ethomaz
Banned
Cerny said they could go higher but it was breaking the game logic.
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Mr Moose
Member
That screwdriver is fucking massive.
T
Three Jackdaws
Unconfirmed Member
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geordiemp
Member
What have you seen to suggest that ps5 will perform at reduced resolution ?
DF video of Sekiro had XSX at 1800p and around 50-55 FPS. Do you think ps5 will be less frame rate or a locked 60 ?
I know what I think ps5 will do. Wait until you see results before assuming.....
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chilichote
Member
But why can AMD then clock faster?
DeeDogg_
Banned
Yes you’re the 3rd guy to post this persons tweet.
kyliethicc
Member
So the PS5 SSD is 6 x 128 GiB of Toshiba 3D TLC NAND, 12 channels, 5.5 GB/s raw read, and has its own custom flash controller (built on TSMC 7nm node like the SoC?)
For comparison, the Samsung 980 Pro 1 TB M2 SSD is 2 x 512 GiB of Samsung 3D TLC NAND, most likely 4 or 8 channels, 7 GB/s raw read, and has its own custom ARM-based flash controller built on the Samsung 8nm node.
ethomaz
Banned
I'm not sure which logic Cerny tried to run.... to be fair I said game logic but I believe he said logic only.
It can be a specific issue with what custom Sony has inside the APU.
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BatSu
Member
Yes, the same, but Included in the Game Pass
Mr Moose
Member
He's just posting his own tweets here.
kyliethicc
Member
Except PCIe Gen3x4 is just as fast as PCIe Gen4x2.
chilichote
Member
Well, I haven't seen anything, but in my opinion that is consensus here (regarding the resolution).What have you seen to suggest that ps5 will perform at reduced resolution ?
DF video of Sekiro had XSX at 1800p and around 50-55 FPS. Do you think ps5 will be less frame rate or a locked 60 ?
I know what I think ps5 will do.
In this respect, please do not feel challenged personally, I just want to understand why Sony puts so much effort into achieving an almost similar result.
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Bo_Hazem
Banned
GreyHand23
Member
If I had to guess, Sony needed to finalize the chip much sooner than AMD. AMD likely continued to work on RDNA2 to work out whatever was preventing it from clocking higher.
BattleScar
Member
Unlikely. Even though that chip is tiny and yields are very high on N7, it not worth wasting really very expensive 7nm wafers on a memory controller. They probably used an older/cheaper node. Might not even be fabbed at TSMC at all.
kyliethicc
Member
Its all they needed with 52 CUs to hit 12 TF. That was their only goal.
jimbojim
Banned
ethomaz
Banned
Yeap let’s delivery 12TFs when we could reach 13TFs or more.
kyliethicc
Member
PC vs Console. Different architecture and logic. Maybe it has to do with PS4 back compat. Idk, but I doubt Cerny was wrong. RX 6000 GPUs are their own thing really.
Maybe it was even an issue for AMD too, but they justnsolved the problem like 3 months ago. But its too late to upclock the PS5 die because the whole chip and system is already built.
Imtjnotu
Member
I/o blocked looked roughly the same size as the apu die
geordiemp
Member
I think the fast GPU clocks will surprise, we have already seen native 4K with ray tracing and 4k60 from some sony games.
XSX die is bigger, so 2 ways to skin the cat, likely both will perform so similar anyway.
IT will be interesting to see the PC RDNA2 parts, that will tell us a lot of the story.
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ethomaz
Banned
The I/O block is inside the APU.
Handy Fake
Member
Probably speaking from my well-tone sphincter, but I'd hazard a guess that it plays silly buggers with the custom IO at higher levels.
onesvenus
Member
Ok, can you please provide some of those public information you are basing your assumptions on?
Just recently we were saying that heat was a function of power and from the PS5 video we now know that the power supply in PS5 is 350W vs 300W in the XSX. Assuming that both use more or less the same % of available power, why are you saying "you will have more problems with an XSX than with a PS5"?
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Three Jackdaws
Unconfirmed Member
I think RDNA 2 has been in development for a while now, at the time of the PS5 development it was leaked that RDNA 2 was struggling to go over 2.23 Ghz because there was a breakdown in logic, the same reason Mark Cerny cited.
However (allegedly) in recent months the issue was resolved and now the RDNA 2 cards can clock over 2.23 Ghz, that being said I'm guessing Cerny and his team were still satisfied and happy with the 2.23 Ghz target they achieved.
danielJackson
Banned
Maybe because it is just GPU and not cpu+gpu like in console APU?
Like if there is some interference or APU have some limitations that pure gpu chips dont have. And cooling could be another thing, and power consumption/routing
geordiemp
Member
I assume the PC RDNA2 parts at 1.9 Ghz and 2.5 Ghz are the same reasoning ?
I dont think so, there will be small tweaks to process and assembly between the 2 RDNA2 PC parts, even if they are all RDNA2 and 7nm.
Or maybe AMD just chose to clock some lower for the lols
. Nope.Lets find out at RDNA2 AMD showing.
Its also more complicated by the XSX being dual purpose, (server) so MS had to design with both applications in mind.
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jasondefaoite
Member
Assume the referral was to the Flash Controller ...
ethomaz
Banned
The SSD controller is the chip you see... every SSD needs one.
The I/O com stroller is the one part of the APU.
Zathalus
Member
Considering we know that the PS5 SOC is Oberon and that had 3 clock states with 2 matching the PS4 and PS4 Pro clock speeds, that would imply the BC on the PS5 has 3 modes that it toggles between when playing previous generation games. That information lines up with the Mark Cerny presentation as well:What have you seen to suggest that ps5 will perform at reduced resolution ?
DF video of Sekiro had XSX at 1800p and around 50-55 FPS. Do you think ps5 will be less frame rate or a locked 60 ?
I know what I think ps5 will do. Wait until you see results before assuming.....
Some PS4 and PS4 Pro games might be patched to run in 'Native' mode but at this point nobody knows what games they will be (other then those already announced to get next-gen specific patches). PS4 legacy and Pro legacy modes exist for a reason. I wouldn't make assumptions about PS5 BC performance until the games can be directly compared.
kyliethicc
Member
Even if AMD solved that issue, it'd be too late for Sony. The dies were already fabbed, systems built, games being made, etc.
AMD for their GPUs don't have the same issue, different product and timeline.
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
PC GPUs often have the power consumption of an entire console.
Consoles have to manage an entire PCs worth of components on a smaller power budget. (clock speeds directly relate to power consumption)
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kyliethicc
Member
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Three Jackdaws
Unconfirmed Member
Yes exactly! I should have added that into the end tbh
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
IMO this is the entire reason XSS exists.
MS wants a cost effective way to stream next-gen games to phones that don't need the power of the XSX and so the servers will be far cheaper/easier to power/cool/etc.
I imagine if/when they outfit xCloud with XSX level hardware that will only be used for 4k streaming, and might cost user's more.
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Lysandros
Member
"On-chip logic"...
geordiemp
Member
Sonys power budget for the whole power draw for the console vs GPU cards .....they are very different.
Considering we know that the PS5 SOC is Oberon and that had 3 clock states with 2 matching the PS4 and PS4 Pro clock speeds, that would imply the BC on the PS5 has 3 modes that it toggles between when playing previous generation games. That information lines up with the Mark Cerny presentation as well:
Some PS4 and PS4 Pro games might be patched to run in 'Native' mode but at this point nobody knows what games they will be (other then those already announced to get next-gen specific patches). PS4 legacy and Pro legacy modes exist for a reason. I wouldn't make assumptions about PS5 BC performance until the games can be directly compared.
I am not making any assumptions, just quietly confident.
We dont know which games will use ps4 pro mode and boost to 2.23 Ghz, but as i have a pro most ps4 games seem to run in boost mode no problem on pro at least.
Sekiro did run fairly well for last gen consoles on ps4 pro 30-45 FPS at 1800p with its GPU at 911 MHz, IF ps5 if it can run it at 2.23 Ghz then I am expecting good things.....
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Bo_Hazem
Banned
This is how you be a Samurai, respect your clan, give the teardown honor to a true engineer, and not anyone, Yasuhiro Ootori, VP, Mechanical Design Department, Hardware Design Division at Sony Interactive Entertainment. Not some amateur youtuber expert-wannabe.
And really appreciate that it was represented in Japanese, makes it even more epic!
And really appreciate that it was represented in Japanese, makes it even more epic!
chilichote
Member
That sounds plausible on the first look^^
ArcaneNLSC
Member
the PS5 tear down video has already hit 1,548,691 views
Lysandros
Member
APU vs discrete GPU maybe?..
kyliethicc
Member
Well I've thought recently that the reason Xbox went with a 320 bit bus was dual purpose.I assume the PC RDNA2 parts at 1.9 Ghz and 2.5 Ghz are the same reasoning ?
I dont think so, there will be small tweaks to process and assembly between the 2 RDNA2 PC parts, even if they are all RDNA2 and 7nm.
Or maybe AMD just chose to clock some lower for the lols
Lets find out at RDNA2 AMD showing.
Its also more complicated by the XSX being dial purpose, (server) so MS had to design with both applications in mind.
One was to increase bandwidth if 448 GB/s wasn't enough for them, but second was because Xbox One games use 5 GB of RAM. To run 4 games, as Series X chip can, you'd need 20 GB of memory. The natural bus for 20 GB is 320 bit, same as XSX. I bet the Xcloud chips have 20 GB instead of 16 GB.
But it seems obvious they just arrived at clock by just doing the math for 12 TF if they had 52 active CUs. They did the same thing with the Series S and its 4TF, and same with the One X with its 6 TFs.
AMD RX 6000 GPUs might end up being clocked differently for segmentation purposes if AMD wants certain higher priced cards to have better performance, in order to upsell customers. They did that with the 5000 series GPUs.
I also think that it has something to do with the dual purpose of the chip and the server part. I am not a server engineer, but I think in a server environment it might be better to run your chips at constant speed for thermal management. If you have several of the XSX socs in one server rack, I think you might want to run them around the same thermals. (All speculation)
Not sure about the latter, but another thing is that Microsoft can't diverge from PC too much due to their xcloud/azure dual purpose and also their first party software has to account for typical pc users.
I have a question, is ps now going to include any ps5 exclusive games at launch and what servers are running them? Azure ones where they are 'emulating' the hardware io speeds.
geordiemp
Member
Cerny also said ps5 coud go faster but then said they capped at 2.23 Ghz, its a console with a power budget, PC parts can go crazy
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FunkMiller
Gold Member
This is how you be a Samurai, respect your clan, give the teardown honor to a true engineer, and not anyone, Yasuhiro Ootori, VP, Mechanical Design Department, Hardware Design Division at Sony Interactive Entertainment. Not some amateur youtuber expert-wannabe.
And really appreciate that it was represented in Japanese, makes it even more epic!
I just know there are some floating around here (cough Americans cough) who will be really annoyed that the tear down was targeted specifically not at westerners. Fair play to Sony for not being afraid to be themselves.
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Zathalus
Member
Sure, if the PS5 runs it at 2.23 Ghz then it can likely reach 60FPS native, not because the GPU is more powerful then the XSX, but because it is not running native 1800p on the PS4 Pro, as it is using image reconstruction.
At this moment all the evidence (from the Sony presentation no less) points to the PS5 using PS4 and PS4 Pro clock speeds when running previous generation games. I could of course be wrong, but that is what has been announced so far.
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