-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Kai Cole, Joss Whedon's Ex-Wife, calls him out as a 'Hypocrite Preaching Feminism'
- Thread starter Goodstyle
- Start date
Basically this:
When age of ultron came out there was a ton of "how could he be disrespectful, he's a feminist?". It becomes a shield for him and it ends up being damaging for other people when they take his actions while taking his word for who he is rather than recognizing he's disingenuous about it.
BlueTsunami
there is joy in sucking dick
That's some crazy rationalisation, and an amazing sense of grandeur
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
99% of gaffers would bang hot young Hollywood actresses if they had the chance. It's very hard to say no when you are a creator producer who every aspiring actor wants to sleep with.
I don't know how this makes him an anti feminists. Just an asshole who cheated on his wife and strung her along for 15 years. He's a grade a Cunt but this has nothing to do with feminism. Everyone cheats. Black white, gay, straight, racists and liberals.
I don't know how this makes him an anti feminists. Just an asshole who cheated on his wife and strung her along for 15 years. He's a grade a Cunt but this has nothing to do with feminism. Everyone cheats. Black white, gay, straight, racists and liberals.
Vampirolol
Member
I don't understand why making mistakes in a relationship should change what he says and does for feminism. Good luck looking into someone's life without finding huge contraditcions.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
The fact that Whedon has to be "cute" while telling his wife about the young women he wants to fuck is disgusting.
Whedon has always come off as trying way too hard to sound like he writes.
1) He cheated on her, multiple times. In secret.
2) Not all flaws are created equal.
Not all of us are married tho...
Trying to play it off as "Whoops, well, it was inevitable" is weird, but alright.
FinalStageBoss
Banned
Nah
entremet
Member
The argument is not about marital status but his power position.
Not saying I agree, but its more nuanced than whether youre married.
MrS
Banned
No it isn't. Spill the beans.
I don't like subscribing fidelity to feminism because it doesn't really work in the reverse.
A man who cheats on his wife is a bad feminist. But a woman who cheats on her husband is a...???
While cheating can certainly be a symptom of misogyny, I think oftentimes it's more emblematic of one's own lack of moral fiber, trustworthiness and will power than it is their specific views on women.
A person (not necessarily Joss, because there are other issues with his feminism) can simultaneously consider themselves a feminist and not be able to keep their dick in their pants.
A man who cheats on his wife is a bad feminist. But a woman who cheats on her husband is a...???
While cheating can certainly be a symptom of misogyny, I think oftentimes it's more emblematic of one's own lack of moral fiber, trustworthiness and will power than it is their specific views on women.
A person (not necessarily Joss, because there are other issues with his feminism) can simultaneously consider themselves a feminist and not be able to keep their dick in their pants.
Don't play this game.
nickinerdface
Banned
how does prostitution tie into the discussion about joss whedon? is whedon giving better parts to the employees he sleeps with the transaction, so they're prostituting themselves for better parts versus regular prostitution when it's just money? and then what about the fans he's supposedly slept with, what did they get out of the transaction? not sure how prostitution relates to this situation admittedly lol, especially since you seem to be using it as a defense.
That makes him looks worse. It translates to: "Basically, she's a liar, but I want to look like the bigger person, so I'm going to word this in a way that makes me look like I'm not retaliating...but you still get she's a liar, right?"
That message plays perfectly in line with him being a hypocrite of a feminist, for show.
I'm aware, I'm just saying that him being married is yet another reason why saying "You'd do it too if you were him" is a weird thing to say.
BlueTsunami
there is joy in sucking dick
Spike
Vampirolol
Member
So cheating on a partner makes you a fake feminist? Well I have a bad news for you...
By the way, it's ok to condemn the man for what he allegedly did but why condemn the ideas he tries to express?
lightskintwin
Banned
This.
I'm sure you didn't mean it literally, but I'm still just going to say not true on this.
I mean first mistake would be to assume a Hollywood producer isn't a skeezbag...
This is grossly disappointing, and probably in the realm of "should've seen it coming"
But I also agree with the comments that this doesn't relate directly to his views on feminism. One does not cancel out the possibility of the other.
googleplex
Member
Exactly what i was going to ask? Marital infidelity has NOTHING to do with Feminism.
Yeah. I took it more as a 'people of all colors, sexualities, etc.' cheat than literally every person on the planet.
AuthenticM
Member
well-said
WhateverItTakes
Banned
Yeah, us all being terrible doesn't make us any less terrible in this case.
It's also worth pointing out that abusing his power as producer on impressionable young women isn't even something she accuses him of.
Oh God were Angel and Spike stand in's for Joss...
lightskintwin
Banned
It's definitely not true, however I will say I do believe in general (obviously not everybody) that people are as faithful as their options.
nocturnalis
Member
Either 85%+ people in this thread are being purposefully obtuse or they fail to understand that women facing pressure to sleep with workplace superiors is a serious problem.
This is what bothers me more than anything. Cheating is one thing, but the way he broke this woman down and kept her around as shield comes off as disturbing. Also really makes me rethink a lot of his friendships with his actresses, like Amy Acker for example. That may have been an emotional affair that his wife found inappropriate.
Although, this could all be exaggerated, since Joss has his own side in this. I put the editor's note in the OP a while ago, but I definitely should have done that in the first place, my bad.
On Joss being a 'bad' feminist:
Feminism is ultimately a philosophy and how good a feminist you are is kind of dependent on how well you live the ideals of that philosophy. If you go tell everyone how much of a vegan you are and it's revealed you eat a burger once a week, it's fair to say you are a bad vegan, even if you truly honestly believe in the ideals of veganism and that eating animals is wrong. The way Joss has always come across to me, and especially in light of this story is that his beliefs are authentic, he just failed to live up to them in a major way.
It's not cheating itself, but the various associations his particular case of cheating has. The power dynamic he has between himself and the actresses he worked with (even if they were consensual) as well as the risk of STD he exposed to his wife play a huge factor. But for me, this quote sticks out.
This whole thing might have read different if he had cheated on his wife with women he met outside his work set, like with strangers at a bar or whatever. That would have still been not good, but it would have been with someone on equal terms. But he did it with women who were directly under his power as a director, which he should know that he only has as a result of a great deal of gender bias toward male directors. And this quote suggests that this is a part of what attracted him to those women in particular, because of the power he wielded over them....
So when you say you ascribe to a philosophy set against use of patriarchal power and then, when you are in a position of power, you use it to do the very thing feminism argues against....it's hard to say that you aren't being a bad feminist in that moment. Even if you believe in the ideals of feminism on a philosophical or intellectual level, which I think Whedon does. He just can't seem to reconcile that with enjoying patriarchal privilege.
That said, I'm not a fan of using this to discredit the feministic values and accomplishments he wrote into his work. When people talk about seperating the author from the work, it doesn't mean pretending the author doesn't exist (because that's pointless), but rather not letting who the author is dictate the meaning of that work. I've wrote before about how, in Firefly, he crafted a universe where sexism was severely underpowered as a social belief, even if it still existed, and I still think that holds true. The story Whedon wrote exists outside of who Whedon is as a person.
Edit: There is also his personal treatment of his wife to consider. From what his wife describes, he objectified her, not sexually, but as a shield to for him to use to protect his own reputation. Again, if this was just an affair, it might not have much track with putting his feminist ideals in question, but the fact that he used her like this instead of treating her as a person is contrary to feminist ideology of treating women humanistically.
Feminism is ultimately a philosophy and how good a feminist you are is kind of dependent on how well you live the ideals of that philosophy. If you go tell everyone how much of a vegan you are and it's revealed you eat a burger once a week, it's fair to say you are a bad vegan, even if you truly honestly believe in the ideals of veganism and that eating animals is wrong. The way Joss has always come across to me, and especially in light of this story is that his beliefs are authentic, he just failed to live up to them in a major way.
It's not cheating itself, but the various associations his particular case of cheating has. The power dynamic he has between himself and the actresses he worked with (even if they were consensual) as well as the risk of STD he exposed to his wife play a huge factor. But for me, this quote sticks out.
This whole thing might have read different if he had cheated on his wife with women he met outside his work set, like with strangers at a bar or whatever. That would have still been not good, but it would have been with someone on equal terms. But he did it with women who were directly under his power as a director, which he should know that he only has as a result of a great deal of gender bias toward male directors. And this quote suggests that this is a part of what attracted him to those women in particular, because of the power he wielded over them....
So when you say you ascribe to a philosophy set against use of patriarchal power and then, when you are in a position of power, you use it to do the very thing feminism argues against....it's hard to say that you aren't being a bad feminist in that moment. Even if you believe in the ideals of feminism on a philosophical or intellectual level, which I think Whedon does. He just can't seem to reconcile that with enjoying patriarchal privilege.
That said, I'm not a fan of using this to discredit the feministic values and accomplishments he wrote into his work. When people talk about seperating the author from the work, it doesn't mean pretending the author doesn't exist (because that's pointless), but rather not letting who the author is dictate the meaning of that work. I've wrote before about how, in Firefly, he crafted a universe where sexism was severely underpowered as a social belief, even if it still existed, and I still think that holds true. The story Whedon wrote exists outside of who Whedon is as a person.
Edit: There is also his personal treatment of his wife to consider. From what his wife describes, he objectified her, not sexually, but as a shield to for him to use to protect his own reputation. Again, if this was just an affair, it might not have much track with putting his feminist ideals in question, but the fact that he used her like this instead of treating her as a person is contrary to feminist ideology of treating women humanistically.
Random Human
They were trying to grab your prize. They work for the mercenary. The masked man.
Huh, this is... actually really telling. That absolutely sounds like Noxon dropping some dirt on Whedon.
That 99% of gaffers will make a thread first asking how to talk to those hot hollywood actresses.
Glass Rebel
Member
I am not sure why people are looking at infidelity as this isolated thing instead of one of many elements that put his supposed feminism in a very bad light.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Not only that but theres an insinuation that the blog is harming their kids and that joss, knowing this and pointing it out a sentence ago, will not say anything to further harm the family.
It basically reeks of Joss(or his spokeperson) saying "wow shes damaging our kids, lying, and I will not speak up because I respect her."
Pretty much.
Unless you had him a pedestal, nothing here is monstrous enough to pull out pitchforks or to retroactively dismiss his body of work.
Pretty scummy though.
Vigilant Walrus
Member
I feel bad for the ex-wife. It sounds like her life has been ruined and she is still putting back the pieces.
But does Joss Whedon being a bad husband and a cheater has anything to do with being a feminist? It seems to me that you're a feminist if you believe that men and women are equal. It's separated from that you're a good or bad person.
But does Joss Whedon being a bad husband and a cheater has anything to do with being a feminist? It seems to me that you're a feminist if you believe that men and women are equal. It's separated from that you're a good or bad person.
lightskintwin
Banned
It's the whole catalyst to them getting divorced and now putting him on blast about.
H.Protagonist
[-_-]/
Yup. Never carried any real flag for the guy, but still pretty shitty to hear that someone who's supposedly in your corner is a douchebag.
nickinerdface
Banned
I think if we were in the reverse scenario, where a famous female director had bolstered her career by championing the equal and respectful treatment of men, and then it was discovered that she'd cheated on her husband to sleep around with younger male actors, it would be equally indicative of her sucking, as a person.
Joss Whedon and celebrities are humans with flaws. The expectation for them to be an idyllic representation or brand is what we have come to expect from public people like actors and big name directors, but this has not changed and is unsurprising.
Tiger Woods was the same way. People for some reason hated Tiger Woods for being the best golfer in the world whose brand as a family man was publicly shattered.
I can understand with politicians preaching family values and morals to win elections, but Whedon and Woods cheating on their wives is a personal issue.
Whedon sleeping with actresses is an ethically messy thing though if he is taking advantage of his position of power.
Tiger Woods was the same way. People for some reason hated Tiger Woods for being the best golfer in the world whose brand as a family man was publicly shattered.
I can understand with politicians preaching family values and morals to win elections, but Whedon and Woods cheating on their wives is a personal issue.
Whedon sleeping with actresses is an ethically messy thing though if he is taking advantage of his position of power.
MontyBrown
Banned
All successful, rich and famous people are scumbags. It's so cute this would surprise anyone.
Or that anyone would care, for that matter.
Or that anyone would care, for that matter.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Yes.
And it doesn't make you look good or unbiased when you accuse any entire thread of having skeletons in their closet as big as the one under fire.
If his actions betray those ideas....
Also, what ideas specifically are you talking about?
I think it is more the obnoxious hypocrisy of his public feminist persona that bothers people rather than any real surprise.