Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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A few more questions about SSD since I am a noob.

Here is what I understand about both PS5 and XsX SSD's:
-Reduces loading times to something seconds to nothing range.
-Pick up where you left off BETWEEN multiple different games
-Virtual RAM for streaming game assets
-Allow larger open world games, allows developers to create level designs without any constraints.

Here is where I get confused:
-How does the SSD contribute to the *PROCESSING AND PERFORMANCE* of High Fidelity Graphics. In other words does the SSD help with:

Realism in texture detail, fluidity of animations. Examples such as realistic hair, animal fur plus the movement of hair and animal fur. Realistic water texture and the fluid movement of water.

I guess you could say that the SSD widens the pipes and increases the amount of fuel going in to the engine, so the engine can really show what it can do versus before the pipes were narrow and not much fuel going in?
The things you listed won't get any benefits from a faster ssd. That's all gpu. Graphics rendering needs tflops.

That said anything that relies on vram like textures, draw distance, LODs, might get an upgrade on the faster ssd since they can load in those highly detailed objects in and out of ram at 5.5 to 9 gbps with zero bottlenecks. Whether devs utilize it is another story. As it stands, Xbox will have the best graphics for multiplats this gen.

Watch the cerny ssd talk. He said the biggest reason they went with ssd wasn't loading. It was to give game designers freedom to create levels without bottlenecks. That's where ps5 games will benefit the most.
 
You are right. there are a lot of things coming together to load the games, which is precisely why you are seeing 11 seconds load times for a last gen game with maybe 5gb of ram max. Cerny himself said that simply increasing the ssd speed wont result in faster load times. which is why he made sure to add all that stuff in the i/o to remove every bottleneck there is and ensure that this 100x faster speed in ssd translates into 100x faster loading and streaming.

zhyTE1I.png


The screen before this one is the most important because he talked about how a 10x faster ssd only improved the load times by 2x. Which is why they decided to put most of their efforts into the I/O to eliminate those bottlenecks to get 1:1 perf/speed. judging by the demo MS released, i dont think they were able to get that ratio or come anywhere close to that. they had a year to come up with a loading demo to go up against the spiderman loading demo and thats the demo they put out there on youtube. they have been super media savvy this entire marketing run and this doesnt seem like a mistake they would make.


you can watch Cerny talk about the above screenshot here. i've timestamped this clip.



"The screen before this one is the most important because he talked about how a 10x faster ssd only improved the load times by 2x. Which is why they decided to put most of their efforts into the I/O to eliminate those bottlenecks to get 1:1 perf/speed. judging by the demo MS released, i dont think they were able to get that ratio or come anywhere close to that."

This is where you get it wrong. The PS5 uses several hardware accelerators to eliminate bottlenecks. For example they have two file IO chips(one for mapping) in the IO complex to eliminate CPU overhead. But what you misunderstood is MSFT did something similar. The XSX uses the DirectStorage API alongside hardware in the decompression block to reduce the CPU overhead for file IO(including mapping) to one tenth of a zen core. That is virtually no difference between the two approaches in terms of eliminating File IO bottlenecks. Just that they took different approaches. Sony's is marginally better(based off what we know now) but practically, they both produce the same result. We need more info on the XVA and how it eliminates bottlenecks though. I liked Cerny's SSD presentation.

The XSX demo you talk about was just using the SSD and not the DirectStorage API nor the hardware accelerators that remove these bottlenecks. So we have no idea the real world performance of these systems.
 
A few more questions about SSD since I am a noob.

Here is what I understand about both PS5 and XsX SSD's:
-Reduces loading times to something seconds to nothing range.
-Pick up where you left off BETWEEN multiple different games
-Virtual RAM for streaming game assets
-Allow larger open world games, allows developers to create level designs without any constraints.

Here is where I get confused:
-How does the SSD contribute to the *PROCESSING AND PERFORMANCE* of High Fidelity Graphics. In other words does the SSD help with:

Realism in texture detail, fluidity of animations. Examples such as realistic hair, animal fur plus the movement of hair and animal fur. Realistic water texture and the fluid movement of water.

I guess you could say that the SSD widens the pipes and increases the amount of fuel going in to the engine, so the engine can really show what it can do versus before the pipes were narrow and not much fuel going in?
Well a Cerny taked more than 20 minutes to explain but whatever In my opinion before someone try to kill me:

1)Doesn't help to processing in a literal way
2)The studios of almost any game you can named try to optimize any thing they do in order to be able to have a equilibrium between
the data necessary for the next 30 seconds and the detail they want to have in its game.
3)So many to the things you see like a normal in a game is because the slow HDDs are used like narrow hallways many cutscenes also
many decision in the design of the games are for this limits.
4)A big part of the memory in game in just waiting to be use for many time for put a number 5 seconds is a life of waiting for an asset.
5) So if even you have a good quantity of memory like the 5GB for the base console your artist need to create his assets even below that number
because only a fraction of that memory can be use and this ends with all team tired to try improve in any way that issue which cost money and time.
6)If you can load the asset for only a fraction of the next frames compare than before then for example your textures or model now can be much better.
7)Both console have SSD fastest enough as use a some extension of memory so maybe they even can run some code directly from SSD (the last time this happens
in a console was in N64).
4)With SSD they dev doesn't need to duplicate files so this means more memory for assets (plus the improved compression of both consoles).
5)All this changes could mean less time where your CPU and GPU are idle.

If I put an analogy to this to for example to my mom I will say the GPU/CPU are like Chef, the memory the ingredients available inside the kitchen and SSD is the truck with
the ingredients that is parked outside (instead the old bicycle which was the HDD) and quantity of clients of the restaurant which eat determined time are the frame of a game.

So yeah your chef was very good but before doesn't has all the ingredients which he wants so some of dishes were just part of his potential and he even was able to take free time
if the owner doesn't request in the correct order and time all the ingredients necessary for the next 30s (yes your chef is fast) but now your chef will have always the specific ingredient he need for that
specific minute and also each ingredient is unique for each dishe and with better quality and now the owner can focus in another things.

So this means the SSD doesn't make your chef better but if is used as in theory can be use then the chef seems to be better than he would be with the old ingredient delivery system but
most important you free the other employees of the hell of before.
 
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Next-Gen Battlefield For PS5 And Xbox Series X Shaping Up Well, EA Says


Anything Dice comes up with at this point has the potential of being slightly better than the SJW fest that was BFV, am I right?





If the next Battlefield actually looked like this gameplay wise, that would be awesome. Wishful thinking I guess.
 
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If the next Battlefield actually looked like this gameplay wise, that would be awesome. Wishful thinking I guess.

Truly shameless that they tried to pass that off as real gameplay.

DICE should be buried and forgotten. They are done. COD has eaten their lunch.

The nextgen COD will probably add destruction to Warzone and Ground war and there will be no reason for anyone to pay attention to DICEs bullshit ever again. Good riddance.
 
"The screen before this one is the most important because he talked about how a 10x faster ssd only improved the load times by 2x. Which is why they decided to put most of their efforts into the I/O to eliminate those bottlenecks to get 1:1 perf/speed. judging by the demo MS released, i dont think they were able to get that ratio or come anywhere close to that."

This is where you get it wrong. The PS5 uses several hardware accelerators to eliminate bottlenecks. For example they have two file IO chips(one for mapping) in the IO complex to eliminate CPU overhead. But what you misunderstood is MSFT did something similar. The XSX uses the DirectStorage API alongside hardware in the decompression block to reduce the CPU overhead for file IO(including mapping) to one tenth of a zen core. That is virtually no difference between the two approaches in terms of eliminating File IO bottlenecks. Just that they took different approaches. Sony's is marginally better(based off what we know now) but practically, they both produce the same result. We need more info on the XVA and how it eliminates bottlenecks though. I liked Cerny's SSD presentation.

The XSX demo you talk about was just using the SSD and not the DirectStorage API nor the hardware accelerators that remove these bottlenecks. So we have no idea the real world performance of these systems.

Are you sure about that ? According to this video PS5 has significant advantage and this is coming for a PC enthusiast, master race lol who usually boast about the powerful GPU, CPU and the RAM.


 
Truly shameless that they tried to pass that off as real gameplay.

DICE should be buried and forgotten. They are done. COD has eaten their lunch.

The nextgen COD will probably add destruction to Warzone and Ground war and there will be no reason for anyone to pay attention to DICEs bullshit ever again. Good riddance.
😄 Wth did Dice burn your house down or something? They are done after one misstep (BFV)? Dice is a great developer with a huge legacy and fanbase and will most probably come back stronger than ever on next gen.
 
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This game looks awesome:


Well better this than attack the other console


Shadows have no effect on the player when passing by
Textures are meh, low poly rocks, stones
barren landscape, EMPTY and soulless like NMS was years ago
nothing to do but WALK and kill 10 rats over and over again
visuall&technically unimpressive




M.A.G on the PS3 was more impressive (technically speaking, 256peeps, 256mb ram, chaos pure) :)

I don´t get the appeal of SC at all. A better looking NMS, the end ... with a story.
 
😄 Wth did Dice burn your house down or something? They are done after one misstep (BFV)? Dice is a great developer with a huge legacy and fanbase and will most probably come back stronger than ever on next gen.
Exactly this. There are people like me who invested thousands of hours in BF and until some other publisher at least comes close to the complexity and scale of BF games, we'll be buying their next installments, complain but still play because they have no direct competition. I have no interest in COD. I bought the current one and it was a huge mistake (well, the campaign was okay).
 
Context is important. And obviously people want to blur everything so that it fits their agenda. What they showed was fine.
C'mon. This was shown on YouTube. They're obviously demonstrating to the public the XSX's speed. You think they expect average Joe and little Timmy to think "Context is important"? You'd think they'd leave a fineprint on there indicating games ran on XSX unoptimized, so speeds may be faster on final hardware or something along those lines.
 
Shadows have no effect on the player when passing by
Textures are meh, low poly rocks, stones
barren landscape, EMPTY and soulless like NMS was years ago
nothing to do but WALK and kill 10 rats over and over again
visuall&technically unimpressive




M.A.G on the PS3 was more impressive (technically speaking, 256peeps, 256mb ram, chaos pure) :)

I don´t get the appeal of SC at all. A better looking NMS, the end ... with a story.

Yes the demos of Quixel looks gorgeous as always and yes SC still has many problems in things like animations but still has a very
impressive achievements basically because is the first AAA design to work with SSD in mind if you have time check this good videos of
our favorite member of DF always impartial and far of any controversy.

 
I have a feeling that Sony will fully show the PS5 only after the release of Ghost of Tsushima.
XSX will be fully revealed in July...so maybe Sony is Waiting for them...
 
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I understand that but your last affirmation about Sweeney well I didn't see that coming but as I don't know you I will suppose you know
enough of the subject instead I don't have level enough to make such affirmation and yes is not the first time I heard lets say
disagreements about some feature regarding that engine.

That's just me. I don't believe in authority.
The only programmer I value is Linus Torvalds. And only because he's hilarious with his rhetoric in the mailing list. 😂
 
Dude can be a bit nasty though. Does he still hate C++?

I don't mind nasty. I even prefer nasty over people who will say things like:
"Interesting" meaning "wtf you just wrote?"
"Good idea, but" meaning "are you crazy writing that shit?"
And so on.
Everybody hates C++, if you don't hate C++ you don't write enough code in C++.
But a lot of times you don't have any other option.
 
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I have a feeling that Sony will fully show the PS5 only after the release of Ghost of Tsushima.
XSX will be fully revealed in July...so maybe Sony is Waiting for them...

Nah... I think we will have next-gen gameplay to look at and a reveal by Sony at least by the end of June. I'd say May...but I don't want to set myself up for disappointment. Still possible but this virus has really messed things up and we're just starting to see more ripple effects (the start of them) economically and with the food production chain broken, etc. So I'd stick with June.

Now pricing? Wouldn't surprise me to see Sony try to hold off till AFTER MS commits there. But...they both pretty much need pre-orders to start by July and if the boxes are in production and they HAVEN'T done a reveal it will just leak from factory workers.
 
I don't mind nasty. I even prefer nasty over people who will say things like:
"Interesting" meaning "wtf you just wrote?"
"Good idea, but" meaning "are you crazy writing that shit?"
And so on.
Everybody hates C++, if you don't hate C++ you don't write enough code in C++.
But a lot of times you don't have any other option.

RaD is betting heavily, like porting their entire engine to it, on Rust and MS just added WinRT bindings for it too (many other companies are picking it up) and they have been bullish aboutsupporting the language internally for a while too.

Alternatives will pop up, they will take their sweet time to gain adoption though...
 
The truth is the opposite. If you hate C++, it's because you didn't work with it and get familiar with it enough.
There's way more wrong with tools than the language itself.

You cannot know C++ well enough.
It's an uphill battle littered with shotguns aimed at your feet.
Yes C++17 is pretty usable. But still has unimaginable amounts of undefined behavior.
 
RaD is betting heavily, like porting their entire engine to it, on Rust and MS just added WinRT bindings for it too (many other companies are picking it up) and they have been bullish aboutsupporting the language internally for a while too.

Alternatives will pop up, they will take their sweet time to gain adoption though...

I'm not so sure about Rust. Nobody ever proved that its memory model is indeed leak-proof. But so far so good.
 
That load demo wasn't from an optimized version, it was just taking the current game and dumping it on the new system. The Spiderman demo shows a scenario that never occurs in the game, thus that is not the base game in its default playable state, plus the Spiderman comparison was based on an in-game transition, not the initial load.

Fast travel is not a thing in Spiderman? I could have sworn it is.
 
I don't mind nasty. I even prefer nasty over people who will say things like:
"Interesting" meaning "wtf you just wrote?"
"Good idea, but" meaning "are you crazy writing that shit?"
And so on.
Everybody hates C++, if you don't hate C++ you don't write enough code in C++.
But a lot of times you don't have any other option.
The truth is the opposite. If you hate C++, it's because you didn't work with it and get familiar with it enough.
There's way more wrong with tools than the language itself.

Now, I'm a horrible programmer so don't take my word, but in my Opinion programming with different languages suites different people.
Many might have a hard time programming in a certain language and some might be real genuises in comparison. Guess this isn't really based on something that can be learned in the common sense. It's coded (pun intended) into peoples dna/neurons. Like some people simply know how to play a tune on a new musical instrument.
 
Wednesday. What a boring day. It's not Sony Tuesday neither Next Gen Xbox Thursday.
That's a very good video, more people should watch it.
I remember watching when it came out. I was almost asleep in the couch and my gf was complaining about the guy's voice XDD Great video, tho.
 
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Wednesday. What a boring day. It's not Sony Tuesday neither Next Gen Xbox Thursday.

I remember watching when it came out. I was almost asleep in the couch and my gf was complaining about the guy's voice XDD Great video, tho.
It is Last of Us 2 trailer day though at 7am PT it's possible we may get more news afterwards one can hope
 
It's a pretty big risk for them to do that and hopefully it pays off.

Why do you believe that is a pretty big risk?

Edit: Doncabesa Doncabesa Doncabesa Doncabesa you can share your opinion instead to laugh every time someone doesn't praise your favorite box you know this, right ?

Doncabesa Doncabesa .......now where have I seen that name before 🤔....

Truly shameless that they tried to pass that off as real gameplay.

DICE should be buried and forgotten. They are done. COD has eaten their lunch.

The nextgen COD will probably add destruction to Warzone and Ground war and there will be no reason for anyone to pay attention to DICEs bullshit ever again. Good riddance.

You're out of your damned mind lol. CoD will never be BF and vice versa....with your description, CoD will be just....Battlefield yet not lol, so nope.
 
Are you sure about that ? According to this video PS5 has significant advantage and this is coming for a PC enthusiast, master race lol who usually boast about the powerful GPU, CPU and the RAM.




First of all Coreteks 100% knows his stuff and this was the first video i found wanting in some regards.

If we focus on my argument about eliminating bottlenecks, then Coreteks doesn't make a compelling argument(he doesn't for RT as well) based off what we now know. He mentions the custom controller in the PS5 and 12 channels as an advantage over the XSX, but this explains how the PS5 is able to have an impressive raw SSD speed of 5.5GB/s(>double the XSX) and not how it eliminates the IO bottlenecks between what's stored in secondary memory and the actual game code.

...But before continuing, I need to point out something we need to acknowledge that is misleading in Coretek's video. SSDs by default have low latency relative to HDDs, so both systems are going to change how RAM is utilized, the PS5's advantage here is the higher throughput...

In order to eliminate those bottlenecks, one can either rely solely on hardware accelerators or software or a combination of both. The data still has to go through the APU before going to RAM, so software on the CPU can be used to eliminate bottlenecks. Sony used a lot of custom hardware accelerators in the APU i.e they rely much on hardware, in order to spare the CPU. On the other hand, MSFT used a combination of Software and Hardware accelerators. The issue is, we do not know enough about MSFT's IO system, but what we do know so far is impressive and on par with the PS5's in terms of eliminating bottlenecks. MSFT is claiming that they only have File IO overhead equivalent to one tenth of a zen 2 core.

And my issue with Coreteks' video is that although he claims to be privy to some extra information, he's unable to clearly articulate(without revealing) what bottleneck the XSX may have. Instead he only mentions the public information from Cerny and infers that the XSX won't be able to eliminate these bottlenecks(which we now know is not true). The only thing he mentions about the XSX that was not publicly available at the time is that it has WDP compression but he doesn't mention BCPACK(which is the most important one) which at the time of his video was not publicly known to be present on the XSX.

Of the five bottlenecks presented by Cerny, the most important ones are File IO(including mapping) and Decompression. From what we know as of today, both systems eliminate these. For the others we'll find out but for example DirectStorage should be able to address DMA since it will be doing it for virtual RAM. So we still have a lot to learn.
 
The truth is the opposite. If you hate C++, it's because you didn't work with it and get familiar with it enough.
There's way more wrong with tools than the language itself.

About tools and MSFT.

What will the following output in MSVC++2019?

C++:
#include <unordered_map>
#include <iostream>

int foo() {
    std::unordered_map<int, int> m;
    m[665] = 123;
    m[666] = m.size(); // <---
    return m[666];
}

int main() {
  std::cout << foo();
}
 
I don't mind nasty. I even prefer nasty over people who will say things like:
"Interesting" meaning "wtf you just wrote?"
"Good idea, but" meaning "are you crazy writing that shit?"
And so on.
Everybody hates C++, if you don't hate C++ you don't write enough code in C++.
But a lot of times you don't have any other option.
C++ is for me the most beautiful language.
 
Now, I'm a horrible programmer so don't take my word, but in my Opinion programming with different languages suites different people.
Many might have a hard time programming in a certain language and some might be real genuises in comparison. Guess this isn't really based on something that can be learned in the common sense. It's coded (pun intended) into peoples dna/neurons. Like some people simply know how to play a tune on a new musical instrument.

It's a heavy off-topic but I have a different opinion.
There are 10 types of people: those who can write code and those who cannot.
That's about it.
 
It is Last of Us 2 trailer day though at 7am PT it's possible we may get more news afterwards one can hope
I have that game in media blackout for obvious reasons. I wasn't gonna buy it until the PS5 came out to play it fully maxed out, but now I'm affraid and I'm going to play it at launch.

About tools and MSFT.

What will the following output in MSVC++2019?

C++:
#include <unordered_map>
#include <iostream>

int foo() {
    std::unordered_map<int, int> m;
    m[665] = 123;
    m[666] = m.size(); // <---
    return m[666];
}

int main() {
  std::cout << foo();
}

If it's one I'm never going to code in C++ ever again.
 
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About tools and MSFT.

What will the following output in MSVC++2019?

C++:
#include <unordered_map>
#include <iostream>

int foo() {
    std::unordered_map<int, int> m;
    m[665] = 123;
    m[666] = m.size(); // <---
    return m[666];
}

int main() {
  std::cout << foo();
}
Depends on wether you're on release or debug build. ;) MSVC is atrocious with this kind of operations on std hash maps, especially due to how optimization messes with expression evaluation order.

I've been burned by the std :: map :: operator[] enough times already.
 
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I'm not so sure about Rust. Nobody ever proved that its memory model is indeed leak-proof. But so far so good.

For a language Mozilla started for internal projects, I would have not expected this much traction (well, JS technically has its roots there... kind of... but that was never expected to grow into the ubiquitous monster it is today):

If it can reasonably provide fast performance and a memory and threading model that helps remove huge classes of errors at compile time (or limit them), it is a massive victory.
 
well, JS technically has its roots there... kind of... but that was never expected to grow into the ubiquitous monster it is today

Don't start JS with me, I'm now in a process of writing an embedded JS platform and it's a nightmare.
JS ecosystem is so bad, that I cannot even...
 
There's no such thing as "next-gen" in the PC world.
I just wish people would stop acting as if everyone who plays on PC has the newest most powerful rig, most people do not but whenever console is compared to PC it's always against the top of the line not what the average PC gamer has.
While that's true it's not at all what I meant, which is that there is no such thing as next-gen in the PC world due to its constantly evolving nature. Consoles evolve every 6-7 years or so, PC evolves continuously. That's why it feels so silly to me when a PC video is titled as "next-gen".
 
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