature of that process, you don't put on images of false history just because you liked it. I think YG often sells itself in a way that isn't honest to the chasm between its admiration and its craft, and that is not just annoying, it's kind of sad because that means it overlooks the positive aspects of its own work, how culture is transmitted and seeds develop into their own gardens. Part of it is undoubtedly due to marketing, as though artistry itself is a brand you can merely sign into and magically be by association.
Second, there is an extent to which you have to know your place among artists and professionals. I have a friend I used to do a lot of music gigs with and sometimes we'd work together and sometimes we'd play at the same places separately. For whatever reason I was often received considerably better, but while people may have jumped to praise, I couldn't receive certain perceptions because they were outright false, especially in comparison to my friend.
I always had to go out of my way to craft something and practice it to do it, but he never stopped. He was constantly writing new songs almost every day and learning new ways of playing and new instruments. He could do something in the moment better than I could and could work with more people better. He truly was all about music as a craft and way of being, but while I love music and have plenty of experience in it, it's yet an interest I reach out to. Even if I decided that I want to fully commit all aspects of life to the work, even combining with the reality of my long-term love of music and experience in it wasn't going to make inbuilt character for the art instantly appear.
This is one of the things I always liked about IU and the Wonder Girls. While they were fully committed, and while they had lifelong love of music and reception in it, they still recognized how in-process they were in terms of developing from performing artists to crafting artists, and recognized where they truly stood among the people they work with all the time and the greats of music history, not just where they aspired to be. It doesn't matter if what you do when you set yourself to it is really well received, that doesn't mean you have become all those things. You can get there, but you have to be honest about the process.
I don't think art is just some clothing you put on that magically makes you something different. If you don't think YG breeds an arrogant culture that believes precisely that, I don't know how to convince you. Can artists eventually step into their dream, shape themselves into their craft? Sure. Can't deny the journey and achievements of IU, WG, CL, or GD. Can I say the latter two weren't any different from the former two in how they viewed and spoke about the reality of their journey? No. There is a world of difference, and it makes for vastly different levels of respect both along the way and in the end. The way you speak about artists is usually in regard to the impact of their actions on society, so maybe you just have entirely different things you value.
I can see your perspective, but I think it's false to single out YG to that extent. It's easier to spot the 'hats' they put on because their genre references are obvious, but to extend that to claim the artists are more pretentious than the groups putting on other k-pop hats... well we more or less had the same debate about Mamamoo.
I think you're a little affected by how YG fans can be annoyingly pretentious about their favorites, though. They'll say stupid stuff about how YG do real music and YG idols are real artists as opposed to all the others. That shit is dumb, but you've got to separate dumb fans and the artists themselves.
I do perhaps have a more active interest in the interplay between pop culture and society in Korea than other countries - for various reasons. I think it can be a force for good in challenging some of the more conservative facets of Korean culture, but at times it will clearly also reflect those values. Ups and downs. And in the case of something like IU's 'Twenty-three' that tension was the source of super exciting and bold pop performance.
But in this case I argue more for simple variety on the pop scene - we need more girl groups that are not just cute n quirky, period. The simple existence of mainstream groups that are different will again inspire more departure from the norm. And I think in this thread there's a tendency to be harder on groups that are not cute n quirky. There's a gut reaction from some users against anything that purports to 'swag', but that braggadocio's been a natural part of pop performance since the good old 50s.
I think you're a little affected by how YG fans can be annoyingly pretentious about their favorites, though. They'll say stupid stuff about how YG do real music and YG idols are real artists as opposed to all the others. That shit is dumb, but you've got to separate dumb fans and the artists themselves.
I do perhaps have a more active interest in the interplay between pop culture and society in Korea than other countries - for various reasons. I think it can be a force for good in challenging some of the more conservative facets of Korean culture, but at times it will clearly also reflect those values. Ups and downs. And in the case of something like IU's 'Twenty-three' that tension was the source of super exciting and bold pop performance.
But in this case I argue more for simple variety on the pop scene - we need more girl groups that are not just cute n quirky, period. The simple existence of mainstream groups that are different will again inspire more departure from the norm. And I think in this thread there's a tendency to be harder on groups that are not cute n quirky. There's a gut reaction from some users against anything that purports to 'swag', but that braggadocio's been a natural part of pop performance since the good old 50s.
Dice
Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
In terms of the negative reaction to "swag" I think it may be a confusion developed in the middle of various cultural perceptions and struggles. A lot of people are caught up in identifying cultural appropriation, but I don't think very many actually understand the mechanics of it, when it is merely a natural transfer and what makes it offensive when it is an offense. For an innocuous example in music, if I wanted to do some "old timey" musical performance in an "authentic" way, I'd probably appropriate a transatlantic accent, and that doesn't even exist anymore.
I think similarly when people want to do hiphop they'll adopt not only the styles but the affectations of hiphop artists they know, thinking of it as what it means to rap, paying no mind to cultural mimicry. When this comes out into the music scene, there is a confusion about how to receive a person who is on the one hand trying to step into a craft in authenticity to what the craft is in their perception, and on the other hand seems to be laying claim to an identity that is not their own. A lot of the final judgement comes down to how honest you are about your past, your progress, and your relations. It cannot just be the identity of a brand you signed onto.
Not "being real" about this chasm can result in annoying arrogance, or sometimes in downright embarrassments like when Bobby said hiphop life is like not taking a shower and high-fiving your friends.
I think similarly when people want to do hiphop they'll adopt not only the styles but the affectations of hiphop artists they know, thinking of it as what it means to rap, paying no mind to cultural mimicry. When this comes out into the music scene, there is a confusion about how to receive a person who is on the one hand trying to step into a craft in authenticity to what the craft is in their perception, and on the other hand seems to be laying claim to an identity that is not their own. A lot of the final judgement comes down to how honest you are about your past, your progress, and your relations. It cannot just be the identity of a brand you signed onto.
Not "being real" about this chasm can result in annoying arrogance, or sometimes in downright embarrassments like when Bobby said hiphop life is like not taking a shower and high-fiving your friends.
I.O.I - "Whatta Man" stage performance from their showcase
pinkurocket
Member
I'm impressed with I.O.I, the song is kinda alright but they are really owning it which makes it that much better.
Whan it comes to Blackpink, I am quite intrigued by the members, but the 2NE1 2.0 sound isn't really my thing. I'm going to sit this one out, maybe they'll grow on me.
Whan it comes to Blackpink, I am quite intrigued by the members, but the 2NE1 2.0 sound isn't really my thing. I'm going to sit this one out, maybe they'll grow on me.
Dice
Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
Further thoughts:
Why do so many of them not only fail to break though, but can't even maintain a nominal existence, all while some like 2NE1 and 4Minute do pretty damn well? If it takes a BlackPink to keep the cultural strain alive, I can tolerate them for that virtue (not that I find them offensive, just doesn't hook me), but if they become well received while so many great groups were basically ignored from the start, it's really annoying. I also can't praise them for being "cool" and "badass" when other groups that have unfortunately come and gone did it way better.
Edit: After further examination, Lisa is obviously best. Will probably be first to do solo promotions.
I can agree with this, I guess. Although what Korea accepts and doesn't accept seems to have no rhyme or reason to it. We're all aware of the groups of badass ladies that have popped up and died off over the years, even when they are ridiculously talented with great songs. I could make a whole pseudo-genre in my mp3s called "dead awesome nugus" because it's great music that I keep around. Some others start bombing out hard so they switch concepts to survive.
Why do so many of them not only fail to break though, but can't even maintain a nominal existence, all while some like 2NE1 and 4Minute do pretty damn well? If it takes a BlackPink to keep the cultural strain alive, I can tolerate them for that virtue (not that I find them offensive, just doesn't hook me), but if they become well received while so many great groups were basically ignored from the start, it's really annoying. I also can't praise them for being "cool" and "badass" when other groups that have unfortunately come and gone did it way better.
Edit: After further examination, Lisa is obviously best. Will probably be first to do solo promotions.
Boss Mog
Member
WTF is up with BLACKPINK? The numbers for BOTH their videos are INSANE.
Boombayah MV is on track to do over 3 mil in 24 hours. I'm pretty sure "Cheer Up" had under 2 mil in the first 24 hours.
People were talking about Gugudan and Pledis Girlz because they had I.O.I members but it's been over a month since their MVs came out and Gugudan is at 2.7 mil and Pledis Girlz haven't even hit 1 mil yet.
For a new girl group who didn't even come from a TV show or anything, I'm just blown away by their numbers especially with them having two videos out at once.I wish I liked the songs more, but sadly I don't care for them that much. But it looks like these girls might be the next big thing apparently...
Boombayah MV is on track to do over 3 mil in 24 hours. I'm pretty sure "Cheer Up" had under 2 mil in the first 24 hours.
People were talking about Gugudan and Pledis Girlz because they had I.O.I members but it's been over a month since their MVs came out and Gugudan is at 2.7 mil and Pledis Girlz haven't even hit 1 mil yet.
For a new girl group who didn't even come from a TV show or anything, I'm just blown away by their numbers especially with them having two videos out at once.I wish I liked the songs more, but sadly I don't care for them that much. But it looks like these girls might be the next big thing apparently...
Boss Mog
Member
Even for a brand new group which hasn't released anything yet? That seems crazy to me, sometimes I feel like I don't get Kpop fans at all.
Black Pink is a group from one of the 3 top music entertainment companies where groups under the same label are treated by fans as extended family. And in Black Pink's case not only are they going to have Big Bang/Winner/iKon fans watching the vids, they are going to have a hell of a lot of Blackjacks checking out the releases now that uncertainty surrounds 2NE1.
I.O.I had a tv show (or two), but there's a sports team mentality amongst a good number of fans of YG Family/SM Town/JYP Nation. Hard to beat that fervor.
I.O.I had a tv show (or two), but there's a sports team mentality amongst a good number of fans of YG Family/SM Town/JYP Nation. Hard to beat that fervor.
AgentChris
Member
Every group YG debuts is treated like a Big Bang from day 1. YG is great at building hype and thirst.
Supermanisdead
Member
Whistle is much better than Boombayah. Whistle might be amazing if it didn't have that drastic tone shift in the pre-chorus. Really bizarre; felt like a different song entirely. Boombayah is just... not doing it.
The I.O.I song is cute, but not amazing. Still not sold on this group.
The I.O.I song is cute, but not amazing. Still not sold on this group.
Vigilant Walrus
Member
I'm now done with GAF Essential K-Pop and GAF Classic K-Pop playlists. I enjoyed them a lot, but many of my favorites are on the classic playlist.
This was a lot of fun. Thanks everyone
This was a lot of fun. Thanks everyone
Dice
Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
Whistle is such a jam
crimzonflame
Member
"pew pew pew Rambo" is the line of the year.
Wow, looks like I missed out on the conversation, just caught up with the thread. It does raise a few things...
This whole subject is precisely why I'm drawn to K-pop in the first place, and also, by the same token, why it has the capacity to irritate me in equal measure.
The way in which images and concepts are played with in K-pop is something I like, because chances are, if you don't feel particularly drawn to a certain style, they'll probably have abandoned within a year anyway. Though, whenever you don't like it, you're bound to look in plainly for what is, a calculated marketing move, devoid of any authenticity.
I think when it succeeds, it does so by being an amalgamation of what we know, whilst also adapting it to a new audience, and putting their own cultural-bent on it. At worst, it attempts to imitate it's influences a little too closely, loses any sort of identity, and as a result, sounds like a terrible pastiche (or even a parody), and just serves to offend/alienate those it seeks to homage in the first place. Imitation is a tricky thing, because if the execution isn't flawless, it breeds resentment in it's audience. I guess the main thing in this whole conversation is that aforementioned 'authenticity', and that's something this genre always struggles with. It doesn't help that hip-hop, it's so vital.
This whole subject is precisely why I'm drawn to K-pop in the first place, and also, by the same token, why it has the capacity to irritate me in equal measure.
The way in which images and concepts are played with in K-pop is something I like, because chances are, if you don't feel particularly drawn to a certain style, they'll probably have abandoned within a year anyway. Though, whenever you don't like it, you're bound to look in plainly for what is, a calculated marketing move, devoid of any authenticity.
I think when it succeeds, it does so by being an amalgamation of what we know, whilst also adapting it to a new audience, and putting their own cultural-bent on it. At worst, it attempts to imitate it's influences a little too closely, loses any sort of identity, and as a result, sounds like a terrible pastiche (or even a parody), and just serves to offend/alienate those it seeks to homage in the first place. Imitation is a tricky thing, because if the execution isn't flawless, it breeds resentment in it's audience. I guess the main thing in this whole conversation is that aforementioned 'authenticity', and that's something this genre always struggles with. It doesn't help that hip-hop, it's so vital.
Wendel Clark
Member
Boss★Moogle;212947575 said:
big 3 company /thread
You need to put it in a table 4minute bot -style.
Dice
Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
Supermanisdead
Member
noooooooooooooo