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[Crimson_Echidna]

No they are, they're willingly engaging in hiring children to fight for their own selfish cause and have committed so many human rights violations throughout the course of the series that I don't understand how anyone can go outright and try to protect Tekkadan and even support their actions throughout the course of the series.

It is such an oxymoron that for a group that despises being used and treated like human garbage and disposable resources, that they hire and utilize the same tactics on the propaganda that it's for their sake and future. And somehow that makes it okay, just cause we're kids too? That Orga willingly puts children under 12 at risk, at war, just for their own selfish ideals.

You see, I forgot where Tekkadan goes out and buys slaves and force them into servitude in order to service their needs.

Is it completely okay for go on a temper tantrum of revenge when other parties in the series that face the same kind of losses and are caught in the fire aren't going out killing members of other organizations?

And yet your conveniently underselling that Jasley was murdering in his own coworkers in order to make a powergrab for himself. Or the Gjallahorn that you keep trying to prop up attempted to murder the CGS members all in the name of getting rid of a potential Political Threat. But naw, total double standard on Tekkadan's part for having the gall to fight back.

Are these the actions of a legitimate group, recognized by world leaders and governments? No. This is state sponsored terrorism by a faction of the current leading police group of the series universe, Ghallarjorn.

And this is where I officially call bullshit. Your entire stance relies on the basis of sweeping all of Gjallahorn's multiple war crimes under the rug because they're a sanctioned military task force.

You're arguing under this misguided belief that the narrative, and fans, are treating Tekkadan like some type of Freedom Fighters, which is not case. They're cold-blooded killers, no one is denying it. But trying to spin it as they're the true villains of the series is a bunch of bullshit, sorry.

 

[Principate]

You see, I forgot where Tekkadan goes out and buys slaves and force them into servitude in order to service their needs.



And yet your conveniently underselling that Jasley was murdering in his own coworkers in order to make a powergrab for himself. Or the Gjallahorn that you keep trying to prop up attempted to murder the CGS members all in the name of getting rid of a potential Political Threat. But naw, total double standard on Tekkadan's part for having the gall to fight back.



And this is where I officially call bullshit. Your entire stance relies on the basis of sweeping all of Gjallahorn's multiple war crimes under the rug because they're a sanctioned military task force.

You're arguing under this misguided belief that the narrative, and fans, are treating Tekkadan like some type of Freedom Fighters, which is not case. They're cold-blooded killers, no one is denying it. But trying to spin it as they're the true villains of the series is a bunch of bullshit, sorry.

I don't think they're the true villains but I don't think there's a positive end game for them and I also don't think they're a fundamentally good force. Best case scenario they're fascist dictators of mars, another case they continue being mercenaries (essentially going from battle to battle, war to war). The only good scenario for them is if they take the wealth they have amassed and disband. They're not an organisation designed for peaceful operations or even know what that means.

 

[RangerBAD]

I'm not going to comment on the definition of terrorism, but I think the story is just simply about an inescapable cycle of violence. Violence literally shaped who they are. They shouldn't escape responsibility when they do something wrong, but we are working with a story that isn't always filled out and requires suspension of disbelief at times. Not that we can't talk about those issues though.

 

[Shun]

In Gundam terms they are villains. Any long time Gundam fan can see that because nearly every real robot Gundam series has the main protagonists being caught within the crossfire of war and finding a way to prevent that war from spreading into eventual end game.

I'm not even trying to say that what Jasley or separate sects of Ghallarjorn has done is remotely okay. I'm giving reasons as to why Tekkadan isn't some sort of protagonist that people continually root for here and they shouldn't be. Because this isn't normal for a Gundam franchise.

I find it particularly weird that Tekkadan is continually being celebrated here and that they should continue to kill and murder, episode on episode. The previous season did this too.

In Gundam 00, we know that Celestial Being is a terrorist organization. They outright say it. The difference between Celestial Being and Tekkadan, despite both being terrorist organizations, is that Celestial Being had an actual goal or purpose on a societal, although flawed, and was tactful about the ways they did things. Tekkadan a polar opposite and are completely self driven without any societal scale agenda like Neo Zeon or Celestial Being had. Tekkadan is much smaller scale and self driven under the illusion that it's for the sake of others.

 

[Crimson_Echidna]

I don't think they're the true villains but I don't think there's a positive end game for them and I also don't think they're a fundamentally good force. Best case scenario they're fascist dictators of mars, another case they continue being mercenaries. The only good scenario for them is if they take the wealth they have and disband. They're not an organisation designed for peaceful operations or even know what that means.

Oh yeah, I don't think they're actually the good guys either. The whole King of Mars thing just feels like a carrot on a stick that Orga has convinced himself is an achieveable endgame because.

Like, I honestly won't be surprised if the series ends with Tekkadan disbanding, but the surviving members actually getting honest, normal work.

I find it particularly weird that Tekkadan is continually being celebrated here and that they should continue to kill and murder, episode on episode. The previous season did this too.

In Gundam 00, we know that Celestial Being is a terrorist organization. They outright say it. The difference between Celestial Being and Tekkadan, despite both being terrorist organizations, is that Celestial Being had an actual goal or purpose on a societal, although flawed, and was tactful about the ways they did things. Tekkadan a polar opposite and are completely self driven without any societal scale agenda like Neo Zeon or Celestial Being had. Tekkadan is much smaller scale and self driven.

Maybe because you keep trying to shoe-horn terrorist to mean what you want it to.

 

[duckroll]

To call Tekkadan the "terrorist" in this scenario is honestly just the same old "the heroes are the true bad guys" spiel that some fans do in every other anime series.

No, there are no "true" bad guys. Tekkadan isn't worse than most of the people they kill, but there are no good guys in this story. That's part of the point. If you detach yourself from the biased viewpoint of being attached to these characters because you think they are good people, you will see that they are basically a bunch of uneducated fanatics who follow Orga because they truly believe he knows what is best for them, and they don't have to think about what they are really doing or the consequences of their actions while they party around between killing a bunch of people. They are not evil people by nature, but that doesn't mean they aren't irresponsible murders who fail the lowest bar for "good guys".

Just to be clear, we ARE talking about the organization who now works for a man who wants to marry a prepubescent girl, schemed to get the woman who loved and trusted him killed, and then murdered his own best friend in cold blood. Right? Good guys! Totally!

Like, I honestly won't be surprised if the series ends with Tekkadan disbanding, but the surviving members actually getting honest, normal work.

Surviving members? Disbanding? Lol. None of them deserve that. This series has to end with every single one of them dead, except maybe a totally crippled Mika, without Barbartos. It should be like the Eclipse in Berserk, where everyone finally sees Orga as who he really is.

 

[Shun]

Damnit where's Shun when you need him.

Duckroll why you gotta do this this is too early in the morning for me.

 

[Rymuth]

It occurred to me that this is the first Gundam show where the Masked guy is straight up the good guy (barring G Gundam, since we're focusing on shows with military themes) instead of being conflicted or fighting on the wrong side etc.

Fareed is motivated by some dark desire to fuck up the world because of a grudge (either real or imaginary) and he's using Tekkadan as his instruments.

That makes Vidar the good guy, since he's not fighting for ideology or to change the world but merely to stop McG - which is usually the trait of every Gundam protag.

 

[Principate]

In Gundam terms they are villains. Any long time Gundam fan can see that because nearly every real robot Gundam series has the main protagonists being caught within the crossfire of war and finding a way to prevent that war from spreading into eventual end game.

I'm not even trying to say that what Jasley or separate sects of Ghallarjorn has done is remotely okay. I'm giving reasons as to why Tekkadan isn't some sort of protagonist that people continually root for here and they shouldn't be. Because this isn't normal for a Gundam franchise.

I find it particularly weird that Tekkadan is continually being celebrated here and that they should continue to kill and murder, episode on episode. The previous season did this too.

In Gundam 00, we know that Celestial Being is a terrorist organization. They outright say it. The difference between Celestial Being and Tekkadan, despite both being terrorist organizations, is that Celestial Being had an actual goal or purpose on a societal, although flawed, and was tactful about the ways they did things. Tekkadan a polar opposite and are completely self driven without any societal scale agenda like Neo Zeon or Celestial Being had. Tekkadan is much smaller scale and self driven.

Celestial being actually directly fought against the world's military entirely on their own. Tekkadan has never done that. They have always worked with a government faction (either that or fought against equally dubious organisations). That's a fundamental difference. Tekkadan is not an aggressive force outright. That's why I don't consider them terrorists. If you throw stick at a bee's nest does that make the bee's coming after you terrorists? They're not indescriminately killing people. Almost every battle has been one of self defense or provocation. They don't randomly attack people. Which is a sizeable difference.

They're not usual gundam protagonists. Your right about that. Gundam protagonost ultimately have a message of pacism and war is bad. Tekkadan search out conflicts to join, war is a way of life for them.

 

[Shun]

It occurred to me that this is the first Gundam show where the Masked guy is straight up the good guy (barring G Gundam, since we're focusing on shows with military themes) instead of being conflicted or fighting on the wrong side etc.

Fareed is motivated by some dark desire to fuck up the world because of a grudge (either real or imaginary) and he's using Tekkadan as his instruments.

That makes Vidar the good guy, since he's not fighting for ideology or to change the world but merely to stop McG - which is usually the trait of every Gundam protag.

I've been saying this since Season 1 and in the OP though. I'm surprised it took 3/4s of the entire series for people to realize it.

I'm glad you do.

 

[Principate]

No, there are no "true" bad guys. Tekkadan isn't worse than most of the people they kill, but there are no good guys in this story. That's part of the point. If you detach yourself from the biased viewpoint of being attached to these characters because you think they are good people, you will see that they are basically a bunch of uneducated fanatics who follow Orga because they truly believe he knows what is best for them, and they don't have to think about what they are really doing or the consequences of their actions while they party around between killing a bunch of people. They are not evil people by nature, but that doesn't mean they aren't irresponsible murders who fail the lowest bar for "good guys".

Just to be clear, we ARE talking about the organization who now works for a man who wants to marry a prepubescent girl, schemed to get the woman who loved and trusted him killed, and then murdered his own best friend in cold blood. Right? Good guys! Totally!



Surviving members? Disbanding? Lol. None of them deserve that. This series has to end with every single one of them dead, except maybe a totally crippled Mika, without Barbartos. It should be like the Eclipse in Berserk, where everyone finally sees Orga as who he really is.

Almost noone is saying Tekkadan are good guys. I just feel people here seem to have a narrow dictionary. You can be not a good guy and also not a terrorist. Law and order isn't always fundamentally good. They've just hitched themselves to one corrupt side of an organisation to fight another.

 

[Andrew J.]

I didn't expect open civil war to come this early, or so suddenly. Makes me worry about the pacing in the rest of the series.

 

[RangerBAD]

It occurred to me that this is the first Gundam show where the Masked guy is straight up the good guy (barring G Gundam, since we're focusing on shows with military themes) instead of being conflicted or fighting on the wrong side etc.

Fareed is motivated by some dark desire to fuck up the world because of a grudge (either real or imaginary) and he's using Tekkadan as his instruments.

That makes Vidar the good guy, since he's not fighting for ideology or to change the world but merely to stop McG - which is usually the trait of every Gundam protag.

Vidar's reasons are vague at best. He does have a grudge against Fareed, but is it because Fareed killed Carta, betrayed him or because he thinks Fareed is evil? He's another shade of grey. He also works for a person that tried to orchestrate a war between two major blocs. Vidar probably has a savior complex, but he isn't without blood on his hands. As Gaileo he definitely had one. A noble born to lead the sheep in his mind. Probably why Fareed attempted to kill him and to also strike at the system of the Seven Stars.

 

[Rymuth]

I've been saying this since Season 1 and in the OP though. I'm surprised it took 3/4s of the entire series for people to realize it.

I'm glad you do.

And you played no small part it, I assure you.

 

[formasymphonic]

In Gundam terms they are villains. Any long time Gundam fan can see that because nearly every real robot Gundam series has the main protagonists being caught within the crossfire of war and finding a way to prevent that war from spreading into eventual end game.

I'm not even trying to say that what Jasley or separate sects of Ghallarjorn has done is remotely okay. I'm giving reasons as to why Tekkadan isn't some sort of protagonist that people continually root for here and they shouldn't be. Because this isn't normal for a Gundam franchise.

I find it particularly weird that Tekkadan is continually being celebrated here and that they should continue to kill and murder, episode on episode. The previous season did this too.

In Gundam 00, we know that Celestial Being is a terrorist organization. They outright say it. The difference between Celestial Being and Tekkadan, despite both being terrorist organizations, is that Celestial Being had an actual goal or purpose on a societal, although flawed, and was tactful about the ways they did things. Tekkadan a polar opposite and are completely self driven without any societal scale agenda like Neo Zeon or Celestial Being had. Tekkadan is much smaller scale and self driven under the illusion that it's for the sake of others.

While a lot of people like to shit on S2 of 00, Celestial being acknoledged what they were, what they have done, knew where they had come from and where they wanted to go and (even during the times they were lost along the way) they had grander ambitions. We are heading into the end game now and I still don't feel any of that from Tekkadan.

Quoting myself & shun from about ep 27-28ish:

Everything I did for Season 1 and now Season 2 has been completely accurate. Including the fact we're getting animal Metal Gears.

I don't give platform or condone a group of "people" who support and revel in terrorism, child labor and child warfare, as well as murder for their own selfish gains.

All that bullshit you see about planting and gardening is just a part of their money laundering and facade to keep face over the fact that they're just a bunch of disgusting gorillas who have no value for ethics or life.

We have so many people who sympathize with this group, just check the first season thread and you can find countless people fetishizing the violence and brutality, and then condemning the only voice of reason as weak and forced.

This is no Gjallarjorn propoganda, it is just facts of what happened. You glorify Carta's death, yet she didn't really do anything wrong. If being weak is wrong, then that's part of the problem and the kind of twisted shit that Tekkadan and other terrorist groups will continue to tell innocent children.

I've had similar thoughts through the first season.

I don't believe that every set of Gundam protagonists need to be anti-war, but I do feel like they need some kind of objective / motivation that makes their actions supportable. Tekkadan want to build themselves up and that's great, but is that alone enough for "gundam"?

While it's unfair to hold too much against the Tekkadan kids due to them being kids, I feel like the only ones who have some kind of objective that makes it worth tuning in is McGillis. I feel like you get the best stories when you have an antagonist who wants something and a protagonist who wants something and the conflict that arises as the two collide.

(Right now the only pair who seem to be set up in that way are Gaelio & McGillis).

I don't want to say that Mika is empty because that isn't entirely true, but he's ultimately just an enactor for Orga, and for a protagonist, I don't know if that's really enough after 28(?) episodes.

We're heading into the end game now and tbh I don't feel like anything has really changed for me from what I felt at the time. "King of Mars" isn't really a goal, it's just a carrot that got dangled in front of them by McGillis to get them to make use of their military force as he pleases.

Eugene, Shino etc even said today that they "don't really understand this stuff" so they'll trust Orga if he tells them that what he wants is what the Gallahorn reformists want. Even then he struggles to actually say it. I don't want to get into the terrorist semantics above, but I do know that in general it's been hard for me to invest in them because they have no actual goal or aspirations. They've just floated along with events from episode one and haven't exhibited any real agency or aspirations beyond violence.

If you are enjoying the week to week stuff and the action then I guess the show is working as intended for you, but I see it now and think:

"Aside from money and resources, are any of Tekkadan's characters (or even just the primary ones) materially different from who they were in the beginning? Have they ,earned anything? Have they grown? Have they gained any kind of objective or motivation?"

And I feel like the answer is no. And while I'm not averse to their underdog-overcoming the odds aspects - they've been roflstomping for long enough that even their conflicts have no real tension and I can't even see them as "underdogs" anymore.

Edit: not gonna lie, that 5min summoning gap between duckroll bat-signalling shun and the instant reply got me - haha

 

[Principate]

Quoting myself & shun from about ep 27-28ish



We're heading into the end game now and tbh I don't feel like anything has really changed for me from what I felt at the time. "King of Mars" isn't really a goal, it's just a carrot that got dangled in front of them by McGillis to get them to make use of their military force as he pleases.

Eugene, Shino etc even said today that they "don't really understand this stuff" so they'll trust Orga if he tells them that what he wants is what the Gallahorn reformists want. Even then he struggles to actually say it. I don't want to get into the terrorist semantics above, but I do know that in general it's been hard for me to invest in them because they have no actual goal or aspirations. They just float along with event from episode one and haven't exhibited any real agency or aspirations beyond violence.

If you are enjoying the week to week stuff and the action then I guess the show is working as intended for you, but I see it now and think:

"Aside from money and resources, are any of Tekkadan's characters (or even just the primary ones) materially different from who they were in the beginning? Have they ,earned anything? Have they grown? Have they gained any kind of objective or motivation?"

And I feel like the answer is no. And while I'm not averse to their underdog-overcoming the odds aspects - they've been roflstomping for long enough that even their conflicts have no real tension and I can't even see them as "underdogs" anymore.

Edit: not gonna lie, that 5min summoning gap between duckroll bat-signalling shun and the instant reply got me - haha

There is character growth. They've become crueler. No longer naive orphans tresspassing morality to survive they're now hardened war machines with the equipment to match.

 

[LotusHD]

Eugene, Shino etc even said today that they "don't really understand this stuff" so they'll trust Orga if he tells them that what he wants is what the Gallahorn reformists want. Even then he struggles to actually say it. I don't want to get into the terrorist semantics above, but I do know that in general it's been hard for me to invest in them because they have no actual goal or aspirations. They just float along with event from episode one and haven't exhibited any real agency or aspirations beyond violence.

I felt like that was sort of the point. We see Orga continue this whole "King of Mars" spiel, and it's so obviously BS and soulless whenever he brings it up. Naze even says as much to him in a previous episode. Where like you said, they're just basically going along the motions, Orga basically doing whatever McGillis tells him to do, and Mika and co. continuing to more or less follow Orga blindly. We're basically just waiting for Tekkadan to realize what they truly want for themselves, because becoming the king of Mars certainly isn't it. And even if it kinda is, the road to achieving is clearly going to put them through a lot of heartbreak, to the point where they'll really question if any of this is worth it.

 

[Shouta]

It should have been Akihiro that fucked up Jasley on the bridge. >=( Great episode otherwise and using Merribit to reflect

It occurred to me that this is the first Gundam show where the Masked guy is straight up the good guy (barring G Gundam, since we're focusing on shows with military themes) instead of being conflicted or fighting on the wrong side etc.

Fareed is motivated by some dark desire to fuck up the world because of a grudge (either real or imaginary) and he's using Tekkadan as his instruments.

That makes Vidar the good guy, since he's not fighting for ideology or to change the world but merely to stop McG - which is usually the trait of every Gundam protag.

I actually think the situation is pretty standard Gundam. Gjallarhorn is corrupt as fuck and McGillis, regardless of his tendencies for evilface, is trying to get rid of that. You gotta remember that the Seven Stars have been doing some fucked up things the entire series and it's basically gone unchecked outside of Chocoman working some shit behind the scenes on occasion. I mean, Rustal orchestrated a conflict that almost turned into total war between two economic blocs that were peaceful with each other. Vidar is willing to uphold that status quo so he's the bad guy in this situation.

I mean, it kind is a flip because of who's fighting for what but looking at what's actually happening in the show, it isn't that different from the others.

 

[StayDead]

JASLEY YOU SON OF A BITCH! (Just watched episode 41).

I can't wait to see someone rip that son of a bitch in half. LAFTA NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

 

[Principate]

I felt like that was sort of the point. We see Orga continue this whole "King of Mars" spiel, and it's so obviously BS and soulless whenever he brings it up. Naze even says as much to him in a previous episode. Where like you said, they're just basically going along the motions, Orga basically doing whatever McGillis tells him to do, and Mika and co. continuing to more or less follow Orga blindly. We're basically just waiting for Tekkadan to realize what they truly want for themselves, because becoming the king of Mars certainly isn't it. And even if it kinda is, the road to achieving is clearly going to put them through a lot of heartbreak, to the point where they'll really question if any of this is worth it.

I don't think Tekkadan actually want anything, anything they do want has long since been secured (secruitty, wealth, family). They just going through th motions because they don't know any better and violence is all they've ever known. It's how they make their living

 

[SliceSabre]

The problem with McGillis is that sure he is trying to reform Ghallarjorn because it is corrupt as fuck which is a good thing.

However his methods of doing it are the most fucked up methods of doing it, not to mention he set up his -life long friends to be killed. Though those friends are treated as antagonists they were in fact simply doing their jobs and neither one of them were shone to be a part of said corruption in the first place. This means you have to call into question McGillis' methods and if his change would actually be good change which is still up in the air. Tekkadan is teaming up with a person like that which I can only see as a bad thing.

Not to mention Orga's shit about family is continuing to be bullshit by the way they cut ties with Kudelia. Orga is just doing this for the thrill of battle and violence and giving Mika the psychopath more bodies.

 

[Shouta]

Not to mention Orga's shit about family is continuing to be bullshit by the way they cut ties with Kudelia. Orga is just doing this for the thrill of battle and violence and giving Mika the psychopath more bodies.

I'm almost certain he cut ties to protect Kudelia and the work she's doing. He did the same with McMurdo and Teiwaz because he knew he'd have to fight Teiwaz but also because it's likely they'd be branded vigilantes or the like.

It's pretty important to remember that while Teiwaz is a yakuza organization, they operated legitimately under the law. That's why Iok had to frame the Turbines to be able to go after them. They also fought Gjallarhorn in defense of the escaping Turbines as well which means they were aiding and abetting criminals, even if the charges were made up.

 

[Rymuth]

It should have been Akihiro that fucked up Jasley on the bridge. >=( Great episode otherwise and using Merribit to reflect



I actually think the situation is pretty standard Gundam. Gjallarhorn is corrupt as fuck and McGillis, regardless of his tendencies for evilface, is trying to get rid of that. You gotta remember that the Seven Stars have been doing some fucked up things the entire series and it's basically gone unchecked outside of Chocoman working some shit behind the scenes on occasion. I mean, Rustal orchestrated a conflict that almost turned into total war between two economic blocs that were peaceful with each other. Vidar is willing to uphold that status quo so he's the bad guy in this situation.

I mean, it kind is a flip because of who's fighting for what but looking at what's actually happening in the show, it isn't that different from the others.

I guess it's struck me because I'm having difficulty rooting for anyone (I'm rooting FOR certain people's deaths instead of FOR people winning) on this show.

There is also the issue of most Gundam protags being reactive to their situation (Amuro, Kira, Garrod, Banagher etc) all take up the mantra of 'I gotta get into the giant robot to protect my friends from the situation that's out of my hand'

By contrast, Tekkadan are the proactive party in most of their conflicts. Even when compared with other proactive pilots like, say, the Gundam 5 from Wing, they're the only ones who are willingly at the blonde rival's beck and call.

McG is a pedo and a backstabber. I don't think there's any grey area when it comes to him. He has a weird fascination with Gundams that is bordering on religious fantasticism. I could easily see him awakening all mobile armors to 'reset the world' because that'll be his answer to deal with a system that's rotten to the core.

By contrast, Vidar fills Char's role. He'll fuck off as soon as he kills the object of his revenge. Of the two, I'm far more scared of Fareed.

 

[RangerBAD]

Generally, there are no winners in violence. That's what usually weighs on the shoulders of most Gundam protagonists. It seems like the show is telling us that rather than a particular character because they were all broken to begin with.

 

[Riskbreaker23]

By contrast, Tekkadan are the proactive party in most of their conflicts. Even when compared with other proactive pilots like, say, the Gundam 5 from Wing, they're the only ones who are willingly at the blonde rival's beck and call.

Every major conflict tekkadan has been in has been instigated by another faction. They got involved with Kudelia because their base was attacked. Every battle on their way to earth was caused by gjallarhorn or outside forces trying to manipulate/kill them. This season as well every battle has been them reacting to someone antagonized them.

Unlike most gundam protags, these kids are trained soldiers so of course they are going to take a more aggressive stance when dealing with enemies. They have had to fight for every thing they have so they are going to continue to do just that.

The reasons why Orga is so willing to follow Fareed are that, for one, he has never given them a reason to not trust him since they formed their alliance back in S1. He has helped them achieve their goals and has kept his promises to them so far. Another reason is that Orga knows that he is in over his head with leading the group. That is why he was always asking advice of first Naze and now Fareed.

 

[Hellwarden]

Gundam IBO 42

Guys, Barbatos Lupus Rex is so beefy and huge.

It's great.

It's great guys.

Also, holy shit, Vidar is gonna do something next episode.

...

...What if he loses immediately?

 

[Whompa02]

The character designs just get worse and worse.

 

[jgminto]

Bud why did Tekkan feel like giving Lafter's giant robot to Hush, of all people?

Probably because it doesn't use the AV system.

 

[DY_nasty]

talk to em shun

dirty terrorist sympathizers

 

[formasymphonic]

Also count me in as another one who thinks that they should have had Akihiro should have been the one who ended it.

Edit: ..."Hero"? I just think it was a waste to set him & Lafter up the way they did and then let Mika (as usual) be the one to end it.

 

[duckroll]

Also count me in as another one who thinks that they should have had Akihiro should have been the one who ended it.

I'm sorry but your glorious hero was too busy crushing young children to death with his giant robot clipper instead.

 

[Allonym]

Damn, I think Mika might just be the best Gundam pilot in terms of skill and ability. With a little more finesse and employing better tactics, I think he'd soundly beat Amuro at the height of his piloting.

 

[Allonym]

I'm sorry but your glorious hero was too busy crushing young children to death with his giant robot clipper instead.

It's kill or be killed on the battlefield. The Human Debris were indiscriminate in their slaughter as well. It's a dog-eat-dog world when you're nestled in a cockpit or nestled in a chair in a warship.

 

[duckroll]

It's kill or be killed on the battlefield. The Human Debris were indiscriminate in their slaughter as well. It's a dog-eat-dog world when you're nestled in a cockpit or nestled in a chair in a warship.

Yes, clearly, it is not as if our "heroes" have overwhelmingly power weaponry based around melee combat which allows them to easily disable all mobile suits without killing people if they choose to. Nope. Alas. It's KILL OR BE KILLED! Glorious Hero Tekkadan! HOORAY! CHILD... CRUSH!!!!

 

[truestatic]

Yes, clearly, it is not as if our "heroes" have overwhelmingly power weaponry based around melee combat which allows them to easily disable all mobile suits without killing people if they choose to. Nope. Alas. It's KILL OR BE KILLED! Glorious Hero Tekkadan! HOORAY! CHILD... CRUSH!!!!

For real. They go for the kill shot every time. Tekkadan doesn't know how to pull a punch. I know this show isn't as bright eyed idealism as Wing but I feel like the blood thirst is just a bit strong here.

 

[Allonym]

There's a lot of people in this thread that are super naive. The lives that the children lead in Tekkadan are better than the lives they were given on the streets of Mars where they'd starve and die with no one batting an eye. In Tekkadan, they have a home and a means of providing for themselves and their families and friends. It explains why they are members of Tekkadan in the first place. They are simply marketing their skills and willing to do a dangerous job most aren't willing to. Here, at least they get hot meals, shelter, treated with respect and actually form a true family unit. The closest analog for them is the Turbines. Sure, the women's whose contracts were bought out by Naze likely enjoyed more relative safety in the brothels than on his ship but for them, that life was worse than the death they faced working aboard the Hammerhead. Tekkadan never exudes bloodthirstiness until they lose one of their own and don't forget Gjallahorn and Jasley wronged them first all to provoke a war within Teiwaz.

This distorted sense of morality would get you all killed on the battlefield. These people got what they rightfully deserved. The only persons in this show who got the shitty end of the stick were Carta, Galeio and Biscuit.

Yes, clearly, it is not as if our "heroes" have overwhelmingly power weaponry based around melee combat which allows them to easily disable all mobile suits without killing people if they choose to. Nope. Alas. It's KILL OR BE KILLED! Glorious Hero Tekkadan! HOORAY! CHILD... CRUSH!!!!

Why would they give them quarter when they had no mercy for Naze and a crew comprised entirely of women and children even after they attempted to surrender and were blatantly dismissed...?

For real. They go for the kill shot every time. Tekkadan doesn't know how to pull a punch. I know this show isn't as bright eyed idealism as Wing but I feel like the blood thirst is just a bit strong here.

That comes back to bite people in the ass, there's nothing to say that in the future or even during that same skirmish that, the disabled enemy wont redeploy and kill a comrade.

 

[Rymuth]

It explains why they are members of Tekkadan in the first place. They are simply marketing their skills and willing to do a dangerous job most aren't willing to. Here, at least they get hot meals, shelter, treated with respect and actually form a true family unit.

You've just repeated the same tag line used by every cult/terrorist organization. No evil group ever advertises itself as 'Grrr, we're evil! Grrr, come join us to crush puppies, grr' but rather use charismatic tactics and the promise of finding a place to belong (an actual phrase used by Tekkadan) and be with people who'll be your true family.

Doesn't matter if a child gets 3 hot meals a day or sleeps on the cold floor - in either organization, a child dies by being sent to the frontlines. That is unacceptable.

Now who's being naive?

 

[vareon]

I don't think Tekkadan will go away scot-free after all they've done. There needs to be some kind of closure.

 

[MHWilliams]

For real. They go for the kill shot every time. Tekkadan doesn't know how to pull a punch. I know this show isn't as bright eyed idealism as Wing but I feel like the blood thirst is just a bit strong here.

They're child soldiers.

Of course they don't.

There is no good here. Merely different shades of fucked up. Tekkadan is a private military force. Gjallarhorn is a corrupt aristocracy. McGillis is willing to do anything to tear down Gjallarhorn. Vidar works for Gjallarhorn, purely to get at the target of his revenge.

We're going Zeta on this one. I'm reasonably sure everyone is going to die. Atra and Kudelia will survive. Maybe Ride.

EDIT: Chad had the best explanation: "Everyone with a weapon is equal. If you hesitate, you die." The series in a nutshell.

 

[duckroll]

Why would they give them quarter when they had no mercy for Naze and a crew comprised entirely of women and children even after they attempted to surrender and were blatantly dismissed...?

I see you are drinking the Tekkadan kool aid so hard that you don't even realize what you've said here. You basically equated Jasley's fleet, which is largely a business cover, protected by security forces who are paid to do their jobs, and human debris which he enslaved, with Iok's fleet which were a bunch of soldiers who at best were blindly following bad orders, and at worse were happy to commit human rights violations in the name of their lord. Two totally different fleets with totally different people. Human beings who made different life decisions to end up where they did. But hey, because Jasley made a deal with Iok, they're ALL THE SAME right? Anyone who stands in Tekkadan's way is the ENEMY. No difference!

That's some real terrorist talk there. It's how you go from "Fucking American drones killed my cousins" to "Anyone who allies with America or works with American forces or lives in America is the ENEMY! Allahu Akbar!!!!"

FOR BISCUIT!!!
FOR NAZE!!!!!!!!!!
FOR LAFTER!!!!!!!!!!!

KILL EM ALL! IN THE NAME OF ORGA, KING OF MARS, AND MIKA, THE DEVIL OF THE BATTLEFIELD! BOOM BOOM BOOM!

 

[Principate]

I see you are drinking the Tekkadan kool aid so hard that you don't even realize what you've said here. You basically equated Jasley's fleet, which is largely a business cover, protected by security forces who are paid to do their jobs, and human debris which he enslaved, with Iok's fleet which were a bunch of soldiers who at best were blindly following bad orders, and at worse were happy to commit human rights violations in the name of their lord. Two totally different fleets with totally different people. Human beings who made different life decisions to end up where they did. But hey, because Jasley made a deal with Iok, they're ALL THE SAME right? Anyone who stands in Tekkadan's way is the ENEMY. No difference!

That's some real terrorist talk there. It's how you go from "Fucking American drones killed my cousins" to "Anyone who allies with America or works with American forces or lives in America is the ENEMY! Allahu Akbar!!!!"

FOR BISCUIT!!!
FOR NAZE!!!!!!!!!!
FOR LAFTER!!!!!!!!!!!

KILL EM ALL! IN THE NAME OF ORGA, KING OF MARS, AND MIKA, THE DEVIL OF THE BATTLEFIELD! BOOM BOOM BOOM!

Haha what, Jasely's fleet were mobsters that killed a fellow member out og cold blood and organised the destruction of an ally and OWNED CHILD SLAVES. What sort of people do you think Hadley surrounded himself with.

You may as well do proganda for the yakuza. Just because they've never been caught by the law and but up a front doesn't make them decent law abiding citizens. Hell being law abiding doesn't even make you decent since that depends on what sort of government your ruked by.

 

[duckroll]

Haha what, Jasely's fleet were mobsters that killed a fellow member out og cold blood and organised the destruction of an ally and OWNED CHILD SLAVES. What sort of people do you think Hadley surrounded himself with.

You may as well do proganda for the yakuza. Just because they've never been caught by the law and but up a front doesn't make them decent law abiding citizens. Hell being law abiding doesn't even make you decent since that depends on what sort of government your ruked by.

That's a lot of deflection. I see a lot of "but they are not good people... probably" while ignoring that that we're talking about mass murder here. Not attacking an enemy to arrest them, not self defense, not even preemptively preventing an attack of any sort. They were provoked and they decided the right course of action was to just kill everyone. That's not how normal people behave.

I'm not stanning for bad guys here, I'm pointing out that Tekkadan are dangerous unhinged murderers who have no regard for law or order. No regard for rules of engagement. No regards for human life. I asked why it was justified that Tekkadan just straight up murdered everyone. The response was because the bad guys straight up murdered Turbines when they were defenseless. That's flawed logic because they aren't even the same people or the same faction. Jasley is an ass but he isn't Iok. Simplifying it as them all being the same is how bad guys think. Not heroes.

 

[Rymuth]

What Duckroll said and by extension, MHWilliams.

What is happening here isn't elevating Jasley and co to the status of heroes but rather bringing down Tekkadan from their ivory tower. They should be judged by the same standards that we, and they, use to judge other organizations in this series.

The moment Orga got backing from Teiwaz and Kudelia's company, he should've shut down that child soldier nonsense immediately. His creed should've been, "if you're under 18, you're not getting into a mobile suit. End of discussion." - they had two branches and a mining operation, more income to make the lives of every kid in their roster a lot easier. Give 'em desk jobs, for cripes sake and use your money to procure adult soldiers for hire.

Lest we forget that Jasley never made a move on Naze in all his years. It's only after Orga brazenly declared himself King of Mars that Jasley reacted to this by going to Iok.

Tekkadan are very much the architects of their own misery.

 

[Principate]

That's a lot of deflection. I see a lot of "but they are not good people... probably" while ignoring that that we're talking about mass murder here. Not attacking an enemy to arrest them, not self defense, not even preemptively preventing an attack of any sort. They were provoked and they decided the right course of action was to just kill everyone. That's not how normal people behave.

I'm not stanning for bad guys here, I'm pointing out that Tekkadan are dangerous unhinged murderers who have no regard for law or order. No regard for rules of engagement. No regards for human life. I asked why it was justified that Tekkadan just straight up murdered everyone. The response was because the bad guys straight up murdered Turbines when they were defenseless. That's flawed logic because they aren't even the same people or the same faction. Jasley is an ass but he isn't Iok. Simplifying it as them all being the same is how bad guys think. Not heroes.

Yeah and who says Tekkadan are the good guys I certainly didn't. I'm just saying how flimsy this argument is since that entire scenario was a trap to massacre Tekkadan which they failed in. You can't white wash that and pretend Jasley were the good guys. The show went to great lengths to show they were just as morally rephensible as Tekkadan were.

As much as you may like to, you can't ignore that.

 

[duckroll]

Yeah and who says Tekkadan are the good guys I certainly didn't. I'm just saying how flimsy this argument is since that entire scenario was a trap to massacre Tekkadan which they failed in. You can't white wash that and pretend Jasley were the good guys. The show went to great lengths to show they were just as morally rephensible as Tekkadan were.

As much as you may like to, you can't ignore that.

Who is... whitewashing Jasley? The "trap" is that they expected Tekkadan to act like dogs, rush at them to try and kill them all, and then they would be crushed by reinforcements from Iok. Right from the start the attraction was a soft target that would allow them to get their revenge because they are insane murderers who don't give a fuck. The fact that Jasley's plan failed doesn't matter. The fact that Tekkadan carried out the operation does. Is Jasley responsible for poor planning and a stupid plan that got a bunch of people killed? Sure. But no one gives a shit because he was a cartoon villain from the get go. The issue is that some people think Tekkadan are heroic, or justified, or "had no choice" in this conflict. That's patently false.

This isn't a fight Orga needed to get involved in. I don't think there's any question that Jasley had to go. But there are a bunch of ways to achieve that. He had already overstepped his bounds. Tekkadan had the support of the Teiwaz leader. They could have responded in kind and made it an actual gang war. Provide evidence, out Jasley, and working with McDonalds they could have done an "inspection" where he and his top men "attempted to resist" and were unfortunately killed. Or they could have just straight assassinated him. That's the revenge they wanted. They wanted Jasley dead. Instead they picked the most brutal, wasteful, pointless way to do it. They broke off all ties, rushed into a "trap" which they knew they disarmed, just so they could go wild to get the personal satisfaction of "getting revenge" with their own hands. Gross.

This is why IBO is going to end with everyone dead. Because Orga is an asshole who doesn't know what he is doing, and all the blood thirsty animals following him have to be put down.

 

[Andrew J.]

Who is... whitewashing Jasley? The "trap" is that they expected Tekkadan to act like dogs, rush at them to try and kill them all, and then they would be crushed by reinforcements from Iok. Right from the start the attraction was a soft target that would allow them to get their revenge because they are insane murderers who don't give a fuck. The fact that Jasley's plan failed doesn't matter. The fact that Tekkadan carried out the operation does. Is Jasley responsible for poor planning and a stupid plan that got a bunch of people killed? Sure. But no one gives a shit because he was a cartoon villain from the get go. The issue is that some people think Tekkadan are heroic, or justified, or "had no choice" in this conflict. That's patently false.

This isn't a fight Orga needed to get involved in. I don't think there's any question that Jasley had to go. But there are a bunch of ways to achieve that. He had already overstepped his bounds. Tekkadan had the support of the Teiwaz leader. They could have responded in kind and made it an actual gang war. Provide evidence, out Jasley, and working with McDonalds they could have done an "inspection" where he and his top men "attempted to resist" and were unfortunately killed. Or they could have just straight assassinated him. That's the revenge they wanted. They wanted Jasley dead. Instead they picked the most brutal, wasteful, pointless way to do it. They broke off all ties, rushed into a "trap" which they knew they disarmed, just so they could go wild to get the personal satisfaction of "getting revenge" with their own hands. Gross.

This is why IBO is going to end with everyone dead. Because Orga is an asshole who doesn't know what he is doing, and all the blood thirsty animals following him have to be put down.

A few things:

1. I wouldn't exactly call Jasley's ship a "soft target." Sure, they're punks compared with Tekkadan, but this is still a large, well-equipped mercenary force we're talking about here.

2. I get the feeling that Orga believes being affiliated with both Teiwaz and McGillis's revolutionary faction is causing too many complications, so this may be his way of justifiably breaking ties with one in favor of the other. Wish the show had been more explicit about that, though.

3. There is a timing element to this, too. Going through semi-official channels like you suggest certainly could work, but how many attacks on Tekkadan's allies might occur in the meantime?

4. I really don't think assassinating Jasley was a feasible option. I'd expect that, especially after Lafter, he'd heavily minimize his exposure in that regard until his plans had been fully executed.

 

[Principate]

Who is... whitewashing Jasley? The "trap" is that they expected Tekkadan to act like dogs, rush at them to try and kill them all, and then they would be crushed by reinforcements from Iok. Right from the start the attraction was a soft target that would allow them to get their revenge because they are insane murderers who don't give a fuck. The fact that Jasley's plan failed doesn't matter. The fact that Tekkadan carried out the operation does. Is Jasley responsible for poor planning and a stupid plan that got a bunch of people killed? Sure. But no one gives a shit because he was a cartoon villain from the get go. The issue is that some people think Tekkadan are heroic, or justified, or "had no choice" in this conflict. That's patently false.

This isn't a fight Orga needed to get involved in. I don't think there's any question that Jasley had to go. But there are a bunch of ways to achieve that. He had already overstepped his bounds. Tekkadan had the support of the Teiwaz leader. They could have responded in kind and made it an actual gang war. Provide evidence, out Jasley, and working with McDonalds they could have done an "inspection" where he and his top men "attempted to resist" and were unfortunately killed. Or they could have just straight assassinated him. That's the revenge they wanted. They wanted Jasley dead. Instead they picked the most brutal, wasteful, pointless way to do it. They broke off all ties, rushed into a "trap" which they knew they disarmed, just so they could go wild to get the personal satisfaction of "getting revenge" with their own hands. Gross.

This is why IBO is going to end with everyone dead. Because Orga is an asshole who doesn't know what he is doing, and all the blood thirsty animals following him have to be put down.

You were quite blatantly, notice how your were intially were calling Jasley's Corp this innocent civilian organisation that Tekkadan massacred, ignoring to mention everything else about that situation. Tekkadan are obviously bloodthirsty murderers this show has no subtlety in regards to that, they hit you over the head with it. Orga has never had any idea what he was doing you didn't need to see this episode to realise this. It was heavily lapshaded near the beginning of season one.

Frankly Tekkadan should have had heavily losses in the first season because of his reckless actions. They didn't die due to a Disney ending. Who knows if the show actually has the balls to pull that this time around.

 

[duckroll]

Don't put words in my mouth. I said "legitimate business front", "innocent children", and "innocent bodyguards". No one thinks Jasley is innocent. But maybe you think that the human debris and the other hired help who were guarding the fleet were actually involved in this gangster fight to begin with. They were just doing their jobs, or in the case of the human debris they literally had no choice. But I'm sure Tekkadan loyalists get a kick out of seeing Buff Man crush kids to death in the cockpits just for kicks right? KILL OR BE KILLED! THIS IS WAR! DON'T BE NAIVE! War means the most cruel and violent methods of killing must be employed? Who did Tekkadan learn warfare from? The Imperial Japanese Army?!

 

[Shun]

talk to em shun

dirty terrorist sympathizers

See what I've done. People have heard my augur. I've changed (some of) these people from Season 1.

Now they're fighting amongst themselves and questioning their moral values. My augur from Season 1 until now have not gone to waste.

I am proud. I have made a difference in society.

See this is what happens when you hand Okada a Gundam series. She can't even make this series Tomino good.

I will be sure to report to my superiors at Sunrise and Bandai Namco Entertainment and let them know what the people truly want.

NO MORE SENSELESS AND VIOLENCE MURDER.

 

[Principate]

Don't put words in my mouth. I said "legitimate business front", "innocent children", and "innocent bodyguards". No one thinks Jasley is innocent. But maybe you think that the human debris and the other hired help who were guarding the fleet were actually involved in this gangster fight to begin with. They were just doing their jobs, or in the case of the human debris they literally had no choice. But I'm sure Tekkadan loyalists get a kick out of seeing Buff Man crush kids to death in the cockpits just for kicks right? KILL OR BE KILLED! THIS IS WAR! DON'T BE NAIVE! War means the most cruel and violent methods of killing must be employed? Who did Tekkadan learn warfare from? The Imperial Japanese Army?!

Dude had one of his men put out a hit a fellow member of the gang. Innocent bodyguards my ass. That's some grade A projection. They're a Yakuza gang at the very least some of them aren't so innocent.