i understand your point STUMP. i didn't mean to come off as "celebratory" or anything .. I'm not HAPPY the dude is dead, but I'm going on the assumption that he was an armed criminal who got shot by a cop. On the "sadness of death" scale that's close down at the bottom for me. It isn't a "tragedy" for me, is all i'm saying.
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Leader of Oregon occupation Ammon Bundy, at least 8 others arrested
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i understand your point STUMP. i didn't mean to come off as "celebratory" or anything .. I'm not HAPPY the dude is dead, but I'm going on the assumption that he was an armed criminal who got shot by a cop. On the "sadness of death" scale that's close down at the bottom for me. It isn't a "tragedy" for me, is all i'm saying.
Xdrive05
Member
Hey I'm all for a good stand up to your government story, but these guys were probably freeloading assholes who deserved to be taken down long before now.
At least I have yet to read a coherent defense of their actions, or even validation for their grievances. Regress them shits using the law. Not by fucking over our shared property as citizens. Assholes.
At least I have yet to read a coherent defense of their actions, or even validation for their grievances. Regress them shits using the law. Not by fucking over our shared property as citizens. Assholes.
Generalpsyduck
Banned
They should try them with treason
Atomic Playboy
Member
Thank God they finally did something, even if it did involve shots fired. But I really hope this signals the beginning of the end and we don't get treated to another 4 weeks of idiots occupying their fort and taking potshots at Federal Agents. This is all so absurd.
RPGCrazied
Member
Did anyone else just see CNN earlier? A reporter was there giving the story and one of the guys still there had to show off his gun. He was trying to say the man that died was killed with hands up(Don't believe that for a second), but CNN cut him off.
Scary people.
Scary people.
Honestly, what did these people expect to happen? Did they really think taking over a wildlife refuge gets their friends out of jail and the lands returned to them? There's only one constituency that has gets the benefit of the doubt and is allowed to takeover Federal lands for three weeks brandishing weapons the whole time going on media tours...
Feds need to end this occupation swiftly and then go after the Bundy family. If it's war they want then give it to them. Dismantle the ever loving fuck of their holdings which depend so much upon the government they hate. Force Bundy to pay what he owes the government. It's sickening he's gotten away with his actions thus far. Michelle Fiore needs to be thrown out of office for her support of them anyway.
Feds need to end this occupation swiftly and then go after the Bundy family. If it's war they want then give it to them. Dismantle the ever loving fuck of their holdings which depend so much upon the government they hate. Force Bundy to pay what he owes the government. It's sickening he's gotten away with his actions thus far. Michelle Fiore needs to be thrown out of office for her support of them anyway.
JetBlackPanda
Member
like I said earlier, even if his hands were up.. They seized a federal building. Kids have been shot by LEO with hands up for stealing and apparently that was justified.
this entire thing is a circus and I don't believe for one second his hands were up, fyi.
I don't think they can. Treason involves foriegn actors if I remember correctly.
Sedition is the charge. But, either way they're looking at a laundry list of felonies.
Gnome Scat
Member
Finally.
In regards to the guy dying with his hands up, i ran into this article that seems to refute it. They also have some surprising opinions that make them sound like hipster militants.
http://www.rawstory.com/2016/01/eye...-about-lavoy-finicum-dying-with-his-hands-up/
Note that I had never heard of this site previously and don't know how accurate it is.
http://www.rawstory.com/2016/01/eye...-about-lavoy-finicum-dying-with-his-hands-up/
Note that I had never heard of this site previously and don't know how accurate it is.
fixedpoint
Member
The hypocrisy is sad but not surprising. Finicum said he'd rather die than be arrested, so I guess we'll have to wait and see. Silly thing to die over in any case.
Elaugaufein
Member
Treason charges have been brought against non-foreign actors (e.g the Whiskey Rebellion and Civil War) but the US definition is deliberately severed from common law and specifies only a handful of offenses but they are pretty vague.
I do think you're right that these guys probably don't meet the definition given though. They probably didn't levy War against the United States* and they didn't give Aid or Comfort to its Enemies**.
*You might be able to argue this one but you'd probably be redefining war so much as to be meaningless.
** This is just flat out inapplicable unless you're going for a circular definition.
fixedpoint
Member
This article isn't a defense of their actions but more a look at the other side of the story (ranchers who feel that they are being trod on).
I don't know if I agree with all his points (certainly not that all ranchers would be totally good about being conservationists) but I do think it's good to look at at least another side of the story and he does raise some things to think about. The best solution is one that works for everyone, not just one side.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/post...you-dont-understand-about-the-bundy-standoff/
As for the bundy group trying to play off that they were peaceful, bullfuckingshit. I don't believe for one second that people holding up a building with guns are peaceful. And honestly their actions to me say they wanted to force a standoff. This is probably disappointing to them that it was so small (and quite probably that it wasn't so easy to make it look like the feds pushed things as I really doubt the police shot the guy as he was kneeling. If they were going to just outright murder him, why leave witnesses?). I don't believe for one second that they didn't want to push a standoff and try to make it look like they were the ones who were being persecuted.
When an armed group invades and seizes federal land, how is that not an act of war? Weird that people call armed occupation and inva sion of land a protest. Any state-sponsored force doing the same thing would be viewed as an act of war.
So, given that these people were committing an act of war/sedition, I'm not going to view being killed by LEOs while charging at them in the same way as I would a random street criminal. One is an enemy combatant engaged in war who refuses capture. The other is a simple criminal that should be apprehended and prosecuted if at all possible.
So, given that these people were committing an act of war/sedition, I'm not going to view being killed by LEOs while charging at them in the same way as I would a random street criminal. One is an enemy combatant engaged in war who refuses capture. The other is a simple criminal that should be apprehended and prosecuted if at all possible.
Mr. Giggles
Member
Oh no, it feels like things are going to escalate.
Was this recorded after the arrests
Rebel Leader
THE POWER OF BUTTERSCOTCH BOTTOMS
Stream live 1 hour ago I see
Mr. Giggles
Member
BattleMonkey
Member
They should just cut them off, let them starve
Elaugaufein
Member
I think you make a good point in the first 2 sentences but being backed by a state does add rather more force to almost anything. Imagine someone reading top secret documents for their own amusement compared to someone reading top secret documents to leak to a foreign government. Heck someone riling up a crowd for personal purposes is different to riling up a crowd for a foreign state.
captjohnboyd
Member
Jesus. The stupidity and desperate calls for violence and murder on display here boggle my mind. I guess if you're sitting in an echo chamber with other people who're also just hyping themselves up for the carnage it all makes sense.....these guys are really setting themselves up to have a huge showdown. I hope it ends up being defused peacefully so these people can look back on it with their lives and realize how stupid it was
I love that Mark guy. Apparently he's been getting flak for being released so quickly. This is his response:
"I've seen a thing now that I must be a fed or whatever. No. I'm just smarter than your average retarded bear. And a lot smarter than your average conspiracy theorist"
statham
Member
what is wrong with these people? what can't you do now that you could do 50 years ago that they are so mad about?
fixedpoint
Member
They've been digging trenches with that backhoe all morning. Dude with the long hair has a string of shotgun shells draped around his neck.
captjohnboyd
Member
Watching some of their other videos posted this morning are really hilarious/sad. To listen to them they actually believe, without a doubt, that all their countrymen are driving up there now to start a second "revolution". One guy is on the phone with his mom talking about how the next revolution is about to start today, they'll die free men protecting their country and they'll be "taking back our country"
The level of self delusion is epic
The level of self delusion is epic
Oh boy.
The Jackdog
Member
im coming in late can someone catch me up? they are digging out a wildlife refuge now instead of just occupying it?? wtf? why?
Rockin' Ranger
Member
"The American people better get here right now and fight for their country!"
Uh, is he asking me to go there and take up arms against him?
They've been digging trenches with that backhoe all morning. Dude with the long hair has a string of shotgun shells draped around his neck.
fuck these people. scum.
we need to stop this shit.
captjohnboyd
Member
"I'm sorry mom, my whole life has been leading up to this day"
"I didn't choose this it was chosen for me"
"We're taking this country back today"
"I believe God got this. Today is the start of the second revolution"
"Anyone out there who's trying to get up here if a Leo stops you KILL THEM!"
Good luck with that guys. Seems to me after watching it today that there buddy being killed was just what they wanted. Gives them an excuse to escalate things
Elaugaufein
Member
If that's recent, they are probably trying to fortify the place.
If its old, their entire purpose in occupying the place was to "reclaim" it from Federal holding for the use of (themselves and their friends) so they've been treating it like their property basically.
I'm guessing they creating defenses in case they are attacked. Trenches, moats. I guess they're preparing for a siege.
They have been destroying it from the beginning. Knocking down fences. Building shitty roads. Who knows what else.
captjohnboyd
Member
They just started another live stream
Possible nuke zone?
hahah.
i'm not in favor of the nuclear option here, though i think some people probably are..
smokeandmirrors
Banned
See a situation like this is why I have a hard time buying the "we need guns to keep the government in check" because if we truly did have a tyrannical government that didnt give a shit these idiots would've been drone striked out of existence.
also where's the dude on this forum that said he'd be a leader of a militia movement or whatever? now's your chance!
also where's the dude on this forum that said he'd be a leader of a militia movement or whatever? now's your chance!
fixedpoint
Member
The liberated a lot of stuff from the grounds and surrounding area I believe.
They're really trying to get law enforcement to raid aren't they? I can see no other reason for those kinds of statements than to try and use any eventual action against the government.
There is plenty of government property on the refuge. One of the reasons I have been critical of the feds letting them run wild from the get go. They have had free reign and have been destroying shit.
In case anyone is curious about where the bullshit story regarding Finicum on his knees came from, it came straight from the lying mouth of Ammon Bundy. He phoned his wife from the back of a police car, and told her that Finicum had been shot on his knees with his hands up, and she told Fiore who then spread it around like the dumb asshole she is.
I do appreciate that McConnell is at least attempting to get the real story out and slow down some of the fiercer morons who might do something stupid about it.
Also, for guys worried about the government murdering them, they sure are spending a lot of time outside with no cover. I suspect if the government wanted to murder them, federal snipers could have already put those folks in the ground.
I do appreciate that McConnell is at least attempting to get the real story out and slow down some of the fiercer morons who might do something stupid about it.
Also, for guys worried about the government murdering them, they sure are spending a lot of time outside with no cover. I suspect if the government wanted to murder them, federal snipers could have already put those folks in the ground.
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