E still does physical damage and the rest of her kit magic.
Cinderhulk on Rek Sai works surprisingly well btw.
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League of Legends |OT9| Stealing Abilities From Inferior MOBAs since 2009
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Cinderhulk on Rek Sai works surprisingly well btw.
Stone Ocean
Member
I don't think Riot should nerf the tankiness of tanks. I mean that's their job, that's what they should do well, they're meant to be brick walls and that's ok. The problem is when those brick walls are filled with spikes and not only I can't kill them I'll likely die trying even though I'm a glass cannon.
I think it's time Thornmail went poof
Yeah, there's no counterplay to a high damage/high CC tank. It's really not even mildly fun once you get to the late game against them. And even if you get out of range of their AA, someone like Garen just has an outright execute ability...so fun!
Thornmail is such a bad item. If tanks are going to rule the day, you can't punish people for hitting them.
Garen doesn't even have a decent gapcloser, his execute does magic damage and has 400 range. :d
His passive combined with something like Warmogs and Spirit Visage is funny though, but imo not really a champ who is problematic.
Orochinagis
Member
Master skin Lux.
It's not fun to play against. You can't kill him and he will eventually get to you because there's so much CC in the game right now (supports, mages with slows/stuns, Righteous Glory, junglers with insane mobility, etc.). He will get on top of you with his Q and the team's CC and then never die. I just singled him out due to the whole execute mechanic, which is garbage for a tank, but he's just one of the many super unfun champs to play against right now.
lol you don't provoke the zkylewd
you better learn dat
probably true, thornmail had a place when tanks were unable to deal the damage they need to but with gromp buff, sunfire on junglers and all the health scaling and crap it's probably not that needed anymore
maybe not in the current state of its passive, i do think a 100 armor item is cool for the game
Yeah I like the tank meta but I can't stand gromp + thornmail.
I only did a couple games with her but Warrior-Cleaver into full tank felt really strong. Spellblade was nice but the armor shred is just too good to pass up.
I only did a couple games with her but Warrior-Cleaver into full tank felt really strong. Spellblade was nice but the armor shred is just too good to pass up.
i don't think any of what you're saying is true haha
it's more like a redesign but it looks super cool!
Black Cleaver alone will be enough, if you are feeling fed, then use a sheen too, but not further than that. Rest of the items are usual tanky stuff.
Trinity is pretty core on Vi though. She benefits a lot from all those stats and passives. I see most people go Trinity into tank. Dnno where the new BC will fit in though.
I could see settling for BC if you're behind and need stats quickly. TF is the standard though, sure.
Stone Ocean
Member
BC was never core on Vi. It's always been a greedy item and Warrior made it pretty unnecessary. Sheen passive is more important to her than the Phage passive.
No idea about new BC tho. It'll depend wether 40 AD plus the shred is worth losing Spellblade which I doubt it is because if you didn't kill what you were aiming at in 6 hits you failed your job.
Exactly. Thornmail is the type of item Riot should hate, it doubles down on punishing things you have to do. Your punishment for hitting a tank is having to hit a tank, making not attacking anything a better idea than attacking is stupid.
to me trinity force is like a dumb item for a jungler unless they're fed because of how silly expensive it is
it's really good stats but vis i see usually get like warrior into tank or maybe brutalizer since it's so difficult to get that amount of money as a jungler i think. and i always felt brutalizer was kind of awkward since warrior...
i do think that maybe like getting the early phage might be nice? probably like warrior phage tank and finishing black cleaver at some point
i dunno much about jungler items
with bjork regen that may no longer be the case tho?
anyone tried it yet?
Stone Ocean
Member
Trinity is a pretty easy buy because all the components are cheap. Depends on the jungler but Vi can grab Phage components, a full phage or a full Sheen before finishing it.
Sheen is a must on Vi. Burst is her thing
Stone Ocean
Member
It's a lot easier to justify 100 armor when you have items that shit out HP
Baby's first effective health pool
Baby's first effective health pool
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Quas, huh? Good, good. Now they have to release more skins for him. Like...Hulk Swain.
Thornmail existed in a time where you couldn't get like 3000 health by the 25 minute mark though
Stone Ocean
Member
25 minutes lol
Try 15
Try 15
Tizoc
Member
Thornmail's mainly good if opposing team has Auto attack reliant champs
Oh shit your right, yeah Armor Pen Jungle item+Trinity wa her main offensive items, dunno why Black Cleaver came up.
...prob. cuz I've been getting her a lot on aram and I would go BC+Trinity and tank @_@
Oh shit your right, yeah Armor Pen Jungle item+Trinity wa her main offensive items, dunno why Black Cleaver came up.
...prob. cuz I've been getting her a lot on aram and I would go BC+Trinity and tank @_@
then thornmail isn't the real problem
there are a lot of problems with various different ways of fixing them/breaking them further
right now it's fairly cheap to get very tanky as compared to fairly expensive to become a damage threat for most adc's
but with the gold in the current jungle, tank items almost have to be somewhat inexpensive (thornmail and frozen heart as an example). If a thornmail was 3200g and a frozen heart 3000/3200, tanks wouldn't exist. it's a fundamental economic problem right now.
however, if they increased the gold gain in the jungle and the cost of tank items at the same time then power spikes would be all over the place for a lot of champions, and carry junglers might creep back in as they could easily afford the inexpensive damage items they require (brutalizer/lw/tiamat) to just rek squishies.
i'm kind of just stream of consciousnessing this because i don't have a real solution to the problem other than a general cinderhulk rework.
i mean, the thing is, things exist in metas and while something itself might've been ok in another meta it's just not great here and it's up to balance whether it's best to shift the meta to somewhere that's good for the item or shift the item towards somewhere that's good for the meta
usually riot goes with the latter since it's a lot simpler, leaving the meta changes for the big preseason patches
I agree, the issue is deeper than just thornmail (I'm mainly frustrated because I've been playing a lot of AD carries lately). I dunno how to balance it either. Though I'm positive I'd rather have this tanky meta than what we had before.
This is a big reason why I want that 25% health bonus significantly reduced or gone from Cinderhulk. That's an insane amount of gold efficiency. Last season, the 2nd iteration of SotAG had the same health bonus passive (or was it 20%?) and that wasn't that big of a deal because Junglers didn't have access to enough to gold to really push that passive. Warmog's with Cinderhulk is ~500g in free health, Righteous Glory is ~400g, etc. It's fucking stupid.
Gimme flat health, even less if necessary, but a similar damage passive over the %health bonus. Hell, rework the logic so that it only stacks up when you're taking damage, or some such as opposed to stacking "when in combat" because that shit keeps giving me free stacks. Why not have the max damage scale with time (like Rod of Ages) instead of by level to better control the curve.
Jeff-DSA said:
I'm not going to specifically defend the current state of Thornmail, but to play devil's advocate being unable to punish a ranged ADC wailing away at you from range isn't any better.
I reserve judgement on Thornmail until after the results of BotRK buff start coming in. My gut is that the concept of Thornmail is fine, but the raw numbers or even the current implementation (i.e. reflects damage before resists) needs to change.
tbh i think one avenue to explore is that instead of a flat % increase of HP the moment you buy it, have it scale over time by 5% increments or something. it won't offer an immediate boon (but it'll still have one), while offering tanks what tanks need when it comes to late game.
winning 4v5 feels so good
http://matchhistory.euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/EUW1/2089365223/215392257?tab=overview
http://matchhistory.euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/EUW1/2089365223/215392257?tab=overview
Stone Ocean
Member
The thing with "punishing the ranged carry" is that the fact that the ranged carry is having to hit you is already punishment enough, you're keeping damage off your team by being the frontline you're supposed to be, you're doing the job you picked the tank to do.
How about removing the damage reflect altogether and making Thornmail apply a short Grievous Wounds debuff? That way it can act as the LS-supressor it's supposed to be without actually killing ADCs.
How about removing the damage reflect altogether and making Thornmail apply a short Grievous Wounds debuff? That way it can act as the LS-supressor it's supposed to be without actually killing ADCs.
When an ADC is hitting a tank it's because he's the highest priority target within range that won't compromise his positioning. You aren't punishing the ADC if he's hitting the only target he can reasonably hit.
Just throwing this out there, but give Thornmail and Odyn's Veil like active. I get hit, I build stacks. On activate I expend whatever stacks I have for a PBAoE nuke. You can keep your distance from me, you're good, I close the gap and get my hands on you, it's gonna hurt. Or conversely I can choose to expend the stacks to kill enemy champions attacking my own carries.
I can think of lots of situations where the grevious wounds debuff would be irrelevant (for example at the start of a fight, tank will be hit by an ADC who's at full health anyways)
Neko said:
I dunno, maybe? You still get the same result late game for the tank but tanks' tankiness doesn't seem to be as much an issue once the carry gets IE->PD->LW or another similar combo, so maybe it gives the carries more of chance to reach that point?
It was more like brutalizer and trinity force. And that was kind of rare. Generally it was jungle item into tank. But evidently your games involve supports going full ap carry mode.
Lone_Prodigy
Member
Give Thornmail the Dota treatment: activate to return damage.
Stone Ocean
Member
Windows of opportunity, I guess?
Ghost is Bad
Banned
I think that's a bit silly though. If someone wants to go glass cannon, they should shatter like glass if they try to do stuff against properly itemized opponents. If enemies need to itemize, maybe it's time for ADCs to do it as well.
Get some lifesteal, magic resist, health, etc. up in here.Wasn't thornmail almost universally mocked at one point? I'm glad that it's kind of useful now, along with the tank meta.
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