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[gamz]

Pittsburg was 2 years ago before losing to Mets.

Yeah, I was just going to edit my post. Lol

I like to think the Mets series never happened.

 

[17 Seconds]

Yeah, I was just going to edit my post. Lol

I like to think the Mets series never happened.

i'm sure mets fans still value it, but you're right, i always forget about it

 

[bebop242]

Roberts was asked if he was worried about letting the series get away. He states that he thinks it was once in a lifetime thing and that teams can't do that anymore.

This along with the letting off the gas petal a little last night and that BS with the Granderson strike out.

He's testing things...

 

[Caja 117]

This is dumb, momentum in baseball doesn't really exist and the cubs chances of winning this series are still miniscule. it's just nice not to get swept

No need for insults.

Momentum in baseball doesnt exist? Go tell that to the Yanks in 2004 and to the indians this year or last year.

Yes the cubs chances are very small, but as a team that are one win from advancing, failing to put away the opposing team can little by little affect the team confidence.

 

[17 Seconds]

No need for insults.

Momentum in baseball doesnt exist? Go tell that to the Yanks in 2004 and to the indians this year or last year.

Yes the cubs chances are very small, but as a team that are one win from advancing failing to put away the opposing team can little by little affect the team confidence.

i didn't call you dumb. how do teams like those prove momentum? if the yankees lost momentum after going up 3-0, then how did momentum matter in the first place? everybody has "momentum" until they don't.

the reality is that the cubs could win 4 straight, but it won't be because winning game 4 made them better or stronger. calling stuff like that momentum is just trying to assign meaning to the random nature of baseball.

 

[Sanjuro]

Just heard about a fan supercut of Joe Buck TV series promos during the postseason.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1450251

Mother of god.

 

[17 Seconds]

i've always wondered how embarrassed he is during those. i always feel like muting the tv because it's so painfully awkward.

 

[Caja 117]

i didn't call you dumb. how do teams like those prove momentum? if the yankees lost momentum after going up 3-0, then how did momentum matter in the first place? everybody has "momentum" until they don't.

the reality is that the cubs could win 4 straight, but it won't be because winning game 4 made them better or stronger. calling stuff like that momentum is just trying to assign meaning to the random nature of baseball.

You call what I think is Dumb ergo you are calling me Dumb. Momentun is something intagible such as clutch or confidence these are things you cant prove are present. And momentun is not something that get lost, is something that shift to one team to the other.

And I never said winning game 4 will make them stronger and better, I said Dodgers cant let the Cubs take the series back to LA giving the potential pitching matchup in game 6.

 

[17 Seconds]

most things that can't be proven aren't real

 

[clav]

i didn't call you dumb. how do teams like those prove momentum? if the yankees lost momentum after going up 3-0, then how did momentum matter in the first place? everybody has "momentum" until they don't.

the reality is that the cubs could win 4 straight, but it won't be because winning game 4 made them better or stronger. calling stuff like that momentum is just trying to assign meaning to the random nature of baseball.

Agreed.

A lot of sport writers associate momentum to describe games, but the word is ultimately useless to quantify as it is used to paint a story.

Reminds me what one of my classmates said nearly 10 years ago. Then he proceeded to draw pitching graphs for fun in his free time, met with team owners, pondered about taking an opportunity vs. finishing a degree, and now works for the Cubs.

 

[Caja 117]

most things that can't be proven aren't real

Yet you see them happening every day in sports just before your eyes.

 

[17 Seconds]

Yet you see them happening every day in sports just before your eyes.

no you don't. you just see events play out. you're just trying to assign a narrative to it, because that's human nature. like how a-rod was the most unclutch player ever.... until he wasn't.

 

[Caja 117]

no you don't. you just see events play out. you're just trying to assign a narrative to it, because that's human nature. like how a-rod was the most unclutch player ever.... until he wasn't.

You see a team leading by 8 run in a game and loosing said lead regardless on what they try, thats momentun shift, everything that was going right to that team start going wrong (good pitchhers giving up runs, good defenders making errors, etc) while the other team everything they do works, this is a simple concept, is a basic description on whats going on.

 

[17 Seconds]

You see a team leading by 8 run in a game and loosing said lead regardless on what they try, thats momentun shift, everything that was going right to that team start going wrong (good pitchhers giving up runs, good defenders making errors, etc) while the other team everything they do works, this is a simple concept, is a basic description on whats going on.

you're looking at results and assuming they will continue heading that way because.... reasons? the dodgers had won 6 straight postseason games, that wasn't enough momentum to win last night? the cubs won because the previous games were all irrelevant to that particular game.

 

[Malo]

You see a team leading by 8 run in a game and loosing said lead regardless on what they try, thats momentun shift, everything that was going right to that team start going wrong (good pitchhers giving up runs, good defenders making errors, etc) while the other team everything they do works, this is a simple concept, is a basic description on whats going on.

If momentum was a thing in baseball, the Yankees would have been swept by tht Indians in the ALDS.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

You see a team leading by 8 run in a game and loosing said lead regardless on what they try, thats momentun shift, everything that was going right to that team start going wrong (good pitchhers giving up runs, good defenders making errors, etc) while the other team everything they do works, this is a simple concept, is a basic description on whats going on.

If it's completely unpredictable and can turn on a dime from one play to another, does it even really exist?

Momentum, like grit or intangibles or heart is just a way for people to try and assign meaning to the completely unpredictable nature of baseball, where a team like the dodgers can win like 41 out of 50 games, and then proceed to lose 17 out of 18.

 

[Tall4Life]

If momentum was a thing in baseball, the Yankees would have been swept by tht Indians in the ALDS.

but it does exist because the yankees then had the momentum to come back, as did the red sox in 2004 when Good Guy Ortiz defeated A "Literally Hitler 2.0" Roid

 

[Tall4Life]

also did the cavs not have momentum when they came back 3-1

 

[Malo]

but it does exist because the yankees then had the momentum to come back, as did the red sox in 2004 when Good Guy Ortiz defeated A "Literally Hitler 2.0" Roid

Don't know what you're talking about. Baseball was cancelled that year.

 

[17 Seconds]

i wonder if indians fans are content with their momentum championships from the WS last year and alds this year.

 

[JoseDFrog]

So if both World Series teams get there with the same momentum, do they end up with a tied series?

 

[Caja 117]

you're looking at results and assuming they will continue heading that way because.... reasons? the dodgers had won 6 straight postseason games, that wasn't enough momentum to win last night? the cubs won because the previous games were all irrelevant to that particular game.

you're looking at results and assuming they will continue heading that way because.... reasons? the dodgers had won 6 straight postseason games, that wasn't enough momentum to win last night? the cubs won because the previous games were all irrelevant to that particular game.

Forget about me mentioning momentun as you just dont believe in it, so its a waste of time debating about it, and lets go to my point I was making:

First off, my first comment was Dodgers cant let the Cubs take this back to Dodgers stadium, I made this comment way before Cubs won game 4, I didnt made this because the Cubs won.

Second, Is the match up of game 6 Im scared off, I have more confidence on Lester pitching than Hill pitching.

And if by any chance game 7 happens I just think Dodgers are going to be too demoralized to win it (im not sure if you believe in a team be demoralized or not, if you dont, ignore that)

If momentum was a thing in baseball, the Yankees would have been swept by tht Indians in the ALDS.

Thats why it shift to one side to other. Tu sabe no te haga.

 

[Big Blue]

i didn't call you dumb. how do teams like those prove momentum? if the yankees lost momentum after going up 3-0, then how did momentum matter in the first place? everybody has "momentum" until they don't.

the reality is that the cubs could win 4 straight, but it won't be because winning game 4 made them better or stronger. calling stuff like that momentum is just trying to assign meaning to the random nature of baseball.

Confidence and comfort in a cerebral sport like baseball matters. So momentum may not be the right word for it, but the phenomenon exists.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Confidence and comfort in a cerebral sport like baseball matters. So momentum may not be the right word for it, but the phenomenon exists.

The phenomenon you are describing is just baseball. That's the nature of the sport. It's a sport where the best teams still lose 60-70 times a year. Where the best hitters fail 70% of the time. Where the best team in the world can lose to the worst team on any given night. A team can win 3-4 games in a row and look like world beaters, and then proceed to lose a bunch of games in a row for a variety of reasons, maybe the matchups become unfavorable, maybe their SP have a couple bad outings, maybe their hitters have a few bad games in a row, maybe their bullpen tires out, all of which are things that happen ALL THE TIME over the course of a season, so why would it shock anybody if it happened during the playoffs?

 

[Beckx]

next on 538: MOMENTUM IS REAL AND WE'VE MEASURED IT MATHMATICALLY

 

[Caja 117]

The phenomenon you are describing is just baseball. That's the nature of the sport. It's a sport where the best teams still lose 60-70 times a year. Where the best hitters fail 70% of the time. Where the best team in the world can lose to the worst team on any given night. A team can win 3-4 games in a row and look like world beaters, and then proceed to lose a bunch of games in a row for a variety of reasons, maybe the matchups become unfavorable, maybe their SP have a couple bad outings, maybe their hitters have a few bad games in a row, maybe their bullpen tires out, all of which are things that happen ALL THE TIME over the course of a season, so why would it shock anybody if it happened during the playoffs?

So what you are saying is that things like confidence is not something that affect a baseball player performance?

 

[br3wnor]

As the Sports Pope likes to say “Momentum in baseball is the next game’s starting pitcher”

That’s basically it. You can be hot as a blowtorch hitting and you run into a few great pitching performances and it gets shut down. Look at Altuve, guy was hitting .500 before game 3, he’s been abysmal since. I like to believe in ‘momentum’ as a fan, but if Verlander goes out there tomorrow and throws up another 9IP 13K performance, we’re fucked, doesn’t matter that the team has been rocking past 3 games.

I agree that as pressure mounts against a team that’s backsliding in the playoffs, they could play tight and start making mistakes, but if their pitcher is rolling then they have a great chance to win the game.

 

[Caja 117]

As the Sports Pope likes to say “Momentum in baseball is the next game’s starting pitcher”

That’s basically it. You can be hot as a blowtorch hitting and you run into a few great pitching performances and it gets shut down. Look at Altuve, guy was hitting .500 before game 3, he’s been abysmal since. I like to believe in ‘momentum’ as a fan, but if Verlander goes out there tomorrow and throws up another 9IP 13K performance, we’re fucked, doesn’t matter that the team has been rocking past 3 games.

I agree that as pressure mounts against a team that’s backsliding in the playoffs, they could play tight and start making mistakes, but if their pitcher is rolling then they have a great chance to win the game.

Im really dreaming of a Yankees vs Dodgers WS, Dodgers are my childhood team and Im a yanks fan. But after 2004 I basically trasform into Toth in the playoff...so my take is Yanks will loose 2 straight and the Dodgers will barely make it, making the Astro this year Champions.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

So what you are saying is that things like confidence is not something that affect a baseball player performance?

On an individual level sure, but, for example, do you think the Dodgers couldn't hit Arriata yesterday because they weren't confident? Or was he simply better than they were?

 

[Caja 117]

On an individual level sure, but, for example, do you think the Dodgers couldn't hit Arriata yesterday because they weren't confident? Or was he simply better than they were?

Hmmm, This is what is tricky to give you a one answer response but my take is that Arrietta was better, but not just because Dodgers couldnt get to it, but also Arrieta went to the mound with purpouse. Except for Granderson, he is just garbage.

 

[disillusion386]

Hmmm, This is what is tricky to give you a one answer response but my take is that Arrietta was better, but not just because Dodgers couldnt get to it, but also Arrieta went to the mound with purpouse. Except for Granderson, he is just garbage.

Man, I really don't want to add to the dogpile, but when you say something like that, it's hard to take it seriously. What athlete goes up to play in a postseason game without the purpose of winning? Your perception of the game is based on feelings while people are looking at it from actual data.

 

[Caja 117]

Man, I really don't want to add to the dogpile, but when you say something like that, it's hard to take it seriously. What athlete goes up to play in a postseason game without the purpose of winning? Your perception of the game is based on feelings while people are looking at it from actual data.

When I say purpouse i meant to say he pitched knowing what was on the line, some player perform differently depending on what situation they are in, and In my opinion pitching in a potential elimination game is different than pitching in a normal game regardless if the goal is to win in both cases.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

When I say purpouse i meant to say he pitched knowing what was on the line, some player perform differently depending on what situation they are in, and In my opinion pitching in a potential elimination game is different than pitching in a normal game regardless if the goal is to win in both cases.

I think he's a really good pitcher and pitched like a really good pitcher.

 

[Caja 117]

I think he's a really good pitcher and pitched like a really good pitcher.

Indeed, but like you said some times SP have bad outing, this time he had a good one in a critical situation.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Indeed, but like you said some times SP have bad outing, this time he had a good one in a critical situation.

True, but again, that's a part of baseball. I just don't see the point in trying to climb into these guys heads to try and ascribe narratives to why they were successful. Example, Justin Turner has been absolutely Ruth-ian this post season. IF he all of a sudden turns around and goes ice cold over the next three games, will it be because he choked, or shrunk under the pressure? Or will it be because hitting really well for 7 games and then not so well over the next 3-4 is something that the even the best hitters do regularly over the course of a season?

 

[disillusion386]

When I say purpouse i meant to say he pitched knowing what was on the line, some player perform differently depending on what situation they are in, and In my opinion pitching in a potential elimination game is different than pitching in a normal game regardless if the goal is to win in both cases.

So let me ask you, do you think then that the Dodgers didn't know what was on the line in a game that could potentially take them to the WS? By that same token, does that mean that the individual Cubs players playing in games 1 to 3 didn't know what was on the line in those first three games?

 

[Caja 117]

True, but again, that's a part of baseball. I just don't see the point in trying to climb into these guys heads to try and ascribe narratives to why they were successful. Example, Justin Turner has been absolutely Ruth-ian this post season. IF he all of a sudden turns around and goes ice cold over the next three games, will it be because he choked, or shrunk under the pressure? Or will it be because hitting really well for 7 games and then not so well over the next 3-4 is something that the even the best hitters do regularly over the course of a season?

Batters do get cold or hot indeed, and thats baseball, but, more than any of the major sports, the player mindset is part of the success or failures of a player and if the presure of doing good start piling he could start doing worst, you see this get tangible as batters or pitchers without knowing start doing things that they usually dont do like go after pitches, tweeking their mechanics etc.

Tell me this, Judger broke the recod for consecutive games striking out, do you believe this just happened because of the matchups or also because Judge was also presuring himself to avoid it?

So let me ask you, do you think then that the Dodgers didn't know what was on the line in a game that could potentially take them to the WS? By that same token, does that mean that the individual Cubs players playing in games 1 to 3 didn't know what was on the line in those first three games?

You cant possible equate an elimination game like that, one team has room to breathe, the other doesnt they both want to win but their situattions are different as thus they aproach the game in a different manner.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Tell me this, Judger broke the recod for consecutive games striking out, do you believe this just happened because of the matchups or also because Judge was also presuring himself to avoid it?

I believe it happened because teams and pitchers started adjusting to him and learning how to better pitch to him, and then Judge adjusted right back. I don't know if he was pressuring himself, because you can't even begin to quantify or create a metric that measures what goes on inside of a player's brain. I'm not discounting that there is 100% a mental aspect to baseball, I'm saying there is no way for us as observers to separate the mental from the physical in terms of player productivity and performance, so it's better to focus on what we can actually quantify, the actual productivity, whether it's happening because a player is "confident" or just simply good, rather than to try and ascribe neat little narratives to every situation, like "So and so is a gamer!" and "So and so is a choker".

 

[Caja 117]

I believe it happened because teams and pitchers started adjusting to him and learning how to better pitch to him, and then Judge adjusted right back. I don't know if he was pressuring himself, because you can't even begin to quantify or create a metric that measures what goes on inside of a player's brain.

But is not about measuring or quantifying, is about basic human nature, these players are not robots and their mindset do affect their performance.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

But is not about measuring or quantifying, is about basic human nature, these players are not robots and their mindset do affect their performance.

But what I'm saying is we cannot and will not ever know what is going on in their minds, so how can we begin to determine if what is going on in their minds is in anyway affecting what we see on the field? Did Aaron Judge strike out in 40 straight games or whatever it was because he couldn't handle the pressure? Or was pressing? Or is it that he was supremely confident in every one of those ABs but better pitchers simply got the best of him?

 

[clav]

At this rate, I don't even know if you're trolling because your profile says you work in finance.

Do you have any interest in sabermetrics?

 

[Caja 117]

But what I'm saying is we cannot and will not ever know what is going on in their minds, so how can we begin to determine if what is going on in their minds is in anyway affecting what we see on the field? Did Aaron Judge strike out in 40 straight games or whatever it was because he couldn't handle the pressure? Or was pressing? Or is it that he was supremely confident in every one of those ABs but better pitchers simply got the best of him?

He was pressing alright, it showed on his stance and swings. We will never know whats going on their mind but you can try and understand what could be happening to understand the why and how it, not everything in sports has to be quantified into numbers, especifically baseball where sometimes strikes and balls are assisted by the umpires. Watching baseball trying to quantify into numbers everything that goes on just take the fun out of it and you might as well read box scores and statcast to see a baseball game.

At this rate, I don't even know if you're trolling because your profile says you work in finance.

Do you have any interest in sabermetrics?

What does my job has anything to do with baseball? I been a baseball fan way before I even tought about a carreer, so the way i view baseball has no correlation to my proffesional carreer, and I understand and respect sabermetics I just dont care about them that much, because it makes the game less fun imo.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

He was pressing alright, it showed on his stance and swings. We will never know whats going on their mind but you can try and understand what could be happening to understand the why and how it, not everything in sports has to be quantified into numbers, especifically baseball where sometimes strikes and balls are assisted by the umpires. Watching baseball trying to quantify into numbers everything that goes on just take the fun out of it and you might as well read box scores and statcast to see a baseball game.

If you admit that we can never know what is going on in their minds how can we begin to understand it and try and apply it to analyzing the game? Why not focus on what we do know, which is pressing or not, Aaron Judge was having trouble adjusting to fastballs up in the zone and sliders, which is something that actually can be quantified and measured?

 

[clav]

What does my job has anything to do with baseball? I been a baseball fan way before I even tought about a carrer, sonthe way i view baseball has no correlation to my proffesional carreer, and I understand and respect sabermetics I just dont care about them that much, because it makes the game less fun imo.

Charts + graphs?

Numbers?

No interest?

 

[disillusion386]

You cant possible equate an elimination game like that, one team has room to breathe, the other doesnt they both want to win but their situattions are different as thus they aproach the game in a different manner.

But why can't I? You're trying to get into these players' heads so why can't I attempt to do the same thing for the Dodgers who have made the postseason five years in a row with nothing to show for?

No, what I saw last night was Jake Arrieta doing Jake Arrieta things. I also saw good Justin Turner and Yasiel Puig at-bats with a bullpen that still didn't give up a run. The Dodgers lost, but the main difference in approach that I saw was on the manager's side and how Dave Roberts put his lineup together. I can understand putting in your older bench guys to give them at-bats in a real game and maybe eke out a win. What do you expect was going to happen when you put guys like Ethier, Granderson, and Utley all in the same lineup?

 

[Caja 117]

Charts + graphs?

Numbers?

No interest?

Not at all, i separate work from pleasure. I have to go trough a lot of analisis of numbers and statistics from monday trough saturday, thats the last thing i want to do when Im out from work, same with Computers, Im in front of one almost 10 hours a day at work, For that same reason I dont have a laptop or desktop. Im weird I know.

But why can't I? You're trying to get into these players' heads so why can't I attempt to do the same thing for the Dodgers who have made the postseason five years in a row with nothing to show for?

No, what I saw last night was Jake Arrieta doing Jake Arrieta things. I also saw good Justin Turner and Yasiel Puig at-bats with a bullpen that still didn't give up a run. The Dodgers lost, but the main difference in approach that I saw was on the manager's side and how Dave Roberts put his lineup together. I can understand putting in your older bench guys to give them at-bats in a real game and maybe eke out a win. What do you expect was going to happen when you put guys like Ethier, Granderson, and Utley all in the same lineup?

So, are you saying that Robert made a lineup considering their playof situation? do you think Roberts would had put the same lineup if his team was about to get eliminated?

If you admit that we can never know what is going on in their minds how can we begin to understand it and try and apply it to analyzing the game? Why not focus on what we do know, which is pressing or not, Aaron Judge was having trouble adjusting to fastballs up in the zone and sliders, which is something that actually can be quantified and measured?

This all started because I mentioned the word momentun, I will never utter such words in this forum ever again. I wont continue this debate as you can see I view baseball in a different way that we dont agree to.

 

[disillusion386]

So, are you saying that Robert made a lineup considering their playof situation? do you think Roberts would had put the same lineup if his team was about to get eliminated?

I am indeed, and a manager's decisions on who to play are a hell of a lot different than nebulous concepts, like momentum and playing with purpose, that you're ascribing to players.

 

[Caja 117]

I am indeed, and a manager's decisions on who to play are a hell of a lot different than nebulous concepts, like momentum and playing with purpose, that you're ascribing to players.

Like I said my mistake was mentioning Momentun, I know better now not to do that again it is clear that we have a different way on how we see and enjoy baseball.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Like I said my mistake was mentioning Momentun, I know better now not to do that again it is clear that we have a different way on how we see and enjoy baseball.

It's because momentum is this weird concept, especially in sport (much like "heart" or "grit") that really means nothing. If the Dodgers win tonight did they snatch momentum back? If the Cubs win are they riding the wave of momentum from yesterday? If each outcome is equally likely, does it really matter? It's just trying to ascribe meaning or narrative to the relatively unpredictable nature of baseball and sports in general.

 

[Caja 117]

It's because momentum is this weird concept, especially in sport (much like "heart" or "grit") that really means nothing. If the Dodgers win tonight did they snatch momentum back? If the Cubs win are they riding the wave of momentum from yesterday? If each outcome is equally likely, does it really matter? It's just trying to ascribe meaning or narrative to the relatively unpredictable nature of baseball and sports in general.

Well thats how I grew up to enjoy baseball, it part of whats makes the game fun for me.