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[sleepykyo]

Considering 3 out of the top 5 win rates in solo Q are tanks, I'll go with tanks > skill

Well yeah, considering team fight comps are going to work better than split/pick comps that require coordination that solo queues don't have. That

http://www.lolking.net/champions/
We're looking at Sej, Amumu, Jinx, Heim and Malz

http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.winPercent&order=descend
Nunu, Sion, Jinx, Heim, Malz

http://www.lolking.net/leaderboards/#/na/1
Players are even more lopsided. After one top main, 4 adcs. Not a single tank tank as opposed to a bruiser shows up unless we count the considerably squishier J4.

Cinderhulk is considerably overtuned for a jungle item. But this age of tanks hasn't really dethroned the adcs or the other carries from the solo queue.

 

[Stone Ocean]

It's hard to analyze win rate for ADCs since they have a very small roster of champions resulting in inflated pick rates overall but consider this:

The ADC with good win rates are the best solo Q hyper carry and utility ADC with some Draven on top. Aside from that, regardless of the site you're looking at, 2/3rds of ADCs are sitting at 50% and below win rate. How much do you think ADCs other than Jinx are directly influencing games in solo Q?

 

[Kotetsu534]

I do think part of the reason teamfight tanks are so good in solo queue (and indeed, always have been, all the way from season 2 when I began following win rates) is that players love to pick damage champions in solo lanes. It's very rare that I look at my team comp and think "man, we really need some DPS to back up the Lulu mid and Maokai top, I better grab a high damage jungler", because my top laner's usually on something like Irelia or Riven and my mid's on an assassin or a high damage mage. In other words, whenever someone picks a tank jungler they're making the right choice for the team comp (in competitive this is not always true, because top laners are often tanks and supports often handle engages).

That said, the post 5.5 Cinderhulk meta is clearly making a couple of outliers too strong (Sejuani and Nunu). I expect we'll go back to aggro junglers being optimal next patch, which is where we were for 2+ years of play, give or take the period where Feral Flare was ridiculously OP. Rek'Sai, Vi, Jarvan, etc. I predict Eve's going to make something of a comeback too, especially at the high ranks.

Also worth remembering, as a Rioter said here, that grouping and pushing is very popular in solo queue (while co-ordinated splitpushing across all three lanes is rare), and tanks are great when teams group up.

This is going to contribute to a higher number of wins in solo queue where the "group and push" strategy is so prevalent (Jinx loves grouping and pushing!). People group, teamfights happen, Jinx AoE's things, and 1 kill tends to lead to 1-4 more + towers and dragons.

 

[Horatorobor]

What the the best champions to carry games om bronze?

 

[TomShoe]

Having an ADC meta would not be good for the game. If we went ahead and nerfed tanks, now we'd be dealing with crazy damage dealers that melt any tank or bruiser trying to get to them, and who also can't do any damage. For me, running helplessly as Jinx deletes my health and rattles off quadra & pentakills like it's nothing doesn't sound very fun. It's like the QB being able to take down a defensive lineman in football. Having ADCs over strong promotes the solo-carry mentality whereas league is a team game, and a tank relies on his team to do damage while he's CC-ing the enemy, as well as the other team working together to either kill him or get to the other ADC.

Spoiler

inb4 just CC. Then we'd be dealing with bruisers again, and that's another can of worms I don't want to get into.

What the the best champions to carry games om bronze?

Pick a champ you like and that's good in the current meta. Then learn them well and you'll start carrying.

I used to try a lot of champs until I settled on Gnar. Kind of team dependent, but his combination of high mobility (safe laning), lots of CC, and an AOE stun chain lockup to more AOE damage that can change a teamfight made me fall in love.

 

[Terbinator]

What the the best champions to carry games om bronze?

Well it depends what role your best at and/or want to main.

My suggestion would be to play support because no one is going to contest it and if you play Zyra/Annie/Morg bot you can also be your teams AP carry. In bronze (or even in gold) you won't be focused as a support until it's too late.

 

[Leezard]

What the the best champions to carry games om bronze?

Yi, riven and Kata should be up there.

 

[Stone Ocean]

Having an ADC meta would not be good for the game. If we went ahead and nerfed tanks, now we'd be dealing with crazy damage dealers that melt any tank or bruiser trying to get to them, and who also can't do any damage. For me, running helplessly as Jinx deletes my health and rattles off quadra & pentakills like it's nothing doesn't sound very fun. It's like the QB being able to take down a defensive lineman in football. Having ADCs over strong promotes the solo-carry mentality whereas league is a team game, and a tank relies on his team to do damage while he's CC-ing the enemy, as well as the other team working together to either kill him or get to the other ADC.

Spoiler

inb4 just CC. Then we'd be dealing with bruisers again, and that's another can of worms I don't want to get into.

I can assure you no one wants to go back to season 1 bullshit, not even ADC players

I don't want tanks to not be tanky. They can be immortal for all I care as long as they don't kill me in the process.

 

[Kotetsu534]

The one thing to keep in mind about Bronze is that games tend to go on much longer than they do at high ELOs, so make sure whatever you pick retains effectiveness throughout the game. Teams have no idea what to do with advantages, so throws are common, and even very inefficient players on scaling champions will eventually become fed.

 

[Kotetsu534]

Having an ADC meta would not be good for the game. If we went ahead and nerfed tanks, now we'd be dealing with crazy damage dealers that melt any tank or bruiser trying to get to them, and who also can't do any damage. For me, running helplessly as Jinx deletes my health and rattles off quadra & pentakills like it's nothing doesn't sound very fun. It's like the QB being able to take down a defensive lineman in football. Having ADCs over strong promotes the solo-carry mentality whereas league is a team game, and a tank relies on his team to do damage while he's CC-ing the enemy, as well as the other team working together to either kill him or get to the other ADC.

Having ADs be too weak (as they were around the start of season 3, after the Armor Pen flat/percentage switch and the big nerfs to Attack Speed) probably does more to promote a "solo carry" approach than anything else*. When they're too weak, building and playing to keep your AD alive is usually wrong, because they can't deal enough damage even when protected - the right thing to do is build as many stats as possible and do what you can.

*Well, the biggest meta-change that would promote solo carries would be a big nerf to TP - winning the 1v1 in top lane hard would turn games in to 4v5s.

 

[sleepykyo]

It's hard to analyze win rate for ADCs since they have a very small roster of champions resulting in inflated pick rates overall but consider this:

The ADC with good win rates are the best solo Q hyper carry and utility ADC with some Draven on top. Aside from that, regardless of the site you're looking at, 2/3rds of ADCs are sitting at 50% and below win rate. How much do you think ADCs other than Jinx are directly influencing games in solo Q?

You specifically noted that ADCs couldn't pick hypercarries due to how punishing the laning would be and now you've noted that evidently the best players seem to be doing it. You mentioned that tanks > skill, the rankings not that tanks aren't up there.

In regards to the win rates you're right it is hard to analyze it because most comps now matter how awful will have one adc occasionally two (the Ez/Corki mid). Alternatively most comps with a tank will be moderately good at solo queue aka team deathmatch. Put differently I'm sure this everyone has experienced this teemo top, nidalee jng, zed mid/yasuo mid and an adc. Alternatively Quinn top, Zed mid, and so forth. ADC less comps don't go through. That leads to adc win rates being pulled downwards by completely awful comps.

 

[TomShoe]

Yi, riven and Kata should be up there.

Oh please no. Yi, Riven, & Kat. All of them literally suck the fun out of the game. Not fun to play with, not fun to play against. And when they fall behind, they really fall behind. Not to mention act very toxic whilst doing so.

I can assure you no one wants to go back to season 1 bullshit, not even ADC players

I don't want tanks to not be tanky. They can be immortal for all I care as long as they don't kill me in the process.

Strong tanks or strong bruisers, pick your poison. I still assert that it's a team failure because your teammates aren't doing a good job of either protecting you or killing the enemy carry first. If you wanted to kill the tank why not just build bork & LW and let your own tank & AP go for the carry? As long as you're doing as much DPS as possible, the team-fight will, more often than not, go in your favor.

Having ADs be too weak (as they were around the start of season 3, after the Armor Pen flat/percentage switch and the big nerfs to Attack Speed) probably does more to promote a "solo carry" approach than anything else*. When they're too weak, building and playing to keep your AD alive is usually wrong, because they can't deal enough damage even when protected - the right thing to do is build as many stats as possible and do what you can.

*Well, the biggest meta-change that would promote solo carries would be a big nerf to TP - winning the 1v1 in top lane hard would turn games in to 4v5s.

The only thing is that the ADs don't feel weak at all. I believe Stone's argument was that tanks were too strong and could get to carries and kill them. A properly built anti-tank Jinx could quickly delete anything in her path given enough time to scale. That's what the entire point of a hyper-carry is, to get to late game and start killing everything. As long as one itemizes correctly, deleting a tank should be doable. ADCs should have plenty of peel from teammates and self-peel from stuff like bork.

 

[sleepykyo]

What the the best champions to carry games om bronze?

I got into silver playing mostly support/jng and I'm awful. Generally support is uncontested in bronze so you'd be able to get it easily.

Alternatively Heim seems to work great in solo lanes as he'll probably win lane and players aren't very good at playing from behind. He also gets free kills from melee junglers coming into gank and dying.

 

[bidguy]

What the the best champions to carry games om bronze?

katarina is really easy to pick up and carry. just keep tabs low health enemies and roam

 

[Crab Milk Mickey]

Yeah...

It's a jungle item that's so good it has spilled over into top lane even though half of the item is worthless in lane. Plus they're gutting its damage next patch. Idk how you can say it's not overturned.

Also, I've been a jungle main since I started playing and have played tanky champs regardless of meta. I'm just also realistic.

Also, you're the first one to post without actually at least trying to back up your opinion. You should probably tell us what is so narrow minded about our opinions instead of just shit posting

Speaking of shitposting: you're doing a bang-up job of imagining words that aren't there. I wasn't defending Cinderhulk or claiming it wasn't overtuned.

I simply have no interest in participating in an argument when the thread itself generally consists out of petulant whining no matter how big or small a supposed balance problem may be, all the while placing further emphasis on solo queue or its win rate percentages. Once something has been nerfed, something else will be deemed worthy of endless complaining - ample use of buzzwords like "cancerous" may vary - and the process repeats itself. It's a tiresome affair made all the more amusing to me by the fact that lately carry players, who have usually been the center of attention for seasons on end, now aren't top dog anymore for a fleeting moment.

I'd rather have more people construct levelheaded posts like dimb's or drawkcaB's for example instead of rampant "blah blah blah this shit sucks, too hard to counter" kneejerking, but I don't see this happening any time soon. There's hardly any talk going on as it is how one could be adapting to the new meta or what they themselves could be doing wrong.

 

[Stone Ocean]

Also fuck off with that "you haven't tried playing around it" bullshit argument. I've tried everything that is avaiable to work against this meta. Guess what, this stupid simplistic role doesn't have the tools to deal with this shit outside of champ select so spare me the condescending "hurr durr what is up with ADC players" garbage when you're not exactly the paragon of reasonable discussions Mr Never Buy Sunfire On Anyone Period. I've had enough of being treated like I'm a 5 year old that can't have an opinion because "daddy is always right" for one day specially when my posts have always been trying to have a discussion you weren't and don't want to be a part of.

I'm so salty I'm turning into Ghost smh, I'll just stop before I get myself banned

You specifically noted that ADCs couldn't pick hypercarries due to how punishing the laning would be and now you've noted that evidently the best players seem to be doing it. You mentioned that tanks > skill, the rankings not that tanks aren't up there.

High rank ADC duo Q more often than not - specially pros - and it's a lot easier to have a supp that knows exactly how to adapt to your pick considering the enemy team overall. Notice how ADC win rates greatly scale as you go up in divisions.

Strong tanks or strong bruisers, pick your poison. I still assert that it's a team failure because your teammates aren't doing a good job of either protecting you or killing the enemy carry first. If you wanted to kill the tank why not just build bork & LW and let your own tank & AP go for the carry? As long as you're doing as much DPS as possible, the team-fight will, more often than not, go in your favor.

First, stop saying to buy BoTRK LW. You're not killing tanks with that.
Second even if it were good, you don't "just" build Botrk, that's 5500 gold that is not farming itself
And third say I have enough gold to get those items fast, now I get manhandled by the enemy ADC who went AD + crit because BoTRK is a very unoptimal rush item on most ADC
So it all boils down to tanks get too tanky, too fast and too damaging.

The only thing is that the ADs don't feel weak at all. I believe Stone's argument was that tanks were too strong and could get to carries and kill them. A properly built anti-tank Jinx could quickly delete anything in her path given enough time to scale. That's what the entire point of a hyper-carry is, to get to late game and start killing everything. As long as one itemizes correctly. Deleting a tank should be doable. ADCs should have plenty of peel from teammates and self-peel from stuff like bork.

Key word: "given enough time to scale". Try being IE PD Jinx against the Cinderhulk Righteous Glory tank. That's if you even managed to farm that far.

 

[Horatorobor]

I've been playing Nunu jungle and jax top, build them like tank, but the adc I've been queuing with are all afraid of teamfights and we don't get any of them kills

 

[Orochinagis]

Oh my the other page....

 

[NCR Redslayer]

Oh my the other page....

Too many tanks will ruin the fun.

 

[Tizoc]

QTPie presents
http://www.twitch.tv/imaqtpie

Top Nunu adventures!

 

[Edwardo]

Can Sivir use Spell Shield on Naut's ult as it's traveling or does it need to be on cast?

 

[Stone Ocean]

Can Sivir use Spell Shield on Naut's ult as it's traveling or does it need to be on cast?

Shield on impact, not the cast, similar to Vi ult

 

[Edwardo]

Shield on impact, not the cast, similar to Vi ult

Thanks thats what I figured.

 

[TomShoe]

First, stop saying to buy BoTRK LW. You're not killing tanks with that.
Second even if it were good, you don't "just" build Botrk, that's 5500 gold that is not farming itself
And third say I have enough gold to get those items fast, now I get manhandled by the enemy ADC who went AD + crit because BoTRK is a very unoptimal rush item on most ADC
So it all boils down to tanks get too tanky, too fast and too damaging.

Key word: "given enough time to scale". Try being IE PD Jinx against the Cinderhulk Righteous Glory tank. That's if you even managed to farm that far.

Oh excuse me, just pick from any of the available tank-busting items out there, there's plenty. Getting manhandled by the enemy ADC isn't the issue, because they will likely have their own set of tanks and mages rushing them as well. The main job of the ADC is to do as much DPS as possible as safely as possible. If it means having to pound away at the tank, then so be it. If you can get to the carry and burst him down, great, but you have to itemize for the specific role you want to play, whether it be tank-buster or carry-killer. Same for tanks, whether they want to be a peeler, an initiator, a cleaner, a carry-rusher, and so on. Not to mention they also have to build against ADs, APs, mixed damage, and true damage.

You're treating all of these match-ups as 1v1s where it's just Sion or Sej just outright rushing the defenseless carry. There are options to kite the tank away. The support could help peel. The tank could help peel. Get Furor boots. Get frozen heart or something (lol). The 'woe is me' mentality is just too much. As long as the team protects the ADC, they will carry the team to victory.

 

[dimb]

Key word: "given enough time to scale". Try being IE PD Jinx against the Cinderhulk Righteous Glory tank. That's if you even managed to farm that far.

Most of the last few pages are literal nonsense, but this is hilarious. Jinx has a 54.44% win rate, the highest of any ADC just behind

Spoiler

Ashe

. Both are ahead of almost all tanks except for Nunu.

For all the whining that you guys do about what's not viable: I can literally do pretty much whatever I want in this game and win. I'll keep building Warrior on Skarner and blowing people the fuck out. I'll pick Rumble jungle and destroy games. All this crybaby stuff about tanks being threats is hilarious.

Play whatever you want and get good at this game for once. Cinderhulk is whatever. Righteous Glory can very harshly punish players with poor positioning/vision/awareness, which ADC players get the brunt of.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Oh excuse me, just pick from any of the available tank-busting items out there, there's plenty. Getting manhandled by the enemy ADC isn't the issue, because they will likely have their own set of tanks and mages rushing them as well. The main job of the ADC is to do as much DPS as possible as safely as possible. If it means having to pound away at the tank, then so be it. If you can get to the carry and burst him down, great, but you have to itemize for the specific role you want to play, whether it be tank-buster or carry-killer. Same for tanks, whether they want to be a peeler, an initiator, a cleaner, a carry-rusher, and so on. Not to mention they also have to build against ADs, APs, mixed damage, and true damage.

You're treating all of these match-ups as 1v1s where it's just Sion or Sej just outright rushing the defenseless carry. There are options to kite the tank away. The support could help peel. The tank could help peel. Get Furor boots. Get frozen heart or something (lol). The 'woe is me' mentality is just too much. As long as the team protects the ADC, they will carry the team to victory.

Pretty much. ADCs can kite, wait for initiation, build to kill as fast as possible. I mean, I've been trying to get it through that they're discussing in a vacuum. It's akin to the people you meet in League saying '1v1 me bro' as if it means anything, despite it being a Team game.

Yeah, maybe it's been unfair that I'm not treating their argument as gold-That I'm not giving these hypothetical, in a vacuum, situations. That I'm not pretending that a tank will always successfully rush an ADC who's standing still watching a train head for them. Because that's simply not true in a match of league. Earlier someone tried to present to me a 3 tank comp vs. a 2 tank comp...and I'm thinking, 'the fuck?'. Games aren't decided by what champions each team has, they're decided by how well a team plays together.

Sure, in blind mode solo queue where your team won't play cooperatively with you, you'd have a point with your hypothetical arguments, but League isn't and shouldn't be balanced around blind solo queue. And it just so happens when Tanks can properly tank now-Being able to be a threat while taking heavy damage-(Which I should remind you Riot mentioned years ago that was their goal when making a tank)people are flabbergasted and blindsided by that fact. People haven't adjusted to that yet. I mean, people are forgetting that years ago, the only tanks worth anything were Shen and Rammus, because they could taunt the carry/team, and were the only 'true' tanks for a long time that could force DPS on them. For the longest time, Shen was a top tier pick that he got nerfed over and over and over again because he was the only tank worth picking.

Then came the bruiser meta, where bruisers filled the role of tanks, not only because fo their survivability, but because of their damage output. In essence, they did what tanks were supposed to, be a threat while taking a high amount of damage. That meta seems to be gone, I haven't seen a Renekton in the games I've played. However, the one consistent value in all of this despite that, is that ADCs have always had a place. Bruisers, and tanks were roles that went in and out of favor, but ADCs have always been important. I think that's the issue people have. That ADCs suddenly aren't as strong as they used to be, simply because a Tank can do its job and charge right at you while dealing a moderate amount of damage simply because you're squishy that their base skills seem strong. Because ADCs don't really have itemization that gives them attack power and a good defense...well one or two items do that, but to pick that item over IE or BT or LW will make a team complain at you.

And I'm ok with it.

 

[bidguy]

Having ADs be too weak (as they were around the start of season 3, after the Armor Pen flat/percentage switch and the big nerfs to Attack Speed) probably does more to promote a "solo carry" approach than anything else*. When they're too weak, building and playing to keep your AD alive is usually wrong, because they can't deal enough damage even when protected - the right thing to do is build as many stats as possible and do what you can.

*Well, the biggest meta-change that would promote solo carries would be a big nerf to TP - winning the 1v1 in top lane hard would turn games in to 4v5s.

a nerf to tp would also destroy many weak early game champions. how fun would it be to never come back from giving first blood to a riven ?

 

[V_Arnold]

BreezyLimbo, you are good at insults.
Tell me once again how a team with 3 tanks loses to a team with 1 tanks, provided that they do not outplay each other, aka similar skill levels.

"Earlier someone tried to present to me a 3 tank comp vs. a 2 tank comp...and I'm thinking, 'the fuck?'. Games aren't decided by what champions each team has, they're decided by how well a team plays together."

The fuck? There are MULTIPLE factors at work, champion power being one of them. Item power being another. It is a combination of all the factors.
Someone saying that Factor X now has more weight is NOT dismissed by saying "meh, you can still raise factor Z3, aka "skill".

 

[BreezyLimbo]

BreezyLimbo, you are good at insults.
Tell me once again how a team with 3 tanks loses to a team with 1 tanks, provided that they do not outplay each other, aka similar skill levels.

"Earlier someone tried to present to me a 3 tank comp vs. a 2 tank comp...and I'm thinking, 'the fuck?'. Games aren't decided by what champions each team has, they're decided by how well a team plays together."

The fuck? There are MULTIPLE factors at work, champion power being one of them. Item power being another. It is a combination of all the factors.
Someone saying that Factor X now has more weight is NOT dismissed by saying "meh, you can still raise factor Z3, aka "skill".

Eh? What insults?

As for how a team with 3 tanks loses against a team with 1 tank...easy. The team with 1 tank is more coordinated and better.

....Also yeah, skill is very important. Get a Silver team of the perfect comp, Sej, Maokai, Sion, Lucian, Thresh, against a Diamond team with whatever champions. Vlad, Shen, Rammus, ADC Twisted Fate. Maybe throw in a Heimerdinger for the Diamond team.

By the papers, in a vacuum, the Silver team should win this. Unfortunately this game isn't a vacuum. It never will be. Every time I would choose the Diamond team, with the crappier team comp, to win against the silver team with the perfect team comp. Despite the silver teams perfect team comp. It's simple as that.

I'm not giving your argument weight by treating it in a vacuum. You're arguing purely for champion and item power, whilst neglecting actual skill, coordination, positioning. On paper, you'd be correct. In a vacuum, you'd be correct. But this game isn't a vacuum, and if Riot started balancing based around what a champion could do- instead of actually looking at how real games happen, with real people, in real situations-then the balancing would be extremely poor.

Edit-In a nutshell, the argument you're presenting is an ultimatum, it's you saying 'You HAVE to follow my rules, and you HAVE to judge this based on how I say it is, therefore you cannot disagree.' I'm not going to give credence to that type of argument, because *theoretically*, in a *vacuum*, if two teams were perfectly equal in skill, then it comes down to the champions they're playing to determine an outcome. This is if we *ignore* the possible positioning and coordination a team will have based on that team comp, and if we *ignore* the reactions they'll have against the enemy team. In an ultimate vacuum like that, then the champions picked are the ones that will determine the victory. Like I've mentioned, you'd be correct, but only in a vacuum, with the hypothetical situation that you're presenting. It's like saying....it's like having an argument about which group of soldiers would win, and you're saying 'Well my group of soldiers have 5 guns, your guys only have 1 gun, who cares about skill or whether they may have guns or not'. It's presenting an impossible situation for me to argue against because it's set in a vacuum. Instead of looking at statistics, like Jinx having a higher win % than most tanks, you neglect that because it doesn't suit your argument. And I don't play like that. I judge the balance and game about what goes on in game, not through 'what ifs' and vacuums.

 

[Fracas]

I have no idea how to play Kalista

halp

 

[V_Arnold]

You talk about vaccums and theoreticals and absolutes, yet neglect to see that you have a huge flaw in your argument.

Can you understand the premise being: assuming equally skilled players?
That is the premise.

The answer to losing THEN is not "maybe you shuold have cc'd better" or "you need better outplays".

Assuming same skill level is not something mystical. Games do skill-based matchmaking all the time.

Do you still argue that "assuming similar skill level" (the premise), tanks are now preferable to anything else when it comes to team composition?

You cant argue your way out of there by saying "you just need to outplay the tanks". We already assumed similar skill levels. The tanks are not stupid. The players just as good as YOU. So, then, do you disagree with tank's current power?

 

[BreezyLimbo]

You talk about vaccums and theoreticals and absolutes, yet neglect to see that you have a huge flaw in your argument.

Can you understand the premise being: assuming equally skilled players?
That is the premise.

The answer to losing THEN is not "maybe you shuold have cc'd better" or "you need better outplays".

Assuming same skill level is not something mystical. Games do skill-based matchmaking all the time.

Do you still argue that "assuming similar skill level" (the premise), tanks are now preferable to anything else when it comes to team composition?

You cant argue your way out of there by saying "you just need to outplay the tanks". We already assumed similar skill levels. The tanks are not stupid. The players just as good as YOU. So, then, do you disagree with tank's current power?

Again, your premise of similar skill level is flawed because again its setting it in a vacuum. Its assuming that tanks will always come out on top, its assuming that in this match of similar skill levels, that the team with the tanks will always trounce the enemy team. Your premise is literally the definition of setting something in a vacuum. And thats fine. But dont pretend that your premise is the end all. Like I said, in a vacuum, through hypotheticals where you set whether a team will outplay another or not, you'd be correct. Thats if you ignore the possibility of getting caught out or just performing better as a team.

So in a vacuum, you'd be correct. Through the hypothetical premise you set up, you're correct. But to balance around vacuums and hypotheticals would be a mistake.

 

[Terbinator]

Can everyone just stop talking bollocks and perhaps improve at the game.

Past two pages has been nothing more than tales from my arse with enough evidence form both sides to bring us to a stalemate.

 

[Ghost is Bad]

Why didnt i think of that holy shit its that simple

 

[V_Arnold]

"So in a vacuum, you'd be correct. Through the hypothetical premise you set up, you're correct. But to balance around vacuums and hypotheticals would be a mistake. "

Luckily, I am not arguing for balancing over the sole factor of champion power. If I were to make such decisions, half of the solo-Q carries would have already been out of the game But I am no one, and I am better at theorycrafting than actually playing the game anyway

The point is: I do not think that the others were complaining about balancing the game around theoreticals. It is simply to tone down one aspect - the impossible to outplay aspect - from tank. Which Riot seems to be doing, whether it will be enough is yet to be seen. Regardless, just getting better is not enough against Cinderhulk/Sunfire-based tanks, or not always enough.

Things like that happened in other games, again: see StarCraft II. Sometimes a strategy was so strong that you just assumed a counter to it, and when the opponent was just as clever, he blindly built the counter to your counter, which lead to the conclusion that maybe the inital strategy was clearly a bit *too* strong, to even affect the meta when it is not even being played.

To translate it into LoL: when you can build tank-heavy AND consider countering those who try to counter your tanks, the enemies are in trouble. Maybe they should just opt out from an adc and go 5-tank, which will counter all!

 

[Kotetsu534]

a nerf to tp would also destroy many weak early game champions. how fun would it be to never come back from giving first blood to a riven ?

I was a top lane main in season 2. I know well the pain of getting bursted down by Riven and Lee Sin at level 2, losing a huge bunch of minions, and getting frozen out for the rest of the lane phase (I did the same thing to many an opponent). Utterly brutal and unfun to be on the receiving end of that. It did make competitive top lane the natural home for "fan favourites" with big reputations like Shy, Flame, Reapered, Stanley, Maknoon, Darien, Voyboy etc. as they would frequently win games off their own skill and pressure.

The good thing about pre-TP top lane was you could play top very often if you wanted to - a lot of players hated getting stuck with it since it was so punishing if you didn't understand it.

 

[Stone Ocean]

Oh so that's how you play top lane

You pick dumb ass shit

 

[TomShoe]

Oh so that's how you play top lane

You pick dumb ass shit

 

[zkylon]

Tank talk is Stuff outside of my realm but really interesting to read anyways


Pls try to stay civil tho :>

Love one another pls

 

[sleepykyo]

About that black cleaver, anyone found which champions it really works well on so far?

 

[Crab Milk Mickey]

Also fuck off with that "you haven't tried playing around it" bullshit argument. I've tried everything that is avaiable to work against this meta. Guess what, this stupid simplistic role doesn't have the tools to deal with this shit outside of champ select so spare me the condescending "hurr durr what is up with ADC players" garbage when you're not exactly the paragon of reasonable discussions Mr Never Buy Sunfire On Anyone Period. I've had enough of being treated like I'm a 5 year old that can't have an opinion because "daddy is always right" for one day specially when my posts have always been trying to have a discussion you weren't and don't want to be a part of.

Give me a break with this martyr attitude. I don't know what's better: the fact you truly believe that ADC's are borderline defenseless in the current meta and that you're doing everything so correctly that it has to be tanks being super overpowered, or that you expect people to not treat you like a 5-year old when said discussion attempt is primarily multi-page venting with childish retorts as a cherry on top. By the end of the day we're still talking about god damn solo queue too, territory where practically anything goes... but in all fairness, you're not the only one prone to throwing hissyfits in here so you weren't being singled out. Have a quokka:

Lastly, nothing has changed about that helped elevate Sunfire Cape from being awful.

About that black cleaver, anyone found which champions it really works well on so far?

Yorick ought to be well-suited to it, but he already itemizes towards CDR to a degree so I'm having a difficult time deciding which of the other purchases (like Frozen Heart and to a lesser extent Spirit Visage) I want to delay in its stead.

 

[TomShoe]

I think we dropped it lol

 

[Jeff-DSA]

Who cares if the tank meta works or not? They're not fun to play against. Even when winning, there's nothing fun about late game Mundo, Garen, Nasus, etc. They take zero skill in the late game and they just hammer out damage while never dying. That's hardly fun.

 

[drawkcaB]

About that black cleaver, anyone found which champions it really works well on so far?

I really need to try it on jungle Xin (and top Xin now that it's apparently good, like a poor man's irelia, but whatever...Xin It to Win It baby!). I've always had this issue where after my first big jungle item Phage seemed like a really solid pick up, but at the same time I've veered away from it because I've grown less and less attached to Trinity Force on Xin Zhao. I sub'ed out Phage/TF for Ghostblade and adore that item on Xin, but new Cleaver building out of Phage seems like a really solid path.

 

[Stone Ocean]

I've heard stuff about Olaf being pretty swell with it

 

[TomShoe]

Who cares if the tank meta works or not? They're not fun to play against. Even when winning, there's nothing fun about late game Mundo, Garen, Nasus, etc. They take zero skill in the late game and they just hammer out damage while never dying. That's hardly fun.

*Riot Nerfs Tanks*

Who cares if the assassin meta works or not? They're not fun to play against. Even when winning, there's nothing fun about late game Kat, Zed, Akali, etc. They take zero skill in the late game and they just hammer out damage while never dying. That's hardly fun.

*Riot Nerfs Assassins*

Who cares if the ADC meta works or not? They're not fun to play against. Even when winning, there's nothing fun about late game Jinx, Graves, Cait, etc. They take zero skill in the late game and they just hammer out damage while never dying. That's hardly fun.

*Riot Nerfs ADCs*

Who cares if the bruiser meta works or not? They're not fun to play against. Even when winning, there's nothing fun about late game Lee Sin, Elise, Rek'Sai, etc. They take zero skill in the late game and they just hammer out damage while never dying. That's hardly fun.

Spoiler

:^)

Spoiler

costanza.jpg

 

[Leezard]

The things you have to do to carry sometimes.

Volibear and Lee died early top, which gave Olaf 3 kills and double buffs after Voli returned top.

We got some kills bot but Corki kept overextending into Eve since he didn't back in time. Diana and Voli became huge later in the game though, it was a good game in the end.

edit: the gold advantage graph was bugged, we were never that far behind apparently.

 

[NCR Redslayer]

Tanks be like:

 

[Stone Ocean]

Ok, add Wukong to the list of champions that use the new Cleaver

 

[zkylon]

can't really think of like a competent post to make about everything so i'm just gonna post zeronis madoka lux concept art and reply to the one that was directed at me

SO GOOD

the only thing i don't ilke about this lux is that it's not like a pleated skirt

pleated skirts are the ultimate form of skirts

this is common knowledge, zeronis

Except that isn't true though. Mages go abyssal to survive against leblanc and seekers/zhonya against zed. Fighters regularly balance damage, mr and armor and health.

that's only half true tho. abyssal is not an item everyone can buy, in fact, very few mages can (lebonk, ahri, diana, lizzy, maybe annie, but that's kind of it, at least for the most popular mana mids...)

but a big part of the roster can't build abyssal, namely ori, lux, ziggs, xerath, azir, etc. it's just not a good item for them because they outrange the passive so it's just not cost-effective to build that instead of just "getting gud" and building riskier. you're throwing out money if you don't.

similarly zhonyas is a good item to buy against like zed but it has negative effects on your build as you do noticeably less damage than with deathcap, and obviously you miss the cdr/mp5 if you rush it instead of athenes (which you should buy later). you could buy tear but that's a very greedy build and that's kind of contradictory since you're trying to be safe by rushing defensive

and like actually zhonyas is a pretty good example of reactive builds done right, as it poses a more interesting question since you're trading teamfighting and waveclear for a bit more personal safety, but it's just one example. it's still gives you ap and the active is still useful against magic dmg but it's definitely deviating in a less optimal path and often i just get deathcap anyways and try to play better

in any case, zhonyas and abyssal, to a degree, are cool, but they delay your powerspike, which afaik is not true for tanks, since they don't really have one outside of levels. like going banshees first instead of randuins doesn't really change sejuani's life. or whatever.

and if a mage or a carry tries to go something really defensive like banshees before finishing their core it's like "ok someone else better be fed" or whatever

and i don't necessarily think this is bad, but i don't think it's very easy to ask of carries to itemize against tanks, specially defensively, since core builds for carries are i think a lot more strict that they are for tanks

also i think liandry's in particular is a very poor item and should be probably changed somehow, specially since it has the same problem of old bc of having flat pen and % hp dot which seem to be things that are at odds with each other