PC is not under NDA. No reason he couldn’t talk about requirements there. I have a really hard time believing he doesn’t know at least approximately the pc specs required. It really does feel like some kind of initial exclusive deal with Sony. Didn’t they call it a collaboration?
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PC is not under NDA. No reason he couldn’t talk about requirements there. I have a really hard time believing he doesn’t know at least approximately the pc specs required. It really does feel like some kind of initial exclusive deal with Sony. Didn’t they call it a collaboration?
Metroiddarks
Member
To say what, yeah in Xbox you can run the demo but with a minor quantity of geometry streamed.
You know this work great for the business relationship. Is a tech demo for a specific features of streaming, you are hurt because didn't say 'XSX run better the same demo'.
If they want to show I don't know raytracing they will show first in a PC.
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BadBreathOfTheWild
Member
He didn't say the NDA stopped him talking about PC requirements, though. When asked what kind of PC would be required to run the demo at the same quality as on PS5 his answer is different, and he says it's too early to know. Which makes sense if it's heavily relying on PS5's storage IO, and consistent with him saying PC needs to catch up. It may feel like something different to you, but taken at face value, it just seems like it really is too early to tell. PC needs more than just 8-9GB/s from an SSD. It's the rest of the pipeline which he also explained on Twitter (although Carmack (peace be upon him) said he agreed with all of it except that you can use unbuffered IO on PC to help mitigate some of the overhead),
Metroiddarks
Member
Guys he is correct you can use the same demo as best showed because to EPIC doesn't care if you can run it or not so you can move many parameter inside the engine.You don't know what you are talking about.
All UE4 demos are released and you didn't and don't need to do any special instructions, nor is there anything to fix or even build.
Also all demos are self maintained and updated with each engine version release by Epic (look at supported engine versions).
You can easily tell people who haven't touched UE4 as its the same group of people promoting the ridiculous notion that only PS5 can run it.
Because they think there will never be a way for them to be proved wrong and held accountable. WRONG!
Also you see those two check-marks? That means I HAVE those projects on my PC.
Only people which Unreal Engine does, this for example is a great to learn how they build/dev some things.
Shmunter
Member
Sweeney said there is nothing on the pc to match PS5 speed and efficiency in streaming assets and it will need to catch up. What does that tell you? Do people want him to come out and literally say PC is shit? What are they looking for? A bit of critical thinking please, the info has been presented.
That includes being able to rationalise that a pc with 128-256gig of ram should be able to run it, anything is possible on an open ended bespoke hardware configuration. There’s no question.
But again pc specs like those are unrealistic for consumers Vs a consumer oriented console. Apples vs Oranges. And then loading the demo for 10 minutes into ram vs instant start is still a no brainer which is the better offering.
Pc needs and eventually will get i/o improvements brought forward by Sony in particular. From there pc’s can again dominate in all areas, till then they will be behind in asset streaming and be less capable in the broader sense.
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BadBreathOfTheWild
Member
Except I didn't say the demos aren't release, nor that Epic care if you run them or modify them. I merely said they've historically been made public years after publicly demo'd, and much later than the engine SDK is released. He attacked a straw-man, not what I actually said.
BadBreathOfTheWild
Member
I wouldn't be surprised if PC does go down the monster loads of RAM route. Far simpler and the architecture is already there for it. That plus optimisations for loading RAM contents into VRAM which someone linked a road map showing improvement to recently.
Metroiddarks
Member
Do you know if this guy has some grade reliability?
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Metroiddarks
Member
Well the time when is release is probably until the beta of Unreal Engine 5 is out so what end of this year or maybe a little earlier ?
icerock
Member
Yes, his information also lines up with another insider on Era by name of Katharsis.
Silent Hill and Bluepoint remake are legit and I expect to see both at reveal event. Little unsure on GT7, but I expect to see some footage from one of the next Horizon/Spider-Man/God of War to close the show. Either way, exciting few weeks ahead. Let's hope there aren't any full blown leaks.
Shmunter
Member
The question arises the feasibility for massive ram requirements being adoptable enough to create a user base big enough for devs to bother with.
And that’s for certain titles. There will be no shortage of cross gen titles that take little to no advantage of streaming, As displayed during the XsX gameplay reveal.
BadBreathOfTheWild
Member
Who knows. Elemental was shown in 2012 and released in 2014. Infiltrator was shown in 2013 and released in 2015. Hopefully Lumen in the Land of Nanite comes out much closer to when UE5 is made available. I think it will be a highly sought after benchmark in the PC space!
Also, when Unreal Engine was first demo'd on PS4, this was said during an interview which made me laugh:
Echos from the past.
HAL-01
Member
People really out here suggesting sony's twisting Sweeney's arm to keep quiet,
because he won't give out specific hardware requirements to an engine thats more than a year from release
about which he specified the IO requirements do not exist yet on the consumer space.
People are losing their minds anyway. And again if you are trying to sell your product it seems strange to limit it to a portion of them.
Also why would it be less newsworthy to see it run at 60 FPS on high end pc hardware.
Metroiddarks
Member
Wait until tech talk of Unreal Engine. oh my these console warriors why they love to put word dog in its nickname.
He don't talk about requirement because still many time until they release the engine, because you don't have a commercial SSD with IO solution in the market now.
And yes the NDA of the PS5 could affect that talk they just cannot go a say the SSD is equivalent to this raid solution plus this non-existent IO solution than you can buy
and the GPU of that specific configuration is equals to that gpu NVIDIA because you know also AMD love to see its performance revealed before they have its presentation
of its products.
There is no tech stopping this from running on pc. People are deluding themselves believing epic would make a demo to sell a multi platform engine that would only be possible on one platform.
You don’t need a fast ssd to run the entire demo out of system ram. Your argument makes no sense.
And here you are calling me a console warrior when I’m saying the demo most likely can run on either console and definitely on pc. I think you need to look in the mirror.
I would not be surprised if 32 gigs plus a decent ssd is plenty to run the demo. You have to remember that even a 5.5 GB per second drive is extremely slow compared to ram.
It is only a matter of time until we know the real answers once this demo gets released.
HAL-01
Member
Good looking pc demos are a dime a dozen, nvidia releases a new RT demo every now and then, which no one outside of enthusiast forums cares about, because its running in multi thousand dollar machines.
What??? No one here's denying it'll run on both consoles, sweeney said so himself. what??
They know they'll need something to bring pcs up to speed, maybe theyll ask extra video ram, or maybe a fast ssd will do, they dont know yet.
Engine and hardware optimization usually comes at the end of development, sweeney's not hiding the spec requirements from you.
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BadBreathOfTheWild
Member
No amount of debate here will change the reality of anything, and despite where my hunches point, I don't know exactly what's required to run the Lumen demo as shown, and nobody else here does either. Speculation is fun and this is the place for it, but passing off opinion and speculation as some kind of obvious or established fact because of personal feelings or wishes is misleading and makes it harder to see or try and analyse what's really being said and going on.
At the moment it seems generally accepted by both sides that XSX can have an advantage over PS5 with GPU compute in how that relates to game rendering. There's argument on just how much of an advantage, but no argument that XSX can have an advantage in the first instance.
Yet in a demo of technology that relies on high-bandwidth low-latency streaming from storage, all kinds of speculations and conspiracy theories are presented as clear and obvious fact as to why PS5 couldn't possibly have an advantage in this one area, despite having pretty much twice the IO performance., not just 18% more.
If Epic had demonstrated technology that ultimately depended on raw GPU compute and said it was only possible (on console) because of what Microsoft had delivered with a GPU, would we be accusing Epic of just marketing for Microsoft? Would we dismiss it as marketing if PS5 had half the GPU compute available? I personally doubt it.
At the moment it seems generally accepted by both sides that XSX can have an advantage over PS5 with GPU compute in how that relates to game rendering. There's argument on just how much of an advantage, but no argument that XSX can have an advantage in the first instance.
Yet in a demo of technology that relies on high-bandwidth low-latency streaming from storage, all kinds of speculations and conspiracy theories are presented as clear and obvious fact as to why PS5 couldn't possibly have an advantage in this one area, despite having pretty much twice the IO performance., not just 18% more.
If Epic had demonstrated technology that ultimately depended on raw GPU compute and said it was only possible (on console) because of what Microsoft had delivered with a GPU, would we be accusing Epic of just marketing for Microsoft? Would we dismiss it as marketing if PS5 had half the GPU compute available? I personally doubt it.
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Exodia
Banned
What you said was clear and still 100% wrong.
- The last time Epic created a demonstration for UE4 it was released many years after it was first shown at GDC. WRONG (The last demo was the kite demo which was released 3 months after GDC)
- and instructions on how to fix it WRONG (Nothing were ever wrong with any of the demos. Nothing to fix. They worked out of the box and still do.)
- and instructions to build it for the latest version of UE4 WRONG (Not only do you not have to build the demos. All updates to the latest version are done by Epic the very same day a new version of UE4 releases. )
WRONG. The only demo that came out a year later was the infiltrator demo and that was a year after UE4 first launched publicly.
WRONG. UE4 was publicly released March 2014. Elemental Demo was available on release. Day one.
Again exactly 1 year after engine public release.
Nope you dont and i just proved it. Like I won't be here trying to tell you things about Unity and their engine.
I have only used unity once to run the book of the dead demo. I don't develop on it. I definitely won't pretend on an internet forum that i have any clue about unity, its status and history.
Lumen Already exists in UE4. Going all the way back to 4.8 (2015).
Lumen is a combination of currently existing tech (with improvements ofcourse) in UE4 called Distance Field GI, HeightField GI and SSGI. The only difference is now they brought back SVOGI from the dead and mixed it in.
The nextgen systems are just now powerfully enough for them to refocus on it and mixed them into one system (lumen). But the features already exist in the engine other than SVOGI. Development just wasn't focused on them till 2 years ago. Fortnight money changed everything. Epic games went on a hiring spree for the rendering team.
Heightfield GI
This demo uses heightfield GI only (already in engine since 2015)
Distance Field GI (already in engine since 2015)
SSGI (already in engine since 2019)
The killed SVOGI because PS4/XO wasn't powerful enough. Now its being resurrected (removed from engine in 2012 before release)
The engine wasn't public till March 2014 and the Elemental demo was released on launch day. What Epic games did was unprecedented, releasing assets and source code of practically everything. including their own developed games later (paragon). No one wanted Elemental demo because the entire concept of getting assets and source code is unprecedented.
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ArcaneNLSC
Member
I'm going to ask a hypothetical here
IF Sony have managed to gain license to Konami's IP like Metal Ger Solid and Silent Hills and if Kojima gets to work on the IP's will he:
A) Use the Fox Engine
B) Use the Decima Enhine
IF Sony have managed to gain license to Konami's IP like Metal Ger Solid and Silent Hills and if Kojima gets to work on the IP's will he:
A) Use the Fox Engine
B) Use the Decima Enhine
Gamernyc78
Banned
Metroid no disrespect but sometimes you miss or omit words in your sentences, is this done purposely or just because English isn't your native language? I assume it's because English is not your dominant language.
HAL-01
Member
What grinds my gears is people just claiming the official sources are lying because they don't like what theyre saying
Shmunter
Member
Anything is possible, but by the same token that flyover sequence could possibly have chewed through 100gig of streamed data in 15 seconds for all we know. And deliberate so, to push things for demo purposes. Doesn’t mean all games would be as intensive, but they can, and only on PS5 for the time being.
Being a demo, built in collaboration with Sony should be telling what the end goal is. Show off the engine, show off the consoles strengths - push it. Why would it be anything but this, it would be counterintuitive to restrain capability.
Ram vs stream speed is not closely related. The ram speed is needed for the GPU as a scratchpad, reading and writing massive amounts of calculations in and out, layers upon layers as part of the rendering process. Loading in assets can be magnitudes slower as a one way operation.
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ethomaz
Banned
If true then Sony start really strong next-gen... better than PS4 start.
ethomaz
Banned
For RE info for example he is the guy to know things.
Ascend
Member
Yeah because it makes total sense for the developer of a multiplatform engine to advertise and keep mentioning one specific console every chance he gets, even when it's not relevant to what he is explaining.
bitbydeath
Member
He did tho.
PS5 SSD Is 'Far Ahead' of High-End PCs, Epic Games CEO Says - IGN
The PlayStation 5 breakthroughs on SSD and storage are ahead of any PC alternatives.
ethomaz
Banned
I do the same on mobile... I type too fast that I end eating words... I needs to edit and fix after... sometimes I even read with the missing work.
I was reading his sentence as “Do you know if...” until you said it has missing works lol
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Shmunter
Member
Me too, I type, post. Proofread later, sometimes even hours later and realise it’s full of crap lol..
BadBreathOfTheWild
Member
What you said was clear and still 100% wrong.
- The last time Epic created a demonstration for UE4 it was released many years after it was first shown at GDC. WRONG (The last demo was the kite demo which was released 3 months after GDC)
- and instructions on how to fix it WRONG (Nothing were ever wrong with any of the demos. Nothing to fix. They worked out of the box and still do.)
- and instructions to build it for the latest version of UE4 WRONG (Not only do you not have to build the demos. All updates to the latest version are done by Epic the very same day a new version of UE4 releases. )
WRONG. The only demo that came out a year later was the infiltrator demo and that was a year after UE4 first launched publicly.
WRONG. UE4 was publicly released March 2014. Elemental Demo was available on release. Day one.
Again exactly 1 year after engine public release.
Nope you dont and i just proved it. Like I won't be here trying to tell you things about Unity and their engine.
I have only used unity once to run the book of the dead demo. I don't develop on it. I definitely won't pretend on an internet forum that i have any clue about unity, its status and history.
Lumen Already exists in UE4. Going all the way back to 4.8 (2015).
Lumen is a combination of currently existing tech (with improvements ofcourse) in UE4 called Distance Field GI, HeightField GI and SSGI. The only difference is now they brought back SVOGI from the dead and mixed it in.
The nextgen systems are just now powerfully enough for them to refocus on it and mixed them into one system (lumen). But the features already exist in the engine other than SVOGI. Development just wasn't focused on them till 2 years ago. Fortnight money changed everything. Epic games went on a hiring spree for the rendering team.
Heightfield GI
This demo uses heightfield GI only (already in engine since 2015)
Distance Field GI (already in engine since 2015)
SSGI (already in engine since 2019)
The killed SVOGI because PS4/XO wasn't powerful enough. Now its being resurrected (removed from engine in 2012 before release)
The engine wasn't public till March 2014 and the Elemental demo was released on launch day. What Epic games did was unprecedented, releasing assets and source code of practically everything. including their own developed games later (paragon). No one wanted Elemental demo because the entire concept of getting assets and source code is unprecedented.
When I said Lumen I was using it as shorthand for the wordy demo name. I was not referring to the lighting technology. I think there's a bit of misunderstanding there as I know nothing on the history of that and don't claim to know much about it at all, but it's interesting that you detailed it anyway.
When I said "last time", I meant it in the context of us getting an Unreal demo shown on unreleased and as of yet unseen PS4 hardware, and how long it took for us to get our hands on it in the PC space.
From memory I thought it was ony Elemental that was shown pre-release of PS4, but it must have been Infiltrator I was recalling. I was WRONG. in thinking the engine was released prior to the demo, but about right on the time we had to wait from seeing it at GDC to being able to run it on a PC. You're right that the demos could run from day one, it was importing assets from it into your own project that could be problematic without following a guide they provided. At least according to the press release that accompanied the demo being announced as available to try.
We should be getting a "preview release" of UE5 "next year", and a slated general release "late 2021". In your experience is there much time between the two? If they are around the same time, then the time line between seeing Nanite and getting to play it ourselves is about on par with the last Unreal Engine demo PS4 got before release, and we'll be waiting a long time either way.
BadBreathOfTheWild
Member
I find this forum's text editor really bizarre on mobile. On trying to enter new lines, or in moving the cursor around I get all kinds of weird behaviour where it tries to change to uppercase or lowercase, and straight up delete something on a line below if I add something on a line above. Could be my phone as it's on beta firmware, and I have no issues on a laptop.
It makes total sense if he's under an NDA except when mentioning certain aspects about one platform. He's also spoken more about PC IO than he has PS5's. It also makes total sense if the demo itself depends on the kind of IO PS5 delivered, even if the technology used in the demo and provided by the engine doesn't.
I guess we'll know for sure in 18-20 months or so?
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Gamernyc78
Banned
Yeah me too, that's why I always try to go back after I write a post and proof read it.
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Thedtrain
Member
It’s just an evolution of the way you type. “That” as “tht.” He just omits words where you omit letters
it triggers me a little every damn time bro
Rusco Da Vino
Member
Reality Check: Tim Sweeney (CEO of Epic Games)
1) "Sony's storage system is absolutely world class, not only the best in class in console but also the best in any platform"
Timestamped:
2) "This (demo) is what is possible in the absolute best hardware that is going to be relased at the end of the year"
Timestamped:
1) "Sony's storage system is absolutely world class, not only the best in class in console but also the best in any platform"
Timestamped:
2) "This (demo) is what is possible in the absolute best hardware that is going to be relased at the end of the year"
Timestamped:
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Gamernyc78
Banned
It’s just an evolution of the way you type. “That” as “tht.” He just omits words where you omit letters
it triggers me a little every damn time bro
I knew you were coming buttt I purposely omit letters due to texting on my phone and "4" speed.
Thedtrain
Member
Yea I’m used to it now. Just like giving you shitI knew you were coming buttt I purposely omit letters due to texting on my phone and "4" speed.
NewChoppa
Banned
That racing cockpit manufacturer that posted about GT7 took the tweets/instagram posts down and have put this up.
They say that they know nothing about GT7 and their graphic design people used a mock logo that's circulating around the internet...but I've never actually seen that exact variant of the logo before so???
I dunno man, weird that a company that has obvious links with Sony/PlayStation would slip up like that
They say that they know nothing about GT7 and their graphic design people used a mock logo that's circulating around the internet...but I've never actually seen that exact variant of the logo before so???
I dunno man, weird that a company that has obvious links with Sony/PlayStation would slip up like that
Bo_Hazem
Banned
ZeroFool
Member
Asus and Gigabyte can move pretty quickly on their high end motherboards (that naturally cost more than Scarlett). Mine has raid m.2 drives with cooling fans and heatsinks. Not that I can use that performance yet in games it does help me out in cad & video programs. I was getting pretty frustrated with my last build that was normal SSD, so I upgraded and the advantage for my use case has been refreshing.
Seeing that once you combine further architecture improvements and closed systems like consoles the gains will be greater. No doubt PC will also benefit to a greater and lesser degree. Some programs will be tailored to take advantage while others will ignore it for years. Look at how long it took some companies to embrace multi threaded programming.
To try and steer my thoughts back to a more succinct point, PC will make gains at huge price points and take a long time to reach low prices. The next two generations of graphics cards on the high end will be monsters.
Consoles will benefit from amazing 1st party Studios that are already crushing our eyes on a puny cpu and archaic "teraflops" with crappy IO solutions.
I say this based on what we have seen from AA developers already with tiny little offices. I enjoy the technology and the artistry of it all, so I don't care if a developer makes a game in the style of bioshock or the last of us.
I enjoy how they bring their art styles and worlds for us to enjoy.
Counting pixels is a huge amount of fun as are the debates, but I don't like getting bogged down in blaming a console if a developer only has the skills/money to make a modern game look like World of Warcraft. Some small studios have brought us great favorites to enjoy that barely looked better than Fortnite.
I do hope the rumors are true that the new dev tools and engines are easier for the studios to manage, because some big budget titles can sure use better stories and longer campaigns.
Hopefully, this is my 2 cents that actually makes sense. Ha
Edit: anyone see the new alpha user screenshots from Flight Simulator, what kind of black magic is that! I can't wait for the next Elder Scrolls if FS looks that good on the ground. (ignore my grammar, spelling, punctuation, and opinions)
icerock
Member
That GT7 tweet from Australian Cockpit manufacturer is now kaput, hmm.
BTW, I know there has already been a lot of talk obout UE5 demo. But, one thing which isn't being talked about is, how impressive the dynamic resolution/temporal injection is on that demo. Better scaling/reconstruction techniques will be focus of many devs aiming to push photo realistic visuals on next-gen machines. I mean Digital Foundry have built up their channel by counting pixels, and when they received uncompressed screenshots from the demo, along with the footage, they couldn't figure out the resolution. The figure of '1440p' which is where the PS5 is rendering that demo, was given to them by Epic themselves in an interview. Thereafter, you had likes of John and Dictator writing how they need to come up with new solutions to benchmark the visuals because traditional pixel counting won't cut it.
So, once again, if you're warring over resolution gains (above QHD), remember, as more devs push for better scaling techniques, the differences are gonna become even more imperceptible, if they aren't already.
BTW, I know there has already been a lot of talk obout UE5 demo. But, one thing which isn't being talked about is, how impressive the dynamic resolution/temporal injection is on that demo. Better scaling/reconstruction techniques will be focus of many devs aiming to push photo realistic visuals on next-gen machines. I mean Digital Foundry have built up their channel by counting pixels, and when they received uncompressed screenshots from the demo, along with the footage, they couldn't figure out the resolution. The figure of '1440p' which is where the PS5 is rendering that demo, was given to them by Epic themselves in an interview. Thereafter, you had likes of John and Dictator writing how they need to come up with new solutions to benchmark the visuals because traditional pixel counting won't cut it.
So, once again, if you're warring over resolution gains (above QHD), remember, as more devs push for better scaling techniques, the differences are gonna become even more imperceptible, if they aren't already.
Shmunter
Member
You have to switch off the Advanced editor in iOS to prevent the odd behavior. Click on the far right gear button in the editor tool bar.
If using iOS, apart from that Apple have messed up the text editing in it's own way in iOS13. I can no longer depend on selecting text, moving the cursor etc. It's as if they don't use their own products. I have no idea what the heck they are thinking.
BadBreathOfTheWild
Member
Flight Simulator is single-handedly selling me an XSX at the moment. I remember the days of deleting as much as I could from a 256Mb HDD without Windows crashing to have enough space to install Flight Simulator 95. So glad they're bringing it back and XSX is going to be bonkers value for getting in on some of that action.
TBiddy
Member
I love how this is coming from you.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
3liteDragon
Member
What are the chances that Sony has the exclusive marketing rights to GTA 6 and the upcoming new Batman game?
Barakov
Gold Member
Metroiddarks
Member
Ok If you want I can call you PC warrior for me that is okay (it's not like there is much difference).
Yes of course you can load the assets in the ram I never say the opposite but you actually think that demo was what 16 or 32 GB of assets after decompression.
They said even after of know the number of bandwidth of PS5 though could be exists a loading moment but for fortune was not necessary, that comes from a system which load around 8-9 GB/s
into the 16 GB of GDDR6 that sounds much more for 32 GB.
But okay let's say use brute force into ram and the vram of a 2080 ti (because at least you want a bottleneck in VRAM you need more than 8 GB) so lest say 11 GB of GDDR6 plus 32 GB of DDR4.
You are right know that sound like attractive engine for devs just telling you will need a pc equals or even superior than the 99% of PC, that is bad business for reach the performance
of the a console of a fraction of the price but if you think is good, well if they said that that would be a good publicity for Sony but they didn't. And even then you will have a legion of PC
gamer angry because a console cannot be better than a GPU more expensive so for which reason hurry up.
They still working in its engine and will not show you a number using brute force because again the NDA exists you just can say without the consent of Sony and AMD
the equivalence of its products just because my friend the PC master race want to know.
I am sure when NVIDIA or AMD make announce of his new GPUs maybe then can show, because if is AMD is probably the NDA will be more flexible or with NVIDIA use another
benchmark while NDA of some specifics expired. I am sure both companies will make enfasis in access directly to SSD in order to improve the memory if is necessary.
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