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Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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P

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
psorcerer said:
I don't understand why people call it "SSD".
It's clearly not.
It will probably have k/v api. No block storage there.
You should think of it as an extension to RAM.
Flash chips can have a pretty comparable latency to a high throughput DDR.
If I would be Cerny, I would have used flash chips as a persistent RAM. With DRAM acting as a write-back cache.
Imagine all your games always paused in RAM. No loading times. Essentially you have a 1TB of RAM. You can play any of them at any time.
But I suppose AMD has not enough experience in flash controllers to pull it off.
Click to expand...

Looking at Sony’s recent SSD patents such as the SonGoku SonGoku one and my post with the excerpts from the patent you may be into something ;).
 
Ar¢tos

Ar¢tos

Member
The issue now is if the hdd speed limitations of PC (since there is no mandatory m.2 ssd there) will hamper console games. You can't design a game world based on 3GB/s asset streaming if that game world needs to run on 50MB/s pc hdds.
 
Amey

Amey

Member
ethomaz said:


If that is really true then PS5 will have a IO solution that even high-end PC doesn’t have.

Trully a game changer.
Click to expand...


16GB vRAM and 2TB Solid State Graphics Memory onboard
radeonprossg001.jpg
 
P

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
ColdToffee said:
The issue now is if the hdd speed limitations of PC (since there is no mandatory m.2 ssd there) will hamper console games. You can't design a game world based on 3GB/s asset streaming if that game world needs to run on 50MB/s pc hdds.
Click to expand...

Thanks exclusive or console led games... in that case some PC setups may have to jump forward.
 
P

psorcerer

Banned
Panajev2001a said:
Uh... secondary CPU dedicated to I/O detected
Click to expand...

All SSD controllers have "secondary CPU", the logic of storing blocks of data on flash is pretty complex.
Modern flash controllers for SSDs have multicore ARM CPUs and gigs of RAM onboard.

Panajev2001a said:
Stop the presses... enters the file archive and related API’s for games to use:
Click to expand...

It's not that impressive.
As I've said in different forum: Cerny is too kind to PC developers, exactly as he was in PS4 era, where they made a DX9/10 compatibility layer which all the early PS4 multiplatform games used, although it massively hindered the achievable performance.
So here we have and object store API, and a promise that some type of block storage interface will be present.
As usual (contrary to what crazy people who know shit about hardware and interfaces think) PC gaming and catering to multiplatform devs drags the console power down.
 
Aceofspades

Aceofspades

Banned
ethomaz said:


If that is really true then PS5 will have a IO solution that even high-end PC doesn’t have.

Trully a game changer.
Click to expand...


Open world games will benefit greatly from this. I like how Sony thinks ahead when designing their consoles while MS double down on current technologies and Nintendo....well... Take technologies from a decade ago 🤣
 
P

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
psorcerer said:
All SSD controllers have "secondary CPU", the logic of storing blocks of data on flash is pretty complex.
Modern flash controllers for SSDs have multicore ARM CPUs and gigs of RAM onboard.
Click to expand...

Hehe, it was a bit in jest indeed, but I felt it talked more about expanding the role of the current secondary ARM CPU in PS4 handling I/O, video encoding/decoding, encryption, and background operations.

Similar to the way the T2 chip operates in modern Mac machines, a layer/accelerator on top of the SSD controller

It's not that impressive.
As I've said in different forum: Cerny is too kind to PC developers, exactly as he was in PS4 era, where they made a DX9/10 compatibility layer which all the early PS4 multiplatform games used, although it massively hindered the achievable performance.
So here we have and object store API, and a promise that some type of block storage interface will be present.
As usual (contrary to what crazy people who know shit about hardware and interfaces think) PC gaming and catering to multiplatform devs drags the console power down.
Click to expand...

It is impressive compared to the PC like trajectory consoles have been taking and to be fair about even how conservative other full stack vendors are evolving their platforms (cough... Apple... cough...). We will see if they will evolve this to a model more similar to what you were presenting (main RAM as cache for a super large virtual memory layer), but I think you are underselling the change of gears potentially happening here. The direction is good and promising IMHO.

You do have to pragmatically admit though that a strong part of setting up PS4’s strategy was reducing the time to market and developer costs in general and that did pay off in spades for them.... first parties were able to sail past that issue and some third parties started to progressively catchup. Time to polygon was a simple way to explain that, but effective... and the system did have more for developers who, over time, wanted to explore unique device features.
 
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lynux3

Member
Snake29 said:
I still believe that full PlayStation eco system BC will be one of the unannounced surprises when they will do a full PS5 reveal.
Click to expand...
That would be absolutely amazing, but I got to keep my expectations low on that actually happening. I would love nothing more than to be able to play my entire library on a single device.
 
TeamGhobad

TeamGhobad

Banned
wutnau said:
LOD pop-in has definitely been a "feature" of this generation - if we can get rid of it, I'm all for it.
Click to expand...

i havent noticed any popin this gen. huge problem with the xbox360, especially the last scene in mass effect that ending montage was all popins.
 
farmerboy

farmerboy

Member
So what are the odds MS has the "same" ssd setup?

Or, if you prefer, do you all think PS's ssd configuration will be unique to them?
 
DeepEnigma

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
ColdToffee said:
The issue now is if the hdd speed limitations of PC (since there is no mandatory m.2 ssd there) will hamper console games. You can't design a game world based on 3GB/s asset streaming if that game world needs to run on 50MB/s pc hdds.
Click to expand...

Those games will just take longer to load on the PCs without the tech.
 
nowhat

nowhat

Member
luminaire28 said:
The lack of bc was one of the main things that made me not bother with the ps4 and just build a pc. If the ps5 has bc for ps1-4 discs and digital from ps3-4 i would certainly buy one.
Click to expand...
Honestly, how big of a deal would PS1/2 support be? Especially since you have a PC, there are plenty of emulators to choose from.
 
Ellery

Ellery

Member
wutnau said:
Honestly, how big of a deal would PS1/2 support be? Especially since you have a PC, there are plenty of emulators to choose from.
Click to expand...

For me it would be a huge deal. I would gladly pay extra for that.
I mean I can live without it and I would almost certainly play more PS4 and PS5 games than PS1 and 2 games, but it would still be extremely nice to have especially for "comfort" so I can kind can connect 1 box to my TV to have it all and I have one wiredless controller instead of connecting 4 consoles to my TV where 2 of them need wired controllers (or I buy extra stuff but no thanks).

If I could pick between a 12TF PS5 no BC at all and a 9TF PS5 with p1,2,3,4 BC I'd pick the 9TF PS5 10 out of 10 times.
 
LordOfChaos

LordOfChaos

Member
psorcerer said:
AFAIK all GNM stuff is under NDA. I.e. imminent lawsuit afterwards.
Click to expand...

It's on a throwaway with no identifiable information, and the leak itself would be enough anyways. But I'll take that as fair, which leaker has produced any evidence that they are who they say they are, and said something anyone into hardware couldn't have made sound plausible?

The SSD stuff sounds cool, but any of us reading the last few pages here could have wrote a post that sounded as plausible as that. I'm not saying if it's true or not, I'm just looking for a higher standard of confirmation somehow.


Playing along though: The HBCC name drop is curious.
In a nutshell, HBCC is, as its “high-bandwidth cache controller” name gives away, a complement to the framebuffer (or “high-bandwidth cache” as AMD now calls it) that will treat the VRAM as a last-level cache, and some system memory as VRAM. If a resource is requested by the GPU, but it’s not currently in video memory, the memory pages relating to the data will be pulled in to Vega’s HBC (framebuffer) for quicker access, while unused pages will be flushed out.
Click to expand...
HBCC 1) Treats VRAM as a last level cache

2) Dips into system RAM as VRAM

What this has to do with the custom SSD is curious. I could imagine something like SSG, a large solid state drive directly on the GPU/APU, but this is an additional technology than HBCC, though enabled by it.


If we get SSG in a console...I even more wish for Other OS support again lol, getting that in a consumer friendly cost would be kind of crazy compared to what SSGs go for (just $6,999 or so)


AMD says the SSG portion of the card can read data at up to 8GB/s and write data at up to 6GB/s off the NAND, already in excess of both PCI-E 3 and 4 limits
 
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SonGoku

SonGoku

Member
ColdToffee said:
The issue now is if the hdd speed limitations of PC (since there is no mandatory m.2 ssd there) will hamper console games. You can't design a game world based on 3GB/s asset streaming if that game world needs to run on 50MB/s pc hdds.
Click to expand...
Not necessarily, PCs have access to huge pools of ram in addition to VRAM, that should be enough to get the same performance benefits (speculative preloading) the only downside will be longer initial load times. By the time consoles launch 16GB and 32GB of DDR4 should be common place in gaming PCs and GPUs will come with minimum 8GB VRAM, coupled with a cheap SATA3 SSD (500MB/s) should be enough to get potentially better streaming performance.
 
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Tarin02543

Tarin02543

Member
ElleryJamesRoberts said:
For me it would be a huge deal. I would gladly pay extra for that.
I mean I can live without it and I would almost certainly play more PS4 and PS5 games than PS1 and 2 games, but it would still be extremely nice to have especially for "comfort" so I can kind can connect 1 box to my TV to have it all and I have one wiredless controller instead of connecting 4 consoles to my TV where 2 of them need wired controllers (or I buy extra stuff but no thanks).

If I could pick between a 12TF PS5 no BC at all and a 9TF PS5 with p1,2,3,4 BC I'd pick the 9TF PS5 10 out of 10 times.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't want dirty ps1 games to contaminate my brand new ps5 bluray optics.
 
bhunachicken

bhunachicken

Member
PS4 BC on the PS5 is what is making me lean towards a day 1 purchase. Price and launch titles will come into effect, too.

If it turns out that The Last of Us, Part 2 is a cross gen game available from day 1 on the PS5, it's an immediate buy for me (I'd skip the PS4 version).
 
ethomaz

ethomaz

Banned
Interesting finding...

www.resetera.com

Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread - MY ANACONDA DON'T WANT NONE

Did anyone else notice this? From that Reddit post from a supposed developer about the PS5 SSD that has already been posted and talked about: https://www.reddit.com/r/PS5/comments/bso1jg/the_storage_solution_in_the_devkit_is_a_real_game/ If you go to the user...
www.resetera.com www.resetera.com

Basically the full specs... pretty clever leak from the guy if true... 18GB HBM2 too.

PS. I’m on phone so it is hard to copy the images to post here.
 
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Ellery

Ellery

Member
ethomaz said:
Stay with Xbox please.

I just want the best experience for next-gen games.
Click to expand...

holy ... maybe go easy on the toxicity.
This is just what I would rather do.

(Edit : I actually never owned an Xbox console in my life)

SonGoku said:
Yeah no thanks, i rather not sacrifice performance for BC I'd barely use, if you want to play PS3 games get a PS3, thats the mistake WiiU made. You can get way better PS1/PS2 emulation on PC and keep your PS3
Click to expand...

That is okay and understandable.
I mean I was talking about a highly hypothetical scenario which won't happen.
The PS5 will only have PS4 BC and as much performance as Sony thinks it is right.

I am a bit shocked that people reacted the way they did to that to a highly hypothetical opinion that has no base in reality and won't happen
 
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ethomaz

ethomaz

Banned
I was kinda joking on my post... well half because I trully prefer a better machine for next-gen games over BC.

The main focus of a new console should never be old stuffs.

BC is a nice feature to have but the focus should be next-gen games first.
 
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CyberPanda

CyberPanda

Banned
ethomaz said:
Interesting finding...

www.resetera.com

Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread - MY ANACONDA DON'T WANT NONE

Did anyone else notice this? From that Reddit post from a supposed developer about the PS5 SSD that has already been posted and talked about: https://www.reddit.com/r/PS5/comments/bso1jg/the_storage_solution_in_the_devkit_is_a_real_game/ If you go to the user...
www.resetera.com www.resetera.com

Basically the full specs... pretty clever leak from the guy if true... 18GB HBM2 too.

PS. I’m on phone so it is hard to copy the images to post here.
Click to expand...
11.38 tflops. Is that a dev kit I presume?
 
Imtjnotu

Imtjnotu

Member
ethomaz said:
Interesting finding...

www.resetera.com

Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread - MY ANACONDA DON'T WANT NONE

Did anyone else notice this? From that Reddit post from a supposed developer about the PS5 SSD that has already been posted and talked about: https://www.reddit.com/r/PS5/comments/bso1jg/the_storage_solution_in_the_devkit_is_a_real_game/ If you go to the user...
www.resetera.com www.resetera.com

Basically the full specs... pretty clever leak from the guy if true... 18GB HBM2 too.

PS. I’m on phone so it is hard to copy the images to post here.
Click to expand...
11TF
18 gigs of Vram
HBM2-3 at 700+gbps
 
Insane Metal

Insane Metal

Member
Last edited:
CyberPanda

CyberPanda

Banned
ethomaz said:
Actually this comments made no sense... the app he used shows like that and the data are accurate to the specs.

I can’t even understand what this Colbert is talking.
Click to expand...
More users after his post even stated it’s fake af. And the leak implies there’s a 4 stack HBM2! Yea, not happening.
 
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