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League of Legends |OT9| Stealing Abilities From Inferior MOBAs since 2009
- Thread starter PhillipCostigan
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Ghost is Bad
Banned
ryze w is bullshit too.
and there's that bullshit invulnerability + that big ass aoe slow
and there's that bullshit invulnerability + that big ass aoe slow
BreezyLimbo
Banned
is he trying to downplay that they DQed a team for getting DDoSed?
key difference is that we're comparing an ultimate to a regular spell (i know i brought it up, but it was just an example of how incredibly low range her ult is)
lissandra's a squishy low range mage that has to get within adc aa range to use her ultimate. and she has (and had even before the nerfs) low damage comparatively to most mages, no poke and limited waveclear
it's a tradeoff
BreezyLimbo
Banned
>No poke
you're joking right
Her Q is one of the better skillshot pokes because it goes through minions. Her wave clear is also pretty damn good because of this fact. She has low damage because she was nerfed because she was toxic before it. And she has many ways to get close to the ADC.
range only matches other mages when extended and it was low damage even before the nerfs (which means bad poke and bad waveclear).
and she's not leblanc
she has one way of reaching adc that's telegraphed, slow, has no way out and involves her getting into an extremely risky position.
edit: also it's ridiculous that you think a spell going through minions means good poke. ori, azir, viktor, syndra, xerath, ahri, kog maw, all have extremely good poke that goes through minions. even ziggs can make his q bounce over minions with a bit of effort.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
and then they slightly buffed Q
It's still very good poke. (And her Q+W waveclear is pretty good.). And in a teamfight, it's easy reaching the adc. Leona stuns, you follow up, toxicity wins.
no?
they massively buffed her ult on top of that
and she was never a crazy winrate champion in either solo q or competitive
she did have really high banrates on both cos ppl overrated her
if you're gonna argue that pros only play or ban what's op, remember na rengar or lucian or whatever
people make mistakes at all levels of play
how is it still good poke?
and how is it lissandra's fault that your adc got combo'd by leona?
what are u even talking about
BreezyLimbo
Banned
you never talk about a champions effectiveness in a vacuum
that is a bad way of balancing
it's a team game
lissandra sucks 1v1, right now she's marginally better in team fights, before nerf she was OP in teamfights
that is a bad way of balancing
it's a team game
lissandra sucks 1v1, right now she's marginally better in team fights, before nerf she was OP in teamfights
so let's see
the "bullshit on click ultimate" we're now like ehh it's not so bad, it's only got adc average range and higher cooldown than orianna ultimate.
ok ultimate being targeted cc wasn't the bad thing
so it's her poke! but wait, her range is lower than most mages and only situationally comparable, and even then the damage is lower and it's not like she's xerath or ori or syndra that actually have more than one spell that deals long range damage or whatever. in that case it would really be embarrassing to compare damage, so maybe let's not.
so now it's her aoe in teamfights
you know how much her ult aoe damage in teamfights is? 350 (+0.7) at lvl 16
for comparison, lux ultimate deals 300 (+0.75) at level 6 and it has the same cooldown at level 6 than lizzy's does at 16. sure, it has no cc, but it's got 3400 range and like 60% the cd. similar spells like ziggs or viktor or whatever also deal more damage than lissandra and also take no risk whatsoever
ofc it's not only her ult but considering out of her other three spells two have really high cooldowns and the remaining one is again one of the weakest poke spells out of any mage i really really think you're running out of things to complain about
i mean lets consider her other 3 spells:
q - we already talked a lot about it, low damage, low range, low cc, long animation. it's got a really short cd but it's no ziggs q
w - very limited range and pretty high cooldown. it's got decent base damage (tho shit scaling) and the cc is really nice since it's instant, but this is not a high aoe damage spell
e - engage tool, very rarely you use this for damage on someone that's moving and it's got a shit ton of cd.
seriously, i think lissandra is one of the most overrated and overwhined champions in the game
the "bullshit on click ultimate" we're now like ehh it's not so bad, it's only got adc average range and higher cooldown than orianna ultimate.
ok ultimate being targeted cc wasn't the bad thing
so it's her poke! but wait, her range is lower than most mages and only situationally comparable, and even then the damage is lower and it's not like she's xerath or ori or syndra that actually have more than one spell that deals long range damage or whatever. in that case it would really be embarrassing to compare damage, so maybe let's not.
so now it's her aoe in teamfights
you know how much her ult aoe damage in teamfights is? 350 (+0.7) at lvl 16
for comparison, lux ultimate deals 300 (+0.75) at level 6 and it has the same cooldown at level 6 than lizzy's does at 16. sure, it has no cc, but it's got 3400 range and like 60% the cd. similar spells like ziggs or viktor or whatever also deal more damage than lissandra and also take no risk whatsoever
ofc it's not only her ult but considering out of her other three spells two have really high cooldowns and the remaining one is again one of the weakest poke spells out of any mage i really really think you're running out of things to complain about
i mean lets consider her other 3 spells:
q - we already talked a lot about it, low damage, low range, low cc, long animation. it's got a really short cd but it's no ziggs q
w - very limited range and pretty high cooldown. it's got decent base damage (tho shit scaling) and the cc is really nice since it's instant, but this is not a high aoe damage spell
e - engage tool, very rarely you use this for damage on someone that's moving and it's got a shit ton of cd.
seriously, i think lissandra is one of the most overrated and overwhined champions in the game
BreezyLimbo
Banned
That was ghost
its one of the bad things
she was played top lane in a time where melee tops were more popular, meaning her poke was a real problem
did you forget about her W? Before the nerf it was on a 60% ap ratio, and the fact that her combo used to be jump in, W, ult, Zhongyas made her incredibly powerful
apples to oranges
it's almost as if a champion is a sum of their abilities. But that's completely crazy~!
Vincent Alexander
Member
Got forced into Top in a Ranked. Played Ryze for first time. I kind of just smashed my face into my keyboard, mashed the shit out of buttons, and won my lane! I think I like Ryze.
Pancakes
hot, steaming, as melted butter slips into the cracks, drizzled with sticky sweet syrup OH GOD
You've basically mastered Ryze, enjoy.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Ryze is actually a good example
He became a real problem when he was taken top consistently that they've had to nerf and change him over and over again. Against someone like azir ryze will get zoned the hell out of, but against someone like irelia or riven he can do the zoning.
Lissandra suffered the same problem before they nerfed her. She was meh in mid lane but a problem in top lane because her CC prevented top lanes from being able to harass properly
He became a real problem when he was taken top consistently that they've had to nerf and change him over and over again. Against someone like azir ryze will get zoned the hell out of, but against someone like irelia or riven he can do the zoning.
Lissandra suffered the same problem before they nerfed her. She was meh in mid lane but a problem in top lane because her CC prevented top lanes from being able to harass properly
imo lissandra was a classic case of riot giving it to ppl's outcry in a the worst of ways, essentially olafing a champion that actually made the game varied and interesting (remember double ap being an actual strategy that doesn't include rumble?)
all they had to do is slightly buff dorans shield passive or whatever
she wasn't even that good at poking since like i've said already a billion times, her q doesn't deal that much damage and her mana costs are really high
and in competitive ppl dealt with her pretty easily by forcing 2v1s and only players i remember actually being any good at her were huni from fnatic and smeb from koo, so it's not like she was hot shit there either
actually pulling that off required some skill and coordination which is why she never had a crazy winrate in solo q and why pros like dyrus, balls and link were embarrassing to watch but someone like smeb was like art
like hyperscaling but also being a lane bully top
or having all point and click spells
or building tank and destroying your team once he gets some items
or like having free stats in like every spell
all they had to do is slightly buff dorans shield passive or whatever
this was the real reason she was nerfed and like i said, overreaction from the community. she was squishy af, her poke patterns forced her to push waves which isn't great for a squishy toplaner with a very telegraphed escape and she never had a decent enough winrate to actually be considered a problem. like i said, give away 20 cs and you've survived lane against lissandra. it's not that hard.
she wasn't even that good at poking since like i've said already a billion times, her q doesn't deal that much damage and her mana costs are really high
and in competitive ppl dealt with her pretty easily by forcing 2v1s and only players i remember actually being any good at her were huni from fnatic and smeb from koo, so it's not like she was hot shit there either
pls, it has 450 range
the sum of her abilities is a champion that's really good at breaking into a teamfight and stunning on person but pretty bad at everything else (like i said, tradeoffs)
actually pulling that off required some skill and coordination which is why she never had a crazy winrate in solo q and why pros like dyrus, balls and link were embarrassing to watch but someone like smeb was like art
ryze was problematic in mid lane a million times too for many more reasons than lissandra
like hyperscaling but also being a lane bully top
or having all point and click spells
or building tank and destroying your team once he gets some items
or like having free stats in like every spell
BreezyLimbo
Banned
her nerfs were justified
easy to shut down in coordinated play, toxic in solo play
down with lissandra
easy to shut down in coordinated play, toxic in solo play
down with lissandra
killatopak
Gold Member
Ryze was legit op at top lane. All he had to do was build tanky like fh and roa and it would still deal loads of damage.
Ghost is Bad
Banned
actually ryze kept getting nerfed because if he was strong he was impossible to play around because he became a tanky, high dps, healing, high move speed lockdown monster that no one could duel or teamfight against.
the latest iteration of ryze is an exaggeration of those traits (wtf infinite snares/spell vamp) but it's pretty much the same throughout every patch ryze was strong.
the latest iteration of ryze is an exaggeration of those traits (wtf infinite snares/spell vamp) but it's pretty much the same throughout every patch ryze was strong.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
azir has a 45% winrate right now across all modes
viktor has a 49% winrate right now across all modes
better buff azir cause he's not powerful or anything
better buff viktor cause he's not powerful or anything
I like Lissandra but she's a weird champion to balance. Unique kit in that she's like a mage/assassin hybrid
Definitely needs some kind of help, not sure what though. Old Lissandra was pretty overbearing, though I'm guessing she doesn't fare well against these CC heavy engage/disengage comps
Definitely needs some kind of help, not sure what though. Old Lissandra was pretty overbearing, though I'm guessing she doesn't fare well against these CC heavy engage/disengage comps
winrate is not the only metric which is why i've gone through every point you've made on why the issues you mention with lissandra are overreactions or misconceptions
azir and viktor don't have tradeoffs for their opness
lissandra did
i've already given you plenty of reasons why you're wrong
stop playing dumb
i think it was a big mistake from riot. they could've done a slight buff to doran's shield or whatever if they thought she was too overbearing. hurting a mage's main spell is directly gutting them
and hey, i'm not saying it wasn't obnoxious to play against someone that's constantly poking you out, but people piled onto her like it was a mage's issue or like it was a lissandra issue when actually riven or renekton in their prime could do the exact same to you while being melee. just sit between minions and zone you out or force trades that you just couldn't win
a lane bully is a lane bully, being a good player means adapting to each champion and knowing when you're weak and when you're strong and being patient to take that and create an advantage. doesn't mean that champions shouldn't be nerfed when they're op, ofc, but a champion being annoying isn't the only reason to nerf them.
like, teemo's annoying but you can work around teemo
enemy team picks lissandra, their team now has no tank and no bruisers. take advantage of that
BreezyLimbo
Banned
But I'm not wrong. Me saying that Lissandra has incredible CC and damage for being a mobile mage that was played top and amazingly countered other melee champions at top isn't wrong.
zkylon lissandra is toxic.
And I brought up azirs and viks winrates because if you rate how strong a champion is through their winrate is well..fallible.
.....buff a dorans shield. An item against melee, because lissandra is overbearing.
never get into balancing zkylon
every mage has incredible cc and damage
except lissandra's damage (both dps and burst) isn't so hot and her range is among the lowest in the game
and she's not a mobile mage, she has a one use per fight dash that's slow and telegraphed and that's it. zed is mobile, leblanc is mobile, ahri's mobile. lissandra just has that one dash that she wouldn't work without because none of her spells have more than 800 range
it's tradeoffs, dude
since when????
http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Doran's_Shield
ctrl+f melee pls
except lissandra's damage (both dps and burst) isn't so hot and her range is among the lowest in the game
and she's not a mobile mage, she has a one use per fight dash that's slow and telegraphed and that's it. zed is mobile, leblanc is mobile, ahri's mobile. lissandra just has that one dash that she wouldn't work without because none of her spells have more than 800 range
it's tradeoffs, dude
wat
since when????
http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Doran's_Shield
ctrl+f melee pls
BreezyLimbo
Banned
I'm sorry since when was a dorans shield an item against mages
never get into game design
single target
all of lissandras moves are aoe except her ults single target damage component
you know that right
(In fact I'm pretty sure nobody ever gets a dorans shield as a starting item, it's just not worth it)
make it reduce half the damage against aoe
make it reduce the same damage against aoe but make it so that it puts it in a short cooldown. maybe it could have two different passives so that you still keep the aa resistance
or maybe you just reduce more dmg from spells and less from autos
make it 40g cheaper so you can buy an extra potion
tune all of these so it's not abused midlane
i dunno, come up with something!
also dorans shield was always an item against ranged harass because it gives health, hp5 and reduces damage from basic attacks which is where a lot of the ranged harass comes from against melees. it's very good to sustain through ranged harass, tho obviously more effective against champions like vladimir than lissandra, but there's no reason the item can't be tweaked to make top lane a more fair place for melees vs ranged (if it was needed, which i actually don't think it was)
just checked champion.gg, it's the most popular start on mundo, zac, sion, garen and shen
it's interesting that only manaless champions seem to buy it
maybe they should give it a bit of mana regen then, open it up for the malphites and the nautiluses
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Dorans shield sucks.
And buffing dorans shield so they'd be free to buff lissandra would cause more problems than fix lissandras problems.
But dorans shield is just so shitty.
again, it's better and easier to just nerf lissandra than to buff dorans shield and worry about everyone that affects. nerfing lissandra affects just lissandra. buffing dorans shield affects everyone.
Ghost is Bad
Banned
here's how to buff dolans shield 4 everyone
dolan's handout: blocks 16 damage from all ranged autoattacks. single target spells have a 15% chance of being blocked for 16 damage.
oh yeah and it also gives 10 armor now. gl.
dolan's handout: blocks 16 damage from all ranged autoattacks. single target spells have a 15% chance of being blocked for 16 damage.
oh yeah and it also gives 10 armor now. gl.
msg probably got mixed up in all this back and forth
i'm not saying riot should buff doran's shield now, i'm saying that's what they should've done back then (maybe not even that, but i think it would've been a good compromise).
right now they should just straight up buff lissandra in a not bizarro way. give her damage, she's a freaking mage, she needs to be able to kill shit
well my stance is that she didn't deserved being nerfed in the first place so imo it's either buff an item a little bit that helps other champions out or just don't do anything about it
this is me being like "i agree she was annoying so let's at least throw people a bone", but i most definitely 100% think she was gutted for no reason at all
Ghost is Bad
Banned
did someone say bizzaro?
bizzaro flame is a known super smash brothers melee player famed for his ganondorf play, his heavy use of "stylish" KOs and of course his use of ganondorf's infamous up-tilt in order to kill opponents.
bizzaro flame is a known super smash brothers melee player famed for his ganondorf play, his heavy use of "stylish" KOs and of course his use of ganondorf's infamous up-tilt in order to kill opponents.
Vincent Alexander
Member
w00t! Who needs a stupid champion mastery emblem anywho.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
disgusting
Vincent Alexander
Member
Is it bad I don't recognize her?
killatopak
Gold Member
I use it on Garen and Renek pretty much all of the time. Defensive masteries and shield reduces a good amount of damage early game. It's also a good item against harass heavy champs. I don't know about Garen after rework though.
Not really. I thought it was Soraka at first but she didn't have her unicorn. It doesn't help that nobody has officially seen what she looks like inside her mask helmet thingy. It's liss tho if you don't already know.
Vincent Alexander
Member
Crazy. Never realized. And lordy. I made the mistake of googling Lissandra then going to "Images" without my adult content block on. Woo.
Got to try Skarner. Feels simultaneously strong and underwhelming at the same time. Love the idea of an objective control raid boss, but the zones need much more thinking and effort than what's gone into them. As is the rework is half-baked and should be put back in the queue until they figure out something that actually accomplishes their stated goals. If a team decides they need their jungler to be a tank who possesses strong objective control, they aren't going to pick Skarner, and that's the most damning thing at all.
there's a weird lizzy x zyra fanart thing going on lately, but lizzy's pretty safe
now try ahri lol
killatopak
Gold Member
I think the only logical reason to think that Liss is OP is because when she was deemed OP, the assassin meta was still going strong. That means Kata, Fizz and Zed mid was countered like hell by Lissandra. That frustrated people so they nerfed her to the ground.
I like Lissandra. She was once my most difficult yet most fun to go against champ when all I played was Riven top lane. There were so many juking potential and outplays that even if I lost I still had fun. Now that she's just a shell of her former self, it's not even that interesting anymore. Worse than that, nobody even plays her top lane anymore.
You know what to do when mid abandons a champ and even top lane can't salvage her? Buff the fuck out of her. The only role I can see her doing well right now is support. She has tons of cc and her ult allows her adc to pummel the opposing adc for free.
Try searching Schoolgirl Ahri at youtube. Some of the videos lead to NSFW ones.
I like Lissandra. She was once my most difficult yet most fun to go against champ when all I played was Riven top lane. There were so many juking potential and outplays that even if I lost I still had fun. Now that she's just a shell of her former self, it's not even that interesting anymore. Worse than that, nobody even plays her top lane anymore.
You know what to do when mid abandons a champ and even top lane can't salvage her? Buff the fuck out of her. The only role I can see her doing well right now is support. She has tons of cc and her ult allows her adc to pummel the opposing adc for free.
Try searching Schoolgirl Ahri at youtube. Some of the videos lead to NSFW ones.
Peanut Butter
Member
Try searching sexy Kha'zix. NSFW city.
Royal Guacamole
Member
Well I just read this long exchange from High Monarch Breezy of the Whine Kingdom and Prince(ss) Zkylon, the Lusty.
And I would like to formally make my introduction to this community with a corrosive post and say
that
although both sides have some pretty weird arguments, Lissandra is stanky shit to play and play against and needs to be erased tomorrow if possible.
Thank you all for fueling my thirst for drama and rabid League discussion in my time of lurking.
And I would like to formally make my introduction to this community with a corrosive post and say
that
although both sides have some pretty weird arguments, Lissandra is stanky shit to play and play against and needs to be erased tomorrow if possible.
Thank you all for fueling my thirst for drama and rabid League discussion in my time of lurking.
if im gonna be addressed as princess i want to be princess zkylana
i don't think assassins were the reason lizzy got nerfed, i think it was more top laners and adcs and meta being in her favor for once in her life.
just play annie, more damage, more lane presence, better scaling with support and ap items
i don't think assassins were the reason lizzy got nerfed, i think it was more top laners and adcs and meta being in her favor for once in her life.
killatopak
Gold Member
Isn't Kha'zix already naked officially?
Annie desperately needs a flash for a good initiate. Once flash is down, she has to play a bit defensively and allow the enemy to come into range.
Liss can at least surprise people without using her flash by using her mobility in a bush or fog of war so as to not telegraph her initiate.
Not saying annie is subpar compared with lissandra but they all have their niche.
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