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[Stone Ocean]

Would you be fine with removing all the damage a tank does and replacing it with 5-15 seconds of hard CC they can apply at any time? Cause knowing Riot, if they removed or nerfed a tanks damage, then they would 'compensate' in other areas.

Cause I think Tanks are in a fine position. CC the one charging for your carry, get rid of his buddies, and then deal with the tank if he isn't running away. Dunno why that's so hard to grasp.

As a matter of fact yes, yes I would. Never thought I'd say this but Leona is the best actual tank design in this game right now. I'd say Sion too if he wasn't so overtuned.

If tanks were fine they would not be getting nerfed multiple patches in a row with Botrk getting buffed and a new tank buster item being made.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

As a matter of fact yes, yes I would. Never thought I'd say this but Leona is the best actual tank design in this game right now followed by Sion.

If tanks were fine they would not be getting nerfed multiple patches in a row

Riot hates long CC tho its antifun. Or something.

And tanks getting nerfed constantly reminds me when they would constantly nerf Lee Sin. Hes ok. And Leona only works as a support tank. I wouldnt call her a true tank, you can just ignore her and carry along your day. Remember, the philosophy behind tanks is to be a threat while not dying immediately.

And right now, tanks seem to fill that threat quota.

 

[jerd]

They fill it three or four times over though

 

[Stone Ocean]

If you think multiple CC skills on a single digit cooldown isn't threatening enough then you have never played a squishy champion in your life.

Tanks aren't designed to be top priority hard to kill threats, they are designed to be threats you can't ignore but is forced to because there are other priorities. They jump at the enemy team to disrupt and CC, not to kill.

You keep saying how you hate bruiser metas but you want tanks to be bruisers. It makes no sense.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

If you think multiple CC skills on a single digit cooldown isn't threatening enough then you have never played a squishy champion in your life.

Ive played thousands of games over, I have played the majority of champions that the counter for those have reached double digits, with a good amount of champions in the triple digit section. Including squishies. And yeah, I can say with confidence that Leona is a good support tank that can initiate and stun here and there. But in a teamfight, shes not all that threatening and can be ignored.

But please, assume that Ive never played a squishy champion before. My League name is the same as here, feel free to parse it over.

And no, I never said I wanted tanks to be bruisers. I have said I wanted tanks to fit into the meta, which they currently do. But if you want to put words into my mouth, then put some ice cream on them.

 

[Stone Ocean]

I wish I could play this game where I get to ignore 2 seconds of CC on a 5 second cooldown, it sounds fun.

Also skimming through your profile I see you have played almost nothing but tanky champions over ranked 5 seasons so I'm not sure whats that supposed to prove.

And no, I never said I wanted tanks to be bruisers. I have said I wanted tanks to fit into the meta, which they currently do. But if you want to put words into my mouth, then put some ice cream on them.

You want tanks to be big damage threats that can't be ignored while being hard to kill. Last I checked that's what a bruiser is.

 

[jerd]

Ive played thousands of games over, I have played the majority of champions that the counter for those have reached double digits, with a good amount of champions in the triple digit section. Including squishies. And yeah, I can say with confidence that Leona is a good support tank that can initiate and stun here and there. But in a teamfight, shes not all that threatening and can be ignored.

But please, assume that Ive never played a squishy champion before. My League name is the same as here, feel free to parse it over.

And no, I never said I wanted tanks to be bruisers. I have said I wanted tanks to fit into the meta, which they currently do. But if you want to put words into my mouth, then put some ice cream on them.

It sounds like what you want is unpeelable damage dealing cc gods. Leona is a good tank. She has both great initiation and good peel. She doesn't do damage because you shouldn't be able to put out 30k damage in a game and soak multiple times that, something that is relatively easy to do right now. It really comes down to philosophy I guess. If you think that tanks should be able to out duel carries and bruisers then what is the point of having bruisers at all? Tanks already fulfill that role while having great cc

 

[BreezyLimbo]

I wish I could play this game where I get to ignore 2 seconds of CC on a 5 second cooldown, it sounds fun.

You want tanks to be big damage threats that can't be ignored while being hard to kill. Last I checked that's what a bruiser is.

I wish you could have competent teams that peeled off the CCers.

Again, either you misread or are putting words into my mouth. I want tanks to be threats. As they are against squishies. Bruisers have, or had, the problem of not only dealing more damage than tanks, but having a huge amount of surviabilty to go along with it. Whereas before bruisers made tanks obsolete because of this, now tanks have a fighting chance. Which is as it should be. Now bruisers can deal more damage than a tank, whilst having more survivabilty than an assassin, and tanks deal low to moderatw damage(which for a glass cannon means theyre screwed) whilst having high survivability.

Back in the day I always said that as a glass cannon, you always wanna go pure offense. Because even if you build tanky, the second an opponent looks towards your direction, your dead. Thats the curse of glass cannons. They can deal it but not take it.

It sounds like what you want is unpeelable damage dealing cc gods. Leona is a good tank. She has both great initiation and good peel. She doesn't do damage because you shouldn't be able to put out 30k damage in a game and soak multiple times that, something that is relatively easy to do right now. It really comes down to philosophy I guess. If you think that tanks should be able to out duel carries and bruisers then what is the point of having bruisers at all? Tanks already fulfill that role while having great cc

Ask Riot what the role of a bruiser is. This game never needed bruisers, but with Riots great foresight we saw the likes of Ren or Irelia or Jax picked constantly because they outclassed tanks for a long time. Now that tanks are rightfully on top, you have the half way role, bruisers becoming obsolete. Because in being a Jack of Offense and Defence, they excel at neither as they should. If you want it to revert to the bruiser meta...good lord thatd be boring as sand. Itd be back to Lee, Irelia, and Renekton again.

 

[Stone Ocean]

Peel the CCer? But I thought I could just ignore them because they don't have strong DPS! Are you telling me that Leona is *gasp* A THREAT?!

Tanks deal low to moderate damage right now, in this patch. You actually think that

Allrighty then, I'll see myself out of this discussion

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Peel the CCer? But I thought I could just ignore them!

Tanks deal low to moderate damage right now, in this patch. You actually think that

Allrighty then, I'll see myself out of this discussion

If you want to cherry pick a post and read what you want to read, well then....thats not my problem, is it? Just like an ADC dying first isnt the itemizations problem, its the teams for failure of peeling. Funny how this conversation went.

 

[Ghost is Bad]

Maokai does not deal moderate damage. Sej does not deal moderate damage. Sion does not deal moderate damage. Any champ that can deal double digit %hp is not a "moderate" damage dealer. You are failing to understand that the jungle item cinderhulk makes Tanks deal high amounts of AoE damage on top of giving a massive defensive steroid while the other tanks are so overtuned in their damage that they can simply build full defensive items and still deal 30k damage a game. That is not fair to anyone that has to fight them at equal gold. This isn't DOTA where defense and offense usually go together because you can get both types of stats from building AGI or Strength or INT. You might think it's ok that a champ like Sej can oneshot carries 1v1 withno offensive items. I think it's fucking dumb.

 

[V_Arnold]

Its Stone Ocean, though, so you might want to take that into consideration.

Leona is not a threat for her damage.
She is a threat for her cc. The fact that she also takes off 25-50% of your health while she is playing the separation game with you is a completely different matter. Your team not surviving without your dps and THEN them coming for you is the real threat. That is why unkillable tanks are a problem, not because of Sunfire/Cinder's damage.

 

[Stone Ocean]

I'm not cherry picking anything. Your post has literally two arguments, tanks damage is low and fine and tanks with no damage can be ignored. Both are factually wrong and you even contradict yourself.

"Just peel" is the new "just dodge the spears" it seems

 

[V_Arnold]

It is indeed true though that tanks should be *still* vulnerable if left to do things alone. So in our hypotethical, a Leona on an ADC should absolutely die to a well-geared ADC. Leona alone should not survive that amount of dps, no matter how tanky she is. Because if she does, suddenly she alone counters the highest sustained damage-dealer in the game without any real threat to her.

And thus the "how many tanks your team has"-meta has been born

 

[Stone Ocean]

It is indeed true though that tanks should be *still* vulnerable if left to do things alone. So in our hypotethical, a Leona on an ADC should absolutely die to a well-geared ADC. Leona alone should not survive that amount of dps, no matter how tanky she is. Because if she does, suddenly she alone counters the highest sustained damage-dealer in the game without any real threat to her.

And thus the "how many tanks your team has"-meta has been born

Don't treat me like Deadnames then agree with me lol

 

[Ghost is Bad]

And how fucking condescending can you be? Just peel? You think I don't know that? Here's a newsflash, you can't use abilities when you're CC'd. I have one escape on most DPS champs that isn't flash. I have 1 support who has to deal with 2, maybe even 3 4k hp supertanks that shit out 5k damage vs anyone that dares to autoattack them. Who the fuck do you think you are telling us to "just peel?"

I think tanks are fine. What's not fine is giving tanks an item that gives them Jax level damage while simultaneously making them even harder to kill.

Please explain your answer to that.

 

[subtles]

I wanted to see Pray's Ezreal. :/

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Maokai does not deal moderate damage. Sej does not deal moderate damage. Sion does not deal moderate damage. Any champ that can deal double digit %hp is not a "moderate" damage dealer. You are failing to understand that the jungle item cinderhulk makes Tanks deal high amounts of AoE damage on top of giving a massive defensive steroid while the other tanks are so overtuned in their damage that they can simply build full defensive items and still deal 30k damage a game. That is not fair to anyone that has to fight them at equal gold. This isn't DOTA where defense and offense usually go together because you can get both types of stats from building AGI or Strength or INT. You might think it's ok that a champ like Sej can oneshot carries 1v1 withno offensive items. I think it's fucking dumb.

Any tank can and should be anle to kill a squishy with little to no problem. Because a squishy should die by being breathed on. Thats the whole point of having a team. Its a team game. Everyone has a role. Failure to execute this role will surprisingly cause you to lose. If a team cant protect their squishies...whos fault is it?

I'm not cherry picking anything. Your post has literally two arguments, tanks damage is low and fine and tanks with no damage can be ignored. Both are factually wrong and you even contradict yourself.

"Just peel" is the new "just dodge the spears" it seems

Pit a tank against another tank. Its like watching marshmallows collide. Pit a tank against a bruiser. The tank will suffer heavy damage, and depending on the bruiser, if they have self regen for example, which bruisers tend to build, the bruiser will win. Pit a tank against a squishy, and the squishy should always die.

Thats how it is in 1v1 scenarios. Thats how it should be. You take offense to this though, and forget that its a team game. Balls to the ADC who cant go Rambo anymore, I wont shed a tear.

Also, cinderhulk was nerfed recently.

 

[Stone Ocean]

Bruisers beat tanks? Did you miss the past year of top lane or something?

I spent 15k gold on damage. You spent 10k gold on defenses. It takes me forever to kill you as it should but why the fuck does that mean you also get to kill me? What is the point of offensives items if defenses just win?

And Cinderhulk lost 50 HP. Thats as meaningful as removing 5 AD from Warrior in the bruiser meta

 

[Ghost is Bad]

You're treating me like I'm some downs syndrome retard that doesn't know how this game works when your only response to the overwhelming zoning and teamfight damage of tanks is "just peel." Fuck off.

Yeah this is a team game. I'm a god damn support main and I'd like to think I'm pretty good at what I do but the bottom line is that tanks are too strong and the team with a stronger tank, not the one with better positioning that you keep fucking talking about is the one who wins. Because the item power difference at 4k gold between a carry and a tank is so high, you can literally only have 1 lane ahead in top and still dominate fights because your relative power is so much higher compared to theirs at 1 item. This is why people are complaining. Not because we're shit at this game like you keep implying. Keep your asshole attitude to yourself.

 

[Stone Ocean]

"Just have your team do damage while you tank and CC the enemy carries"

Doesn't sound as catchy, too big for a reddit meme

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Bruisers beat tanks? Did you miss the past year of top lane or something?

I spent 15k gold on damage. You spent 10k gold on defenses. It takes me forever to kill you as it should but why the fuck does that mean you also get to kill me? What is the point of offensives items if defenses just win?

And Cinderhulk lost 50 HP. Thats as meaningful as removing 5 AD from Warrior in the bruiser meta

Didnt they take away the increasing damage component of cinderhulk? And youd be correct, in a vacuum where its 1v1, a tank would win every time. But what Im trying to stress is that it shouldnt be treated like a vacuum, its a team game. Its why when someone goes in all chat "1v1 me bro" I always respond or say "its a team game, 1v1 doesnt prove anything."

You're treating me like I'm some downs syndrome retard that doesn't know how this game works when your only response to the overwhelming zoning and teamfight damage of tanks is "just peel." Fuck off.

Yeah this is a team game. I'm a god damn support main and I'd like to think I'm pretty good at what I do but the bottom line is that tanks are too strong and the team with a stronger tank, not the one with better positioning that you keep fucking talking about is the one who wins. Because the item power difference at 4k gold between a carry and a tank is so high, you can literally only have 1 lane ahead in top and still dominate fights because your relative power is so much higher compared to theirs at 1 item. This is why people are complaining. Not because we're shit at this game like you keep implying. Keep your asshole attitude to yourself.

I stopped responding to you because I felt you were taking this personally. Its a discussion, there are going to be disagreements. Relax.

 

[jerd]

Didnt they take away the increasing damage component of cinderhulk? And youd be correct, in a vacuum where its 1v1, a tank would win every time. But what Im trying to stress is that it shouldnt be treated like a vacuum, its a team game. Its why when someone goes in all chat "1v1 me bro" I always respond or say "its a team game, 1v1 doesnt prove anything."

So in your opinion tanks SHOULD be able to 1v1 anyone? I mean it's just a difference in desired game philosophy at that point then, but yours is insane lol

 

[BreezyLimbo]

So in your opinion tanks SHOULD be able to 1v1 anyone? I mean it's just a difference in desired game philosophy at that point then, but yours is insane lol

Depends on the tank. Depends on the match up. I hesitated to write that statement because there are no absolute variables in match ups, but they are being treated as absolute. Its why Im arguing that in the end its a team game and how someone does or does not, isnt because the items force those outcomes, but a combination of the team and the play of the game itself. The champions pucked may have a kit based around ehat one wants to achieve, ie sejuani with an aoe stun, charge, and hp% damage. It is an overloaded kit, but Riot seems to be hesitant to nerf her. Because I guess to them she either has her current kit or becomes useless like before her remake.

 

[V_Arnold]

Depends on the tank. Depends on the match up. I hesitated to write that statement because there are no absolute variables in match ups, but they are being treated as absolute. Its why Im arguing that in the end its a team game and how someone does or does not, isnt because the items force those outcomes, but a combination of the team and the play of the game itself.

Does not matter though, with tanks having HIGH damage in a long fight, many cc and all defense, LoL can be about "how many tanks you have".

I would like to see you dismiss or dismantle that statement, please. Lets assume no fedness, both teams did equally well. One team has 3 tanks, other has one or two.

Do you really think that it is a balanced situation?

 

[Stone Ocean]

Didnt they take away the increasing damage component of cinderhulk? And youd be correct, in a vacuum where its 1v1, a tank would win every time. But what Im trying to stress is that it shouldnt be treated like a vacuum, its a team game. Its why when someone goes in all chat "1v1 me bro" I always respond or say "its a team game, 1v1 doesnt prove anything."

You completely ignored my question. It's a team game, why do tanks get to be the role that doesn't die AND kill priority targets AND disrupt AND initiate while spending less gold than anyone else? Why is 100% of the burden on the enemy team to play around tanks instead of your team having to take advantage of the openings you provide, like a team game? ADCs and mages kill everything but have trouble with anything up their personal space, bruisers and assassins kill squishies but have trouble with tanks and supports, supports dont kill anything but are good against everything, meanwhile tanks get to have their cake, eat it, digest it, shit it on a bowl with "Fido" written in it and then grab the squishies and slam their faces into the bowl until it breaks then gouge their eyes with one of the shards and pour the feces inside the cavities
How does that even remotely make sense?

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Does not matter though, with tanks having HIGH damage in a long fight, many cc and all defense, LoL can be about "how many tanks you have".

I would like to see you dismiss or dismantle that statement, please. Lets assume no fedness, both teams did equally well. One team has 3 tanks, other has one or two.

Do you really think that it is a balanced situation?

What are the champions? Who got the most dragons? Who got outplayed early on?

Saying one team has x this or x that isnt a really good hypothetical. A team can have 3 tanks and perform horribly and lose, or they could outplay the enemy team constantly and win.

So you ask if its a balanced situation from the hypothetical you gave me... So my response is there isnt enough information to parse the hypothetical and give a solid response.

 

[V_Arnold]

Lets specify. Team A has Sion jungle, Maokai top, Leona sup.
Team B has Blitz sup, Jax top, Nidalee jung.

No matter how, once they reach the endgame, it wont matter what the mid/adc roles are, beucase they alone are irrelevant on taking down ONE of the tanks, let alone three of them.

You are already looking for answers outside team compositions. Again: no team fed the other one. You can say it is a 20 kill - 20 kill situation, divided evenly. Both team took, say, 3 dragons. Does not matter.

In real life, scales can be tipped even further by that point, but that is *not* what I want to argue.

Edit: What your problem seems to be ("problem") is that you truly believe that it was not because of team composition, it has to be because one team made a mistake. It is not necessarily the case, which is what this whole argument is about.

Unless you count champion select menu's tank preference as "they outplayed you", to which I can say "ooookay, case closed".

 

[BreezyLimbo]

You completely ignored my question. It's a team game, why do tanks get to be the role that doesn't die AND kill priority targets AND disrupt AND initiate while spending less gold than anyone else? Why is 100% of the burden on the enemy team to play around tanks instead of your team having to take advantage of the openings you provide, like a team game? ADCs and mages kill everything but have trouble with anything up their personal space, bruisers and assassins kill squishies but have trouble with tanks and supports, supports dont kill anything but are good against everything, meanwhile tanks get to have their cake, eat it, digest it, shit it on a bowl with "Fido" written in it and then grab the squishies and slam their faces into the bowl until it breaks then gouge their eyes with one of the shards and pour the feces inside the cavities
How does that even remotely make sense?

Again...you act like an opposing team is going to bend over for the tank. You act like someone playing a tank will play so perfectly theyll avoid all attempts at being CCed, somehow cause squishies to standstill as a tank charges at them, be able to kill them from 100% to 0 with no difficulty...in a vacuum as you present it, you'd be correct. But match ups in team games dont happen in a vacuum. Your hypothetical is disingenious at best.

 

[Stone Ocean]

I'll just CC the Sejuani ult
Or the Amumu with Banshee's
Or the CC immune Sion
Or the Hecarim with Homeguards that also is CC immune mid ult
Or the entire team charging behind a Maokai that used Righteous Glory and is about to flash and use his instant targeted root that renders him untargetable for the duration

Just peel the pinks and stun the spears

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Lets specify. Team A has Sion jungle, Maokai top, Leona sup.
Team B has Blitz sup, Jax top, Nidalee jung.

No matter how, once they reach the endgame, it wont matter what the mid/adc roles are, beucase they alone are irrelevant on taking down ONE of the tanks, let alone three of them.

You are already looking for answers outside team compositions. Again: no team fed the other one. You can say it is a 20 kill - 20 kill situation, divided evenly. Both team took, say, 3 dragons. Does not matter.

In real life, scales can be tipped even further by that point, but that is *not* what I want to argue.

Edit: What your problem seems to be ("problem") is that you truly believe that it was not because of team composition, it has to be because one team made a mistake. It is not necessarily the case, which is what this whole argument is about.

Unless you count champion select menu's tank preference as "they outplayed you", to which I can say "ooookay, case closed".

Again, Im supposed to treat the arguments you're giving me as not being in a vacuum? And Im the one with the problem? Sorry to disappoint, Im not absolutist. When it comes to balancing, the worst thing you can do is treat something in a vacuum and then say "this is going to happen the same way every time! I have proof! I treated it in a vacuum!"

To put it bluntly, Tanks=/=Victory. Skill=Victory.

 

[Stone Ocean]

Considering 3 out of the top 5 win rates in solo Q are tanks, I'll go with tanks > skill

 

[jerd]

Again, Im supposed to treat the arguments you're giving me as not being in a vacuum? And Im the one with the problem? Sorry to disappoint, Im not absolutist. When it comes to balancing, the worst thing you can do is treat something in a vacuum and then say "this is going to happen the same way every time! I have proof! I treated it in a vacuum!"

To put it bluntly, Tanks=/=Victory. Skill=Victory.

But it takes significantly more skill to overcome the advantage that tanks enter the game with, but you seem to want to argue something completely different

 

[Ghost is Bad]

I take it personally when someone insinuates im a shitter while preaching something that inherently makes 0 sense. You pretend that you've got the perfect answer to every rebuttal people throw at you ignoring the fundamental arguments they make in favor of trying to paint them as imbeciles for thinking your PoV was wrong. As soon as someone gives an argument you can't argue with, you resort to excuses and nonanswers in order to dodge the issue. I'm a fucking awful person. But I have never once pretended that I know shit I don't and then get passive aggressive towards people that are trying to give you an explanation on why you have your facts wrong. Stop being an asshole to people that actually took time to address your comments and maybe people won't be so pissed off at you.

 

[Stone Ocean]

Also this vaccuum hipothetical argument thing is stupid

We have months of solo Q and competitive play to draw experience from. We are not complaining about something that was introduced a week ago.

 

[V_Arnold]

Again, Im supposed to treat the arguments you're giving me as not being in a vacuum? And Im the one with the problem? Sorry to disappoint, Im not absolutist. When it comes to balancing, the worst thing you can do is treat something in a vacuum and then say "this is going to happen the same way every time! I have proof! I treated it in a vacuum!"

To put it bluntly, Tanks=/=Victory. Skill=Victory.

Do you know what happens when you balance through "eh, the other player just have to work harder to overcome this"? StarCraft II's balance mistakes happen.

Just "outplay them" is a good advice if you are advising for similar champions. Mirror matchups. Similar roles. And once you meet the enemy that DOES NOT make mistakes, him just winning fights cant always be considered "eh, he outplayed you". Unless you do not want to look into the problems.

Yeah, I understand your point of view, but I think it has a huge flaw. It assumes that EVERY win/loss has outplays behind it, not just champion differences. That is absolutist alright.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

But it takes significantly more skill to overcome the advantage that tanks enter the game with, but you seem to want to argue something completely different

There we go. Thats what I wanted to hear. Tanks do have a different set of advantages for performing their role. In this case, defensive stats. They have to deal some modicum of damage, all characters do. But tanks have those natural defenses.

So then it becomes a gaming of banning strong champions. It becomes a game of countering. Of picking the right rune page. Some champions have advantages others do not. They have a Sion, so maybe Ill pick graves for his passive and dash, or tristana for her range and jump.

After picking teams, it stops being about the potential of the picks, but it comes down to the skill of the team. If both teams are evenly matched, 1:1, than it comes to positioning and who can outplay who first.

Do you know what happens when you balance through "eh, the other player just have to work harder to overcome this"? StarCraft II's balance mistakes happen.

Just "outplay them" is a good advice if you are advising for similar champions. Mirror matchups. Similar roles. And once you meet the enemy that DOES NOT make mistakes, him just winning fights cant always be considered "eh, he outplayed you". Unless you do not want to look into the problems.

Yeah, I understand your point of view, but I think it has a huge flaw. It assumes that EVERY win/loss has outplays behind it, not just champion differences. That is absolutist alright.

I'll give you an example. Ive seen plent of pro match ups of Ziggs vs. kass in mid. In theory a good ziggs can prevent a kass from farming and will push them back consistently. And this happens. But Ziggs doesnt always end up winning, sometimes Kassadin will push ahead either because of this or that. My point is, Yes, champion differences are important, but its not the end all answer to a match up.

 

[V_Arnold]

So you basically think that what we argue does not exist, tanks did not became unnaturally strong lately. Gotcha.
Just as vanilla reapers were not *really* unfair towards zerg, they just needed to work five times harder.

 

[Stone Ocean]

They have a Sion, I can pick Graves and do no damage or I can pick Trist and do no damage or I can pick Vayne and do damage but oh wait the enemy picked Cait and she counters every single one of these ADCs
You definitely have no idea of how bot lane works

*a few months ago*
Buff tanks? Just have your team hard leash for you, losing level 2 so you don't lose HP and then when the enemy Reksai invades you at red while you have 30% HP just tell your top lane to stop what they are doing and come give the enemy jungler a double

Bruisers are fine, they are supposed to kill tanks! Just peel them later because teamwork

 

[Terbinator]

I don't even know what's going on.

 

[jerd]

There we go. Thats what I wanted to hear. Tanks do have a different set of advantages for performing their role. In this case, defensive stats. They have to deal some modicum of damage, all characters do. But tanks have those natural defenses.

So then it becomes a gaming of banning strong champions. It becomes a game of countering. Of picking the right rune page. Some champions have advantages others do not. They have a Sion, so maybe Ill pick graves for his passive and dash, or tristana for her range and jump.

After picking teams, it stops being about the potential of the picks, but it comes down to the skill of the team. If both teams are evenly matched, 1:1, than it comes to positioning and who can outplay who first.



I'll give you an example. Ive seen plent of pro match ups of Ziggs vs. kass in mid. In theory a good ziggs can prevent a kass from farming and will push them back consistently. And this happens. But Ziggs doesnt always end up winning, sometimes Kassadin will push ahead either because of this or that. My point is, Yes, champion differences are important, but its not the end all answer to a match up.

I honestly don't know if you're misinterpreting what I'm saying or just ignoring it. Tanks don't have a "different set of advantages" right now, they have all of the advantages. Sure you can win a game with one tank and a fighter and 3 squishies, but you'll have to play at a level far above a tankier comp. That's not how it should be. You shouldn't have to outplay a team by a mile to barely beat them.

 

[Stone Ocean]

Rock paper scissors is a very balanced game as long as you ban rock and always pick scissors
Also in this version of rock paper scissors rock beats paper by using it as toilet paper

Get outplayed

 

[Crab Milk Mickey]

Carry players having a hard life in League. How precious.

A lot of narrowminded whining going on here about balance changes... though that isn't exactly new in this thread.

 

[jerd]

Carry players having a hard life in League. How precious.

A lot of narrowminded whining going on here about balance changes... though that isn't exactly new in this thread.

Yeah...

It's a jungle item that's so good it has spilled over into top lane even though half of the item is worthless in lane. Plus they're gutting its damage next patch. Idk how you can say it's not overturned.

Also, I've been a jungle main since I started playing and have played tanky champs regardless of meta. I'm just also realistic.

Also, you're the first one to post without actually at least trying to back up your opinion. You should probably tell us what is so narrow minded about our opinions instead of just shit posting

 

[Terbinator]

I'd much rather have a "tank meta" than an assassin one. I'm not saying it should have to be one or the other, but it's a lot easier to build around tanks both in-game and in champ select - it's just most people don't.

 

[Stone Ocean]

If you have any solutions for ADCs to deal with hypertanks outside of champ select - because that would be stupid -and lolpeel feel free to share with the class

Otherwise you can keep the driveby jabs to yourself

 

[jerd]

I honestly think that after ch's damage is toned down everything will be a lot more even. I think thematically the ramping damage was great and added a little bit of interaction, it was just way too much damage on a cheap massive scaling item

Warrior enchant is really good, there's just no point building it rn when ch is so much better

 

[Stone Ocean]

I'd much rather have a "tank meta" than an assassin one. I'm not saying it should have to be one or the other, but it's a lot easier to build around tanks both in-game and in champ select - it's just most people don't.

I want tanks to remain the meta, I just want them to stop shitting damage.

I'd much rather stuff see stuff like Sejuani coming out of the fog of war than a Vi with a fully charged Q

 

[Terbinator]

If you have any solutions for ADCs to deal with hypertanks outside of champ select - because that would be stupid -and lolpeel feel free to share with the class

Otherwise you can keep the driveby jabs to yourself

Not sure if you're talking to me (when I say tank meta I mean for everyone affected) but here goes:

Vayne is the obvious pick, followed by Kog, Draven and (possibly Kalista?) Naturally both Draven and Kog aren't as mobile as Vayne. Out of these three you would build BORK anyway on two of the champs.

Get a Liandys and Morellos in the team. It's incredible the amount of people refuse to build Liandy's in middling Gold and then wonder why they're not doing shit. Obviously a Rylias should be in there too, somewhere, but SoloQ gonna SoloQ.

Lastly, and being support main, there needs to be distinction between peel and kiting IMO. Peeling for people is too unreliable for both ADC and support in solo Q. Apart from Shyv and possibly Heca every tank in the game can fall into the kiting trap - just make sure you get this point across to the team.

 

[Stone Ocean]

It wasn't aimed at you. But like I said, champ select isn't a solution because how oppressive lane combos can be. It's almost suicidal to pick Vayne without seeing the enemy ADC first. Kog requires coordination that you will not find in solo Q to work and Draven isn't good Vs tanks.

Kalista and Jinx are the only real options here to pick blindly and their laning is less than stellar so you're risking getting fucked for the sake of dealing with a champion that isn't in your lane. I can choose to pick smartly against say a Leona or a Blitz by picking Ezreal or Trist or Cait, I can pick Sivir if I see a Trist or a Thresh but if the problem is champions I won't interact with for a great part of a whole phase in the game it just leaves me unguarded against counter-counter picks trying to pick around that. If I pick around a lane match up I get fucked in teamfights, if I pick around a jungle match up I get fucked in lane, meanwhile tanks get to build whatever the fuck they want and the whole game has to revolve around them because they can get nigh unkillable and do high damage at the same time.

I just want tanks to have to make the same choices that everyone has to. Is that too much to ask? Even bruiser junglers have to spend at least 3000 gold on damage to deal the damage they do. You wanna do damage? Buy fucking AD or AP like everyone else.