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Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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J_Gamer.exe

J_Gamer.exe

Member
pawel86ck said:
Let them dream 😉😅. Before they were saying TFLOPs are the most important thing and 12-13 TF PS5 was expected, but when they lost TFLOPS battle their focus now has shifted to SSD.

I/O improvement is important and PS5 SSD is faster, but I'm not even so sure if SSD advantage can be used in a meaningful way. We know for a fact 9 GB/s is still not nearly as fast as RAM, therefore GPU will not use SSD data transfer in real time, because then GPU would be extremely bottlenecked. Such data can be used only for streaming and I have my doubts developers will be able to use 9 GB/s transfer speed with limited RAM amount sony went for.

But lets assume somehow UE5 is using 9 GB/s transfer speed from PS5 SSD. Can we really expect developers will use such ultra quality assets everywhere in their games (this small UE5 tech demo was probably around 100 GB)? I expect many developers will rather want to keep their games sizes around 100 GB, and mamy will probably also aim for better performance, so they will be forced to reduce the level of details anyway. Even if they reduce the level of detail slightly who will notice pixel size imperfections in geometry? Maybe DF with their 400% magnification loupe, but not not normal gamers.

I will be not surpised if even XSX SSD will be more than enough for 12 TF GPU and limited game sizes. In fact I expect with 2 TF advantage (it's like entire PS4!) XSX multiplatforms will look and run better, because resolution and performance boost will be more noticeable than a little bit better assets.
Click to expand...

I disagree, resolution is almost impossible to spot for average people once above a certain level, especially with the clever methods used.

Digital foundry said of the method used on the unreal demo...

'In the demo we actually did use dynamic resolution, although it ends up rendering at about 1440p most of the time."

ARTICLE CONTINUES BELOW
Penwarden also confirms that the temporal accumulation system seen in Unreal Engine 4 - which essentially adds detail from prior frames to increase resolution in the current one - is also used in UE5 and in this demo. The transparency here from Epic is impressive. We've spent a long time poring over a range of 3840x2160 uncompressed PNG screenshots supplied by the firm. They defy pixel-counting, with resolution as a metric pretty much as meaningless as it is for, say, a Blu-ray movie.'

So with methods like this a bit more resolution is not that noticeable.

If they go for a bit more res the performance boost shouldnt be any different. In fact the PS5 CPU looks to have less workload on it. No io or sound. Only being clocked a fraction below the xbox it's likely without that that additional work it's the same or maybe in some cases slightly ahead.

Higher quality assets and no lod or pop on is a lot easier to see and show off.

A lot of people still watch comparisons on phones anyway at 1080p and itll look identical there and pop in and lod will be visible. But on the consoles in direct comparisons its likely for res its unnoticeable.
 
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pasterpl

pasterpl

Member
xacto said:
He added: "Game load times should be much shorter, and players should be able to move through immense game worlds in almost an instant".
Click to expand...

so basically what is he saying is that load times are still present but just much shorter (just recalling narrative of some that said that there will be no load times on ps5)
 
FranXico

FranXico

Member
pasterpl said:
so basically what is he saying is that load times are still present but just much shorter (just recalling narrative of some that said that there will be no load times on ps5)
Click to expand...
The promise basically is that loading will be fast enough to allow skipping load screens. We'll see how that holds up over time. In a few years time, assets will be so detailed that load screens and data streaming design tricks will gradually be coming back anyway.
 
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zubairali2

zubairali2

Member
bitbydeath said:
Yeah, I don’t know why they can’t be just excited for the games. It comes off as though they don’t even like Xbox but rather the confrontation.
Click to expand...

i think they cant really get over that dreadful xbox one reveal. i used to be a 360 owner and hated ps3 because they could never have made a game like halo. since the reveal i have never would have thought of all the games and achievements and the thousands of hours that i had on xbox just didnt mean anything to me anymore. ps4 reveal was really the one to make me say damn i really want to play those games. i even left my xbox buddies for it too crazy enough lol

i did buy the xbox one later on when they announced halo mcc. one of the best games i've ever played was being remastered in a collection was a dream come true. some of my friends bought their xbox ones around that time too it was exciting but goddamn the release was awful.

then there werent a lot of exclusives that for me didnt interest me. scalebound getting canceled and crackdown 3 getting delayed again and again just gives me more reason to use my ps4 since there were better games to play.

this is just my view but the ones who stuck around with the xbox since launch and stayed loyal to it are the ones who would start this shit. they havent got over the xbox one reveal, it always be a part of xbox history which when reminded its a pretty bad moment. when i bought a ps4 it was around the first year of college and at that time, im pretty sure you would have grown up by now to realize.

timdog, colt and the others clearly havent.
 
P

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
pasterpl said:
so basically what is he saying is that load times are still present but just much shorter (just recalling narrative of some that said that there will be no load times on ps5)
Click to expand...

Sure, it is possible that some loading screen could still be there, we will see how many reach this aspirational goal over time. I do not think Cerny actually promised zero loading times in 100% of the games, but we will see how far off he was or not sure.

Bandwodth is after all part of the equation, data still needs to be assembled and used to setup the game and allow the players to play and that still needs to be coded.
 
T-Cake

T-Cake

Member
THE:MILKMAN said:
Mark Cerny promised 'no load screens' in Road to PS5. We await to see if that is delivered by games.
Click to expand...

I think that "promise" is not going to be taken up by third parties who have to cater for PC systems (and perhaps Xbone/PS4) with HDDs still.
 
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thelastword

thelastword

Banned
pasterpl said:
lol...i didn’t imply anywhere in my post that xbsex io is faster than ps5 one, just stated the fact that xbsex and high end pc are simply more powerful (TFlops), i love how some here are seeing things and read/interpret stuff as some sort of attacks on the favourite plastic box
Click to expand...
More TFLOPS are great, but we've already discussed why simply having more TFLOPS is not a direct answer on what results we will get from Series X vs PS5 at runtime. PS5's architecture is much different to XSX. PS5 is just not running high TFLOPS, it's doing lots to minimize every single bottleneck in the pipeline and it has the fastest SSD. This accounts for many performance gains and advantages that you can't discount against XSX's higher TFLOPS, where the TFLOP divide is already the smallest between consoles ever.

Right now we are using logic, some extrapolation, some rumors to give us an inkling of what we may get out of PS5, it's really not out of left field though as PS5 has some insanely fast parts, likes it's GPU clocks and it's SSD, but on top of the SSD I think it's expensive IO controller will probably be the most important part they put in the console for practical reasons and favorable results for textures, streaming assets and reduced loadtimes. That sort of thing can and will impact how games are made, so there's a reason why we are excited.....We are happy that Series X is in the fray as well, just that we are a bit more familiar with the approach they have taken on hardware......
thurnishaleygw said:
Man, that Unreal 5 demo keeps on keeping on with the FUD and the meltdowns. Personally, I'm of the opinion that is extremely likely that the Series X can run that very same demo as is. But of course, you have all this talk from Sweeney about what a big deal the I/O capabilities are and then everything turns into a dick measuring contest. And in this particular case Series X's weenie is shorter, so insecurities come afloat, and people tend to make fools of themselves.

Jesus, just be excited about how great is looking, 'cause is gonna look great in every platform, and, if anything, blame your company of choice for not putting out there some jaw dropping next-gen footage out there first.



Anyway, back to the memes with me.
Click to expand...
I think we will be talking less of how impressive that Unreal demo is when we see Sony first party. In as much as the Unreal demo was impressive. Unreal may never take full advantage of the PS5 due to platform agnosticism, they have to ensure this runs on XB1 as well, even though dialed down significantly. So in essence, there will always be a compromise as not to push the PS5's unique advantages as hard as they can. SWWS on the other hand has no such limits. Their mandate and that of ICE is to push the PS5 as hard as they can and you better believe these guys will be taking advantage of the 12 gates in the IO unit and pushing on the 22GB/s via Kraken, they will maximize the efficiencies through the geometry engine to get lots of performance gains, they will push physics and animation like no other, through the CPU being offloaded by the Tempest engine and of course they will push sound like no other because of the equivalence of the Jaguar cores pushing the Tempest engine in PS5......Of course, for the experience itself, people forget the haptic feedback on the controller. Other devs are not going to push it as SWWS will because it's is theirs to show off and sell. Which reminds me, if Insomniac's Resistance teaser is what we think it means, it should be great listening to RFOM's incredible audio again. I can only imagine how much better the sound in GT will be as well.

So the thing about PS5 is that there is lots to be excited for, because all aspects of the hardware is ambitious. Some are excited for what the custom engines will wrought, some are excited by what the devs will do with such hardware, some are excited by the audio engine, some are excited by the SSD, some are excited by the insanely high GPU clocks, some are excited by the experiences they will have with the haptics in the controller, some are excited for the ai, physics and level design they will get when all of this comes together and is utilized. So the excitement comes from a logical place, it comes from a place where PS5 guys know that the first party studios will deliver and what is being pitched and proposed, like they've always done really.
Metroiddarks said:
Be prepared for the bugs of Bethesda created to the speed of SSD :messenger_face_screaming: or how FIFA 2022 will looks almost equals to FIFA 2027.
Click to expand...
Ha Bethesda, I hope Bethesda just use unreal and be done with it. Heard they were working on their engine though, so hopefully they come good after their last game... Fifa Fifa, for some reason, I think Fifa will look bonkers at 8K.....EA better bring the goods, they have no excuses. I know Battlefield will look amazing, a next gen Mirrors Edge or remakes of the first two will look stunning at 4k-8k.....Yet I want EA to give me a sequel to Dante's Inferno badly and I want them to remake the DeadSpace series. And please, no more 30fps NFS games and for that matter, lets get back to track racing like in Porsche Unleashed, High Stakes etc....
 
Audiophile

Audiophile

Gold Member
oldergamer said:
This is a tired argument. No the older console isn't going to hold back a title any more than a low end PC held back how gears of war 5 looked and played ( Which it didn't ). Games that scale is nothing new. Single games could have different features, render paths, you name it. Xbox is NOT tied to PC in anyway. I don't know where you get that failed narrative from.

...
Click to expand...

That's because the game was built around a HDD and even a low end PC has a better CPU than the Jaguar CPU found in consoles; there was nothing on a lower-end PC to hold it back.

The difference now is that we have Zen2 8C/16T CPUs @ 3.5GHz+ & an SSD+I/O Complex that ranges from 40-100x faster. These will allow fundamentally superior game worlds in terms of logic, simulation, gameplay, interaction and dynamism. Things will be possible next-gen that were not possible last gen, directly as a result of the HDD<>SSD & the Jag<>Zen2 gulf.

You can scale graphics to a degree, but you can't scale how the game works unless you're willing to make a different game.

Horizon Zero Dawn is one such eg. Guerilla wanted to do flying mounts, but the HDD was too slow, now with an SSD it'll be possible. That's a fundamental gameplay function that is now achievable, if Guerilla still intend to do this with HZD2 but were forced to release it on PS4 and PS5, then they wouldn't be able to do it, therefore, PS4 would be holding PS5 back.
 
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pawel86ck

pawel86ck

Banned
BadBreathOfTheWild said:
These are the two points I find most interesting to think about.
Sony claim the IO speed they’ve put money and die space into can be used in a meaningful way and opens up a new way to design games in the first place.
As gamers it can sound pointlessly excessive—especially if we’re hoping it is—but then the implication of that being true is that after years of talking with Epic and others about future rendering and IO technology for gaming, Sony’s console (which is always a compromised balance) puts IO front and centre, where just throwing in pretty standard NVMe PC spec IO would have been far cheaper and simpler, saving money and die space to pack in way more CUs and get an easy “win” on the TF number.

It’s not enough to just say that it can’t be used in a meaningful way when talking about something as tightly budgeted and integrated as a console. To say it’s excessive is to say Sony massively fucked up and were completely mistaken in their analysis of what is needed.
That’s the bit I find most difficult to just accept, but if true, the most significant story of this entire thing.
There are people here (not necessarily yourself) that seem convinced the faster IO won’t do anything and that NVMe is enough, or more than enough. Why did Sony mistakenly strongly feel otherwise?


On your second point, I think game studios will be very happy if they don’t need to make multiple versions of everything they make, and spend time profiling and tuning LODs if that same time and effort could instead be put into more assets, or more world detail, or even something more ambitious.
The scope of a game isn’t limited by what the developers are able to do, but how much time and money they can commit to a single game. Anything that saves time in an area that doesn’t add anything to the game but just helps it to run and look as they need it to will be time spent on game mechanics and other interesting stuff.
That’s the immediate benefit I can imagine from fast IO being paired with a single source asset made once.
Click to expand...
I can see how faster streaming (faster SSD data transfer) can impact performance and the level of details. UE5 tech demo proves SSD streaming is a game changer, because otherwise it wouldnt be possible to fit hundreds of uncompromised assets (CGI like quality) into just 16 GB RAM. But can we really expect developers will use such quality assets in entire game? Such game would be over 800 GB! XSX SSD may look weak in comparison to PS5 SSD, but it's still very capable SSD on it's own and I doubt XSX games will look worse when assets quality will have to be limited anyway because of SDD 800 GB size.
 
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R

roops67

Member
Bo_Hazem said:
Man, it's sad that many started appreciating the game when it got released for free on PS Plus. Not sure what really happened with the studio but the game has the potential to be the best car game out their. To me it felt like Ridge Racer back in the day on PS1, and that's a mistake to have no modifications or more depth into the game. Man, how the cam shakes when you're reaching mental speed on the Ferrari FXX K:





It's a major shame that it didn't get a PS4 Pro patch, it's still feels next gen. DriveClub and The Order 1886 are the phenomena of current gen, very bad reception yet so much potential for something legendary. DC suffered from MP connectivity, that what gave it bad press.

GT Sport looks dull indeed to me, and that static 3rd person video cam doesn't help but you can fix the camera and tweak how much sway it adds when you turn. I can't deny its professionalism but I think DC is better. Funny that one guy made an in-depth comparison between the two only a week ago:




And of course, playing on AT is shit, MT is always the optimal choice for full control, and most enjoyable. So far, The Crew 2 is my best car game overall, and DriveClub has the best physics, sounds, atmosphere. Didn't try Project Cars, GT Sport, or Assetto Corsa this gen. I can see Project Cars being the ultimate in terms of physics from what I've seen so far, not sure though.
Click to expand...

I really HATE Sony for closing down Evolution Studio, whoever made that decision should have been taken out an shot! So the studio messed-up a teensy bit... overshot the development time of DriveClub by a whole year (which supposed to have been a PS4 debut release) , and then underestimated the load on the servers causing even further setback. But all these setbacks should have been attributed to the man in charge of the project, not the whole dev team. Sony lost a great asset, all the successes of evolution studio's past shoulda easily overshadowed this Royal Cockup, in the past they were a jewel in Sony's Crown! The real reason I'm so bitter about all this... even though DriveClub stood on its own and was a great tech achievement, I really wish they didn't make it but should have concentrated on MotorStorm for ps4! The MAIN reason I bought the PS4 was I was so hyped about getting MotorStorm on it, anticipated sooo-long for its release, waiting to enjoying the updated graphics and chaotic physics that was pure exhilaration! but it never happened cos of this DriveClub fiasco :messenger_confounded:. Can you imagine my frustration, can you? CodeMaster's OnRush is too little too late, gameplay is nothing like MororStorm!!

Rant over
 
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Handy Fake

Handy Fake

Member
pawel86ck said:
I can see how faster streaming (faster SSD data transfer) can impact performance and the level of details. UE5 tech demo proves SSD streaming is a game changer, because otherwise it wouldnt be possible to fit hundreds of uncompromised assets (CGI like quality) into just 16 GB RAM. But can we really expect developers will use such quality assets in entire game? Such game would be over 800 GB and therefore developers can be forced to limit assets quality anyway. XSX SSD may look weak in comparison to PS5, but it's still very capable SSD on it's own (I bet 99% PC gamers dont play on such fast SSD, and there are also bigger I/O bottlenecks on PC) and I doubt XSX games will look worse because of it.
Click to expand...
I suppose it depends on the dev team.
I would say that the time saved in having to streamline assets could be used to create more though?
 
Audiophile

Audiophile

Gold Member
Even if they're capable of instant in some cases I expect there to be at least a 1 second or so transition. Instant switching with nothing sounds nice in theory but it can feel incredibly janky and unpolished, especially when there's even the slightest hiccup.

I don't know if anyone here has installed custom launchers on an android phone and disabled transitions. Feels clunky as hell.

I think 1-2 seconds with a simplistic fade/zoom animation and a little "ding" can give a sense of fluidity and tactility.

I recall Cerny effectively saying in The Road to PS5 that transitions too fast can be jarring and they may need to artificially slow them down.
 
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Handy Fake

Handy Fake

Member
Audiophile said:
Even if they're capable of instant in some cases I expect there to be at least a 1 second or so transition. Instant switching with nothing sounds nice in theory but it can feel incredibly janky and unpolished, especially when there's even the slightest hiccup.

I don't know if anyone here has installed custom launchers on an android phone and disabled transitions. Feels clunky as hell.

I think 1-2 seconds with a simplistic fade/zoom animation and a little "ding" can give a sense of fluidity and tactility.
Click to expand...
In Cerny's presentation, he mentioned fast travel and a simple "fade out, fade in", which will probably be the norm I'd reckon.
 
SportsFan581

SportsFan581

Member
geordiemp said:
Your thinking about the wrong components, GPUs scale, CPUs dont so much.

The concept has NOTHING to do with GPU scaling.

So, is the game written for a Zen 2 or a Jaguar.

Games written for Ps4 / XB1 will of course run easily upscaled on the new consoles.

Games written for new consoles CPU power will not run on the current gen toasters.

Making games cross gen is limiting enemy numbers, physics and game design to toaster logic.

Jaguar games need to die already.
Click to expand...

CPU scaling has been around for a long time in games. You must have missed it.

Sliders that effect NPC density, density of enemy swarms, physics, etc. have existed forever. Those are techniques used, in part, to lower CPU minimum requirements.
 
MasterCornholio

MasterCornholio

Member
bitbydeath said:
Honest question, does PlayStation have fanboys that make up things about the competition or literally stalk people or say creepy things like offering shoe shining?

Who if they do? It always seems to be the Xbox camp for some reason that takes things too far from what I’ve seen.
Click to expand...

I think the problem here is that the worst fanboys came together and created a discord group whose goal is to spread FUD around like crazy. They are a pretty loud bunch but they shouldn't be seen as representative of their community.

The PlayStation community could have a similar group however I haven't seen any proof of that yet. But I have seen proof of that Xbox discord group so I know they exist.
 
Q

quest

Not Banned from OT
Handy Fake said:
I suppose it depends on the dev team.
I would say that the time saved in having to streamline assets could be used to create more though?
Click to expand...
Except those still have to be made for pc and x series. So you propose another set of assets that only 1 platform can use that cant be expensed over other platforms. I'm talking about multiplatform games. So 4k asset normal build and a 8k Hollywood asset build just for Sony. I think epic really set unrealistic expectations for people that every multiplatform will be getting that type of asset level.
 
DeepEnigma

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
Bo_Hazem said:
Man, it's sad that many started appreciating the game when it got released for free on PS Plus. Not sure what really happened with the studio but the game has the potential to be the best car game out their. To me it felt like Ridge Racer back in the day on PS1, and that's a mistake to have no modifications or more depth into the game. Man, how the cam shakes when you're reaching mental speed on the Ferrari FXX K:





It's a major shame that it didn't get a PS4 Pro patch, it's still feels next gen. DriveClub and The Order 1886 are the phenomena of current gen, very bad reception yet so much potential for something legendary. DC suffered from MP connectivity, that what gave it bad press.

GT Sport looks dull indeed to me, and that static 3rd person video cam doesn't help but you can fix the camera and tweak how much sway it adds when you turn. I can't deny its professionalism but I think DC is better. Funny that one guy made an in-depth comparison between the two only a week ago:




And of course, playing on AT is shit, MT is always the optimal choice for full control, and most enjoyable. So far, The Crew 2 is my best car game overall, and DriveClub has the best physics, sounds, atmosphere. Didn't try Project Cars, GT Sport, or Assetto Corsa this gen. I can see Project Cars being the ultimate in terms of physics from what I've seen so far, not sure though.
Click to expand...


I effin love Driveclub and still play it till this day. That game, along with Bloodborne have permanent installs on my PS4 and stay in rotation, as they will on the PS5.

So glad I double dipped on both physical and digital for those two gems.
 
FranXico

FranXico

Member
Entroyp said:
That video was a so fun to watch. Him being a developer and appreciating (and actually understanding) what Cerny did for developers with no cynicism or bias. Can’t wait for part 2.
Click to expand...
That's the thing, though. He even was critical. "Really guys, it's going to be much faster, but it only is such a massive jump, because it was really slow in the PS4".
This is greatly appreciated.
 
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FranXico

FranXico

Member
Vaztu said:
In 30 mins, Red Gaming Tech's Paul will be live on a podcast (BRAP) talking about next-gen

Click to expand...

After that (very unfair) backlash he got just for sharing a speculation that there might be PS5 hardware features that might later be used in RDNA3, I expect him to be extremely careful with what he says and wave his Xbox loyalty flag really hard, out of fear of harassment and of losing subscribers.
 
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