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[SportsFan581]

Except PCIe Gen3x4 is just as fast as PCIe Gen4x2.

There are some changes in the encode/decode algorithm that will be felt even if the entire pipe isn't being utilized. I assume MS still wanted access to PCIe4 encoding even at the lower speed. At the end of the day MS really doesn't need to be mindful of the market in regards to storage prices, only to the drives that are acceptable for PS5 use. That is the cost comparison, how much does it cost to add 1TB of storage to the consoles today? About the same thing. That will probably continue moving forward. I had hoped they would undercut to have a better value, but they do have to manufacture the casing and are using the tiny drive, which does come at a premium.

 

[kyliethicc]

IMO this is the entire reason XSS exists.

MS wants a cost effective way to stream next-gen games to phones that don't need the power of the XSX and so the servers will be far cheaper/easier to power/cool/etc.

I imagine if/when they outfit xCloud with XSX level hardware that will only be used for 4k streaming, and might cost user's more.

The will already be using the Series X chip for XCloud. It can run 4 Xbox One games per chip.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

I just know there are some floating around here (cough Americans cough) who will be really annoyed that the tear down was targeted specifically not at westerners. Fair play to Sony for not being afraid to be themselves.

Being an American I picked out like 5 words I understood and 100% didnt care, this was boss.

 

[geordiemp]

Well I've thought recently that the reason Xbox went with a 320 bit bus was dual purpose.

One was to increase bandwidth if 448 GB/s wasn't enough for them, but second was because Xbox One games use 5 GB of RAM. To run 4 games, as Series X chip can, you'd need 20 GB of memory. The natural bus for 20 GB is 320 bit, same as XSX. I bet the Xcloud chips have 20 GB instead of 16 GB.

But it seems obvious they just arrived at clock by just doing the math for 12 TF if they had 52 active CUs. They did the same thing with the Series S and its 4TF, and same with the One X with its 6 TFs.

AMD RX 6000 GPUs might end up being clocked differently for segmentation purposes if AMD wants certain higher priced cards to have better performance, in order to upsell customers. They did that with the 5000 series GPUs.

Your reasoning is fair for the server application, but they could of upped the clock on the box. The bus is definately desigend for the server application, the rumour being AMD PC parts are also 256 bus as they upped compression. But we wait AMD.

The PC parts will tell us allot more, there is interchangablility on process steps, you can use EUV or DUV and pay accordingly per wafer, but we will not know this unless AMD spills the beans .

 

[Imtjnotu]

The I/O block is inside the APU.

Did we not watch the same video?

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Well thats fucking great.....i was simply pointing out its not liquid cooling and im reply banned from the thread
Its Thermal Paste...abit a higher grade compared to the standard clag that went on the ps4 pros

I think the mod got confused as it was crowded there. Try reaching one to sort it out.

 

[MrS]

This is how you be a Samurai, respect your clan, give the teardown honor to a true engineer, and not anyone, Yasuhiro Ootori, VP, Mechanical Design Department, Hardware Design Division at Sony Interactive Entertainment. Not some amateur youtuber expert-wannabe.

I'm a big fan of Sony but the size of this console is just so funny. Like, it's absurd how big it is. It's bigger than my guy's torso ffs. I was crying laughing earlier when I saw this in the video. Feel bad for the couriers who have to deliver shitloads of these gargantuan machines around the world by the million.

 

[BatSu]

This is how you be a Samurai, respect your clan, give the teardown honor to a true engineer, and not anyone, Yasuhiro Ootori, VP, Mechanical Design Department, Hardware Design Division at Sony Interactive Entertainment. Not some amateur youtuber expert-wannabe.

And really appreciate that it was represented in Japanese, makes it even more epic!

 

[Bo_Hazem]

That's fan-fucking-tastic.

 

[Tripolygon]

PS5 CU are possibly bigger than Series X. Or maybe something else in the SoC is taking a good bit of space. IO, extra cache maybe?

 

[ethomaz]

Did we not watch the same video?

The video doesn't show the I/O controller because it is inside the APU.

 

[Three Jackdaws]

Really happy they've added dust collector feature into the PS5, very conveniant. However I am curious how it actually works? I know silly question.

 

[Crazychipmunx]

John Lineman hinting again that people will be surprised by Ps5 performance "in a good way".

 

[nosseman]

Cerny said they could go higher but it was breaking the game logic.

That sounds silly.

My guess to why they "settled" for 2,23Ghz - Any higher and it would throttle even more (measured in %) and developers would have a hard time knowing just how much power they got in some situations.

 

[kyliethicc]

There are some changes in the encode/decode algorithm that will be felt even if the entire pipe isn't being utilized. I assume MS still wanted access to PCIe4 encoding even at the lower speed. At the end of the day MS really doesn't need to be mindful of the market in regards to storage prices, only to the drives that are acceptable for PS5 use. That is the cost comparison, how much does it cost to add 1TB of storage to the consoles today? About the same thing. That will probably continue moving forward. I had hoped they would undercut to have a better value, but they do have to manufacture the casing and are using the tiny drive, which does come at a premium.

I doubt the Xbox cards will ever drop in price.

Look at this Seagate Xbox One USB SSD. Its still $200 for 1 TB. And it slow. Only good thing is its not required for Xbox One expansion. Unlike the Series X, which requires their expensive proprietary drive.

Buy Seagate Game Drive for Xbox SSD - Microsoft Store

Accelerate installation and load times for your Xbox One games with this sleek external solid state drive.

www.microsoft.com

And to be honest, Xbox could have just used larger form factor drives, but they didn't want to, which made the expansion card cost more than would otherwise. They didn't care, they want control of the user's options. Same reason why Xbox One HDDs were not user replaceable, unlike PS4 and PS3.

 

[IntentionalPun]

The will already be using the Series X chip for XCloud. It can run 4 Xbox One games per chip.

And I'm saying I think they'll go XSS first before eventually getting to XSX level.

I'm aware of the reports about them upgrading to XSX, but they all came out before XSS was even confirmed.. I think their plans differ from the reports earlier this year.

 

[geordiemp]

Sure, if the PS5 runs it at 2.23 Ghz then it can likely reach 60FPS native, not because the GPU is more powerful then the XSX, but because it is not running native 1800p on the PS4 Pro, as it is using image reconstruction.

At this moment all the evidence (from the Sony presentation no less) points to the PS5 using PS4 and PS4 Pro clock speeds when running previous generation games. I could of course be wrong, but that is what has been announced so far.

Sony did same with ps4 pro, and every ps4 game I played ran in boost mode anyway. They just covering their arses in a litigation world.

Also Sekiro was not confimed to be using checkerboard on pro, DF could not work it out.

Anyway, whatever caps are in last gen titles for both consoles, hopefully we get patches and updates for everyone if third party play nice.

 

[Metroiddarks]

This is how you be a Samurai, respect your clan, give the teardown honor to a true engineer, and not anyone, Yasuhiro Ootori, VP, Mechanical Design Department, Hardware Design Division at Sony Interactive Entertainment. Not some amateur youtuber expert-wannabe.

And really appreciate that it was represented in Japanese, makes it even more epic!

I agree an engineer with real experience in the field > engineer youtuber > youtuber.

 

[kyliethicc]

That sounds silly.

My guess to why they "settled" for 2,23Ghz - Any higher and it would throttle even more (measured in %) and developers would have a hard time knowing just how much power they got in some situations.

Cerny literally said they had to cap it at 2.23 GHz due to logic issues. I doubt he'd lie.

 

[kretos]

I guess Xbox's response to Sony's teardown video?

at least they're trying, maybe one day they will forget and stop having nightmares about the ps4 used games instructions video

 

[ethomaz]

PS5 CU are possibly bigger than Series X. Or maybe something else in the SoC is taking a good bit of space. IO, extra cache maybe?

I believe the crash scrubbers and custom I/O complex are the added stuff on PS5.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

I'm a big fan of Sony but the size of this console is just so funny. Like, it's absurd how big it is. It's bigger than my guy's torso ffs. I was crying laughing earlier when I saw this in the video. Feel bad for the couriers who have to deliver shitloads of these gargantuan machines around the world by the million.

Closer in size to fat PS3 though, so you can place it horizontally with ease.

 

[DForce]

Listening to the 1 Million Followers Special Stream.

John said he has heard a lot of good things about the PS5 from developers and people are going to be surprised...in a good way.

 

[ethomaz]

That sounds silly.

My guess to why they "settled" for 2,23Ghz - Any higher and it would throttle even more (measured in %) and developers would have a hard time knowing just how much power they got in some situations.

Silly?

Cerny said that himself.

"The benefits of this strategy are quite large.

Running a GPU at 2 GHz was looking like an unreachable target with the old fixed frequency strategy.

With this new paradigm we're able to run way over that in fact we have to cap the GPU frequency at 2.23 GHz so that we can guarantee that the on chip logic operates properly."

Transcribe - The Road to PS5 - Mark Cerny's a deep dive into the PlayStation 5 - - The Road to Next Gen Ludens

Thank you Jim. There will be lots of chances later on this year to look at the PlayStation 5 games.Today I want to talk a bit about our goals for the PlayStation 5 hardware and how they influenced the development of the console.

playstationvr.hateblo.jp

 

[Tripolygon]

Listening to the 1 Million Followers Special Stream.

John said he has heard a lot of good things about the PS5 from developers and people are going to be surprised...in a good way.

Timestamp?

 

[kyliethicc]

I just know there are some floating around here (cough Americans cough) who will be really annoyed that the tear down was targeted specifically not at westerners. Fair play to Sony for not being afraid to be themselves.

Nah I'm American and I love it. Sony do their thing. same as 7 years ago.

Cerny 2013/2020 - Road to PS4/PS5
PS4/5 teardown 2013/2020 both by the same Japanese Sony hardware engineer.

I think its awesome. They've always just do it their way. Clean & cool presentation too.

 

[Imtjnotu]

The video doesn't show the I/O controller because it is inside the APU.

Maybe I'm thinking of the custom ssd controller. My bad

 

[IntentionalPun]

This is how you be a Samurai, respect your clan, give the teardown honor to a true engineer, and not anyone, Yasuhiro Ootori, VP, Mechanical Design Department, Hardware Design Division at Sony Interactive Entertainment. Not some amateur youtuber expert-wannabe.

Bo you are much more pleasant when you are just focused on Playstation, and not making snide references to Xbox. You also are more likely to not be banned from this thread lol

Why do so many people on both sides expend so much energy discussing a product they literally have zero plans to buy?

 

[Dolomite]

Bruh

 

[SportsFan581]

And to be honest, Xbox could have just used larger form factor drives, but they didn't want to, which made the expansion card cost more than would otherwise. They didn't care, they want control of the user's options. Same reason why Xbox One HDDs were not user replaceable, unlike PS4 and PS3.

It's believed that the custom Xbox drive breaks a few specifications regarding data access that would stop desktop drives from ever being an option. It was custom or nothing, but time will tell if that is the case or not.

 

[Lysandros]

At this point the Series X feels weird with 1825Mhz.

Considering fixed clocks, 16 more CU's, less extensive cooling system and smaller/cramped form factor compared to PS5, 1825Mhz is quite normal i think.

 

[Orky]

I doubt the Xbox cards will ever drop in price.



And to be honest, Xbox could have just used larger form factor drives, but they didn't want to, which made the expansion card cost more than would otherwise. They didn't care, they want control of the user's options. Same reason why Xbox One HDDs were not user replaceable, unlike PS4 and PS3.

tales from your ass. Why are you spreading FUD?

Jason Ronald on the expansion SSD: You'll see multiple options and different form factors and different sizes

Full interaction from the transcript:

717: XSX/S Storage, Yakuza Like A Dragon and Xbox Family Settings - Xbox Wire

00:00 What we are playing and Xbox News 12:31 Interview: Dave McCarthy, Xbox Family Settings app 27:11 More news and a closer look at the new consoles 41:52 Interview: Jason Ronald, Xbox Series X/S Storage 55:39 Interview: Yakuza Like A Dragon: Scott Strichart, SoA 1:17:10 More Xbox News & Wrap up

majornelson.com

Larry Hryb: Now, folks can buy these at most places. I know that we've talked about them. They're available for 219.99. That's the manufacturer's suggested retail price. Prices will vary around the world. Certainly Xbox One, Xbox Series X and Series S are launching in different countries. Check your local retailers. Another question I've seen is about partnering with Seagate. Tell us about that.

Jason Ronald: Yeah. We're really excited to partner with Seagate. As I mentioned before, this is really innovative bleeding edge technology. To be able to partner with an industry leader like Seagate, to be able to deliver a one terabyte expansion option on day one at launch is very exciting. We're continuing to listen to feedback from the community.
I think, over time, you'll see this is a category that's really critical to us. You'll see multiple options and different form factors and different sizes. But what was really important for us is that we had a simple easy to use option available day one. You can expect to see more options moving forward.

Larry Hryb: You see that right there. That's what you're going to be looking for. Again, I want to point out you don't need this. Out of the box, you've got plenty of storage for your games and quick resume as Jason said. It's only if maybe your Game Pass, you want to download all the games or many more of the games. We've got you covered there.

TL DR - There will be cheaper & bigger models/solutions in the years to come.
There will be cheaper options. But they just wanted to have something ready AT LAUNCH - day one.
On PS5 can you expand the storage at launch? NO! You can’t. Sony already confirmed that you will have to wait until next year before they can validate SSDs.

 

[kyliethicc]

Your reasoning is fair for the server application, but they could of upped the clock on the box. The bus is definately desigend for the server application, the rumour being AMD PC parts are also 256 bus as they upped compression. But we wait AMD.

The PC parts will tell us allot more, there is interchangablility on process steps, you can use EUV or DUV and pay accordingly per wafer, but we will not know this unless AMD spills the beans .

I don't think Microsoft cared if they could clock the Xbox chip higher. They clearly wanted to keep the PSU and box as small and compact as possible.

Just look at their approach to GPU clocks

One X 40 CUs @ 1.172 GHz = 6.0 TF
Series S 20 CUs @ 1.565 GHz = 4.0 TF
Series X 52 CUs @ 1.825 GHz = 12.1 TF

I doubt those are coincidental. Seems clear they pick clocks to hit TFs. Phil even said the goal for Series X was to double the One X, and they can market TFLOPs. So 6x2=12 lol.

 

[chilichote]

PS5 CU are possibly bigger than Series X. Or maybe something else in the SoC is taking a good bit of space. IO, extra cache maybe?

So 22mm², which we don't know what it is used for?

 

[Imtjnotu]

tales from your ass. Why are you spreading FUD?

Jason Ronald on the expansion SSD: You'll see multiple options and different form factors and different sizes

Full interaction from the transcript:

717: XSX/S Storage, Yakuza Like A Dragon and Xbox Family Settings - Xbox Wire

00:00 What we are playing and Xbox News 12:31 Interview: Dave McCarthy, Xbox Family Settings app 27:11 More news and a closer look at the new consoles 41:52 Interview: Jason Ronald, Xbox Series X/S Storage 55:39 Interview: Yakuza Like A Dragon: Scott Strichart, SoA 1:17:10 More Xbox News & Wrap up

majornelson.com

Larry Hryb: Now, folks can buy these at most places. I know that we've talked about them. They're available for 219.99. That's the manufacturer's suggested retail price. Prices will vary around the world. Certainly Xbox One, Xbox Series X and Series S are launching in different countries. Check your local retailers. Another question I've seen is about partnering with Seagate. Tell us about that.

Jason Ronald: Yeah. We're really excited to partner with Seagate. As I mentioned before, this is really innovative bleeding edge technology. To be able to partner with an industry leader like Seagate, to be able to deliver a one terabyte expansion option on day one at launch is very exciting. We're continuing to listen to feedback from the community.
I think, over time, you'll see this is a category that's really critical to us. You'll see multiple options and different form factors and different sizes. But what was really important for us is that we had a simple easy to use option available day one. You can expect to see more options moving forward.

Larry Hryb: You see that right there. That's what you're going to be looking for. Again, I want to point out you don't need this. Out of the box, you've got plenty of storage for your games and quick resume as Jason said. It's only if maybe your Game Pass, you want to download all the games or many more of the games. We've got you covered there.

TL DR - There will be cheaper & bigger models/solutions in the years to come.
There will be cheaper options. But they just wanted to have something ready AT LAUNCH - day one.
On PS5 can you expand the storage at launch? NO! You can’t. Sony already confirmed that you will have to wait until next year before they can validate SSDs.

Cerny said at the end of this year he expected ssds to match the speeds and we already have one

 

[BGs]

Ok, can you please provide some of those public information you are basing your assumptions on?
Just recently we were saying that heat was a function of power and from the PS5 video we now know that the power supply in PS5 is 350W vs 300W in the XSX. Assuming that both use more or less the same % of available power, why are you saying "you will have more problems with an XSX than with a PS5"?

Don't be offended, but I feel like you're kidding me. I think my messages are very clear. If you still don't understand each other, I'm very sorry but I don't have more time. All the information is on the respective websites of each console in video format.

 

[kyliethicc]

tales from your ass. Why are you spreading FUD?

Jason Ronald on the expansion SSD: You'll see multiple options and different form factors and different sizes

Full interaction from the transcript:

717: XSX/S Storage, Yakuza Like A Dragon and Xbox Family Settings - Xbox Wire

00:00 What we are playing and Xbox News 12:31 Interview: Dave McCarthy, Xbox Family Settings app 27:11 More news and a closer look at the new consoles 41:52 Interview: Jason Ronald, Xbox Series X/S Storage 55:39 Interview: Yakuza Like A Dragon: Scott Strichart, SoA 1:17:10 More Xbox News & Wrap up

majornelson.com

Larry Hryb: Now, folks can buy these at most places. I know that we've talked about them. They're available for 219.99. That's the manufacturer's suggested retail price. Prices will vary around the world. Certainly Xbox One, Xbox Series X and Series S are launching in different countries. Check your local retailers. Another question I've seen is about partnering with Seagate. Tell us about that.

Jason Ronald: Yeah. We're really excited to partner with Seagate. As I mentioned before, this is really innovative bleeding edge technology. To be able to partner with an industry leader like Seagate, to be able to deliver a one terabyte expansion option on day one at launch is very exciting. We're continuing to listen to feedback from the community.
I think, over time, you'll see this is a category that's really critical to us. You'll see multiple options and different form factors and different sizes. But what was really important for us is that we had a simple easy to use option available day one. You can expect to see more options moving forward.

Larry Hryb: You see that right there. That's what you're going to be looking for. Again, I want to point out you don't need this. Out of the box, you've got plenty of storage for your games and quick resume as Jason said. It's only if maybe your Game Pass, you want to download all the games or many more of the games. We've got you covered there.

TL DR - There will be cheaper & bigger models/solutions in the years to come.
There will be cheaper options. But they just wanted to have something ready AT LAUNCH - day one.
On PS5 can you expand the storage at launch? NO! You can’t. Sony already confirmed that you will have to wait until next year before they can validate SSDs.

Funny, Xbox say nothing about offering lower prices in the future.

Also, I'm not "spreading FUD" I said I PERSONALLY doubt they will drop in price. Its my opinion. Calm down.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Bo you are much more pleasant when you are just focused on Playstation, and not making snide references to Xbox. You also are more likely to not be banned from this thread lol

Why do so many people on both sides expend so much energy discussing a product they literally have zero plans to buy?

Because so many were demanding Sony to give this piece of beauty to amateur youtubers to tear it down. Guess what? It's more elegant, and much more plausible to give the honor to someone who's spent sweat and tears designing the thing instead of giving it to some click-baiting amateurs. We get to know one of the guys behind it, do we know that on Xbox? Only if you're googling it. It's a matter of paying respect for the people who put their hard time to make such a thing.

 

[Handy Fake]

PS5 CU are possibly bigger than Series X. Or maybe something else in the SoC is taking a good bit of space. IO, extra cache maybe?

Cerny mentioned larger CUs in his Road to PS5 video, I just presumed he meant that it was standard with the new RDNA.

Edit: I mean I'm assuming that these larger CUs are standard on both PS5 and XBSX.
Now I'm intrigued.

 

[chilichote]

I believe the crash scrubbers and custom I/O complex are the added stuff on PS5.

The I/O is not in the APU, it is separate.

 

[jimbojim]

I/o blocked looked roughly the same size as the apu die

The I/O block is inside the APU.

The video doesn't show the I/O controller because it is inside the APU.

Did we not watch the same video?

As ethomaz stated, it's the part of the APU ( flash controller is other thing ), easy to google or just to watch Road To PS5 again :

 

[ethomaz]

The I/O is not in the APU, it is separate.

It is in the APU.

 

[kyliethicc]

Rally happy they've added dust collector feature into the PS5, very conveniant. However I am curious how it actually works? I know silly question.

Once a year, you gotta suck your console. Keep it clean. Respect her.

 

[Tripolygon]

So 22mm², which we don't know what it is used for?

Correct.

 

[chilichote]

It is in the APU.

No, and it's even explicitly shown in the teardown video.

 

[jimbojim]

The I/O is not in the APU, it is separate.

It's not separate. Look at the diagram above

 

[ethomaz]

No, and it's even explicitly shown in the teardown video.

Are you high?

The teardown doesn't show the I/O controller.

The I/O controller is part of the APU silicon.

 

[Insane Metal]

John Lineman hinting again that people will be surprised by Ps5 performance "in a good way".

Where?

 

[chilichote]

It's not separate. Look at the diagram above

The diagram is irrelevant, watch the teardown video.

 

[kyliethicc]

And I'm saying I think they'll go XSS first before eventually getting to XSX level.

I'm aware of the reports about them upgrading to XSX, but they all came out before XSS was even confirmed.. I think their plans differ from the reports earlier this year.

To run 4 Xbox One games from 1 chip is different than to run 1 next gen Xbox game from 1 chip. I think they will use both for different uses. You're likely correct too. But the Series S chip can't run 4 One games at once, and Xcloud is mainly Xbox One games. And the stream will only need to be around 720p, so they can get the most bang for the server's buck with the X chip.