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League of Legends |OT9| Stealing Abilities From Inferior MOBAs since 2009
- Thread starter PhillipCostigan
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How were you able to hear the ghosts of a dead lane you damn necromancer?
Broken as in near impossible to balance? Wind Wall.
guess they expected you to carry them all the way across finish.
Some games are just unwinnable, and that's ok. It was a normal game anyway so no huge loss. I just felt like sharing.
What level are you at this point btw? Let me know your in game name and we can play whenever. I'm basically only playing normals at this point anyway so whatever
lee sin is useless 95 percent of the time unless a D4+ player is playing him
i'm generally not a fan of manaless champions, but i can appreciate stuff about like what gnar and yasuo and riven and rumble and whatnot can do because they don't use mana
even on garen i feel it's fine since he's supposed to be a newbish champion for people to learn to play i guess?
even kat to a degree, although i feel like kat could easily just have free spells after a reset and get much easier to balance thanks to that
but shyvana. literally all shy's bar is like a cooldown for her ult, it's so silly
braum's wall was actually a bigger deal than yasuo's and that one actually doesn't really block everything (as in braum eats all the reduced dmg and cc)
even on garen i feel it's fine since he's supposed to be a newbish champion for people to learn to play i guess?
even kat to a degree, although i feel like kat could easily just have free spells after a reset and get much easier to balance thanks to that
but shyvana. literally all shy's bar is like a cooldown for her ult, it's so silly
what's impossible to balance about wind wall?
braum's wall was actually a bigger deal than yasuo's and that one actually doesn't really block everything (as in braum eats all the reduced dmg and cc)
killatopak
Gold Member
I'm worse off. I even bought his pool party skin and just played him once. Realized how difficult he was to play and never played him again.
Do you really have to be D4? I've seen countless good Lee Sins in normals and not all of them were diamond players. To be fair, the last time I saw a good Lee Sin was before the Cinderhulk boom. Nowadays, he sucks even in the hand of skilled players.
The gist of it is that it's an amazingly powerful basic ability when used correctly since it can negate other champions strongest spells. Increase cooldowns, reduce the duration, the width, etc. there's little that can change the fact it's an excellent basic ability. Riot could put the rank 5 CD of Wind Wall on a 1 minute timer and it'd still be pretty damn good. How many basic abilities could suffer that sort of nerf and still be useful? It consumes a considerable amount of Yasuo's power budget as a result, more than most players realize.
Because any sensible nerfs to it are going to have a neglible effect, the end result is that Riot had to repeatedly nerf other aspects of Yasuo. And that's why I think it's the most broken basic ability. It's a single ability that breaks an otherwise healthy kit. For the most part in this game kits tend be broken because of how the abilities mesh together (good example is what we're witnessing right now with Elise) and not because of one single aspect. Replacing Wind Wall with something that still helps Yasuo to prevent damage, CC, etc. would go a long way to putting him in a better spot even if the functionality of the rest of his kit was completely unchanged.
You're the first person I've ever read that thinks Braum's wall was a "bigger deal"...I'm not even sure what you're getting at to be honest.
Cool! My summoner name is Ryotian. Send me a friend request or something
imo windwall was never the issue about yasuo?
champions like thresh have similarly "broken" spells that were nerfed because of how strong they were and how much invisible power they gave (like shields)
yasuo windwall was never nerfed cos the other parts of his kits were obnoxious, i don't think it has anything to do with windwall
almost same spell exists in braum and it's not an issue there
BreezyLimbo
Banned
I agree zky, the issue isn't yasuos wind wall, it never was
his problem was his free crit, his insane amount of mobility, his huge burst, his CC, and his survivability
wind wall by itself is pretty mediocre. But when combined with his already overloaded kit, the champion is a issue
Tizoc
Member
There are a lot of good Lee Sin players in my Bronze 1 ELO doe.
Braum's wall can be broken unlike Yasuo's
Yes Braum's wall eats up a lot of stuff but it eventually breaks, but Yasuo's would still stay up even after blocking Varus' Ult, Ez' Ult, Seju's Ult, Ashe's Ult, Lee's first Q and Jinx's Ult combined.
However seeeing as most of you peeps haven't sene many good Yasuo's, the wind wall is all about positiong so it blocks the most attacks from enemies, you can always just walk around it and kite yasuo still.
killatopak
Gold Member
I never had a problem with yas but I guess it's because I started playing long after his nerf. I still hear tales of it though as well as how OP Xin Zhao, Yorick and Leb were once.
I agree that his kit is overloaded though. Wind wall is the least of his problems. I'm more concerned about his passive. Free barrier and crit chance is op. It's like malph's passive only better.
I agree that his kit is overloaded though. Wind wall is the least of his problems. I'm more concerned about his passive. Free barrier and crit chance is op. It's like malph's passive only better.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Yasuos wall is also only immobile and it only grows in size when leveled, and is usually leveled last
replace xerath with ziggs cause satchel charge can proc xerath ult on a juicy target when they step too close during a siege
Tizoc
Member
Lebonk is still dumb.
Logging on now
i really don't like the azir nerf
directly makes you want to avoid doing those shurima insec plays and that was the coolest thing about him
i'd rather they nerfed everything else about him other than that, i didn't realize how shit this change makes him feel for me
i might just drop him entirely, there's just very little fun in playing a poke champion
directly makes you want to avoid doing those shurima insec plays and that was the coolest thing about him
i'd rather they nerfed everything else about him other than that, i didn't realize how shit this change makes him feel for me
i might just drop him entirely, there's just very little fun in playing a poke champion
dunno if ridiculously op but xin zhao and shyvanna are afk farming and oneshotting everyone which sounds like something that shouldn't be really happening? i feel like devourer is not a big deal but i also really don't enjoy playing against shyvana and xin zhao
also i agree, jungle changes after pre-season have been really disruptive in ways that haven't been too much fun
the camp buffs and baron/dragon and crab were all great additions but i feel like smite charges, cinderhulk, runeglaive and now devourer have all been more trouble than they were worth
Idk i think the 3 heavy scaling jungle items and the one flat stat item is pretty cool. There are top tier junglers that use each item which is something i dont think has ever happened in the 2+ years I've played this game. Season 3 EVERYONE built ancient golem, season 4 EVERYONE built elder lizard or feral flare when it was good, earlier this season everyone built cinderhulk.
I like it now. Each item has its place
I like it now. Each item has its place
hasn't this season been kind of the same tho?
everyone built warrior, then everyone built cinderhulk, now you're seeing devourer on vi and stuff
and similarly to elder lizard both cinderhulk and runeglaive have been abused in lane
i dunno, maybe it's cos i don't jungle so i don't really know if it's gotten any more fun to play now but i feel barely anything's changed thanks to the new items, and junglers are just desperately looking for the one that's op to abuse like always and we had to endure cinderhulk fizz and hecarim and runeglaive ezreal and diana for that
can't fault riot for trying i guess
everyone built warrior, then everyone built cinderhulk, now you're seeing devourer on vi and stuff
and similarly to elder lizard both cinderhulk and runeglaive have been abused in lane
i dunno, maybe it's cos i don't jungle so i don't really know if it's gotten any more fun to play now but i feel barely anything's changed thanks to the new items, and junglers are just desperately looking for the one that's op to abuse like always and we had to endure cinderhulk fizz and hecarim and runeglaive ezreal and diana for that
can't fault riot for trying i guess
MrCookiepants
Member
Getting an instant quadra kill with Quinn ult (second active) has to be the best feeling ever.
They should have removed the shield, not the knockup. It's annoying being baited by a low health Azir who proceeds to tank a million dmg with E shield plus barrier.
It's not nearly as bad as the Leblanc nerf though. How many times I get W, R instead of W, Q, R because I'm stuck in distortion animation for eternity now. Nerfs that make champs clunky/less fun are the worst kind.
They should have removed the shield, not the knockup. It's annoying being baited by a low health Azir who proceeds to tank a million dmg with E shield plus barrier.
It's not nearly as bad as the Leblanc nerf though. How many times I get W, R instead of W, Q, R because I'm stuck in distortion animation for eternity now. Nerfs that make champs clunky/less fun are the worst kind.
For the majority of the season yeah but I'm talking right now. I haven't seen a vi build devourer but that uh sounds bad
As far as top tier solo q junglers go reksai and rengar are building warrior and you could make an argument for vi being top tier and she still builds it, gragas is still super strong with ch, nid and elise are amazing right now and build runeglaive, and kayle and shyv build devourer
http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.winPercent&order=descend&roleSort=Jungle
This is legitimately awesome to me. In the top 20 jungle win rates we have 5 devourer users, 6 runeglaive users, 6 ch users, and 3 warrior users unless i counted wrong
tbh they shouldn't have removed either, they should've just nerfed his q damage imo
also i didn't mind the lebonk nerf, tho i think she didn't deserve it. she doesn't feel that clunky either and it's nice that ppl get some more counterplay.
the azir changes tho, i don't like those at all, it's just making the champion more boring
i've seen a few already and it does sound bad (whole point of vi is bursting ppl down as soon as you get 6 but w/e) but ppl also built cinderhulk on her and lee sin so i guess ppl will try anything as long as they consider it op
i mean, i think if we're basing off solo q there's always been variety in junglers, amumu and fiddle and rammus and nunu used to be super strong (as in high winrate) in s4 too, even if they weren't considered "super top tier" like lee sin or j4 or whatever
solo queue always has more variety that ppl make it out to be, it's competitive that's super limited, and i think it still is, tho maybe less so, haven't been watching much competitive lately
killatopak
Gold Member
Fought a Nunu top lane with Irelia...
HOLY FUCK. LIKE HOLY FUCK.
That's probably the most frustrating lane I ever fought in. He's such a lane bully. We won but only because the their jungle dc'd.
I never want to experience that again.
HOLY FUCK. LIKE HOLY FUCK.
That's probably the most frustrating lane I ever fought in. He's such a lane bully. We won but only because the their jungle dc'd.
I never want to experience that again.
Wolf Akela
Member
There was a time when his Q would heal for a lot more, and his E can perma slow you.
Plus some BS like soloing Baron as soon as it spawns and requiring only like 4k worth of items.
Plus some BS like soloing Baron as soon as it spawns and requiring only like 4k worth of items.
That's SUPER deceptive because that 150% doesn't take into account the fact that you have to build a 1000 gold item that gives you basically no combat stats before you can build devourer. 150 is the efficiency for the enchant alone without the actual jungle item ( ie hunters machete, stalkers, etc)
I mean if it is overtuned it's definitely not based on its gold efficiency. The numbers you're talking about are only about 5% higher than before sated came out and it was garbo then. Any op-ness of that item comes from sated, not the raw numbers.
Besides even at 150+ it's really comparable to runeglaive and warrior.
Tizoc
Member
You and your jungler would want to rush him early on, I had to go against a top Nunu once and my jungler Fizz was helping other lanes which were getting ahead. I was Garen and tried to survive as best as I can. We still one but a tanky Nunu is tough to take out 1v1 @_@
killatopak
Gold Member
It was pretty hard laning against him especially because in our case our bot was having a harder time than me when our supp picked yasuo smh so I had to deal with him myself plus vi's constant ganks. I can out damage him but his sustain is just too much coupled with catalyst. I had to go build a lot of mr just to survive leading to my trinity power spike to be late.
I reckon I would do well against him using my mains but with Irelia, whom I'm still learning, I can't find a decent strategy to win lane.
I was hoping it went to late game where he would be less intimidating. Good thing their jungle dc'd and it was easy from there.
I was hoping my jungle would gank but he was helping mid and bot a lot because they really were struggling.
To be fair it was my first time facing Nunu top and I simply didn't respect his damage and sustain early on. I didn't die to him or anything but I was 40 cs below his and a level below him. My only saving grace was that I took teleport and bought flask.
I dunno if it's new meta but I've been seeing a lot of heimerdinger with zzrot's portal thingy as a first item. Is his base damage enough in the early game that he can build the portal early on and disregard ap items?
You're talking like the rest of the item is completely useless. And yes, sated devourer with 200+% (could be way more depending how valuable you consider phantom hit to be) is more the issue here. But even if you completely ignored everything the machete does, and included its cost, devourer would still be 120% (edit: that's actually sated, the regular one is 93%) gold efficient. Warrior doesn't come even close and CH requires a lot of health stacking to be remotely comparable. Something about being the most gold efficient to begin with, and then stacking a lot on top of that doesn't sound right to me.
Not ignoring machete, just saying it has to be taken into account before you can compare it to other items. Besides that gold efficiency doesn't tell the whole story though. Outside of select cases someone with a finished warrior item is goint to outdeul a champ with devourer before they get it stacked. It's just straight up stronger early. That's it's niche. It doesn't scale, the other 3 do. Also consider the fact that magus was like 180% gold efficient but didn't break the game and was removed to be replaced with something that filled a different niche. Attack speed is just much stronger late.
I'm not saying it's not good, but you can't just look at gold efficiency and say it's stupid broken.
I'm not. Having my face smashed in by WW, Xin Zhao, Udyr & co. is what made me question the item and look up the gold efficiency in the first place.
Of course gold efficiency is not the be all end all of item power, but it's a pretty strong indicator.
Whenever I want to play a "fuck you" game I alternate between Nunu and Teeto top.
Pancakes
hot, steaming, as melted butter slips into the cracks, drizzled with sticky sweet syrup OH GOD
this is an interesting stat but i wish we had the same numbers from s4 to compare
it used to be so much worse too, his q would heal for so much more in lane
BreezyLimbo
Banned
ride the elo wave
Bad comparison, in my opinion, and if anything highlights my point.
There's still some balance space Riot can explore on lantern using sensible nerfs/changes, reducing the rank 1 range and increasing with rank for example. If Riot feels the need to go after Thresh's lantern they can. Dark Passage doesn't break the balancing on Thresh's kit.
Dark passage isn't broken, it's strong. If someone wants to argue that Thresh is broken, fine, I guess, I don't think so, but in the very least it'd be because of how the entire kit comes together and not because a single ability warps balance around it.
"Almost" is really, really generous. In a vacuum, Yasuo's wall is better than Braum's wall, full stop. Braums soaks damage except the first hit, Yasuo's cancels it. It's not a small difference in the least.
The test is very simple: if you get to late game (~40 mins+) but have Braum and Yasuo kept their respective walls at rank 1, which is more useful? It's not debatable. The fact that Braum has to rank his wall second starting mid-game in order for it to be good come late game is all that needs to be considered.
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