Yes, there are plenty of USB-C --> type A/B/micro/etc cables already on the market. So you can just replace the accessory cable rather than rely on an extra dongle/adapter in the chain.
New MacBook Pro leaked by Apple itself in latest macOS update
- Thread starter Vashetti
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Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
The more I think about it the more this annoys me more than anything else. I use USB sticks all the fucking time. :/
Honestly, if this were a Jobs product, the entire trackpad would be a touchscreen. Not just the F-keys. That would be actual innovation. Not just removing an essential row of the keyboard and some ports as well as essential features (MagSafe). We can PM about this if you want to discuss further. Not trying to turn this is into a Jobs would have... thread.
Hell, that might even be the case we haven't seen the trackpad yet
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
I thought that and then I replaced my 2012 MBA with a 2016 MB and it is substantially lighter and easier to carry. I can only speak for myself but it was honestly a huge surprise how different it is.
Angelus Errare
Banned
Uh a shitload of DSLR cameras?
My 2016 Nikon D500 does for one. In fact it doesn't even support CF only SD (UHS-II) and XQD. I guess it's not a "Pro" camera.
eyeball_kid
Member
So no Thunderbolt ports? Most of the current audio interfaces are Tbolt, so this is going to cause problems for audio work, or at the least an annoying adapter.
1) action keys with custom icons that could switch contextually as you switch the active app, and also change as you hold down modifier keys (Command, Option, Control)
2) scrubber bar for videos, iTunes, video editing, etc
3) move document metadata to toolbar to save display space – i.e. Photoshop moves Info pane information there, maybe even color palette selection
Not a gimmick at all. It allows more space on your display for content, it makes finding menu shortcuts easier due to more vibrant and contextual icons, and it allows for a touchscreen editing area. And that's just off the top of my head. I'm sure inventive developers can think of other uses.
1) action keys with custom icons that could switch contextually as you switch the active app, and also change as you hold down modifier keys (Command, Option, Control)
2) scrubber bar for videos, iTunes, video editing, etc
3) move document metadata to toolbar to save display space – i.e. Photoshop moves Info pane information there, maybe even color palette selection
Not a gimmick at all. It allows more space on your display for content, it makes finding menu shortcuts easier due to more vibrant and contextual icons, and it allows for a touchscreen editing area. And that's just off the top of my head. I'm sure inventive developers can think of other uses.
TB3 uses the USB-C connector, just like TB1/2 used miniDP, so the USB-C ports probably double as TB3. You'll need an adapter, but that's on Intel in this case, since they changed the plug.
Angelus Errare
Banned
I can think of so many great uses for that touch bar in regards to application integration. Hell using it for the scrubber on audio applications alone is great.
Zeyphersan
Banned
I know what thread you're thinking of and this is totally the wrong one
It could be used for entering characters that aren't on the keyboard. So maybe in some French context you'd have accented e's and such showing up as the displayed characters.
Or perhaps you'd have a colour selector, maybe with a pinch to zoom thing going on, where you can choose colours while your main screen is dedicated to showing how the different colours look in context (images, apps, documents etc).
Most of the other ideas I'm thinking up are using it mostly as extra screen space. I'm never that hard up for screen space, but maybe it'd be nice from a design perspective to have a place to put secondary stuff and let the main screen be more clean and focused. Maybe the tab bar could be on the touch strip.
Angelus Errare
Banned
It could be the universal macOS tabs when in full screen as well.
neurosyphilis
Definitely not an STD, as I'm a pure.
The touch ID is cool and all, but it looks exactly the same as the current MBP. They've been using that design since I was in like 8th grade. I'll stick to my 2015 MBP.
I guess that's you, but I am literally baffled at the fetishization of weight loss in a fucking professional laptop like this. I'd add a goddamned pound to my laptop for more functionality. I really don't care about the weight and thinness. For the most part when I'm carrying it around it's in a bag with all my other work shit so a bit more weight isn't doing much for me.
The Albatross
Member
I've been desperate for a new MacBook Pro for over a year now... patiently waiting for rumors, announcements, refreshes, anything.
But...
Almost all of the rumors have me sitting here asking "why, as a professional who uses Mac products, is this good for me?" The ultra-low travel keyboard from the MacBook is probably my biggest complaint. I'm willing to buy dongles for USB-C... It's annoying but isn't something that would make me really not buy a computer... But.. goddam, that terrible keyboard in the MacBook... ugh. In an ultra mobile, iPad competitor like the MacBook, it's fine and it doesn't bother me, I wouldn't buy the device, but I get how somebody who wants an ultra-light, iPad competitor but with a full OS and physical keyboard might prefer super-slim over a better typing experience. But, on a full size computer, I'm not sold on the benefits.
I'm hoping Apple sells me on the benefits of these changes, versus their salesmanship on the iPhone. Like, "We removed the universally agreed upon greatest laptop keyboard on earth and replaced it with one with mixed reviews because this, this, this and this." If they say, "Because courage" or "Because striking, beautiful design..." I'll be dissatisfied. If they say, "BEcause we can cram 4 more hours of battery life, and drop a 0.8lbs, and it has these unique new features..." then I'll be open to them.
With the bar at the top, I don't really get the benefit yet but I'm willing to keep an open mind. I like the immediacy of hitting my audio buttons, and using escape in virtually every application I use regularly... So I'm keeping an open mind to it. I don't see how it's much of an improvement from function keys now, especially when you can easily map function keys to different functions in all of the applications that I use regularly, but I'm willing to keep an open mind.
But I really want Apple to sell me on these design decisions. Don't tell me about courage or how forward thinking you are. Show me why it benefits me as a power user of your devices. OTherwise, I'm like you, I might buy a 2015 MacBook Pro instead, something I held off on doing for a year.
*edit*
If it's not the new low-travel keyboard, then I'll probably buy it.
It's at the bolded point in your post that I look back at the OP and notice that there are no F or function keys on the keyboard...
Yeah, I'm going to need to see how they pitch this.
eyeball_kid
Member
The existing Fn keys are discrete hardware keys that only serve 1 to 2 functions. They don't need to be hardware keys. What's the point? You're not using them like you use letter/number keys so there's no issue with ergonomics. It's a waste to dedicate 1 to 2 functions to physical buttons that get used every once in a while. Some don't get used at all, if you're the average person.
But a touchscreen slab taking up the same area has any number of uses. Not only can it display changing icons, but it can act as something other than buttons. The Magic Touchbar is function that dictates form, and I for one welcome our new toolbar overlord.
Form over function implies either fewer functions or reduced functionality in favor of style. How does introducing TouchID and a reconfigurable bar result in either?
NoblesseOblige
Banned
I've always wanted an easier way to give Apple more money.
Marty Chinn
Member
Lack of tactile feedback when trying to hit those keys now. Possibly needing to activate or switch their functionality before using them because they might not be in the state you want them in. Those are two examples how the functional ease of use has been made worse. Also, nobody knows how this will work with Windows for those who dual boot.
The Real Abed
Perma-Junior
I'm sure the touch strip will be totally customizable.
Let's look at the Function keys. They're literally only on current Mac keyboards because in the '90s Apple was pressured to include them for compatibility with office software since a lot of those programs used function keys on Windows versions. So to make the transition to the Mac version easier, Mac keyboards gained function keys. It's basically a cross-platform compatibility thing.
Eventually Apple decided they needed to take a back seat and set the default function of them to perform other system things like changing brightness, volume, controlling music, LaunchPad, Dashboard, Exposé/Mission Control. You can of course switch it around so they're F-keys first and controls second if you want.
And yes, they can be really useful. With some utilities like BTT you can set them up to do other things in apps that don't use them at all anyway. In my case I have them set up to launch applications when I hold Shift.
But now what Apple is giving us is something that will be so much more useful. They'll give you F-key functionality when needed. They'll give you system controls when needed. But they'll also give you so many other contextually sensitive functions. For instance, firstly, the default controls. Maybe they might display the system controls by default, but press and hold down Fn and boom, they change to F-keys in apps where F-keys are needed. But in apps like, say, Apple designed apps like Safari for instance, they might show a bunch of buttons for most used functions like New Tab, Close Tab, Show History, Bookmarks, Tab Overview, etc. All with nice looking icons maybe. Other apps will show other things. It'll be on a per-app basis. And by default it'll just show normal Function keys.
The part that gets me excited is that this could be a preview of technology that might come to the iPhone. A Touch ID sensor in the screen instead of its own button. Maybe a hint at removing the Home button from the iPhone? Maybe? I dunno. Maybe.
As long as it's customizable as shit. I hope BTT does some stuff with it. If not some other dev.
I bet it'll also use haptic feedback when the "buttons" are "pressed".
I just hope, and assume, that the section that the Power button is on will still have some physical aspect to it. We need a button that can interrupt the system no matter what even if it's frozen completely. As well as power it on without needing to draw power just to check the status of the button. So I assume it'll have a normal button hidden under the strip that will detect the press and hold of the Power button. Well, unless they've moved the Power button elsewhere. Ever since the Retina and Air, the Eject key was replaced with a Power key and the normal Power button was removed. It used to be above the keyboard. I assume they wouldn't put one back there again. (Especially since we'd see it in those leaked shots.)
Imagine if they figured out a way to make it so low power that they actually integrate it into the wireless stand alone keyboards as well.
I cannot wait for Thursday to finally see what this is all about. If anything the keynote is going to be fun to watch.
Let's look at the Function keys. They're literally only on current Mac keyboards because in the '90s Apple was pressured to include them for compatibility with office software since a lot of those programs used function keys on Windows versions. So to make the transition to the Mac version easier, Mac keyboards gained function keys. It's basically a cross-platform compatibility thing.
Eventually Apple decided they needed to take a back seat and set the default function of them to perform other system things like changing brightness, volume, controlling music, LaunchPad, Dashboard, Exposé/Mission Control. You can of course switch it around so they're F-keys first and controls second if you want.
And yes, they can be really useful. With some utilities like BTT you can set them up to do other things in apps that don't use them at all anyway. In my case I have them set up to launch applications when I hold Shift.
But now what Apple is giving us is something that will be so much more useful. They'll give you F-key functionality when needed. They'll give you system controls when needed. But they'll also give you so many other contextually sensitive functions. For instance, firstly, the default controls. Maybe they might display the system controls by default, but press and hold down Fn and boom, they change to F-keys in apps where F-keys are needed. But in apps like, say, Apple designed apps like Safari for instance, they might show a bunch of buttons for most used functions like New Tab, Close Tab, Show History, Bookmarks, Tab Overview, etc. All with nice looking icons maybe. Other apps will show other things. It'll be on a per-app basis. And by default it'll just show normal Function keys.
The part that gets me excited is that this could be a preview of technology that might come to the iPhone. A Touch ID sensor in the screen instead of its own button. Maybe a hint at removing the Home button from the iPhone? Maybe? I dunno. Maybe.
As long as it's customizable as shit. I hope BTT does some stuff with it. If not some other dev.
I bet it'll also use haptic feedback when the "buttons" are "pressed".
I just hope, and assume, that the section that the Power button is on will still have some physical aspect to it. We need a button that can interrupt the system no matter what even if it's frozen completely. As well as power it on without needing to draw power just to check the status of the button. So I assume it'll have a normal button hidden under the strip that will detect the press and hold of the Power button. Well, unless they've moved the Power button elsewhere. Ever since the Retina and Air, the Eject key was replaced with a Power key and the normal Power button was removed. It used to be above the keyboard. I assume they wouldn't put one back there again. (Especially since we'd see it in those leaked shots.)
Imagine if they figured out a way to make it so low power that they actually integrate it into the wireless stand alone keyboards as well.
I cannot wait for Thursday to finally see what this is all about. If anything the keynote is going to be fun to watch.
That is one example and one possibility, but it does not indicate that it has fewer functions or reduced functionality overall. I don't see how it is sacrificing functionality for form. It is sacrificing some functionality for additional functionality.
I'm talking about touch screen over keys. They should have made the keys just have OLED screens on it. Pressing on a capacitive bar is going to suck. Absolutely no button feedback. I can press function keys blind. I can't with this.
Marty Chinn
Member
Form over functionality also means making things more difficult to use as well. So even if you technically can do ask the same things, if it is more complicated to do that also fails under the complaint of form over functionality.
No, it doesn't mean making things difficult. It means making difficult for no purpose besides style. Two factor authentication makes things more difficult, it is not sacrificing function over form. If you can do the same things and much more, it does not fall under the complaint of form over functionality.
If they replace a tactile button with a Touch ID sensor with haptic feedback, it makes it more difficult for some people to touch the button but it allows a lot more functions. Nobody would argue that it is form over functionality.
Two Words is arguing about putting OLED tactile buttons--I disagree that it would offer the same additional functionality. For instance, you won't be able to use the bar as a slider for media editing. You couldn't have messages on there (that don't look fugly because the screens aren't connected).
lmao at comparing your Macbook to your 17" Dell then reaching for conclusions. A more modern laptop like the HP EliteBook shows up Apple's compromises:
ArsTechnica said:
so shaving 0.08 pounds of weight kind of 'improvement'. I don't think that's worth it.
This is denial at its best now.
sd card is a widespread format in any news/production/marketing agency.
They're just going one step further from the professional world (which they abandoned already on a software level).
As I said, form over functionality.
Please explain how the ability to act as a slider and act as buttons and provide information is not an increase in functionality. Your proposal reduces functionality, and it definitely is more complicated to have 17 individual mechanical OLED screens, which only reduces overall functionality.
uncelestial
Member
Uh, what are you babbling about again? The 13" MacBook Pro is 3.57 pounds. The 2016 Macbook is 2.03 pounds, a huge reduction. It's also .14 inches thick vs 0.95 for the Macbook Pro. Anyone who honestly says these differences aren't noticeable has not felt the difference for themselves, I'm sorry. It's amazing to curl up with this thing, it's amazing on the train, it's amazing on planes, it's fantastic for work too. I also don't hate being able to charge with the same USB-C cable between my phone and my laptop. That has been super-convenient -- every damn thing should be USB-C.
The 2016 Macbook is even lighter than the Air by nearly a pound (the Air is 2.96 pounds), and yet it was able to pack in an upgrade to a retina screen, all because of externalizing the ports. It's a great accomplishment in economical hardware design and honestly it even performs really well. I love this fuckin' thing to death.
There honestly aren't even substantial performance differences between the Macbook Pro 13 and the Macbook 2016 that I can actually detect in daily use and I use both a Macbook 2016 (personal) and 13" MB Pro (work) every day. Given that I bust out the port dongle maybe once every two weeks or so, and the fact that the performance isn't even noticeably different for my use cases (writing, programming, streaming, and internet) I don't have any idea what I'd gain paying more money for native ports on a huge device. That feels like a lose/lose proposition.
So, yeah, stand by my post 100%, and I'm really happy to see heavy, thick-ass "powerful laptops" (which always end up being disappointing, power-wise, anyway) going out of style.
Sliders are just a slicker way of representing an option. The lack of tactile feedback hurts functionality. Let's not act like we've been needing a new way to display data on a computer. Hell, the esc key is suddenly a second class key now.
No they aren't, they're an analog and much quicker + more precise way to do it compared to key presses, especially for things like volume, brightness, or scrubbing through media files.
nah that'll be rev. 2
What are you talking about? This slider is not going to be more accurate. It is a digital input as well. A button press is going to be more precise than trying to slightly move a slider.
Your post is nonsense. You are mistaking the options that Apple presents as the only alternatives conceivable. The choice is not between creating a 2.03 lb Macbook and a 3.57 lb MBP. The choice was between a 2.06 lb Macbook with one port and a 2.14 Macbook with two ports**. Apple chose to save 0.08 lb at the expense of one more port.
**
assuming all else stays the same, which in the real engineering world they won't, but we're discussing hypotheticals so who knows
Additional functionality can always be welcome. Touch ID is just a slicker way of representing an option. I personally don't use the keys except for volume and brightness, and sliders can handle those functions better. I always forget the keyboard shortcut to activate Grab, and having an icon that I can press would increase functionality for me. I do think the ability to have notifications simultaneously present and not hidden but not take up screen real estate can increase functionality. If you are watching a movie, playing a game, or in a full-screen app and you get a notification/e-mail, for instance.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
He's referring to how it's faster to use positional controls than relative ones - e.g. if you use a mouse you can zip to a specific point on a screen very quickly, while if you use a keyboard to control a mouse cursor you have to hold it or tap it continuously until it reaches where you want it to go. In terms of volume controls, it's similarly easier to quickly change up and down or go to a specific point (e.g. halfway) with a physical (or digital) slider than it is to press the "volume up" / "volume down" buttons. That sort of thing.
I was contending his point that the slider is more precise. That simply isn't true.
uncelestial
Member
So let me get this straight. Comparing rumored estimates of what hypothetical non-existent machine specs might have been, in theory, to actual machines that exist is NOT nonsense, even though you admit that in practice these estimates would likely turn out to be invalid.
But comparing the specs of actual machines that exist right now in the market and concretely demonstrate the benefits of these design decisions, THAT is nonsense?
Welp. I'll cherish our time together.
But you at least agree that it provides a better option, when used in combination with key presses (which are still available) compared to simply button presses on their own. If you want to move to a middle, end or beginning of a song or document, the option of a slider provides more functionality.
Nexus Zero
Member
I am constantly resorting to the volume slider on both mac and iPhone as the volume buttons tend to dance around my ideal level.
SciencePilot
Member
So they remove the function keys but they still won't remove or simplify fn + control + option/alt + command + shift. Those are always what annoyed me most about the mac keyboards -- so many of these modifier keys with no clear meanings. I can never remember when I need to use which ones for which shortcuts.
Hopefully they'll get to removing or simplifying them eventually.
Hopefully they'll get to removing or simplifying them eventually.
That would because they mapped too large of a volume change to a button press. That's not the button's fault.
No you got that wrong again. We're comparing Apple's Macbook with one port to an actual machine existing in the market right now that Ars Technica describes as the "Macbook with two ports".
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